1852 posts • joined 18 Jun 2009
It's a good thing that Windows 8 doesn't insist that then.
Re: Good luck with WP8 phones if Win 8 tanks
When the iphone was first released, I remember Apple fans bragging it was running OS X(!) I don't recall Apple ever being criticised that their phone couldn't run OS X software.
Re: Not surprised
It's worth noting that most the upcoming "tablets" are hybrids, so it suggests that they think the best situation is to have a keyboard for real computing, but use a touch-optimised new interface when you need the portability. Which I think is the right choice. I don't want to do windowed/"desktop" applications on a touchscreen, and I don't want to do small windowed/"desktop" applications if I'm walking around with a tablet.
"And if you're not planning on running traditional desktop apps, then why would you even consider a Windows tablet?"
Some obvious things I can think of off the top of my head: Even though the UI needs to be redone, porting is far easier. Also easier integration, e.g., Windows networking (useful both for business and home).
Also the question seems odd - even if I couldn't run desktop apps, since you can't do that on any other tablet OSs, it's not a negative. I would still at least consider the available options when buying something.
I remember 10 or so years ago
On geek/IT forums like The Register, Slashdot and so on, Windows XP was slagged off all over the place, instead users preferring Windows 2000. There were good arguments too - Windows 2000 had all the good things about XP, and the benefits of XP were more consumer oriented things that geeks would rather turn off anyway.
So I now find it laughable that on these same places, history has been rewritten to hold up XP as being the best MS OS ever!
The criticisms of Windows 8 seem to be far more like with XP, rather than say Vista - namely it's not that it's bad, just that users here don't see anything particularly special, and they'll happily stick with the current latest version, at least for now. (Though as the article notes, there are improvements to the OS that are nothing to do with touchscreens. Personally I'd be happy to finally get the damn pause button when copying files!)
Re: That's gotta hurt
"People like one MS better than another - therefore Apple are best"
We heard this Apple fanatic logic with Vista, and it didn't make sense then, even with Vista being awful. It certainly doesn't work for Windows 8. At least move to something like Linux, where you do get choice, rather than dumping one big company for another with less choice.
People prefer what they know
Let's face it - geeks liked Windows 2000 and moaned about XP, but years later, XP is hailed as some kind of best MS OS ever...
And whilst we might all agree that Vista was bad, it's worth noting that Vista did introduce a lot of the ideas that are now liked in Windows 7 - it was just badly implemented, or the hardware at the time wasn't up to it.
To add to that, a forum more likely to be frequented by geeks are probably less likely to care about more consumer oriented features. It also seems to be the case that people like us are more sceptical about new updates. And does not liking the MS Store mean people actively think it's horrendous, or just that they don't have any interest in it?
As for the Surface - what about all the other Windows 8 tablets and hybrids? If 35% would buy a Surface even before we consider the other Windows 8 tablets, that's pretty good going!
I also don't see why the phone survey is bad news - it's already clear that Android is way in the lead anyway, but if Windows 8 can take second place over Apple, that's surely a win.
Re: Apple has peaked
Given that people have reasons to buy phones at different times, it seems rather risky to base a model assuming that everyone wants to upgrade at the same point once every two years...
(It doesn't help that they can't even stick to that - it's been 2.5 years since the iphone 4... Also unfortunately, the iphone 5 is really the 4SS - still an incremental upgrade.)
Why would they be forced to licence their OS to third parties?
Re: Deal breaker
"I say Apple leads there now, and so do the stats."
Reference? You may be right, I'm just curious to see the breakdown in sales.
"Android may have an overall bigger market share, but that's spread across lots of phones from lots of vendors"
Being spread over lots of phones is irrelevant. As for manufacturers, Samsung alone sell more Android phones that Apple's entire phone sales. By about a factor of 2, in Q2 2012.
As for profit:
"which is the prime indication of market power"
No it isn't. Yes, Apple do well in profit, but I don't care about that. The only people who should care are Apple shareholders. I'm not an Apple shareholder, so this isn't the prime indication for anything I care about.
I don't know what an elephant is.
I do agree there is a difference. Apple are out to make profit selling overpriced phones to a niche. Google want a platform on as many devices as possible. I agree entirely. (Plus I don't think it's just about information - they also get a 30% cut through Google Play, and it seems they do want to build on this to create a general sales portal for every smartphone - even if that wasn't their original intention, it's one that will create money for them.)
Your Oracle analogy isn't valid, as Sun hardware is a minority. Here, Android is by far the dominant platform. Not catering for the minority of Apple users is no more relevant than not catering for Symbian, Blackberry, J2ME or anyone else (iphone being number 2 is very recent, only as of this year - and that's in quartery sales, not installed userbase - and they're way behind Android, making them a niche like anyone else).
Re: Deal breaker
"Or it could simply be that Symbian is dead as an operating system"
It's mostly phased out, though there's still a massive userbase. If it was just Symbian maybe, but dropping out all other platforms suggest something more.
"why use J2ME when maps runs just fine in pretty much any smartphone with a web browser?"
Right so years ago I could run it on any dirt cheap Java smartphone, now it only runs on more expensive smartphones that run the right kind of OS (not pretty much any). Although fair enough, if the website works better with mobile web browers these days, there's less need for specific "apps".
"and have apps for the 2 biggest platforms (which Google had pre-iOS6, and will have again whenever they get their app done)."
They only had it for Apple because they paid for it, and there's no evidence they plan to cater for the minority of Apple users (and sorry, it's misleading put Apple on the same level as Android - Android is way ahead, and if they only want to cater for the biggest, they might as well just support Android and nothing else).
Plus if it works with the web browser, why does Apple need a special app? Android does because you get more features - the sat nav. But why does Apple need an app for something every other platform can do in the web browser?
I don't see evidence that these days, Google are so concerned about getting their maps on every phone - and with Android so dominant, they don't really need to, I guess.
Re: Apple eh?
Oh yes, it did annoy me that the minority of Mac users looked down at more advanced platforms as being merely "games machines".
The joke is that now, Apple fanatics think their itoys are cool because they can post to Facebook and play games, and write off Windows PCs as being "boring business machines"!
Re: Deal breaker
"My sense is that Android is never going to trump IOS as the luxury segment's phone of choice because this is Apple's core business and not Google's."
Who says IOS leads here now? A large number of Android sales are coming from the high end phones like the S3 an Note. I would be interesting to see what sales are in say, the market of phones over £200. (Although looking at "luxury phones" is a flawed stat anyway - it just rewards Apple for being expensive.)
Also, if maps were more important, I'm wondering why they seem to have pulled the maps versions for other platforms - years ago I could run the app even on a low end "feature" phone, but the J2ME no longer seems to be available on their site. Similarly I can't find the Symbian version any more. It seems they're making some decisions to keep some things Android only now.
Re: Apple has peaked
Swype improves my typing speed significantly.
And I get style too.
Now your turn - what "substance" does it have, that no other platform does?
Re: Apple has peaked
Whilst the missed estimates don't mean much, it is true they are declining. Apple's sales started small, and gradually rose to a peak around end of 2011 with the iphone 4S. Nokia had been number one for years, but they had now ditched the amazingly successful Symbian to the still small WP, which meant for the ill-defined "smartphone" category, Apple and Samsung were now neck and neck for number one. The media were hysterical over Apple's possible success (never mind that they never praised Nokia for being in that position for years...) And whilst Android was ahead of iphone, at ~50% share, with the demise of Symbian there was a chance that iphone could at least become a platfom with amost 50% share.
Except, that was just a bump right after the new iphone release - in 2012, their sales have dropped dramatically (a drop 10 million in the last quarter alone). Samsung sales have rocketed, such that their Android phones alone now outsell Apple 2 to 1. Android's share nears 70%, with iphone falling to ~16%, and even WP is now increasing. There was always the possibility that iphone 5 might give them a huge boost again, but it doesn't seem it will change the long term pattern.
And yes, 5 million in 3 days right after a major new generation isn't anything special. Samsung (and Nokia, previously) do a million or more a day all year round.
I agree with the OP - it seems that their peak has passed. And that was a peak that was never number one in the phone market.
Re: Hey Tim
Indeed. But then Apple would no longer be able to run stories of "X% of users on latest IOS within days, Android users have to wait!"
The reality may be that Android users are better off waiting until the OS is tried and tested by the manufacturer for their specific device, rather than being rushed out all at once just to get some marketing spin. Unfortunately the reality doesn't seem to make as good marketing.
But if that's your attitude, why spend money on the most expensive phone in the first place? You could say that of all the functions in phones. Stick with your paper, chart, map and atlas.
Or alternatively, get a phone that doesn't run out of battery so quick like an iphone...
Re: Vendor lockin
Open may be not the norm, but it's worth noting the advantages of such platforms when we have them.
Not sure what nonsense you're on about having to redesign UIs for every device - on Android, you write apps sensibly, so it scales to any resolution. It's on IOS that people seem to have locked themselves into a single resolution, which has now backfired as these days, IOS runs of loads of different resolutions (3 iphone resolutions, and god knows what for ipads).
The problem with itunes is not DRM (which the OP didn't mention - nice straw man), but when itunes scrambles the files. It doesn't have to do this when used on a sensible OS like Windows, but it does seem to be the default for managing software on ipods - so perhaps the OP is referring to a similar thing for iphones.
"Someday, the more rabid fanatics and extremists in this industry might at least have the decency to give him a little credit for that."
*Splutter* Jobs receives nothing but praise and credit, for all kinds of things he did or didn't do (and no, it wasn't Jobs who got rid of DRM). It's particularly funny that you say this, when you aren't even willing to give credit to open platforms.
Tell you what, I'll give thanks to Apple, the day I hear Apple fans give thanks to all the other companies that have helped or influenced Apple products. But you know what? I never ever do.
Re: BBC reporting that Android Apps will run on AMD Win8 devices
Typical BBC spin - the idea that Windows 8 doesn't have much software, and comparing simply by what's in the MS store, is ludicrous. It's true for ARM, but not x86 - and since the article is about AMD, it's not clear we're talking about the ARM version.
Seriously - Windows, the dominant platform for software by far, but we have the BBC writing fruitcake nonsense like "Microsoft is working hard to convince developers to make apps for Windows 8"? This was probably written by a journalist who thinks "App" is short for Apple, and doesn't realise it means application, i.e., software...
I have to laugh - years ago I criticised "app store counts" by pointing out it would be ludicrous to say that Windows didn't have much software simply because there isn't any in an "MS Store". I never realised we would end up with people actually making such a stupid claim.
Anyhow, interesting article anyway - the bit about Android on Windows that is. This would be beneficial to both Windows and Android imo.
Re: Battery life
http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/03/acer-iconia-w700-w510-windows-8/ describes x86 Windows 8 tablets, quoting "more than 8 hours" for a tablet, and 18 hours plugged into a keyboard dock (similar idea to the Asus Transformer). Suggests they are aiming for the same level of battery life.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/windows-8-tablets-using-clover-trail-chips-have-a-10-hour-battery-and-three-week-standby-time-says-intel quotes 10 hour battery life for Clover Trail.
Would also be interesting to see performance comparisons of ARM vs Atom, similarly for the GPUs - even today, it would be interesting to see what things are like for tablets vs netbooks.
There is no "RT x86" Windows - x86 Windows is the full Windows 8, so you'll be able to run things from anywhere, just like a normal Windows PC.
What isn't clear to me is what the plan is for x86 software that is built using their new "Windows Runtime" API - whether that must be distributed via Windows, or if that's only for the full-screen "Metro" applications, or not required at all. Anyone got a ref?
"Not that it would make much difference if Nokia had bought into Bing, given Nokia’s falling market share"
Yawn, and once again let's pick a flawed stat. Apple has falling market share, why not report that?
Nokia are still the number two phone company, second to Samsung, not Apple, which isn't bad going. That's a fact.
Any why only count the US market for WP share?
As for Bing, well there's a point. Bing has never been bad, it's just been ridiculed because it's not Google. If Apple maps hadn't been a complete shambles, would it have received the same ridicule, simply because it wasn't Google? I doubt it - another double standard. Though personally I think Nokia maps has the edge over them all.
You're conflating two things - the idea of having somewhere to download software, and the term "app".
For the former, Apple were the first to do it as an OS vendor, but they weren't the first, including in mobile - places to download apps were commonplace. This was more a business move, as they get to take a 30% cut, and that's the reason MS are now trying to do it.
The reason they didn't before it because if MS proposed a plan that let them get 30% cut of all software, they'd have been widely criticised (especially with all the antitrust suits they had). But no, because it's Apple, they get praised for the same thing - which now means MS can get away with it.
As for the latter, no, the term "app" was commonplace (and the fact you have to argue with an ad hominem shows you have no valid argument). And if "app" is more common now, that's not because of Apple, it's because of the media using the term a lot, and because of ordinary people using it. Not once have I had an Apple employee say to me "app", but countless times I hear it in the media, and from other people. Language is not defined by an organisation, it is defined by what people in general say.
Mythical Apple firsts are common, but it's ludicrous when it gets to the point of saying that Apple now invented or popularised aspects of people's language!
So no, Apple didn't popularise it, it was ordinary people and the media using a term that is easier to say than "program". And no, Apple can't be credited with thinking of it first either.
Two largest players?
Must have been talking about Samsung and Nokia then.
(Before anyone says, the distinction between "smart" and "feature" phones is a marketing one, and they all have ARM processors anyway).
Re: Hmmm revenues?
Who cares? Also note that the article says "top apps", which tells us little about how things are for the average developer.
As a user, a platform is better if there's more stuff available for free. That's a good thing about Windows, tonnes of free software - much better than 15 years ago when even simple stuff was crippled shareware. It's what happens when a market matures and becomes mainstream - more software available for free.
And as a developer, why limit yourself to just those two? Stats also show Nokia Store doing better than Google Play, or in some cases better than Apple too. Indeed my own experience is that I get a staggering *one hundred times* as many downloads on Nokia Store than on Google Play. In fact, I even get more downloads for Windows on my website than for Google Play. I think it's a combination of there being still a massive userbase (Symbian number one platform until 2011, and still outselling Apple after that), but less competition in terms of numbers of applications.
Re: ...but how many of those downloads got erased seconds after trying the app?
One thing I don't like on Android is the large amount of ad-ware. Fair enough if people want to make money, but at least be honest about it - most of these don't mention it (though you can sometimes tell, if an app requires network connection, when there's no reason it should). (And it's not just a dislike of ads - already a problem if you have limited screen size on a mobile device - there's also issues such as wasting battery life.)
This includes really trivial applications like for a torch. Thing is, I'd happily write a free and ad-free app myself to do the job. But the sad thing is, no one would know about it - the already established apps would be at the top of the search results, and since they don't admit to having ads, no one would be aware of the advantage of my ad-free version.
It doesn't help that there's very limited search tools - only a choice of "paid" or "free". Thankfully with Android you're not limited to Google's site - so sites like F Droid are useful, for open source Android software.
Android may have more applications than Symbian which I used previously, though in practice it was easier finding something ad-free for Symbian. My point isn't to criticise Android - it's just another example of how raw application numbers is not a useful metric.
Re: Spitting distance is right!
My prediction is that once Android app numbers have overtaken Iphone, the media will stop making a noise about this as if it was the Most Important Thing Ever.
Or alternatively, they'll switch to something else - such as including numbers of songs and films, and The Reg has now done.
Application download site numbers are pointless - on non-Iphone platforms, you're not restricted to the one site anyway (does Windows have no software, because there isn't an "app store"?), plus who cares about raw numbers, it doesn't tell you about the quality. Most "apps" seem to be pointless website wrappers, and why does it matter if there are 20 apps to do the same thing, instead of 19? I've also got to laugh that for years Apple users were saying it doesn't matter that Windows had more software - even though the issue there was that Mac OS did lack particular applications, and no one simply went on about raw numbers.
Numbers of songs, films etc is even more pointless. If I want to download a song, I can do it from loads of sites - it doesn't affect my choice of platform. I wouldn't want to download onto my phone via a mobile network anyway - I'd much rather download to my computer, and then have it available for all my devices.
"only 4.7 per cent of Android apps were downloaded by tablet users"
Remember that's %age of Android, not %age of tablet users, and Android has a far higher share than Iphone.
"It's a combination of Nokia's Maemo, Intel's Moblin, and the two companies' joint MeeGo project, none of which enjoyed any market success."
Well, it's reasonable to say they never became major mainstream platforms. Though I note that the Nokia Meego N9 sold one million in approximately 76 days. For context, the original iphone sold one million in 76 days, a figure that was hailed by the media as being an overwhelming success, and it was then used as a benchmark for "market success"...
(Although I guess it would have been better if the media had said the original iphone didn't enjoy "any market success" either.)
Re: Need Apps
"Apple got in first."
Apple were first? I don't think so.
And Apple are a counterargument to your market share claim. Apple have always been catered first by many companies writing software, even though they've never been the number one platform. Indeed years ago, when their share was even smaller, it seems they were even more likely to be catered for, further disproving the link between application support and market share.
"Microsoft will fill third place."
What is this "third place" stuff, as if the market can only support two or three platforms? The market has long had more than three platforms. The current situation of Android first, Apple way behind, and MS behind them is relatively recent - until 2011, Symbian and Android were the two leading major platforms, and there was also Apple, Blackberry, WP. And don't forget Bada either.
Indeed for years, Apple were third, fourth or even fifth place, and only became second when Nokia ditched Symbian. I don't recall people saying there was no room for Apple, or that it would fail to gain traction.
Re: Seriously though...
Apple are the market leader in phones? You should check the stats - they never have been.
Re: Apple still have the lead on apps
"developing for Apple iOS first seems to be the order of the day"
The problem with your argument is that Apple seems to be catered for first even for applications that aren't sold for money. Indeed if anything, this is more common among applications given away for free, consider the website wrappers "apps", and the applications give to access a company's service.
So it's nothing to do with monetizing (which seems a poor argument anyway, FUD similar to "But Linux users don't pay for software" nonsense). Nor is it to do with market share.
The URL tells me all I need to know - if they only pick two platforms, it's a flawed article.
"Just bear that in mind when deriding Apples Maps application."
Why? Are Google Maps and Apple Maps paid applications?
"Apple were basically forced into this by Google which refused to allow them to use the same features that Google themselves were allowed to on Android devices. Basically, Google wanted Apple to pay for a more limited version of what Google has."
Heaven forbid that Google not want to give away their product for free to the competition!
Next time I see someone saying they like the software that comes with OS X, I'll tell them it's Apples fault for not making it available for free for MS to ship with Windows...
"by Google deciding what they could and couldn't have on their own phones."
Um no, it's entirely up to Apple. But other companies aren't obliged to write software for Apple. Or perhaps you can point me to the version of Apple maps that is (a) available for Android, WP, Symbian and Blackberry, and (b) may be distributed by phone manufacturers free of charge? (Not that anyone would want it...)
Re: "obsessed with Apple's marketing events and Apple's branding".
Though I suspect most people don't think in terms of buying "Android", they're buying a "Samsung".
Re: It is a popularity contest
Glad it's not just me that noticed this. It really is astonishing when you start noticing it - pretty much every American TV show that shows computers or phones will have Apple logos in it. Some shows seem to have a logo present in every other scene.
I know it's just product placement, but this kind of advertising seems like it would be more effective on a subconscious level than direct advertising.
And it is quite jarring and off putting to have to watch this in so many shows.
Re: It is a popularity contest
"Apple are one of the few companies to have cracked the cross-gender thing. MacBooks of all kinds appeal to boyz and grrlz equally."
I think that's true of technology products in general. I mean, a laptop is a laptop, whether it's a Dell, Samsung, Apple or whatever else. Thankfully unlike many products, we don't have "men's laptops" and "women's laptops".
(Though I sometimes wonder that things would be like that - Apple included - if laptops were around since one hundred years ago.)
"This was his to lose, he didn't have to do much to keep Apple on top of the game."
Note that Apple were never on top in the phone market, either by company (it was Nokia now Samsung) or platform (it was Symbian now Android). Android was way ahead of Apple before this new guy took over. I agree things do seem to be getting worse though, in the last year.
Re: Just Pissed
"Open to suggestions to bring home the message to Apple."
Buy something other than Apple. Nokia WP have great mapping solutions - but also I don't see that Google are at fault anyway, so Android is an option too. There's no obligation for them to have to write applications for Apple, especially when they're in competition. Should we complain that Apple haven't released Apple maps for Android (or anything else) (assuming it was any good)?
(And Apple get more than their fair share of software support anyway)...
"Storm in a teacup. You want Google Maps - go to maps.google.co.uk and put it on your home page (10 seconds)."
OOI, why don't people do this for every other web page? Instead it seems that every website and company is advertising an "app" just for Iphones, and I never understood why they (and only that platform) needed this.
I agree, you might as well use the webpage. In neither case will you get features like offline maps or free satnav, that Android and Nokia have had for months or years.
Can't they just run the Java one?
Can't it just run the Java one?
My 2005 bog standard feature phone ran Google Maps. Today even some dirt cheap Nokia S40 would run it. It was the full thing, only lacking in sat nav (which the Iphone version never had anyway).
It didn't matter that Google hadn't written one especially for my make and model of phone, because it was Java, and worked on any phone. So presumably Apple users can just run this.
(Seriously though, I do remember the days when companies would support all makes of phones. Now it's just "Get this on your Iphone", despite it being a smaller platform than the likes of Android or S40 - sorry, like most people I don't have one. Even Google are at it, their web page only seems to show support for mobile software for Android and IOS. Despite this news item, it seems their only non-Android support is for Apple.)
Checked Wikipedia for the dimensions - interestingly the Note 2 has a smaller width, at 3.17" rather than 3.266". It's the height which is bigger, 5.95" instead of 5.781".
Also interesting to compare the pure diagonals: you get 6.74" for the Note 2, and 6.63" for the Note. So whilst the display is 0.26" larger, the diagonal of the device is only 0.11" larger. (A similar thing is true comparing the Galaxy Nexus to the S3 - the latter has a larger display, but the device doesn't feel that much bigger.)
I don't understand this idea that a tablet must be "big". A tablet is a handheld device that isn't a phone. Of course you can do more with a larger device, but that's also a trade-off with portability. It's true that some people might see this as the worst of both worlds, but for some, it may be a good compromise.
Some people want a 10" device, some people a 7" device. Some a 4.8" device, and some a 5-6" device, and some have more than one of these devices to get round the problem.
On that note, I wonder if that will finally put an end to the "Android takes longer to roll out updates than IOS" or "Old Android phones don't get the latest OS" FUD. Are all the pre-Iphone 5 owners now so happy to have been updated to the latest version?
It seems to be better to evaluate whether each older device is ready for the latest OS, and only release when fully tested, rather than rushing to release it for them all on the same day, just so you can make some media headlines and use it as a marketing statistic. This is especially true with thousands of Android devices, and also the point that manufacturers like Samsung and HTC run their own OS built on top of Android, rather than vanilla Android, so it would be foolish to try to implement and then test that on the same day of the basic Android release (for most Android phones, the initial Android release date is about as relevant as the Windows RTM date - you still have to factor in the time for manufacturers to test on their devices).
Re: facepalm yourself
So MS are being criticised because their ultra-portable high spec laptop and tablet hybrid will have an RRP higher than the price of a second hand bottom of the range laptop?
Yes for many people, the latter may suffice, but that's an argument against any new laptop on the market (including Apple).
Windows 7 works fine for me.
Re: OMG They are talking to el'reg?
No one is saying they should be ignored, rather the issue is disproportionate coverage. They should be treated like any other multinational consumer electronics company - there are others, and they sell at least as much as Apple.
Re: Apple users still win...
I find it interesting just how many Iphone UI workflows involve copy/pasting between a 3rd party application (another example would be replacement keyboards like Swype - since on a feature phone, you can't replace the built-in keyboard, they instead run as a 3rd party app that you type in, then copy and paste into the other application...)
But it's particularly funny when you consider for years, the Iphone couldn't even do copy/paste - and the response from fans was to say "But why would you want to do copy/paste? Iphone has new 'paradigms' that means it doesn't need copy/paste". Yet now it has copy/paste, it seems they need it all the time.
And they say it has the best UI?
"which along with its Android operating system is locked in a fierce battle for supremacy with Apple in the world of mobile technology."
Battle for supremacy? I think it's pretty clear who's won when you look at sales figures. The battle will be more who in the market will compete for 2nd or 3rd place. (Apple only became 2nd place very recently after Symbian was dropped by Nokia, but it's unclear they will remain their long term.)
Even if that was true, I note you've also just said that many Apple products are also therefore "shit quality"...
"over the design of the companies' respective telephones"
So did Apple win on the "rounded rectangles" patents? Or was it all just software patents? I've seen conflicting reports on this. (Not that the software patents in question aren't also all utterly trivial issues.)
As for applying the patents to other kinds of products, one has to wonder - if you can get a trivial patent simply by doing it "on a phone", i.e., where prior art is discounted because it wasn't on a phone, how can that patent then be applied to other kinds of products? Seems a case of having your (rounded) cake and eating it...
Re: what Samsung should have done...
No, even if one of them was an Apple laptop, in many cases it would be hard to tell the difference without seeing the logo. And no, not because anyone else copied Apple. The areas in which they are similar are not things that were done by Apple first. The form factor of a laptop was not invented by them. There are certain cues that one could use - e.g., Apple laptops tend not to have page up/down keys, and I assume they have their own keys instead of the Windows keys for obvious reasons. But you couldn't tell that from a distance, and a random person wouldn't necessarily know that - plus there are just as many differences on could pick out between Samsung and Apple phones.
Copying the logo would be fair game for a lawsuit (though that's trademarks, not patents). But they *didn't* do that. Please catch up to what the story is actually about.
Indeed, that shows that people *aren't* copying Apple. If companies really copied Apple, then every laptop would have a tacky light-up logo on the back. Thankfully for those of us who care about having something that looks tasteful, they don't.
Re: Too much on their hands
Well indeed, a 2005 feature phone can do Google maps. But can you get sat-nav using Google maps on an Apple phone? Presumably you're stuck with Apple's system (I assume it does do turn-by-turn satnav).
Re: "the wound it inflicted on Samsung"
"Scroll back a few years - who in their right mind really bought Samsung phones - very few - now (post copying Apple) they are seen as much more attractive."
A few years ago, who in their right mind really bought Apple phones. Yep that's right, a few years ago (pre-2010), Apple's sales were far less. And I suspect that Samsung still outsold them back them too.
"But - that can change"
Things can change for Apple too. And you've got it backwards - unlike Apple, Samsung *don't* have all their phones investment on one platform - whilst they're having phenomenal success with Android, they also offer low end phones (so called "feature" phones, which are still really low end smartphones), as well their alternative smartphone platform Bada, and will be bringing out WP8 phones. And they're working on Tizen, a new Linux based open source OS.
Re: idealized google maps
Why should Google give away their products for free to the competition?
Yes, it's true that Apple are "having" to do this, because Google aren't writing software like satnav for them free. So what? The bottom line is that major platforms like Symbian, Android, and now WP have had free satnav for years. About time that Apple finally caught up, rather than relying on costly 3rd party apps, or just giving users only the basic Google maps that you could get on a feature phone 6 or so years ago.
Re: @ Mark C Casey
Yes, Google Maps wasn't so good in 2005. So basically you're saying, Apple is seven years behind the competition. Thanks for clearing that up - I agree.
I'm not sure what your point is - yes, this judgement is based on the competition, but *of course* it should be. Products are always based on comparing to the competition.
I mean, if no computers existed, then a 286 PC selling for one million pounds would be quite revolutionary. And at some point in the past, a supercomputer would have had that much processing power.
But we don't think that, because of what you can actually get in the marketplace today, in 2012. I don't see why Apple should be held to a different standard.
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