> The biggest problem with Microsoft's phone strategy is that they were far too late to market.
Microsoft's first phone OS was in 2002. In 2007 they had 42% of the US smartphone market.
'Being late' was not the problem.
1249 posts • joined 27 Apr 2009
> The biggest problem with Microsoft's phone strategy is that they were far too late to market.
Microsoft's first phone OS was in 2002. In 2007 they had 42% of the US smartphone market.
'Being late' was not the problem.
> When web apps were first being developed there was really only a choice of Netscape or IE
It sounds like you were rather late to the game. Before IE existed there were several browsers: Mosaic, IBM WebExplorer, MacWeb, ...
> The fact that the standards bodies chose not to adopt MS extensions but go another way is really a large cause of the problems we have now.
Nonsense. There were established standards but Microsoft added extensions (as you say) that were deliberately non-standard is order to encourage web developers to make IE-only sites. For example FrontPage (a bought in product) was changed to generate those non-standard extensions to ensure that IE-only sites were really easy to make.
>> "For users that upgrade to Windows 10, the engine will be evergreen, meaning that it will be kept current with Windows 10 as a service."
That sounds like a subscription model.
> Internet Explorer started life as Spyglass Inc "Mosaic" browser code.
Almost true. Spyglass said that they originally planned to use Mosaic but wrote new code for IE.
MS did not pay Spyglass though. The deal was that Spyglass would get some amount ($5?) for every copy sold. MS then 'gave it away' and claimed that none were 'sold'. Even when MS claimed that it could not be removed from Windows they also claimed it was not 'sold'.
> I am damned happy it does not
IE 6, 7, 8 and/or 9 can run on Linux.
Because Windows cannot install more than one version of IE at one time it was useful to use Linux and install multiple versions so that web pages could be tested on the variations that occur with those different versions.
> No, he is right. It's Duck Tape (brand name).
It is not only a brand name but it refers to the material used in the tape. 'Cotton duck' is a type of tightly woven cotton fabric, often used for tents. The name derives from the Dutch 'doek'. 'Duck tape' is made from duck fabric. 'Duct tape' is any tape which can be used to seal ducts (such as air ducts), and may be 'duck tape', 'Duck Tape (tm)' or other.
> I suppose I should welcome the fact that MS still try to produce their own compiler ...
The MS C compiler was originally bought in from the people who made the Lattice C compiler.
> But Panasonic have just brought out a better camera phone on Android
I never understood why Panasonic did not sue Nokia over their trademark LUMIX. LUMIA is only slightly rearranged in the last letter.
> Acer AC700 is a paperweight in August 2016
So you are saying that it will stop working on that day, exactly like all the XP machines stopped working last year ?
> This is tosh. Almost every app that was written for WP7 ran on WP8 unchanged - I know because I switched phones at the time and installed almost everything I had on the new phone.
> I understand that a large company may opt not to make a Windows Phone version of their app for whatever reason - because they don't perceive it as financially viable, because they want to keep exclusivity for their own smartphone OS, whatever.
It seems to me that there are many reasons for not developing for Windows Phone. This starts with the complete discontinuity that MS has wrought with zero compatibility from WM 6.5 to WP7 and then again from WP7 to WP8. Now they are moving to 'Universal Apps' so WP8 apps will be another dead end. Then it is alleged that MS has paid developers for WP versions of iOS and Android apps. Other companies will also want that subsidy so will wait for MS money rather than invest their own.
> If there's something you're after specifically - again, regardless of platform - why not try building it yourself? There's enough cross-platform toolkits out there, and your creation just might be the next killer app...
Many cross platform tools require licensing, either per seat, or per end user. Others require development in non-native languages or are web-based. Either way they require a large investment in time and/or money. Also, of course, they need testing on each target so you are suggesting that instead of buying a phone that already has the app available they should write their own version and buy several phones to test it on.
> unwavering support for Lumias from Anonymous Cowards on this website.
No, there is just one, otherwise known as TheVogan.
> When was the last time you heard about a customer rebellion against Microsoft ?
Last time I looked at the XP usage statistics.
I have some Verbatim diskettes (5.25") that are clearly marked 'Lifetime Warranty'. Is that the lifetime of me or of my computer ? No. It is the lifetime of the diskette, some sort of average, maybe a year.
> Meaningless, because they haven't defined it.
That is correct, they haven't defined the terms. Elsewhere this is know as 'weasel words'.
> So the lifetime of the device means until they drop support.
The phrase used by MS was 'supported lifetime of the _device_', not 'supported lifetime of the operating system'.
> those people with Surfaces and transformer type Windows tablets generally have a keyboard/trackpad to hand.
The keyboard on Surface is an extra cost option, though it seems to be required to use the device effectively. This keeps the apparent price down while increasing the actual price..
> iPad user and many Android tablet users do not have the input devices to hand.
There are many more options, for iPad especially, because they can have bluetooth keyboards and keyboard/covers. These are also less restrictive, Surface keyboards must be connected in landscape while bluetooth allows portrait mode or disconnected use: eg tablet on aircraft table and keyboard on lap.
> a platform that has commands that are so unforgiving they have to be in the right case, in the right place
It sounds like you wouldn't cope with modern computer languages either. You should stick to COBOL - that is case insensitive, though you do have to put stuff in the right place (such as columns 7, 8 and 12 and not beyond 72).
> more than one distro which needs > 756MB RAM to install.
That would be if one is using a graphical installer to install a distro that includes a (or several) GUI.
OTOH other distros will install and run on RPi model A with 256Kb with a GUI (LXDE).
I used to run FreeSCO Linux on a 386 with 20Mbyte RAM booting from a diskette (1.44MByte). It was a router/firewall that ran other services.
> Surely the UEFI is on the SD card? So you just replace the SD card with one loaded with whatever OS you like.
On current computers the UEFI is in ROM and switching the disk does not replace it. That does not mean the the Pi will implement UEFI in ROM, nor that they will make it locked.
Apparently a cut-down version of Windows already runs on the Galileo Board in some crippled way (no display). Microsoft have said that on the Pi it will be 'similar to other boards'.
> As long as one has the freedom to remove Win 10. Why all the bitchin'?
Current Windows RT (Windows on ARM) devices are _required_ to be UEFI locked without the option to unlock them.
> Presumably the version will be an App store only version, reducing its usefulness.
It appears to be an IoT version - no GUI. It won't be running any AppStore Apps.
> Well, since the update will not come for about a year, any phone would be at least a year old or any owner would be able to know that they bought a phone which might not get an upgrade.
I think that the first part of that is correct, up to the 'or'. Any phone would be a year old because they won't be buying a phone that they don't know if it will get an upgrade. As developers will drop WP8 as a target, moving on to 'universal apps', the app store for WP8 will become static, just as WP7's did when WP8 was announced.
At the time of WP8's announcement many commenters were stating that WP7 would get the upgrade in spite of WP8 requiring dual core, which no WP7 phone had. In the end all they got was some new colours and box sizes with 7.8. an '8.10' may be similar.
> Fool me once shame on you (7.1), Fool me twice shame on me (8.1)
There was also the complete deadending of WM6.5. No phones or apps could go to WP7. WP7 and apps were deadened by WP8. Now only some phones will be upgradable to W10.
Also it is unlikely that 'universal apps' will run on WP8 so effectively WP8 phones and apps are dead. Just as WP7 phones went unsold, except in the bargain bins, after WP8 was announced and was not going to be an upgrade, now WP8 phone sales will tank and developers will drop WP8 as a target.
> "You mean I buy the computer now but then I have to pay extra for Windows 10 in a year?"
That has happened before. Some small (8") Intel tablet were being sold a few years ago (2011?). These came as dual boot with Android and Windows 7 but were advertised as 'Windows tablets with Office'. Small print mentioned that Windows and office were _trial_ versions and after some months a full version of both would need to be purchased.
> How is MS supposed to know when each of our hardware warranties are expired?
By obtaining that from the OEM. In particular it may be that the OEMs will configure the warranty details into new builds, and/or report them to MS to associate with the licence key.
> What if your HW warranty is already expired when you obtain a free Win 10 upgrade?
> The term "supported" in the context given has something to do with MS and Win 10.
MS did not say 'the supported life of the Operating System', they specifically referred to _device_ support life.
> 2. For the supported lifetime of the device, you will ALSO get every following versions of windows for free.
That was not said at all. What was said was:
"""once a Windows device is upgraded to Windows 10, Microsoft will continue to keep it* current for the supported lifetime of the device** “at no cost”."""
* 'it' refers to _Windows_10_ (normal pronoun rules). They will keep Windows 10 'current' with updates. New versions you will buy.
** 'supported lifetime of the device' means 'until the warranty expires'. After warranty expires you will pay for updates and new versions.
> Wasn't it selling MS/PCDOS before they'd actually bought it? (QDOS)
Initially MS licenced SCP-DOS as an OEM for 8086 based computers. It was a breach to sell it on 8088 computers (such as IBM-PC). later the purchased all rights for (allegedly) $50,000 and SCP has the right to sell MS-DOS with a computer for free (ie no payment to MS). When the SCP factory burned down they started selling MS-DOS plus a V20 chip (faster 8088 compatible) and MS had to buy them out of the agreement, allegedly for $1million.
> At what point is it no longer the same device?
It was no longer a _supported_ device when the warranty expired. This may have been when the warranty period expired or when you opened the case or when you changed one piece of hardware.
> Undercutting Netscape by giving IE away free with their OS,
And not paying Spyglass who wrote it for them.
> I'm willing to bet this is what MS told the manufacturers in advance of these announcements to cool them out. Dell, HP, Lenovo, et. al. are all in on this, because it's supposed to keep them relevant.
What is more likely is that the OEM version of 10 will expire at the end of the warranty period (the _supported_ life of the device) at which time a charge will be required to keep Windows working. The problem that MS have with XP and 7 is that the users of these are no longer sending money to Microsoft or OEMs, and may never do so again.
In the 90s and 2000s MS could rely on most users paying for a new version of Windows every few years. Now they have to enforce that or face declining revenues with the majority staying with XP and 7 as being 'good enough'.
> That clearly means as long as machine is supported by the OEM who shipped it. That's probably longer than the base warranty period.
It does not say "the supported life of the model", it specifically says 'device', singular. When your warranty expires so does this 'no cost'.
It may well mean that if your Windows 7 machine is older than the warranty then you will begin paying immediately.
> When the Surface RT came out a lot of the analysts were saying that MS *had* to have a ARM tablet, Android and Apple devices, running ARM were so popular and making so much money that MS would be a dead company by tomorrow.
It seemed to me that RT was not so much about selling Windows ARM tablets and was more about stopping the OEMs making ARM tablets with some other OS. Following on from the success of killing off Linux Netbooks by threatening to remove all discounts on all MS products if the OEMs did not 'loyally' change to using the regurgitated XP, they could use a similar threat on Dell's Android tablets and HP's WebOS.
And it worked.
> It's not really the same as an EFB is it.
No, but there are many more pilots than designers. Thus there are many, many, more tablets and other mobile devices than workstations associated with designing, building and flying aircraft.
You seem to be arguing that 'desktops will never die'. 'Desktop' is merely where the device is placed, just as 'mainframe' refers to the structure that supports the electronics (ie the main frame), and does not describe the class of computer except by association. 'Workstations', which are used by designers, architects, and other professionals, happen to now fit on desks and may use the same components, or be the same machines, as 'desktop PCs'.
> The desktop remains the place where almost all productive work is done, such as CAD, architecture, large scale mapping, process control - just to name a few. None of these tasks work on your mobile or tablet.
It used to be that those tasks were done on a different class of machine called a 'workstation'. These were often desk sized machines (rather than something small enough to sit on top of a desk). It happens that the desktop toys got more capable. Now workstations and top end desktops are about the same.
With vehicles most productive work is done with trucks, buses, tractors and cranes. None of those tasks work well with cars, yet there are many more cars. That doesn't mean that trucks will disappear and no one has said they will.
> Do you really want to fly on an aeroplane designed by someone shuffling parts about with their fingers and thumbs on a screen the size of a mobile phone.........
Interestingly many, perhaps most, pilots carry a tablet or similar to manage their flight plans, check lists and other procedures.
> At the time of The Great Browser War you had to purchase software before you could download anything.
That is not true. FTP was perfectly adequate to download stuff. FTP came with MS-DOS and Windows. You did need to have an ISP and they usually gave out a free copy of the TCP/IP stack plus a browser, usually Netscape or IBM's WebExplorer.
> He specifically identified Netscape's need to sell its browser for its cash flow.
Actually most copies of netscape navigator were free 'beta' versions. Businesses had to pay for navigator but individuals got it free. Netscape made most money from their range of servers and services.
Much free software came on magazine diskettes (later on CDs) or was available for the cost of postage from several places. Mosaic was free too.
> And what kind of market share do these Google alternatives have?
Almost none and that is not because Google have eliminated competition (as Microsoft did) but because users can, and do, make a choice.
> It was also possible about 15 years ago to buy a desktop running something other than Windows, thus avoiding having IE pushed on you as the default browser... but very unlikely to happen for the average man.
.. because _only_ Windows machines were in the retail shops, OEMs _only_ made Windows machines, or were punished by Microsoft via loss of 'discounts' or 'joint marketing'.
> Back in the day there was effectively, for nearly everyone, no choice other than to buy a Windows PC. Businesses used it, nearly all PCs in a computer store were Windows based.
That was not because Windows was the only operating system but because Microsoft drew up contracts, discounts and 'joint marketing' with OEMs and retailers that eliminated competition. This was done, for example, with 'discounts' that applied to all copies of Windows but were removed if even a small number of machines were offered with another system. Linux Netbooks were eliminated because loss of discounts on all other machines would cost the company millions.
>> requiring makers of Android smartphones to bundle its search app on their devices.
No it does not. There are plenty of Android devices that do not have nor require Google search installed: Amazon's Kindle, Nokia's X, many small makers.
Certainly manufacturer's can sign up to provide Google's services but they don't have to, Android code is available without these.
"""Alibaba says that several Chinese handset makers have adopted the YunOS and the company is providing financial incentives for smartphone makers to do so. However none of these manufacturers are the major smartphone brands; they’re all budget Chinese handsets catering to the very low end of the market.
In 2012 Alibaba announced what was then called the “Aliyun mobile operating system” (AMOS) a “forked” version of Android. """
> which keeps the prices of smartphones artificially high.
What this seems to be claiming is that Microsoft would _pay_ Android manufacturers to have Bing bundled. That does not mean that prices for the phones would be cheaper, only that a) the manufacturer would make more profit and b) the phone would not sell.
> will not only be WAY PAST awesome
Way past having some awe is being full awe.
> This is not the same corporate design team that designed Windows 8, just for the sole purpose of making money.
Windows 8 was designed to overcome the perception of Windows Phone. Consultants reported that WP was not selling because the UI was unfamiliar. Windows 8 was intended to make that UI the most familiar UI on the planet. Then users would _demand_ all their devices have that UI. So much for consultants.
> I'd say 50 bucks or less is a reasonable price for Windows 10.
Before Surface was released the usual clowns were predicting great _cheap_ tablets from Microsoft. The first gen devices only became cheap when MS wrote off nearly a billion dollars and put them in the bargain bin.
So much for the usual clowns' predictions.
> What's Android for? To lock you into the Google ecosystem
It actually doesn't. Kindle runs Android with no Google, even Nokia's X was Android without Google. Many other phone vendors produce Android phones without Google.
> Even Linux vendors try to lock-in you into their products.
You will have to explain that because it looks like dogma without any foundation. Which Linux vendor does anything to prevent a different vendor's version of Linux being installed ?
> So why MS is evil, and Google is not? Just because MS asks money for its products?
No. That is not the reason that MS is evil.
> Sure, Office formats were not designed for interoperability. Nor Photoshop PSD, Autodesk DWG, or many other application formats nobody complains about...
Actually DWG was complained about for many years. Autodesk also had AutoCAD DXF which _was_ designed for interoperability:
"""AutoCAD DXF (Drawing Interchange Format, or Drawing Exchange Format) is a CAD data file format developed by Autodesk for enabling data interoperability between AutoCAD and other programs."""
> even PDF was not an open standard until 2008 - and not fully. Yet nobody complained about PDF.
Actually PDF _was_ designed for interoperability. It is _Portable_ Document Format and the specification was freely available since 1993.
> Most cameras outputs their own RAW formats,
RAW is a direct dump of the sensor data, of course they are all different, even between models of one brand. But almost all cameras will also produce standard JPEGs, or only JPEGs, or both.
> But now Office formats are fully documented, XML based, and documentation is no scanty at all.
It is certainly not 'scanty'. Bloated is what it is. Several thousand pages because is contains a mishmash of 30 years of ad-hoc development. For example there are three specifications within that of 'tables' because MS Office implements them in 3 different ways.
While the OOXML spec has been around for a while there were many years when MS did not implement it so other programs had to implement the standard _and_ 'what MS does', adding to the complexity.
> Also standard are good, but they also imply a usually slow approval process and risk "design-by-commitee" issues.
While MS Office has followed a completely different path over the years of ad-hoc changes.
> Especially because then any non-trivial applicatio required a deep knowledge of the underlying "OS" and hardware, and often access to some documentation not readily available.
Complete nonsense. 'Back then' there were dozens of computer magazines and piles of books aimed at hobby programming. I still have a collection. Apple II, BBC, Atari, Amiga, Amstrad, Sinclair were all catered for extensively with many coding examples in many languages.
The problem came in the 90s when Microsoft convinced schools to teach children to be consumers of computer software, principally Office, rather than teaching computing (including programming). Magazines similarly changed to promote software products rather than programming - advertising was a more important source of revenue than sales to hobbiests.
The Raspberry Pi and Arduino (and similar) are bringing back the days of hobby programming.
> Linux ... the lack of good and easy to use IDEs doesn't help at all.
It may well be that you are completely unaware of the languages, IDEs and many other tools that are available on Linux, but 'lack of good and easy' is not one of its attributes.
> For another Office alternative try Kingsoft Office.
Kingsoft Office is now called WPS Office (by Kingsoft) and runs on Windows, Linux, Android and iOS.
> People's complaints about non-Office is that they don't render Office documents properly. I wonder why that is.
The main reason for different renderings is that the fonts are not available and substitutes are used. Another is the differences between printer settings and capability. This can happen between Windows machines even when both are running Office.
> Actually, if there's something MS does very well is compatibility - especially at the binary level.
Given that the topic is mobile devices then Microsoft has been very poor at compatibility. Windows Mobile 6.x apps were completely killed by Windows Phone 7, which in turn was dead-ended by WP8. Not just binary incompatibility but the complete tool chain.
> While in other OSes unless you can - if you can without extensive changes - recompile your apps you have very little chance to run whatever was written or compiled just a few years ago.
That is just nonsense dogma. I have programs written 20 years ago that still run.
> Are you really claiming this software was designed before then?
I don't see where he claimed anything about when the software was written. But NZ wasn't 'out' just in the mid-80s, that lasted until 2010.
>the "Non-Aligned Movement" is an actual thing, with actual members, and NZ isn't, and never has been, one?
He didn't say the "Non-Aligned Movement", he said the "non-aligned group".
> As for Key being left of centre, all that really tells us is something about where you (hilariously arbitrarily) consider the "centre" to be.
Key is left of centre when compared to most other countries. In some cases in the past the Labour party has been to the right of the National party. That's what happens when almost everyone is trying to be centrist.
> Greenwald also denied that he was being paid for his trip to New Zealand.
Greenwald stated on TV that his usual fee of $25,000 was being donated to a charity. So Kim Dotcom is paying the fee and also, presumably, travel and accommodation.
> "The idea that I got on a plane and flew 40 hours ... because I developed a desire to influence the outcome of the election is frivolous,"
His desire is irrelevant. Kim Dotcom has stated he wants to influence the outcome of the election and it is Kim that is paying for all this. Greenwald is a part of this. Actually Greenwald is probably doing this mainly so he sells more books.
> the results of mass surveillance in New Zealand
"the results of mass surveillance _of_ New Zealand" - corrected that for you.
It may well be that traffic originating in New Zealand is monitored and is available to NSA operatives. But that is traffic that is between NZ and other countries and can be collected in those other countries. If I don't want my searches being seen by the NSA then I should not use Google, or Bing, or Yahoo.
> Voice and guesture based commands work just fine too - as per my Xbox One.
In what way is that a "desktop system in an office or home environment".
> the latest Kantar figues
Kantar have very selective figures which do not match up with quarterly total sales.
> 9.9% UK market share for Windows Phone
Which is down from 12%. But even that 9.9% is old news:
"""according to the latest statistics from analyst outfit Kantar Worldpanel Comtech:
"""Windows Phone saw its market share slip too, following reports that sales of Lumia handsets are starting to slow. In June, the Microsoft mobile operating system had a 7.5 percent market share, compared to 9.1 percent the previous month and 9.5 percent in June 2013."""
> Nokia never sold any handsets at below parts cost.
You don't know that, they may have. But 'below parts cost' does not represent the only way to 'sell at a loss'. The finished product is _much_ more than a list of parts, it includes assembly, packaging, transport and marketing and maybe more. What is known is that they made massive losses which includes selling off some models at less than FOB:
> Nokia ended up paying Microsoft more in license fees than Microsoft paid Nokia in platform support payments.
That would only be true if each licence were around $35 (1billion/30million). As this is about twice what others have said the licence would cost then it is unlikely. Also that is irrelevant. If Nokia had to pay licence fees then that is part of the cost.
> If Windows Phone had always been license free then Nokia would have made a profit.
If it were licence free _and_ MS still paid then a $billion dollars then they _may_ have broken even at least in some quarters, but not all.
> This was to plug the gap between their really basic 3rd world type handsets and the premium Windows Phone range.
While there were some 'premium' models in the WP range most of the sales were in the 'bargain bin' range.
"""The report also notes a sequential and year-on-year decline in average selling prices for devices, indicating that those who did buy Nokia phones shied away from higher-priced models."""
> You mean the 'arse-end of nowhere' like the UK and the EU top 5 for instance?
There may well have been a spike in sales in a few countries over a short time, but this was primarily because the prices were below cost. Nokia never made a profit from Windows Phones in spite of being given a $billion a year. If products are discounted enough then there will be sales, but doing this long term is unsupportable (which is why Nokia brought out their Android-X phones and sold the loss making division to Microsoft).