1303 posts • joined 19 Jun 2009
Re: Meanwhile Google are busy compiling the mother of all prior art databases...
"Don't they have some relationship with a search engine to help them?"
The most important thing is they went public with the project and invited anyone to join in. The world isn't all searchable online yet.
I'm still occasionally trying to track down a future pocket PC mockup printed in a UK computing mag around the early 90's that covers everything Apple are currently claiming to own. The slab shape, the rounded corners, grid of icons, apps, touch screen, *built in phone* etc. Only differences were zero hard buttons and a full surface display... both of which Apple will attempt to claim for it's own before long! Can't find it anywhere online and I'm gradually working through decades of paper in case I kept that issue.
Somewhere in one of the interviews Hogan gave he claims to have thought the jury were heading in Samsungs favour - implying that only changed when he had his 'a-ha' moment and led them over to Apples side.
That's very credible, while the jury ruled for Apple on the software patents, they ruled against Apples design patents - Hogan couldn't drown them in bullshit on something so simple.
Hogan is probably now #2 on Apples hit list after Google. He just sank their whole campaign. What they won won't survive the next trial, what they really needed to win (the design patents) they lost and in a retrial Koh will struggle to keep out prior art again - so they stay lost. And worst of all, there will be no product ban in place for the 2 years it takes getting to retrial and certainly no chance of a rolling ban with new products waved onto it by a protectionist judge.
Meanwhile Google are busy compiling the mother of all prior art databases...
Re: Grumpy old codgers
More *good* choice is good for competition and customers. Weak products create no competitive pressure - no pressure on price, no pressure on features and thanks to a broken patent system even a failed competitor can hamstring an entire industry.
WP7 was exceedingly weak competition with warmed over obsolete core technology (WinCE), years behind on base OS features and with a UI many find repellent. Moreover a radically different UI based as much on a licence deal with Apple *requiring it to be different* as any genuine useful ideas.
WP8 may have a stronger kernel and some of the stupider UI choices fixed, it's still well behind on core OS features, still 'different for difference sake' and so desperate to succeed it's pinned everything on cross marketing from Win8. Sounds pretty damn weak to me.
Does anyone honestly believe anything in the WP8 UI is worth stealing (or not already present elsewhere)? That there's anything in the WP8 kernel any competitor needs? That Win8 cross device support (such as it is) is something Apple or Android could even try to compete with given the de facto MS desktop monopoly - and if they can't compete how does that drive customer benefit?
IMHO WP8 is weak competition, not really different enough from either IOS or Android to provoke competition and MS knows it, hence the willingness to wreck Win8 to prop it up. If weak competition somehow succeeds through the usual MS marketing dirty tricks it won't be good for end users.
Re: what a sorry attempt to distract
"What is this criticism that MS dare to spend money on marketing?"
Are you reading a different thread? The criticism is they spent a mountain of cash on marketing for a tiny amount of sales. That they either cocked up the promotion or are promoting the unsellable.
My criticism at launch time was that all the slick, expensive, saturation advertising steered well clear of telling viewers anything about the phones. All glamour, no substance. It's something that apparently works in the US when selling cars but isn't done here in EU.
Having seen what the product actually is I'm not sure content free promotion was actually a mistake... ;)
How are live tiles any different
The most obvious is you can't see them while running a Metro app or using desktop mode... which is why I prefer seeing my message counts on the the notification bar in Android or the start bar in Windows.
Never been able to understand why using a huge chunk of WP7/8 homescreen to show a simple count makes any sense at all. Its the homescreen - only visible while you're doing nothing and its a HUGE waste of space.
Re: so they can have the same app all over the place
Surely if they have an app on their phone they don't necessarily need it on the desktop since the phone will likely be sitting next to the keyboard functioning as a 2nd screen. Mine sits there showing me incoming email,gmail,tweets,IM etc while I'm doing other things on the desktop. It actually does that consumption pattern better than the PC does.
I switch to PC versions because there's a real keyboard attached OR they have much richer interfaces that make replying easier. Having the same UI on the desktop seems totally pointless. I need the same content and the same service but don't need to limit the interface to access that. I put up with an inferior UI away from the desktop because I have to, when I'm at my desktop why would I accept that?
i scent mischief
How unfortunate would it be if groups of "concerned citizens" started submitting the same false corrections. .
Though if it's anything like Google corrections will just be ignored.
Samsungs lost every case in Germany - wrong
Samsung have started winning cases in Germany in the single court they'd been losing in. Probably because that court noticed courts in the Netherlands, UK and *other parts of Germany* were all ruling for Samsung on the same claims!
just tested it on my PC
Well, it works. You could even say it works well... on my 3rd attempt to launch it.
But what it works best at is reminding us that a touch based interface just doesn't work well on a mouse+keyboard. Temple Run ran fast enough, looked pretty, but was no fun because the bloody mouse wasn't window captured and it was far too easy to get it out of sync in a way that doesn't happen with actual touch. Cue lots of other windows being selected, the player window getting dragged around at random and general unusability.
Something Win8 users will no doubt be facing all too soon ;)
Also a little surprised to see apps on there that Google would filter out based on lack of hardware support.
Anyway, having read the T&Cs it's getting yanked off my PC right away. Most customer information pillaging deals offer some token opt-out. If there's anything about my life they don't own under those T&Cs I can't think of it. Not that I'd allow a program with no quit option, that silently tried to install a 'start at boot' link, to stay on my PC anyway.
Re: @Rob Dobs
Ahhh, but you missed the obvious. They aren't winning with those really obvious patents. Even the German courts have started ruling against Apple after a year of insanity rubber stamping everything. The Germans may have finally noticed that every other EU court has ruled against Apple on the same patents.
...and the Samsung rule 50 appeal should be scaring the jury from that case a LOT. The whole 1st section is redacted but unmistakably about jury corruption. What the foreman swore to do in court is exactly what he didn't do in the jury room. It's been pointed out if it was a UK court he could face jail time. The yanks will probably go easier on him, but the jury ruling will die. Maybe not in Koh's court but it's manifestly unsupportable.
There aren't going to be triple damages on $1bil whatever happens. If the award survives at all it was so badly constructed only a few percent of it is even eligible for tripling.
Apple got a lot of PR from their 'win' and got to perpetuate the import ban but that's about all they'll end up with. And the PR wasn't all good PR.
Re: I trust Shuttleworth only as far as my backup can rescue me
Learned long ago to take a backup before letting any Ubuntu related updater run. That's a /home copy and a drive image for maximum recoverability.
It's been quite a shock the last 2 Kubuntu in place upgrades went smoothly... OK as smoothly as any upgrade involving Nvidia's shitty drivers can be (need Wine to run 3D well).
Re: Google should tell Almunia to feck off
You may be right. AFAIK they've not actually done any investigation at all yet, just compiled that 400 page list of allegations, cherry picked a couple of them and asked for Google to bend over.
But we have good reason to believe most (if not all) those 400 pages were submitted by a coalition of Googles less honest competitors, led by whatever the group of scumbag search hijackers are calling themselves (Fairsearch? can't be arsed looking it up) we all hate and backed my Microsoft.
I doubt it will harm the eventually result if Google make them prove everything in court because it seems unlikely they'll manage to prove anything worthy of a painful fine or restraint. If they prove anything at all. Most likely outcome is pissing away millions on the process, then imposing face saving but empty restrictions. Google might as well just let them waste the time and money instead of volunteering more than the courts are likely to compel.
Re: scale matters
Would anyone seriously consider ordering 1,2 or 3 pages online and having them delivered the next day to be preferable to printing them at home?
Re: HTCs are the WP8 flagship devices
Thought I read it didn't have NFC. Anyway, overall the HTCs are more 'completely' featured.
And they exist today ;)
HTCs are the WP8 flagship devices
So no mention of MS announcing at the launch that these are officially the flagship WP8 phones?
Nokia must be spitting teeth, their 'special relationship' doesn't outweigh the missing features like NFC that HTC remembered to build in.
As expected, MS are shitting on Nokia at the 1st opportunity.
can I say 'contractual obligation' release?
...I think I can. MS fought hard to keep their super secret patent shakedown agreements out of the public record in recent court cases... harder than if they just wanted the numbers kept secret, redacting would achieve that.
I've suggested many times those deals oblige various OEMs to ship Microsoft product, be it WP7, WP8 or Win8. Obliged to ship if they want to keep the Android tax affordable... but apparently also free to price to *not sell* ;)
There is indeed piss taking going on but it's MS getting wet.
how did the ARM emulation perform?
Be nice to see some benchmarks on various apps, to see what sort of hit emulating native ARM code has. Don't believe many apps have ported to native x86 yet.
sign of a mature proct with a long replacement cycle
Nice to see the 'death of the PC' mistake wasn't made here. Yes, they use more chips per device than the tablet/phone competition. We just don't replace PCs very often, they've been more than powerful enough for almost all tasks for 5+ years - the only reason most need replacing is actual catastrophic failure.
DDR3 in particular hasn't been around long enough to be in many PCs ready for replacement.
...and the RAM in PCs also comes in convenient DIMMs you just move over to the next machine/mboard, further reducing demand for new RAM (albeit not by much I'd guess - most probably ends up landfilled).
Re: Very strange
...why, it's almost as if the case doesn't matter at all. Just the chance to get him into custody for the yanks...
yes, only IE will do. In some parallel universe
Oh dear. Forced to use 'some other browser'. Oh... not much of a disaster for us XP users after all.
re: When they appear on the shelves
Let's remember a major reason the WP7 Lumias failed is because by and large they never did appear on shelves. Even the shops that stocked them kept them all in the backroom out of sight. I've still never seen an actual Lumia in real life, despite trawling through shops looking around launch time.
Will it be any different this time? Seems pretty unlikely, apart from EE signing up not much has changed to make buyers want to stock them or shop staff want to sell them. Unless you believe Microsofts cynical Win8 scheme will work... I tend to believe not trashing all their existing apps will be more important to users than some imaginary Win8 bonus.
Re: It's a thinner longer iPhone with patent infringement suit magnet LTE
...there, corrected your title.
I guess the Samsung paperworks already delivered to the ITC and various US courts and the ban hammer is swinging.
Re: weight they're prioritising, not thinness
Didn't they claim it would have a new touchscreen with sensors embedded, substantially reducing its thickness. IMHO they should have used that reduction to fit a fatter battery, not make the phone thinner.
The German Metro Group refused. With no dependency on Microsoft or Microsoft products, MS couldn't bully them into it or afford to buy them to get the rights. Just hope they threw money at the UK Metro newspaper before abandoning the trademark appropriation ;)
I think I'll just carry on calling it Metro. Might keep alive the memory of this whole sorry clusterfuck.
Signs give the information needed to let viewers navigate. ALL they need to do is present that information clearly and easily, they have no active involvement in navigation. A computer UI needs to present navigation information BUT it's also the navigation tool.
Those appear to me to be different requirements. It doesn't matter how space wasting, clumsy or whatever road signage is, it's a different system to navigation and once familiar with a route I don't use it. Once familiar with my UI I still need to use it constantly. I want signs optimised for legibility, my UI optimised for navigation.
Metro de-optimises my navigation to present information I won't need after the 1st few uses. Worse it doesn't even manage to show navigation information better, with hidden controls, acres of wasted space and the 1 size window fits all idiocy. The control elements in my UI are there FOR CONTROL not to show information. The navigation elements are there to let me NAVIGATE not tell me where I'm going.
This whole UI is backwards, designed by idiots so in love with an abstract idea they forgot what the fscking system is meant to do.
Re: I hate Task Centric
While reading the description of WP's task centric behaviour I was more than a little puzzled at why Android is described as app centric. I click on an a link/document/launcher in a hub app OR anywhere else and Android goes off to find the correct app for me, which seems no different. It appears the difference between app and task centric is in the bias of the commenter!
You hate task centric *without user control*. Android embeds its task->app mapping in the OS, not the apps and it gives the user control of that mapping. I don't need to trust anyone else to choose what service my phone chooses, I tell it which to use, I decide if it should remember that choice or ask every time.
My biggest task centric problem has always been making sure all FaceBook tasks die a swift death. Maybe Android is app centric because I can remove the FB apps and the FB tasks die with them ;)
Re: Just a thought
"it solves a non-existent problem."
Didn't people say that about the whole tablet platform?
Many failed attempts to sell PCs in tablet form blinded most in IT to the possibilities of swapping full functionality for convenience. If you're expecting a PC of course this looks like a loser but normal folk don't use PCs the way we do. In any case tabs solve a real problem, convenience and do it *by being different* to PCs.
Metro/Win8/WP8 tries to make disparate devices used in different ways look,feel&behave the same and does it by compromising/limiting the PC experience. That is not a solution to any problem I have.
Re: the point I wanted to make was that there are WP7 handsets available for less than £300
"the point I wanted to make was that there are WP7 handsets available for less than £300"
Yes, the Lumia's were swiftly discounted. It's what happens to phones that aren't selling. That's why you could buy the £549 Xperia Play for £129-149 6 months and 2 official price cuts after launch. It's also why you'll struggle to find a cheap iPhone or Samsung S3 - they're selling well full price.
Being able to buy a cheap Lumia does not say good things about the brand or inspire confidence in it's future.
Re: Just a thought
That's certainly the MS plan, there's no other credible reason they need Metro as the new Windows on the desktop.
But I find no problem switching between XP on the desktop and Android on my phone. XP or anything like it wouldn't work on the phone and Android is equally wrong on the desktop. I'm middle age and presumably less adaptable than youngsters but simply don't need a cross platform UI - it solves a non-existent problem.
So is the underlying assumption that familiarity with Win8 on the desktop will drive WP8 adoption at all credible?
Metro is the solution to a Microsoft market share problem, not it's users problems and it's not for the benefit of it's users. My opinion is they've borked the Win8 experience for nothing.
customers choose the winner, not suppliers
It may well be tempting for vendors to play safe with whatever MS throws at the wall but ultimately the public chooses which phone it buys, not the vendor, not the carrier.
They can influence our choices but even then the carriers have more power. But guess what - the carriers offer a pretty wide choice of phones at all service tiers. So they'll happily stock WP8 devices for those that want to buy them, iPhone if Apple will let them, Android for the bulk of smartphone sales and a whole raft of lesser phones as well.
What's convenient for the phone manufacturers is largely irrelevant to the people that actually buy the phones or the sales figures.
And BTW: outside of the US Apple aren't doing too well damaging Android, MS are taxing it but haven't managed to drive it anywhere near unprofitability. It looks like the Android side is beginning to fight back so the best days in the war (from Apple+MS POV) may be over now.
Tried a lot of ff Android builds and none of them can manage the simple task of opening pages at a readable zoom level or focussed at the main content pane. Something every other Android browser has little trouble with.
The useless POS even resets its zoom level with every link followed making me manually zoom over and over.
If they can't be bothered getting a simple STANDARD usability feature implemented why bother building it at all?
Apparently you slept through Microsoft announcing the ui would no longer be called Metro... or noticing Not Metro shortens to Notro. Microsoft fanboism taken to a new low to whine about this!
won't have it to themselves long enough to win
One slight problem for that USP. How long do you think it will remain unique?
Samsung have a camera division that's been building optically stabilised cameras for years. If this really is a killer feature how long till Samsung phones have it grafted on? For a yardstick, a few weeks back Apple told a court it takes Samsung 3 months to catch up with 5 years Apple effort. And there are rumours Samsung were preparing this before the Nokia announcement anyway!
Sony also have the tech, acquired from Konica Minolta 4-5 years ago and have some pretty good sensor tech of their own.
Even if you're right Nokia won't have long to milk this USP. With the likely launch dates still far off maybe zero time if Samsung are galvanised into action.
Another case of announcing 1st in an industry full of early and premature announcements. iPhone5 panic.
Looking forward to when people manage to properly dissect how the new 'it's nothing to do with what we used to call' Pureview works. My guess is, with no supersampling available and nowhere to put the optics for a supersize sensor it really is that optical stabilisation *and nothing more*.
I say that partly because my beloved Konica Minolta Z6 features the same optical stabilisation and claims an effective 3 stop exposure advantage by allowing longer shake free exposures. It does indeed improve low light performance but not without cost, long exposure bring motion blur to the party.
With 7 years advances since the Z6 they should do better but this tech seems much less revolutionary than Nokia would like us to believe and with caveats they want us not to notice.
It's not even the 1st that does image stabilisation by moving the sensor - Konica Minolta were doing that in 2004 in the DiMage Z series.
Re: Way to go.....
Seems you forgot MS plan to transcompile the existing WP7 apps in their store to run on WP8... you just won't be seeing any magical new WP8 features used for a looooooonnnnnnngggggggggg time.
Re: the other apps are just gimmicks
It's worse. All of them are things IOS,Android,Blackberry (and probably Symbian and Java feature phone) users have been able to download of their respective app stores for a long time. Free downloads apart from offline maps.
Seems the only innovation in the phone is from Nokia hardware and it's not enough to survive today's market. Or maybe Nokia will pre-emptively sue Samsung before they can drown Nokia in similarly featured phones ;)
Re: Wait a minute...
In reality if you care at all about taking photos you carry a camera and just use a cameraphone for fun. Any improvement is welcome but honestly, how many people choose a phone based on it's camera (*) and haven't all of them already bought an 808?
(*) I'll confess the presence of a front facing camera does sway my choice but that's a whole different thing! ...and rapidly swaying me less since confirming just how poor video calls over 3G are ;)
Oracles amazing mutating claims caused the $1mil bill
You didn't report my favourite bit of the ruling:
"A close follower of this case will know that Oracle did not place great importance on its copyright claims until after its asserted patents started disappearing upon PTO reexamination"
Some of us commented on exactly that when they finally reached court with SCO's 2nd hand legal case standing in for a real one. That it's also why Alsup refused to reduce that part of the costs claim just adds to the fun.
Still, David Boies's PR campaign to suggest Google bought public opinion is over and I doubt the judge is well pleased with being led on a wild goose chase by it. Maybe he checked past Boies cases and read recent interviews with the man and notice the repeating MO. Can't have helped with the costs award ;)
Buying their way out of SE may have been needed to consolidate all their products but it's bad news for their reputation and customer trust. Ericsson always offered some reassurance that Sony's natural 'shaft the customer' tendencies would be controlled and that moderation might leak across to the tablet division.
Now we just have the same serial customer abusers in control everywhere and I for one don't trust them an inch.
...and yes, still pissed that they dropped my Xperia Play the second the sale was agreed, then invented technical problems as cover. Bunch of shits.
Re: Tired of MS playing politics
WebGL... I hear echoes of MS trying to kill OpenGL on Windows. The market overruled them back then, it will this again if WebGL takes off.
"on anything vaguely modern, it "just works" and always has"
Yet I have 4 supposedly supported DVT-T tuners here and over the years (all the way back to having just 2 tuners 5+ years ago) I've not found a distro+kernel combo that supports all of them simultaneously, rarely found one that actually works for more than of the tuners.
Every update just shuffles the pack. Open source drivers stop compiling when they change the video API, closed source blobs just break, drivers compile install and load but just don't work or in 1 case the driver maintainer gets so pissed with the endless changes and intransigent attitudes that he quits and no-one takes his place. OEM maintainers generally try once or twice then give up chasing the runaway driver model.
Step even slightly off the common path and Linux hardware support goes MIA and a lot of it is due to the shitty attitude the (equally shitty) GNOME devs point out.
It's not just the product cycles are much shorter, for software the time to independent (re)discovery is so short patent protection serves no purpose.
That's partly because the ideas being patented right now are so ludicrously primitive they would inevitably be 'discovered' by average programmers as soon as they needed to solve that problem. Patent protection is about scarcity of innovation, encouraging sharing for the good of all. But the patents being issued aren't for innovation with any sort of scarcity to it.
More important: software is the 1st example of the 'infinite monkeys typing' concept. We have so many people writing software, sufficient of them being creative doing it that invention is a tidal flood, not a scarce trickle.
What's wrong with software patents is the failure to properly account for both those aspects, that without scarcity there's no need to protect trivial discoveries. Instead the patent offices have stampeded the other way and allowed everything, however trivial or obvious to get protection.
Re: A little harsh
All the variants I can see that specify it say Win7 Home Premium 64... TBH I wouldn't expect anything new to ship with a 32bit OS.
I won't be taking bets on MS repeating the Kin One experience. Killed about 3 months after launch when it failed to sell more than 500 units. This time they can't afford to give up so easily, however poor sales are.
Japan result in: there's a pattern even Apple can't ignore
I wonder if Apples new found willingness to talk relates to the rapidly growing list of patent cases they've LOST against Android/Android users. Outside of some local German courts and that mockery of a jury in America they're losing everywhere.
Latest result: Japan just ruled against Apple in another attack on Samsung. No patent infringement in yet another country.
At some point reality catches up with most and Jobs is no longer around to blind his followers to reality. Google can just take it's time because time doesn't seem to be working for Apple. The real fun will be trying to deconstruct the 'not so' secret pact with Microsoft before MS can turn on Apple. MS have much more experience screwing their partners than Apple.
You were spoilt. Modula 2? We dreamed of that when I was learning. Cheeky lecturers even let us read the white papers then went back to forcing us to use standard Pascal - a language designed to prevent anything but toy programs being written in it!
The most productive programmers in my entire years in university used BASIC or machine code. Both ran faster than Pascal did on the mainframe and imposed much less insane limits on what was expressable.
Yes, we all know all MS really did was remove that pesky start button, nothing else changed at all...
The quality of fanbois comment has declined far below 'pathetically out of touch with reality' well before Win8 even launches.
Power users are going to just bypass all the new crap while subconsciously downgrading support for MS products. Ordinary and new users are going to wonder WTF just happened when Win8 switches UI modes, wonder WTF the controls are hidden in Metro. The missing Start menu will be the least of their worries.
Re: Of course the fact that they had just spent
Steve Todd:"Unfortunately for Samsung the test is "no reasonable jury" would have made the decision that they did"
The juries own statements establish this was not a 'reasonable jury' as jury's are meant to be formed and act and everything they decided is open to challenge.
Unfortunately for Apple and Apple fanbois the problem here is the jury justified their decisions based on the lack of prior art, prior art the court withheld from them. If they'd just shut their mouths it would probably end with 'no reasonable jury' but they A: established prior art is too important to be excluded the way it was, B: raised enough questions about jury corruption that A will get considered as a side effect.
So the question becomes: if all the prior art was seen what would a 'reasonable jury' decide. And this jury is no guide to that because they don't look remotely like a 'reasonable jury'.
This is going to retrial. That's not that interesting though, the real issue here is whether this threatens the rest of the Android world. As the days pass, as I consider it more, it seems less important. Samsung aren't innocent and certainly aren't as skilled at surfing right on the edge of what's legally permissable as Google showed in Oracle vs Google.
Android was created by an entity more aware of what they could get away with and with more ability to fight the nonsense patents Apple are using. The real battle hasn't begun and it will be brutal and hopefully put us back 30 years to a world where innovation has to be real to survive the market, not imposed by a parasitic legal system.
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