* Posts by Kebabbert

808 publicly visible posts • joined 22 Jul 2009

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Sun-Oracle x86 server combo tops the SAP charts

Kebabbert

Reason HP uses only 128GB RAM

whereas Solaris uses 256GB RAM, is because then the HP machine can use faster PC2-6400 memory. If HP wanted 256GB RAM, then they could have only used slower RAM. Therefore HP opted for faster RAM, but smaller size. HP also uses 2.8GHz CPUs.

http://www.c0t0d0s0.org/archives/6194-Some-thoughts-about-the-SAP-8-socket-benchmark-at-HP-and-Sun.html

HP is 7 unit machine. Sun is 4 unit machine.

SUN uses slower PC2-5300 RAM sticks and 2.6GHz CPUs and is still 25% faster on SAP. That is because the cores have 99% utilization under Solaris. On HPs Linux machine, the cores are only 87% utiliized, which shows that Linux has problems handling many cores well, on a single machine. On large clusters (which is basically a network with several computers), Linux performs well.

SAP white papers

Linux:

http://download.sap.com/download.epd?context=40E2D9D5E00EEF7CCDB0588464276DE2F0B2EC7F6C1CB666ECFCA652F4AD1B4C

Solaris:

http://download.sap.com/download.epd?context=B1FEF26EB0CC34664FC7E80B933FCCAC80DD88CBFAF48C8D126FB65D80D09E988311DE75E0922A14

If you have enough memory to cache everything, then you will not gain anything from adding more memory. Apparentely, HP saw that 128GB RAM was faster than 256GB RAM. HP has the resources to add another 128GB RAM if they wanted to. And they know how to tweak their system to get the most performance. HP got the fastest result with 128GB ram. Because the memory was faster.

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There are benches with equal amount of RAM on both Solaris and Linux, and those benches confirms that Solaris machine is faster: Compare SAP benchmarks 2009035 and 2009030 to see that.

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Regarding Sun T5440 being slower. I have no problems with that. The Niagara is not best on all work loads. If benches show that Niagara is slower, then there is nothing to argue about. Instead, choose SUNs 4 unit which delivers 25% more performance with Solaris, than Linux.

The fun thing is that I dont argue about benches. Whereas there are people here, that refuses to accept benchmarks and white papers. They say "the benches are cherry picked by SUN, or created by SUN to show the strength" etc. The fun thing is, there are so many benches where SUN is fastest. Has SUN created ALL benches? TPC-C, specint, etc? I dont argue about benches. Hard numbers are hard numbers. There are people that wont accept hard numbers. There is one moron that says something like "in MY OPINION the Niagara is slower than Power6, despite benches showing the opposite, I have seen those benches, yes. But in my opinion". Then you can say "in my opinion that 2m guy is shorter than the 1.7m guy" - equally weird.

IBM punts Linux-only mainframes

Kebabbert

Software emulation is fast enough?

Tom Lehman, founder of TurboHercules (a Mainframe emulator that runs on x86) writes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_emulator

"...we can run a reasonably sized load (800MIPS with our standard package). If the machine in question is larger than that, we can scale to 1600MIPS with our quad Nehalem based package and we have been promised an 8 way Nehalem EX based machine early next year that should take us to the 3200MIPS mark. Anything bigger than that is replicated by a collection of systems."

So if you have a need of something like 3000 MIPS, then you should use a x86 server and emulate a Mainframe in software.

How much does a cheap Mainframe cost? 1 million USD? What is the performance? 100 MIPS?

How much will a PC with Nehalem EX cost? A couple of thousand USD? What is the performance? 3.200 MIPS

You make your choice.

IBM thinks outside the box with containerized data centres

Kebabbert

Original idea from ibm. NOT.

Wow, I am surprised that IBM didnt down talked SUNs data container first, and only some years later introduced their copy claiming that IBM always thought this was a good idea. As usual. Like IBM does with many slower cores in their newer CPU. It was a bad thing when SUN did it and now, when IBM does it, it is the best thing on earth. Earlier, IBM said that few fast cores are much better than many slow cores. :o)

IBM shows off Power7 HPC monster

Kebabbert

uarch

In your rush to bad mouth my post youve managed to confuse yourself w.r.t to my text. I can explain that again, just for you. I hope others dont have the same problems understanding my text, as you seem to have. And, please dont spread IBM's lies, ok?

When IBM states that the Power6 has ~250GB/sec bandwidth, it is clearly wrong as I have showed. I will explain that again just for you. IBM are lying or ignorant about CPUs. Here goes. Again.

YOU CAN NOT ADD ALL BANDWIDTH, BAND WIDTH DOES NOT ADD UP!!!!

Got that? If there is a bottle neck on 10GB/sec, then the chip will never be faster than 10GB/sec! That is easy to see, if you have studied higher math. There is a famous theorem in Discrete math, that says "Max Flow == Min Cut". Very sloppily, it says that the maximum flow (bandwidth) achievable, equals the bottle neck. Modulo all details.That is clearly obviously true. Just think over it a while, and try to apply common sense. Or study the proof. Here is more information on this theorem. So please, dont go and spread lies about Power7 reaches 590GBps, because that is simply not true. If you have not studied higher math, then just trust me. Or ask a mathematician on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max-flow_min-cut_theorem

Clearly, you have not understood anything of that I write, because you claim that I am wrong. Study some math, and then reread my post?

Regarding bad mouthing the competition, clearly you have not been here for too long. Do you know what lies the IBMers say about SPARC Niagara??? That pisses me off. I dont mind if IBM's Power is faster, but I hate lies and FUD. If they can show that Power is faster than Niagara with benchmarks, I am quiet. I will not say anything. But when benches clearly shows that Niagara is faster in many different aspects, and STILL they lie about it, that pisses me off.

Fair should be fair, and no lies, eh? Lies pisses me off. So, please, dont spread lies about Power7's bandwidth. As long as they continue to spread FUD and lies here, I will do my utmost to dispel the FUD and post benches showing the truth. For instance, the lies about Power7's bandwidth. Or the lies about Mainframe CPUs, when they probably loose to a fast Nehalem. Or the lies about Mainframe is able to consolidate 1500 x86 servers, when the x86 servers are in fact, idling. etc. etc. etc etc These lies pisses me off. If the lies were true, I would shut up. I mean it.

Kebabbert

Too powerhungry. Legacy techniques

tom 99

"Kebabbert, you need to educate a bit more before posting such a mess." ....I have double Masters, one in math and one in comp sci, algo theory. What is your education?

"Clock frequency has little in common with CPU performance in this case. Single Power7 core is faster than single Power6 core, because P7 has out of order processing." ...Wow, isnt it what I have been saying all the time?! That Clock frequency has little to do with performance! But stupid IBM frantically claims that clock frequency is everything, and that 1.4GHz Niagara is slow compared to 4.7GHz Power6. OTOH SUN claims that clock speed has nothing to do with performance, and for that they get bashed by IBM, all the time. I am glad that you and me share the same point of view on this, and that IBM are wrong when they equate clock speed with performance. A counter proof is Niagara.

"Other assumptions of yours are wrong as well. Reading Sun whitepapers is not good enough." ... As far I can tell, nothing in your post holds for closer scrutiny. I am most probably more educated than you. And we both agree that clock speed does not equal performance, contrary to what IBM states. So what do you mean with "other assumptions are wrong as well"? Nothing is wrong in my post. Could elaborate a bit more, instead of FUDing?

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Anonysmous Coward, 30Nov 04:52

"Kebabbert, you haven't shown anything. You just repeat hyperbole from others. Why don't you come back with 2009 numbers. No one cares about z990 vs pentium 4 from 2003 anymore." ...What have I not shown? I can post this link again from year 2003, just for you

http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-390@vm.marist.edu/msg18587.html

Here we see that an Linux expert thinks that Mainframe 1MIPS equals 4MHz x86. So 1000MIPS equals 4GHz x86, according to him. If he lies, please point out his lies.

Regarding "updated numbers", yes I totally agree with you. As I had said earlier, I expect a fast Nehalem to be compete with any Mainframe CPU. We see that 1MIPS == 4MHz x86. That is for Pentium 4, which is dog slow. Now, core2duo and Nehalem is much more efficient clock for clock. I expect a 2GHz Nehalem to totally crush a P4@2GHz. One 1MHz x86 has changed a lot since year 2003. One MHz is maybe 5-10 faster, today.

OTOH, the IBM MIPS hasnt changed at all. 1MIPS from year 2003, compares to 1MIPS today. Mainframe CPUs are faster today. Instead of 10.000MIPS, they maybe do 50.000MIPS today. But it is the same metric.

This means that the numbers from year 2003, "1MIPS == 4MHz" must be modified. One MHz is 5-10 faster today, let us be generous to IBM and say only 4 times faster. Then the new numbers will be "1MIPS == 1MHz". As the coming Nehalem with 8 cores at 3GHz will correspond to 8 cores x 3GHz = 24GHz we see that it corresponds to 24.000Mips. Get a quad socket mobo, and you will have 4 such Nehalems giving the equivalent of 96.000Mips. How much does a Mainframe giving 100.000MIPS cost? 10 Million USD? Compare that to a quad socket Nehalem PC. Maybe 5.000 USD? Buy a couple of those PC and you have good redundancy too.

So I totally agree with you. Those numbers need to be updated to show the new x86 CPUs. They are many times faster than the old P4.

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Lastly, power7 sucks if you look at how much work it does per watt. Legacy constructions are like that: high Hz, small cache. Even the legacy constructed Fujitsu SPARC Venus is twice as efficient than a Power7. With all IBMs resources, they couldnt do anything better than this. Just like Microsoft: Windows sucks. Catastrophic.

Kebabbert

Holey Moley

800 Watt?? Are you kidding? Earlier I asked if the Power6 consumed 500 Watt. But Jesper Friedman told me I was totally off. I wonder how much off, I was? I wonder if the Power7 and Power6 consumes almost same amount of Watt? They decreased the Hz on the Power7, so the cores seems to be slower than a Power6 core. Instead you have 8 of the slower cores. This reminds me of something... Hmm... Use more cores, but slower.... Hmmm... No I cant recall. But I know IBM and you guys here, downtalked CPUs with many slower cores. Few fast cores is how you do it, IBM told us. So, where is the new IBM dual core CPU with 7GHz? Or has IBM changed direction to follow other chip manufacturers who use many, but slower cores?

But the stated 1 TFlops for 8 cores is impressive. I would be more impressed if IBM did it using less wattage. The problem is not build a fast CPU. The problem is to build a fast CPU abiding constraints. If you have unlimited money and unlimited power and unlimited everything - then you can build a fast cpu. That is not the problem. The beautiful thing is to build a fast cpu under heavy constraints. To make beautiful solutions. If you are not trying to be clever, you just throw more resources and money and power at it, instead. That is not sophisticated solution, but a naive solution. I wonder how this CPU fares in a mainframe. As I have shown earlier, the mainframe CPUs are really slow and sucks, as 1MIPS == 4MHz x86. IBM states this CPU does 1TFlops. I want to see benches proving that. Or is IBM lying, as usual?

I would like to see the benches on this CPU. Then maybe I will say, just like the rest of you, "no, it is IBM that benched that, so you can not trust the benches. The real numbers are totally different. This is a cherry picked benchmark and not to be trusted". Just as you guys say, when I post benches for Niagara.

A question: earlier IBM stated the Power6 has 250GB/sec bandwidth. Now IBM states the Power6 has 100GB/sec bandwidth? Or was it Power7? So what is the true bandwidth? 250GB/sec as earlier claimed? Or is it 100GB/sec?

Kebabbert

800W for a package of 4 cpus?

After rereading the text it seems that 800W is for a package of four Power7 cpus? Ok, that is much better. 200W per Power7 is actually acceptable. Then the Power6 is maybe in the same vicinity, around 200-250Watt. Which shows that my question was off with a factor 2. Not 500W. Which shows that Jesper Friedman was right, and my question was wrong.

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1Tflops for 4 Power7, equals 250GFlops/cpu. This is twice as fast as Fujitsus Venus Sparc CPU which is reported at 128GFlops. However, the Venus consumes power "a third of what Intel Chip consumes"

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137342/fujitsu-unveils-world-s-fastest-cpu

If Intel Chip consumes 150W, then one eight core Venus consumes 50Watt. This is only 25% of Power7 power consumption.

And the Venus is also lower clocked. If Venus uses 2GHz vs Power7 uses 4GHz, we see that if Venus is clocked to 4GHz, Venus will produce equally many flop, clock for clock as the Power7. Venus will then produce 256Gflops, just like the Power7. But the Venus consumes much less power. Hence, the Sparc is at least twice as efficient as Power, probably a lot more.

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Because at high clock speeds, you depend upon the work load fit to into the cache. Otherwise you are smoked. The more Hz, the more you are punished when your data is not in the cache because there will be large differences between CPU speed and RAM speed. If a CPU runs at 10GHz, and if RAM runs at normal 1GHz, the cpu will wait 9GHz for data from RAM. This means 10% utilization. Therefore, it is better to have lower clocked, because then you will not be punished as much by cache misses, and you will have much better utilization. It is dumb to try to ramp up the Hz, which IBM does. The cache misses are far too penalizing. Better to use a cpu which is equally clocked as RAM, when we talk about utilization and power consumption. If you have bad utiilization, you have to use maybe 200W or so to do work which a lower clocked CPU can do with better utilization and efficiency. The Power architecture sucks at utilization and efficiency, because it relies on high clocks.

Of course you could change direction for Sparc and throw more power at a SPARC chip, but that is not wise. There is a border where you can optimize performance vs power. SPARC is highly optimized for that. IBM optimizes highly for performance, that is all they care about. Which is evidenced by, for instance TPC-C. That is just a matter of getting high numbers. Dont matters how much resources are used. That fits IBM well: "No constraints". But there is a larger challenge to abide to constraints and still win.

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Power consumption is a major constraint and hurdle in large supercomputers. IBM was dumb to put four Power7 into a package which consumes 800W. Compare that to rank no 6 today in Top500. Rank no 6 is Blue Gene, which uses 800MHz PowerPC. How much power does this 800MHz CPU use? 50Watt? This shows it is possible to achieve high performance without using much power. I wonder if there will be large supercomputers using the Power7 package, because you would need a nuclear plant to drive that thing. Better to use lower power consuming CPUs in large supercomputers. That is why I doubt we will see large clusters of Power7.

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However, IBM stated that the Power6 has 250GB/Sec bandwidth. And now, in this article it seems that Power7 has 100GB/sec bandwidth? Has the Power7 lower bandwidth than the Power6? Why is that?

Sun VirtualBox gets live migration

Kebabbert

VB is nice

I really like VB, it is simple and fast. And the install file is 70MB, quite slim I think. How large is VMware? How many OS does VMware support?

The biggest advantage with VB, is that it the biggest player that supports the most OS out there. There might be some small open source projects that supports more, but I doubt that. Also, how many features do they lack compared to VB?

People have run on VB: haikuos, reactos, plan9, mac OS X (with some hack and a OS key), os/2, freebsd, openbsd, etc etc

Other things I like: 64 bits. Supports DX9 and OpenGL (although experimental support). Multicpu to the guests. etc etc

Drobo restrings boxes to double-up product range

Kebabbert

Is your data safe?

Drobo seems nice, but is your data safe? According to CERN, hardware raid often corrupts data without telling you! You will never notice, because the h/w didnt notice it.

http://storagemojo.com/2007/09/19/cerns-data-corruption-research/

Here is more on the same problem.

http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1317400

It turns out the only cure is ZFS, which detects such problems, and repairs them.

Droboman expects a 3TB drive from somewhere soon

Kebabbert

Too big drives

A modern drive has 30% of it's surface dedicated to error correction code, and still there will be errors that can not be repaired or even detected. If you read specs on a new drive, you will see something like "1 irrecoverable error in 10^14 bits". With yesterdays small drives, you didnt read to many bits to reach 10^14 of them, and hence hit an irrecoverable error. Todays large large raids, with much higher bandwidth, you will frequently hit irrecoverable errors. The error rate has been constant throughout the years, but the capacity has increased much more.

What to do? Use error correcting ZFS which is designed to handle these kind of problems. CERN did some research on hardware raid, and they showed errors that h/w could not detect. ZFS would have detected this.

O/S bloat: What's the cure?

Kebabbert

matt_f

Yes that is right. Solaris Zones does that. Solaris fires up lots of virtual machines: Solaris 8, Solaris 9, Solaris 10, Linux and only one kernel is running: The highly scalable Solaris kernel. Each VM requires 40MB RAM or so. One guy started 1000 VMs in 1GB RAM, it was dog slow, but it worked. So the Zones are extremely light weight.

SAP slams Oracle Sun's control of Java

Kebabbert

Modernize Java??

"Also, that the JCP moves too slowly to modernize Java..."

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SUN has explicitly declared that Java will evolve slowly and thoughtfully. The rapid development will be in the libraries, but the Java language will be slowly developed. That is a good thing for Enterprise systems that are used many years. If SUN would add every new hot feature, in a couple of years, Java would be bloated and the backwards compatibility would be very bad. And after several years, it turned out that the hot new feature, was in fact bad.

No, I say that Enterprise software must evolve slow and thougthfully. Rapid evolvement is a bad thing in Entreprise environment. Often, the systems will run for many many years. You can not force your customers to upgrade all the time, by ending support. That is not Enterprise.

Sun files $120m loss on the hush

Kebabbert

Isnt it funny

how bad everyone wants the "inferior" SUN tech and SUN people? Linux is desperate to get ZFS. IBM copies DTrace with its ProbeVue. The Niagara with it's "slow" cores, crush the IBM Power6+ which is three times higher clocked. And the IBM Mainframe CPUs are really dog slow, as 1 MIPS == 4x86 MHz according to Linux/Mainframe experts. I expect a high clocked Nehalem beat the shit out of a IBM Mainframe CPU in terms of processing power. But the Nehalem is like 1000USD vs 10.000USD(?) IBM Mainframe CPU, or is the IBM Mainframe CPU more like 100.000USD? And for the IBM Power570 servers, one SUN T5440 is three times as fast as one P570 in Siebel v8. But the P570 costs 413.000USD vs T5440 which costs 76.000USD.

I dont get it, why do people pay loads of money for over priced slow IBM hardware? Ok if you got good performance, but no, youre not.

Sun, Fujitsu crank Sparc64-VII clocks

Kebabbert

Mattie Pattie Laddie

When I say "Ive heard that you need an IQ of 70 to be able to breath", you can not compare it to when I claim the Niagara does not suffer from a small cache and therefore it is slow. Because, regarding Niagara, I have read articles, and I know CPU architecture and computer hardware architecture. I even have one of my M Sc in that subject! Regarding nervous systems, I dont know anything, I dont have a degree in it, I have not studied it. It is a big difference if you hear something from a random guy, or if you have studied articles and have a M Sc degree.

But maybe you fail to see the difference? Maybe that explains why you can claim something weird as "in my opinion the niagara suffers from a small cache" - when at the same time, it's design is from a theoretical view point superior to legacy constructed CPUs as Power6 which needs to fit the work load into it's cache. And also, the benches and real life testimonies show Niagara is extremely fast on certain work loads. So how can it be so fast, if it supposedly suffers from a small cache? Can you answer me that? You dont see the discrepancy? You claim it is slow, but benches and hard numbers and theoretical investigations prove the opposite. You dont think at all? Not very academic, eh?

Kebabbert

Mattie Pattie Laddie

Look, if Niagara would indeed suffer from a small cache, then it would show in it's performance. It would be slow and it wouldnt be able to take many world records, nor beat IBM Power6 cpu. But hard facts tell that Niagara is extremely fast on some work loads, it is fastest in the world. So how can it be your opinion that the Niagara is slow then and suffers from a small cache? If a guy is tallest in the world, beating everyone else, do you claim that "in my opinion he is short"? Could you please explain this?

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Regarding the car analogy, the Niagara is slow on single threaded loads. But it has many threads. Whereas the Power6 has few, fast threads. This means that Niagara can handle large loads with many threads, whereas Power6 can not. Power6 is like a Porsche, able to transport 2 persons fast, in 10 minutes. The Niagara is like a slow bus, able to transport 100 persons in 30 minutes. Which one do you think will transport 10,000 persons fastest? This is also confirmed by the benches.

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Regarding the IQ. I have only heard it. I dont claim it to be true.

Kebabbert

@Moron

Look, you can not claim that "in my opinion that 2m guy is shorter than the 1.5m guy". The hard facts shows, the metric shows that the 2m guy is... 0.5m taller! You can not argue against metrics and hard facts! You can not have an opinion contradicting the metric, unless you are a true moron. "I see that you have truly black hair, but in my opinion you are blonde"???

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Regarding your car analogy, I totally agree with you. The Niagara is slow on few threads and small loads. But it absolutely beats the shit out of anything when it comes to big loads, thanks to it's many threads. The 5GHz Power6 is like a fast Porsche, able to transport 2 persons very fast, in 10 minutes. And the 1.4GHz Niagara is like a large slow bus able to transport 100 persons, in 30 minutes.

Now I ask you; which choice is the best to transport 10.000 persons? For small loads, the Porsche is clearly fastest. For large loads the Niagara finishes first, despite being slower than the Porsche. It is a fact that the Niagara has many threads, and it is a fact that the Power6 has few threads. And ergo, the Niagara wins for large loads. It's throughput is extreme.

Therefore, for small loads, single threaded things, use the Power6. For large loads, where extreme throughput is needed, use the Niagara. The niagara is slow on single threaded things, everyone knows that. SUN says so, too.

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Regarding that you need 70 IQ to be able to breath, well as I said - that was something Ive HEARD. Maybe it was wrong. So what? Ive HEARD it. I do not claim it to be true.

Kebabbert

Dumbest thing Ive heard in a while

"In my opinion, the current Niagara CPUs have too little cache, and I believe it adversely affects their performance."

Seriously, this must be the dumbest thing you ever posted. I mean it. Why? Now I motivate why.

Jesus Mattie...

Anyway, if the Niagara has too little cache or not, IS NOT AN OPINION! What does benches and real life say? If the 1.4GHz Niagara beats the shit out of 5GHz CPUs, then how the hell can your opinion be that the Niagara suffer from a too small cache??? It is like saying to the fastest car in the world "in my opinion Niagara car is not fast. I admit there are no faster cars, and the Power6 car is slower in several benches, but in my opinion Niagara car is slower". If the Niagara car scores higher, it is not an question of an opinion. If one guy lifts 100kg and the other guy lifts 50kg, then you can not say that "in my opinion the first guy is weaker, I admit that hard benchmarks show that the first guy lifts more, but in my opinion the first guy is weaker". You also say about a man that is 2meter long "in my opinion he is shorter than that 1.70meter guy", yes?

Is this dumb or is is just dumb? Seriously, this must be the dumbest thing Ive heard in a while. I mean it. "in my opinion...". Jesus. I almost dont know what to say. Mattie Pattie Laddie, do you have a large machine connected to you, saying beep, beeep and wosh wosh every ten second or so?

Ive heard that you need an IQ of at least 70 to be able to breath on your own.

Kebabbert

@Adam 61

And you blame ME for being boring and sounding like a broken record??? What small weird mushrooms have you eaten lately?

Have you never wondered why I write that over and over again? No? I thought so. I can explain to you that Mattie Pattie Laddie has not yet understood the Niagara and he still thinks it suffers from a small cache. Until he understands, I will continue lecture him. I agree he has a very thick forehead, and it takes lots of time to reach his brain, but I will succeseed. I am not the one who turns away from impossible missions!

So I suggest you tell Mattie Pattie Laddie to stop being so boring and stop sounding like a broken record. Until then, you will read my reaction on his action, here. I just react on Mattie Pattie.

Kebabbert

Mattie Pattie Nobbie

Just quit it. You have proven numerous times you know nothing about CPUs. Do you still claim that the Niagara suffers from a too small a cache, despite me explaining too you umpteen times that Niagara doesnt need a large cache? Shall we continue with that discussion about Niagaras cache, or have you at last understood?

So, tell me again why the Niagara is so slow and why it suffers from a too small cache. And motivate thoroughly. And explain why the Power6 is faster than the Niagara on server work loads, where the work load dont fit into Power6 cache so the Power6 cache starts to thrash, swapping data in and out all the time. Go ahead.

IBM: Power7 to rollout throughout 2010

Kebabbert

Jesper Frimann

Even if I dont agree with you, I enjoy discussing with you. Because you are well educated and no troll. You back your claims up with links, and we can discuss around your links, and your explanations. That is academic. Matt Bryant, OTOH, just posts his opinions, which he has explained. He explained that "in his opinion, the Niagara suffers from a small cache". Well, it is a difference between facts and opinion. Never should you try to disguise your opinions as facts, as Matt Bryant does. You distinguish between your opinions and facts. I wish more people discussed like you do.

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"...Sorry no points for quoting BMSEER, this is SUN FUD central..." You mean that because BMSEER posted this benchmark, the benchmark is not valid? Why is it not valid? Is is a fake? Has BMSEER made up the numbers? You mean the true numbers are maybe half of what is reported? Or? I dont understand. Even if IBM reported a benchmark, I would accept it. I dont expect IBM to lie about hard numbers?

So, what do you think the true Niagara numbers are for string pattern matching? BMSEER reports that one 1.4GHz Niagara achieves 24.6Gbit/sec and two 3.2GHz Cell achieves 3.8 GBit/sec. Do you mean in reality one Niagara reaches maybe... 1GBit/sec and the two Cell reaches 50Gbit/sec? Because BMSEER is from SUN, he is lying about the true numbers? Could you elaborate on his lies? Exactly which number is a fake?

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"....Again this is a cherry picked benchmark...." So what? Every solution will have it's strength and weaknesses. If IBM picks a benchmark that shows Power6 strengths, I would be dumb if I dismissed it as fake? I mean, the numbers are real. The Power6 got that performance. Why would I dismiss the numbers? I am trying to show that Niagara is not as slow as FUDers say. There are things where the Niagara is fastest on the planet. Of course, the Niagara is not fastest on everything, it has it's weaknesses. But is also has it's strengths. But when people try to show the Niagara's strong sides, you just dismiss them. About Power6, I know it has it's strong sides, I dont dispute about that. But people FUDs about Niagara has no strong sides at all, "it is just a weak CPU in general". I say "Wrong! It has strong sides". But they are just dismissed. I dont dismiss the Power6 strong sides, but you dismiss the Niagara's strong sides? Fair eh?

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"...What our good friend BMSEER has done is to point to the place where Cell doesn't perform well on pattern matching. Actually for small dictonaries a single cell, using it's SPE's will do around 41 Gbit, which is 1.7 times what the Niagara processor will do..." Ok, it looks like one 3.2GHz CELL achieves 70% better score on small dictionaries. If I were you, I would have said "no, it can not be true, because IBM published that paper". But I do not. I accept that number. Instead I think that small dictionaries shows that CELL doesnt scale to larger realistic loads when the performance drops to 1.9 GBit/sec, that is 96% drop of performance, which in my eyes is terrible. And besides, who is interested in small loads? I mean, all realistic true life server workloads are large loads. Who is interested in small things that no one can use? Even the Power6 would perform well, if the load was sufficiently small enough to fit into it's cache. But CELL performs good only on small loads, not interesting for real life. Whereas Niagara has again proven that it does not need a large cache to perform superior on large heavy server loads. Mattie Pattie Laddie, here you see again that despite having a small cache, the Niagara does not suffer. Instead it smokes all compettion on large realistic loads.

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"...So again this is a case of not telling the whole story, which is that For small dictonaries Cell is faster for large ones Niagara is faster. And that there is quite a good reason for this, the two processors are targeted at different markeds/workloads..."

But who is interested in small loads? The difficult part is large loads, real life, realistic loads. And which solution should you choose then? For real life, realistic loads, you should choose Niagara. Crystal clear. Niagara wins again. If you have small loads, that no one runs in real life, then choose Cell. Or choose Niagara and you can use it for small loads AND large loads.

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James Billingham

"...Sun ref. states CELL has 8 cores - which is as untrue as my statement, one PPE which is a cut down Power core and 8 SPEs which are by no means general purpose CPU cores and as such should not be compared to the Niagras 8..."

"...Having read both I'd have to conclude the Sun article is a peice of marketing FUD..."

So you mean that CELL does not rely on it's 8 cores to do work? And therefore you should only count CELL as one core, the powerpc core? Cool. So you mean that the powerpc core alone, by itself, achieves 41GBit/sec on small loads? Or is it so that the CELL uses all 9 cores to achieve 41GBit/sec? So when you talk about the CELL you describe it as "multi core CPU having 8 cores" or as "single core CPU having 1 core"? What I am trying to say that you can describe the CELL as single core if you wish. Me, will describe it as 8 core + 1 core = 9 core CPU, just as SUN does. And that is a more truer description of CELL. And that is not FUD, neither from me or from SUN. Even IBM describes the CELL as multi core CPU. I must say that you IBMers have a strange view of what FUD is. "SUN stating CELL is multi core CPU is FUD" - yeah right.

So you mean that when IBM claims one Mainframe can consolidate 1500 x86 servers are facts? It turns out that IBM assumes the x86 servers to all idle and the Mainframe loads at 100%!!! So I can claim my laptop can consolidate lots of servers, if they all do nothing - just as IBM does. This is just lies.

IBM also claims that Power6 has 250GB/sec bandwidth. Then IBM adds all bandwidth in the CPU! That is a lie. If there is a bottleneck on 10GB/sec, the chip will never be faster than 10GB/sec. You can not add all bandwidth, that will never be achieved.

Or when IBM claims "one Niagara core is slower than the Power6 core, ergo the Niagara CPU is slower than the Power6 CPU". That is also lies. Assume the worlds fastest CPU has 10.000 slow cores. Can you then say "one core is slower than Power6 core, ergo, the cpu is slower"??? No. That is just lies.

I must again say that IBM has a strange view on what FUD is.

Kebabbert

Mattie Pattie Laddie

How does it matter how much a consumer CPU as Cell has sold, compared to a server CPU as Niagara? Does this make Cell faster than Niagara? I dont get it. We are talking about performance, and if the Niagara is so slow as you claim. I try to show that you are wrong on this by posting benchmarks. But still you continue to spread FUD about how slow the Niagara is, despite it has several world records, including TPC-C and SIEBEL.

If you can prove that a consumer CPU as Cell has sold more than server CPUs, does that prove that the Niagara is slow? Does that prove you are right? No. Maybe I should change tactic, and do exactly as you do and spread FUD, instead of posting links to benches? I dont get it, why do you continue to spread FUD regarding the Niagara, which forces me to dispel your FUD? Why are you allowed to spread FUD, but it is not allowed when someone tries to prove that you are not correct? At least I can apologize and accept corrections if I am wrong - whereas you are not.

Regarding the Cell and Niagara, I must post links to my claim that Niagara is more than 10 times faster. Or I could be lying. Here is the proof.

http://blogs.sun.com/bmseer/entry/extremely_fast_pattern_matching_on

.

"....Kebabfart's case is especially amusing given that he has previously admitted his comapny don't even use Niagara but do use IBM's servers, so it is impossible for him to pretend his opinions are from personal experience!..."

Actually, I dont get this one. I have never claimed that my company uses IBM servers. Can you prove your false claim, then post that link. But my fortune 500 company in finance, uses Solaris servers. And are migrating to Linux. We dont use IBM servers, nor Power6 cpus. Why do you claim that?

I dont get it. Why are you allowed to write false things in many posts, but I am not allowed to correct you so the readers get a correct view? If you would write that Niagara costs 1 million USD, and I correct you - then that is not allowed? But you are allowed to write whatever you want?

.

And I still dont understand how you can write that "in your opinion the niagara suffers from a small cache", when hard benches and numbers show the opposite. Do you also write "in my opinion that 2m guy is shorter than the 1.5m guy"?

Kebabbert

Cell sucks on certain workloads:

I forgot to post the links that show that 1.4GHz Niagara is more than 10 times faster than a 3.2GHz Cell. Here it is:

http://blogs.sun.com/bmseer/entry/extremely_fast_pattern_matching_on

.

Mattie Pattie Laddie, it doesnt matter how much the CELL sells. You see, CELL is a commodity product for the masses and the Niagara is for servers. The market is smaller for servers. But again, you fail to notice that you can not compare them. Out of ignorance, or out of sheer dumbness. It doesnt matter what you say about the CELL, the true facts are that the CELL is not that almighty fast as IBM tries to say.

I agree with one thing, that IBM has marketing muscles so IBM can fool anyone.

And I am still astonished by your statement somethinge like "In my OPINION the Niagara is slow"!!! And you still say Slowlaris, despite Solaris and Niagara smokes Power6 and AIX which benches show. But of course, it is your OPINION that SUNs products are slower. And also, that 2m guy is shorter than that 1.5m guy - in your opinion. Nutcase. How the heck can your opinion be that a 2m guy is shorter than a 1.5m guy? Do you have a large machine helping you to breath?

.

Adam 61

If you are fed up with me talking about the Niagara vs Power6 and CELL, do you think the SUN supporters are fed up with the FUDers here? So it is ok they morons continue down talk SUN here, but no one else is allowed to point to benches? Are you serious???

And I dont buy your claim that you dont support any OS. Why would you react when someone tries to prove that Niagara is not slow, contrary to what some FUDers say? Am I not allowed to defend SUN and dispel the FUD? No, I am not? Why do you care, if you dont support any OS? Ergo, I dont buy your claims.

I dont see why I should stop point to benches Niagara vs Power6, when Mattie Pattie and the others continues. You allow them to continue, but try to stop me. And you claim that you dont support any OS, yes? And you also claim the moon is made of cheese, right?

Kebabbert

Adam 61

You want me to shut up talking about how slow the legacy Power6 and Power7 are, and how fast the Niagara is? Why? Yes, the Power6/7 are fast. But when you compare them to a REAL cpu, their weakness is revealed. Do you feel mad each time I remind everyone how slow the Power6/7 are, when pitted against a real CPU? You really want the Power6 to be the fastest, and I shake your world each time I talk about the Niagara?

I feel sorry for you, but I am not going to stop. Why? Because I am fed up of Trolls and FUDers here down talking the Niagara. There are so many of them. And they often post things like "I work at a large bank and we love the niagara but now we are migrating to power6". It is always the same, they work at a large bank. Always a bank. And they always love the Niagara, but now they are migrating to Power. Always. It is the same theme. It is highly unlikely there are different persons writing and using the same expressions, on the same theme. I am fed up of this FUDers and liars. Therefore, I will not stop pointing to hard benchmarks of Niagara and Power so people sees that it is FUDs and lies. I will stop when there are no more FUD spreading here. Then I stop. Until then I will show with hard facts and hard numbers exactly how slow the legacy Power6 is. When the 5GHz octo core Power7 comes, I will point to benches compared with 1.4GHz Niagara and show how slow Power7 is. I will not post things that I can not backup, I will not post FUD ie things without evidence. I will post hard links and hard facts. Let me do that now, below.

The difference between me and those FUDers, are that I post links to hard benches, and they FUDers can not prove their claim. For instance "the Niagara suffers from a small cache" - but the benches show the opposite! The best part is when some moron says "in my OPINION the Niagara suffers from a small cache". It is like "in my opinion this 2m guy is shorter than that 1.75m guy". Hard benches show a totally different picture.

And there ARE morons here, claiming that "SUN is using carefully crafted benches that benefits the Niagara and punishes other CPUs". But all niagara benches are official, like TPC-C or Siebel V8.0. SUN has not created these benches. Only a moron claims that SUN has created the Siebel v8 benchmark, or the TPC-C benchmark.

.

Anonynmous Coward

About that sucky CELL cpu from IBM you talk about. I will show with hard facts how slow it can be. I will not do like the FUDers do "In my opinion/onion the Cell is slow", "I work at a large bank and we love the CELL but now we are migrating to C64", "the cell is the slowest fhing out there and it is dead, no one should buy CELL", etc. Instead, I will post hard benches. That is the method prefered by mathematicians. To prove things.

The 1.4GHz octo core Niagara is thirteen times as fast as the 3.2 GHz IBM CELL with 9 cores in pattern matching. In "IEE Computer" IBM implemented a pattern matching algorithm with lots of heavy optimizations for the Cell. And SUN just implemented the algorithm directly from book without optimizations and is 13 times as fast as the optimised Cell version. Pattern matching is used in finance, bio informatics and other fields. But of course, soon some moron will say "SUN invented pattern matching because it benefits the Niagara and punishes other CPUs", yes? Soon all existing benches will benefit the Niagara and punish all other, does that mean that Niagara is faster on everything then?

Ive told you before, and I will tell you again: IBM does not have that good tech that IBM marketing says. And it costs cruelly much more than SUN, with better and faster tech, and for one fraction of the price, and also open tech. When Oracle increases the price on SUN hardware many times, then you will maybe see how cheap the SUN hardware actually was.

Kebabbert

Hopefully

Hopefully the 5 GHz Power7 will be several times faster than the Power6+ so it can match the 1.4GHz Niagara T2+. For instance, to match one 1.4GHz Niagara on Siebel v8 benches, you need six 4.7GHz Power6 and one 1.9GHz Power6.

See IBM white paper on this fact:

http://www.oracle.com/apps_benchmark/doc/IBM_Siebel8_7000_PSPP_On_AIX_POWER6%20Final.pdf

And SUNs result:

http://www.oracle.com/apps_benchmark/doc/sun-siebel-8-14000-pspp-on-solaris-benchmark-white-paper.pdf

.

So the 5GHz Power7 must be more than six times faster than the 4.7GHz Power6+ to match one 1.4 GHz Niagara. But that might be difficult to achieve as it seems that the Power7 core is weaker than the Power6 core, according to comments here:

http://www.c0t0d0s0.org/archives/5941-The-new-TPC-H-benchmark-from-IBM.html

It seems that the octo core Power7 is only 2-3 times faster than the dual core Power6+. Then it will not be fast enough to catch up the 1.4 GHz Niagara on Siebel.

Ellison whips out his Sparc TPC-C test

Kebabbert

Jesper Frimann

"...My whole point was that I don't think that Niagara based servers are general purpose servers..."

But I dont think anyone here believes or claims that? SUN has made it clear that on certain work loads the Niagara is really good. It turns out that Niagara is many times faster a several times higher clocked CPU, on some work loads. And there are workloads where Niagara sucks. Hence, it is not a general purpose server. But OTOH, which server CPU is that? For instance, if you have a large enough work load so the Power6 cache will thrash, swap things in and out all the time, then Power6 will not perform good. It depends on fitting all work load into it's cache to achieve good performance. Otherwise it will suck. Hence, Power6 is "not a general purpose server CPU" - just as Niagara.

What I am trying to say is that every solution has it's weaknesses and strengths. There is no CPU which is good on every task. SUN has made clear of Niagara weaknesses. IBM has not made clear of Power6 weaknesses. "My whole point is that Power6 is not a general purpose CPU, as it has weak sides just like every CPU has. Including Niagara".

Kebabbert

Mattie Pattie Laddie

I dont post anonymously.

.

If we talk about performance and best tech, does a big sales record prove that the performance is best? No. Windows outsells everything else, does it mean that Windows is the best OS? No. Regarding performance and the best tech, I would appreciate if you posted hard links to hard benches, instead of posting "your opinions". You can not conclude that a certain CPU is slowest based on an opinion - especially when the benches show it to be fastest in the world.

Kebabbert

Mattie Pattie,

I dont post anonymously, other than when I post "i work at a large bank, and I love the Power6, but now we migrate away to Niagara".

.

Does it surprise you that there are more people than me, claiming that you lie? Regarding your benchmark: profit. So what? Ive want to show you that your are FUD by claiming that Niagara is slow, and by writing Slowlaris. If you were true, I wouldnt be able to post benches showing that Solaris on Niagara easily kills AIX and Power6. But now I am able to post such benches, which means you are lying. The Solaris and niagara is in fact many times faster than IBM, on certain work loads.

So let me ask you again: which is the fastest? Will you stop spread FUD and lies? Clearly, benches show which is many times faster: Niagara.

Kebabbert

JuanMaBlue

Let me ask you, have you asked your friend how IBM did their TPC-C benchmarks? Do you really think that IBM did their benchmark differently from Oracle? Think, McFly, think! Jesus.

Someone withdrew their TPC-C bench recently, who was that? Was it IBM?

Kebabbert

Apologize to Jesper

I see that you are not like Mattie Pattie. Therefore I want apologize for my answer. We may disagree but clearly you are no aggressive FUDer and liar. I accept that you disagree with me, that is totally ok. I dont like when people spread FUD though. But I dont think you are that kind of person.

As for your reply to me, I dont agree with you about the details. But never mind them.

Regarding my "nasty habit" of calling people FUDer and liars, as I see it, I have no nasty habit of that. As I see it, there are lot of people having nasty habits of lying about Niagara, about how slow it is, how it suffers from a small cache, etc. But how can that be true when facts show that Niagara crushes other CPUs on some work loads? I try to tell those morons that they are wrong and explain why they are wrong, but they just dont get it. I post benchmarks, I post articles, etc - but still they claim the Niagara is slow. As I see it, they LIE. I have proven them wrong, but still they persist.

Now, what do you call their behaviour? They are proven wrong, but still they persist. Are they lying then? It is like "this car with the new revolutionary jet engine can never be fast. Sure, it reaches 800mph which benches show, but I promise you, it is slow." I call that lying, dont you?

So I mean that some people have a nasty habit of lying because I prove them wrong, and still they continue - which is a nasty habit from them. Then I start to call them FUDer and liar. Is this wrong? Are they not FUDers and liars, you mean?

Your heart may be with IBM, mine will be at open source SUN. As long as people dont start to spread FUD, I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. Therefore, I wish you lots of beer and 6 in a near future! :)

Kebabbert

@Jesper - liar/ignorant

Do you have prolems understanding text, or do you lie deliberately? Where am I "not backing my statements up"? If you are going to spread FUD or lie about me, then you should be able to prove your claims. Otherwise you are lying, or FUDing or are ignorant. Dont try to spread FUD about me. OTOH, there are FUDers here. They claim that Niagara suffers from a too small a cache and therefore is not fast. Now, if that is FUD I dont know. Who is fastest right now? How is that possible if the FUDers are correct?

Regarding your lies about me, you have to prove that I lie, otherwise it is YOU that is the liar and FUDer. Because I dont lie, and you can NOT prove that I lie, so therefore you can join the ranks where Mattie Pattie Laddie is. Because you are lying about me. And I shall now prove that you lie about me. And, you can not prove that I lie. Try it, I dare you. Who is the liar, then?

.

Proposition: Jesper is lying about me.

Proof. Jesper claims that I can not back my statements up, and he claims I have written similar false things several times earlier. He writes:

"Again you can't back up your claims"

He then argues that the Power6 does not consume 500-600 Watt. And presents some numbers showing that the Power6 does not consume 500-600 Watt. And draws the conclusion I am wrong. Ergo I lie.

I have not accepted your calculations. Maybe they are wrong maybe not. Maybe the Power6 really uses 500W, but youre calculations are wrong?

Well the point is Jesper Fresper, that I never claim that Power6 uses 500-600 Watt. I am ASKING. I write "Is 500-600 watt per Power6+ CPU realistic?". I dont claim it is true, I ask and I speculate. Earlier Ive asked why IBM refuses to publish Power6 power usage, and I asked if the Power6 uses 500 W? Check every post from me about this and you will see that I never claim that Power6 uses 500W. I am merely asking and speculating - which I make clear. I use question marks, etc. But you missed that, obviously.

Now, I dont claim that Power6 uses 500Watt. So dont come here and say that I - again - doesnt back up my claims, because I claim nothing. I dont have to back up anything. And dont try to imply that I earlier times have claimed false things. If you want to claim something about me, then you prove it. I strongly dislike lies.

Ergo, Jesper Fresper is lying about me. Stop it, ok? Or, prove that I have lied. Good luck. And, then you must prove that I lied repeatedly. Good luck again. If you can not prove youre claims, then stop lie.

.

.

Regarding the pricing of the TPC-C setups. Ive read that the single IBM P595 machine costed $17 million USD, on IBM's TPC benchmark page containing information about the configuration IBM used. Why do you claim the P595 for the TPC cost $8 million? Are you lying again or is this pure ignorance? Or confusion from your side?

And regarding all your pricing talk, so what? Why do you calculate the pricing? What are you trying to prove? Are you just confused? For your information, I have never claimed that SUNs solutions is cheaper or more expensive than IBM's. I have only talked about the performance. I wanted to show that the people here saying that Niagara is slow, are wrong. And this TPC score proves I am correct. I dont care about the pricing. I only care about performance, just to prove that Niagara is fast. In fact, maybe you missed it, but I am very clear about the pricings. That no one can afford these computers, and therefore they are not interesting setups. So why do you talk about pricing with me? I am not interested in discussing pricing. Confused? Are you often confused?

Kebabbert

@Jesper Frimann

What dont I get? That I dont like TPC benchmarks, as all such systems are pathological and no one can afford them? How many times have I said that? Who can afford $17.1 million for the IBM P595 machine? No one. SUNs hardware is also expensive, but so what. These benches are not realistic. IBM P595 used several thousand short stroked hard drives, who does that?

And for the sucky P595 which scales bad. Each CPU 4.7GHz Power6+ uses huge amount of power. Have you seen the power consumption in the link Ive posted above? Is 500-600 watt per Power6+ CPU realistic? The 1.4GHz T2+ uses ~110 Watt and it outperforms the 4.7GHz Power6. It is funny how bad characteristics the Power6 has. Uses 5-6 times(?) more power AND uses 3 times higher frequency, and still the Niagara is 6 times faster on Siebel v8 benches. And also faster on TPC-C.

.

http://www.c0t0d0s0.org/archives/5941-The-new-TPC-H-benchmark-from-IBM.html

"Almost 4 years ago IBM published a result of the p5-595. This system yielded with 1.9 Ghz Power5 CPU 100,512.30 QphH. 4 years of development, 256 GByte more memory and 2.6 times the frequency gives you just roundabout 50% more performance[154,115.8 QphH]. Nice, but not that impressive, especially given the effort put into this CPU in regard of cycles."

From 1.9GHz Power5 to 5GHz Power6 gives you 50% more performance. I call this BAD scaling. Who doesnt? The comments are also fun. He shows that the Power7 is slower per core, than the Power6.

.

Some people dont get it. Who is fastest right now? How can that be, if the Niagara is so slow? Facts show that some people here are lying. Say what you want about the Niagara, lie how much you want, but Niagara has the performance crown.

And for you FUDers who say that Niagara doesnt scale beyond 4 sockets and therefore produces inferior solutions: well you are WRONG as evidenced by this article. The point of scaling is to offer more performance. But what if you are the fastest on the planet? Then what is the point of complaining "it doesnt scale"? It is already the fastest! It doesnt need to scale beyond this! It is fastest on earth. And if you really need to scale, just add another T5440. That works good as we can see from this article.

And still, the T5440 is $76.000 and one cheapo IBM P570 is $413.000. In Siebel v8, IBM needs 6 of the P570 to match one T5440. That is bad in my opinion.

Kebabbert

Impressive!!!

Compare to the earlier top result.

IBM used 76 racks vs SUN used 9 racks!! That is mighty impressive. IBM used almost 10 times more racks to get a lesser result. And look at the Wattage consumption of IBM compared to SUN.

And regarding cost, only the P595 machine itself costed $17.1 million. Jesus. And it needed 32 CPUs with the "Uberfast 4.7GHz Power6+". Now we are talking about really big costs.

The SUN solution used 48 CPUs with the 1.4GHz Niagara to get a 25% better result. How can that be, if the Niagara is so slow, which FUDers say? If the Niagara would be so slow, it would be impossible for it to beat the three times higher clocked Power6? Someone is wrong on this.

Some web pages say SUN used 36 sockets. If there were 12 of the T5440 then it should be 48 sockets. So 36 sockets are wrong.

http://blogs.sun.com/BestPerf/entry/tpc_c_world_record_sun

.

Ive earlier told you FUDers that SUN could have easily won the TPC benches if SUN wanted too. But SUN thinks these TPC benches are meanless. Here is proof that I was right all the time. But still, I dont like TPC benches, as I feel they are artificial. Who can afford $17 million for the P595 machine? It used several thousand short stroked discs. Who uses that in production? These TPC monster machines are not really representative for real work. So why? I understand Oracle wants to show off the synergy effects of acquiring SUN, so that would be an acceptable reason.

Anyway. All your TPC results are belong to Oracle + SUN.

Much ado about IBM's mainframe monopoly

Kebabbert

You are wrong

on this. The IBM mainframe CPU probably has the worst performance/price ratio, ever. How can you not agree that 1 MIPS == 4 MHz x86 is not bad??? The latest IBM mainframe CPU for 50.000USD(?) performs roughly as one fast Nehalem. But the Nehalem cost 1000USD or so.

Oracle and Sun fingered for Sidekick fiasco

Kebabbert

No solution can handle bad managers

It wouldnt matter if this would have run on Mainframes, IBM or HP-UX if the same manager was in charge. Or does someone claim that IBM AIX is NOT vulnerable to bad decisions?

Sun tunes its VirtualBox

Kebabbert

@Oliver Jones

Ive tried to install OpenSolaris in VirtualBox and it absolutely sucked. The performance was abysmal. However, Ive also installed Linux and Windows and there were no problems at all. Performance was very good.

I suggest you try VirtualBox again, but with another OS than OpenSolaris. I am sure you will be pleased with the performance. Many people say that it is faster than VMware.

PS. VirtualBox now uses several CPUs. And also supports 3D graphics, albeit rudimentary. Both OpenGL and DX.

Sun debuts FlashFire, calls record books

Kebabbert

Sun has good tech

everyone agrees on that. Even the competitors.

If you use SSDs as a cache to a ZFS disk solution, then ZFS will correct errors in the SSDs. And also, the SSDs needs to "warm up", meaning that the cache needs to be populated with random data. If there are problems in the SSD, the ZFS will automatically get the correct data from disk instead and just overwrite the SSD data.

The SSDs are not important for the drives, SSDs will never write wrong data to the discs. I believe you can just pull the plug for the SSDs without any problems. You will just loose a huge performance boost. The SSDs are just an addon boosting performance.

TPC slaps Oracle on benchmark claims

Kebabbert

@Jesper

Ok, let us see who is correct later. I believe that Oracle will take actions to sell more SPARCs, by favoring that architetcure. You believe the opposite - which means that nobody wants to buy SPARC because of too a high price. Fine. Let us wait and see.

Kebabbert

Jesper

You are wrong on this. It is 0.5 licenses nowadays. And Oracle will change much more. The SPARCs will be the most cost effective to run Oracle. Otherwise Oracle will not sell SPARC, which they own. Oracle would be dumb to price the SPARCs to high. You will see.

Kebabbert

All your CPUs belongs to Oracle + SUN

"All your CPUs belongs to Oracle + SUN".

.

I can not wait until Oracle + SUN announces what the Niagara "which suffers from a slow cache" can do. Niagara will smoke the three times as higher clocked legacy constructed Power6+. And I will looooove to read Mattie Pattie Laddies explanation on that killing. Laughing stock.

.

Oh, and soon I should add the usual "I work at a large bank/whatever pick your fancy and I looove the Power servers, but when we benched three IBM P570 to one Sun T5440 we saw that we had to migrate to be competive. I hate that, but we have to" - just as you people write here all the time swapping IBM for SUN. FUDers and Liars are what some of you are. Shame on you!

Mainframe emulator goes commercial

Kebabbert

Reread my posts???

I have posted links to an Linux expert showing that 1 MIPS equals 4 MHz x86 (in the days of Pentium4). Read that link again. Nehalems are much more powerful than a P4, clock for clock. I've also argued that the Mainframe CPUs are not that fast in comparison with a fast Nehalem. Say that a normal Mainframe CPU does 10.000MIPS (costing 100K USD or even more?).

Consider a Pentium 4 at 3.2GHz with 8 cores. It has 8 cores x 3200MHz = 25,600 MHz. Tthat corresponds to 6,400 MIPS, Now, how much more powerful is a Nehalem than Pentium 4, clock to clock? Twice? Thrice? If you look at the benchmarks on TomsHardware of a 3GHz Pentium 4 and pit it against a 3GHz Nehalem, the Pentium 4 maybe gets around 30 points in a typical benchmark, and the Nehalem gets maybe 250points. Almost 10 times more. Let us be generous and say that the Nehalem is only 3 times as fast as a P4, clock to clock. Then 25,600MHz would correspond to 19,200 MIPS. That is more than 10,000MIPS to me. If a Nehalem is 5 times faster than a Pentium 4, then it would correspond to 32,000MIPS, which is faster than any Mainframe CPU. If it is 10 times faster than a P4, then it corresponds to 64,000MIPS. Add Herkules ontop and let us see the cheapest Mainframe costing a million USD? vs a fast Nehalem EX machine with software emulation, costing 5K?

.

Captain Thyrathron

"Dude, where do you even come up with this stuff?"

Nowhere have I talked about the I/O of a Nehalem. I have only talked about raw power of the CPUs. Havent I? Have I lied to you? Have I not provided links and hard facts? You could email that Linux expert that "debunks the Mainframe myth" in that link Ive posted if you wish to know more on his work. If you claim that he lies, then I would like to know where he lies. If you are correct, that he is a liar, then I will not write such things again.

But then you have to prove that he is wrong. And your IBM propaganda doesnt count. IBM states that the Power6+ CPU has 250 GB/sec band width, but IBM adds all bandwidth in the CPU. That is clearly false, if there is a bottleneck with 10GB/sec then there will be no higher bandwidth than 10GB/sec. IBM people are not technically knowledgeable, or they are twisting their propaganda. Pick your choice.

.

Why do I always cheer for SUN? Well, they are open source. And they have the best tech. ZFS rules. And DTrace. And Niagara. And Zones. etc etc The list could go and on. I only support the best tech. I am geek. If IBM gets the best tech, I switch.

Kebabbert

1 IBM Mips equals 4MHz x86

According to a Linux expert, 1 Mips == 4 MHz x86. Thus, a Mainframe CPU is not really that fast. A Nehalem is probably faster.

http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-390@vm.marist.edu/msg18587.html

It is suggested that you can replace Mainframes nowadays with a Linux/Unix server. You can emulate a Mainframe on your laptop with Herkules.

http://blogs.sun.com/jsavit/entry/once_again_mainframe_linux_vs

Mainframes were really fast in the days of intel 286. But today, a Nehalem is pretty fast. Next year a Nehalem with 8-12 cores at high frequency will be released. It will probably crush a Mainframe CPU. A Mainframe with 8 sockets cost millions dollars. And will be outperformed by a decent x86 Nehalem server running Linux or Unix at a fraction of the price.

IBM dont like to release general Mainframe benches, why is that if the Mainframes are so good? Probably the benches show lousy performance. IBM braggs when there is something to brag about. I would like to see IBM's cheapest Mainframe against a fast clocked Nehalem EX with Herkules. I bet the Nehalem will win.

London Stock Exchange grabs rival

Kebabbert

Windows

Well, LSE changes exchange system now, because their earlier run ontop Windows. And after 1-2 years, they were forced to ditch the Windows stock exchange. This proves that Windows has a long way to go before being stable enough. The Windows stock system was developed by english speaking Accenture, and Microsofts best people. Being english speakding didnt suffice though.

Linus calls Linux 'bloated and huge'

Kebabbert

Fun thing

If I say "Linux is bloated and huge" people will say "no, you are a Troll". Then later when Linus T says the same thing, then what? Can not people think themselves? Must Linus T explain everything? If I say something true, it is not true until Linus T had confirmed. That is ridiculous. No critical thinking, no logical thinking. Dogmatic view.

Kebabbert

Linux should aim for quality

instead of quantity. The Linux code base is 10 millions line of code. ONE SINGLE KERNEL. The entire Windows NT was 10 millions LOC. I think Linus should reconsider, and have a plan instead of redesigning everything all the time.

When he states that they fix bugs faster than they add code, so what? The code they bug fixed will soon be swapped out to new code that contains new bugs. It doesnt matter if they fix bugs, because that code will soon be swapped out. And again and again. This is the reason Linux has no stable ABI, and this is one of the prime reasons Linux is unstable.

Even Linux kernel developer Andrew Morton complains about the declining quality of the Linux kernel. His words:

http://lwn.net/Articles/285088/

Q: Is it your opinion that the quality of the kernel is in decline? Most developers seem to be pretty sanguine about the overall quality problem. Assuming there's a difference of opinion here, where do you think it comes from? How can we resolve it?

A: I used to think it was in decline, and I think that I might think that it still is. I see so many regressions which we never fix.

SGI's Itanium super smokes Java test

Kebabbert

@Steven Jones

Ah, yes. You are absolutely correct. I had a brain slip. I know that. Thanks for pointing that out.

PS. I put all blame on all this talk about cores and sockets and threads.

Kebabbert

@Henry Wertz

What are you talking about? SUN has a T5440 with 4 Niagaras = 256 cores. Do you mean sockets? You see how confusing this talk about "cores" is? The nr of cores doesnt say anything about the power usage of one cpu, nor the performance of one cpu, etc. And besides, with the acquistion of SUN, Oracle will surely change the pricing not to punish many core Niagaras. In the future everyone will have 8-16 cores / cpu. Then it will be REALLY confusing to pit them CPUs against a legacy dual core Power6+.

-Wow, the Power6 core is twice as fast as cpu X, this means that the power6 is really fast!

-Nope, the cpu X has 32 cores, each half as slow as one Power6 core. This means the cpu X is 16 times as fast as one Power6. The Power6 is dead slow in comparison.

-Ouch, I didnt see that!

-Nope. IBM likes it that way. IBM likes you to draw wrong conclusions. And one Power6 uses 16 times as much power as one cpu X. That is also relevant to be able to draw correct conclusions.

Kebabbert

Obfuscated

I want to know the nr of CPUs in each machine. Not the nr of cores. Because if there are 64 CPUs then I know that machine uses lots of power, and I can rank the CPUs against each other. If a machine uses 128 cores, it could be using 16 cpus which tells me it uses less power. Or it could use 64 cpus which tells me that the machine uses lots of power.

Please talk about sockets, not the nr of cores. The nr of cores are not interesting, when we talk about performance. Which we do in this article.

So-what, if a core is faster than another core, does this mean that the entire CPU is faster than the other? Not necessarily. To draw that conclusion is misleading and it only confuses when you try to draw conclusions. It is like "this machine had 16 dram memory sticks" - and hide how much memory was used.

It is much easier and revealing if you say 32 dual core CPUs instead of 64 cores. In the future, there will be 16 core CPU and even 32 core CPUs. To say 64 cores then, would only serve to confuse. It would be better to say "2 of the 32 core CPUs". The nr of sockets are far more revealing, in terms of power usage, and performance, and bang for the buck.

Oracle, Sun speed-launch Exadata V2

Kebabbert

Latest AC, just above:

"T2+ processors have been incredible with all my throughput applications. And surprisingly IBM Power could not keep up with the throughput and latency was bad at high connections."

No you are dreaming. Dont you know that T2+ suffers from a too small cache and can only beat Power6 on synthetic benchmarks, and never in real work? IBMers say so, then it must be true. And most important; even Mattie Pattie Laddie says so, then it MUST truly be true. Mattie would never lie nor FUD, right?

Kebabbert

Mattie Pattie Laddie

So Solaris is slow? In the same vein as "Niagara suffers from a small cache"? And how do you explain that Niagara crushes three times as higher clocked Power6+ on certain benches? And how do you explain that Solaris is slow? I saw one article that showed Solaris being slow, compared to Linux. That moron (not you) had compared a 800MHz single core Sparc Solaris 8 vs a top modern 2.4 GHz dual core Xeon Linux. Of course a 800MHz SPARC is slower than a dual core 2.4 GHz Xeon! It doesnt matter which OS. The article writer thought that "because most migrations are from old SPARC to modern Linux machines, this is a relevant comparison. Ergo, Solaris is slower than Linux". Now, is it only me that thinks something is wrong here?

If I consider your (proven) earlier lies and FUD, Mattie Pattie Laddie, I suspect you compared an ancient Solaris 8 vs a new Intel dual core Xeon Linux or something similar and concluded to your bosses that Solaris is slow, based on some dumb argument like "they are in the same price range, hence it is a fair comparison". That is clearly dumb to do. That doesnt prove that Solaris is slower, it only proves that Sparc machines are more expensive than x86.

Actually, I suspect you lie about this. Again. Now it is time to do as everyone here does, again. See below.

IT shops rank servers on downtime

Kebabbert

A.C

I just wanted to bring balance to all FUDing going on here. Lots of people writes:

"I work at a large bank / exchange / whatever and we love SUN and Solaris, but now we are migrating to Power because of bla bla".

I am just doing the same, that you guys are doing. Maybe I should drop the /Kebabbert and only post anonymously, just as you guys are doing?

For the benches, there are many benches where Niagara crushes Power utterly. Do you want to see some? I can post many of them. And, dont forget that one T5440 is 76.000 USD and one slooooow P570 is 413.000 USD. T5440 is several times as fast as three P570, and it is much cheaper. To me, it is a no brainer which one to buy. And Oracle will reprice the Database to punish Power now. :o) As I said, no brainer.

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