272 posts • joined Thursday 15th January 2009 14:31 GMT
"Diesels. Pollute like it's going out of fashion "
A 10 Year old Model, possibly. One built by an American manufacturer, probably. Even a modern diesel that hasn't been properly maintained - maybe.
Modern, European / Japanese Diesel Cars < 7 Years Old that have been properly maintained? No. And newer ones are even cleaner.
Not to mention that Diesel engines generally last 2-3 times longer than equivalent Petrol/Gas engines.... You wouldn't buy a petrol car that had done much more than 150,000miles and expect it to last very long.
You *would* expect a decent diesel to easily do twice that. (I have a friend with an 04 VW Bora PD TDi that has done 450,000miles and is still going strong) So how much pollution is caused by the manufacture of all those replacement Petrol cars?
Getting Back ON topic - it's good to see that they are going for a more "affordable" car, but I agree with other posters on here that by the time it gets to the UK it will likely be £30,000 If not more.
Currently the Vauxhall/Opal Ampera looks like the best of a bad bunch, but god knows how much that will be by the time they've added "Blighty Tax"
NTSC & PAL
It isn't just Never The Same Colour twice that makes the NTSC picture look terrible, its the lack of horizontal lines. Old PAL tellies might flicker a bit if you've got your face less than 1 foot from the screen, but I haven't done that since I was 8.
Even sat 12ft back from an average sized Yank telly you can still see huge gaping gaps between the scan lines.
I was in the US on a course a year or two back, and the picture quality on the cable I was getting on the 21" telly in my hotel room made me want to puke.
Having adverts interrupting the programs EVERY FRIGGING 5 MINUTES made me want to go on a killing spree. "Hi I'm Bob, Why don't you come on down to 'Bob's emporium of crap noone wants', and I'll give you a free Coronary Heart bypass!"
How the hell do they put up with it?
@EC, @Gary F
It seems the latest craze of the serial "find some little thing wrong with electric vehicles" brigade is the ~40% efficiency of our national grid to the socket in the home, binging such statements as:
Charged by... By EC Posted Monday 1st June 2009 11:00 GMT
All charged by a national grid which loses the majority (64% by memory) of the power between the powerstation and the socket.......
Stupid people By Gary F Posted Monday 1st June 2009 12:19 GMT
Mains powered vehicles generate twice as much CO2 as a normal petrol vehicle......
You aren't comparing Apples to Apples.
EV's convert 80-85% of the electricity that they take in into motive force. Even taking losses through the National grid into account that's still 30-35% efficient.
ICE powered cars only convert about 15-20% of the energy stored in petrol / diesel into motive force.
So EVs are actually about TWICE as efficient.
Re: White Elephant indeed?
And it isn't just Carbon Monoxide / Dioxide you're shifting to a central generation source either - it's all those nasty sulphurous & Nitrogenous compounds too, which are arguably worse for the environment that just the CO&CO2.
There are a number of very promising methods for trapping and even using the waste gases produced. e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnOSnJJSP5c
It would be way easier to install something like this a a handful of power stations than to hundreds of thousands of cars.
Plus if this new Anaconda thing takes off, we could see a sizeable portion of our electricity being supplied from wave energy in the fairly near future.
LOL @ the Fanbois
Fanybois make me smile.
Regular Person: "I don't want an iPhone because it can't ...."
Apple Fanboi: "SILENCE! THE iPHONE IS THE BEST! IF IT CAN'T DO SOMETHING THEN IT ISN'T WORTH DOING! YOU ARE A MORON IF YOU WANT TO DO SOMETHING THAT THE iPHONE CAN'T DO! EVERY DEVICE EVER CREATED WITH A TOUCH SCREEN IS JUST COPYING THE iPHONE! ANY PHONE RELEASED FROM NOW UNTIL THE END OF TIME WILL BE A CHEAP KNOCK-OFF! I WANT TO SUCK OFF STEVE JOBS AND SWALLOW HIS STICKY MESS!"
Seriously - that's how you come across.
After what they did in 2000, they can sod off if they think they're getting any of our money.
We used to be a 3Com House - Had Netbuilders and Corebuilders galore, plus Superstacks at the edge.
In 2000, they just threw their toys out of the pram, dropped all support of their installed kit and Fucked Off.
We were completely screwed and had to rebuild our entire infrastructure.
3Com will get no money from us - Ever.
@They fail to explain one thing
"A little law concerning the conservation of energy tell us that either way we will need the same amount of energy whether it comes from petrol or electricity"
Er.. kind of. You aren't taking efficiency into account though are you? ICEs are wildly inefficient... Far less efficient than the charging of a battery from mains, which discharges into a motor - even taking power loss through the National grid into account.
You are making the assumption that 1MW of power produced at a coal fired power station, and delivered to your home / filling station via the national grid produces the same amount of CO2 as, say 20 Fossil fueled cars producing 40KW of power. This assumption is utterly ridiculous.
"...and since we produce electricity using fossil fuel..."
Correction: "we CURRENTLY produce MOST OF OUR electricity using fossil fuels."
Electricity can be generated from dozens, if not hundreds of different sources, and while the majority of it is currently produced in gas, or coal fired stations, this can change, and is changing - albeit quite slowly.
Wind, Tidal, Wave, Nuclear, Solar, Geo-Thermal and a few others are already being put into use all over the world. Hell, if we wanted it badly enough we could chuck a satellite up in orbit to convert solar energy to microwave and beam it down to earth.
You also aren't taking into account micro-generation - i.e. solar, wind and hydro in the home... Almost anyone can get solar PV panels put on their roof(all you need is a roof within 45Degrees of south), or a wind turbine in their garden (if they have one) - several rural areas even have hydro-power from rivers & streams - essentially free (post-setup costs, of course) energy with 0 emissions.
YES there are issues with the manufacture of Lithium Ion batteries and the emissions caused during manufacture.
YES there will be a greater load on the national grid (But they are going to have plenty of notice of the changes and should adapt)
YES there are issues for people who don't have garages or some other means of charging their vehicles.
NO it isn't perfect, but there isn't going to be a perfect solution, certainly not around the corner anyway.
Plug-In hybrids are just a stepping stone - they have the ability to be 100% electric and POTENTIALLY 0% CO2 emissions for 90-95% of their use (i.e. commuting to work) while being able to fall back on petrol (or preferably diesel) for the odd longer journey.
Nope - it was introduced for safety (Average Cars back in 1965 couldn't handle travelling AT 70 safely let alone faster. http://www.information-britain.co.uk/famdates.php?id=280
"As for your idea that nobody drives at less than 80mph I think you're just trying to justify your own driving."
Please re-read my statement - I said I don't know anyone who does - not that no-one drives less than 80. I wish that were the case then I wouldn't have to complain about the F**king arseholes doing 50 in the middle lane or 60 in the outside, and never pull in.
However, let me Clarify my statement: I don't know anyone, who drives a car, on a motorway, when there are no police around, and the road is clear, and it isn't raining, snowing, icy, foggy or whatever, that doesn't drive less than 80MPH, by the clock.
And no I'm not trying to justify my own driving - I, like just about anyone else who does a lot of motorway driving usually cruise at 85 by the clock (when clear etc.etc.) which by the speed on my GPS is 78. I make no apologies for it.
Bizarrely my car actually gets better MPG at 85 than at 75 too. :-?
@ Vendicar Decarian
"Don't worry, in 20 years the maximum highway speed will be 40 mph, thereby reducing fuel consumption by 50-60 percent."
What delightful drivel.
I assume from your use of the word 'Highway' rather than 'Motorway' you are in N America. I could see it happening there - your limits in places are already laughably low. If they tried to drop the Motorway limit over here, the people wouldn't stand for it.
Personally I think that motorway speeds should be increased from 70 to 85, and then policed properly - Most modern vehicles cruise at 70MPH+ nowadays anyway. I don't know anyone who drives less than 80MPH, MANY people drive 90+.
I call BS on that. Unless Mr Dingel has somehow broken the laws of physics!
The amount of electricity required to crack hydrogen from water FAR exceeds the energy that can be harnessed from said hydrogen, be that in a Fuel Cell, or by burning it.
IF (and it is a HUGE IF) he has figured some way of doing it, then he has done the impossible and created the perpetual motion machine.
You see, even if someone devised a 100% efficient method of cracking water, AND a 100% efficient method of harnessing the energy from the Hydrogen (Both of which are completely impossible), you would still only get back the same amount of energy you put in. (In this case, a 12V battery)
I hope I'm wrong. I really do. But that will also make Newton, Einstein, Hawking and every other physisist in the world wrong too.
Lovely, now I want to know...
HOW MANY MPG WHEN THE BATTERIES ARE FLAT!?
All you see anywhere are the MPG figures for doing 500 miles with a full tank of petrol and the batteries freshly charged.
Also, how long till they put a proper (read: Diesel) generator in there? We Euro's aren't backwards in our attitudes to diesel like they are over the pond.
More Lynching (@AC Monday 23rd February 2009)
"Or because there friend said so on facebook"
You mean THEIR !!!!
Their : (Belonging)
There : (Location)
They're : (They Are)
I sort of agree with your statement however.
<MINI RANT> And you mean "I", not "i" !! </MINI RANT>
What the hell? Where are the real world tests?
How well do they run Crysis etc?
Plus those graphs are difficult to read, there are three different tests being shown in the same graph, all bunched together with no seperator. Plus there are different devices being shown with the same colour FFS!
Plus what we are seeing at the moment with memory bandwidth is similar to what happened at the beginning of the shift to DDR2. DDR running at 500+MHz with tight timings totally kicked the arse of any DDR2 on the market. Gradually DDR2 got better, lower latencies and it took over the speed crown.
Same thing will happen with DDR3 - but the beauty of the AM3 / AM2+ scenario is that I can pop an AM3 CPU in my existing board with DDR2, and in a year or so when DDR3 is cheaper and faster I can upgrade without having to buy a new CPU.
"Fastest production car round the Nurburgring - Dodge Viper"
The only reason that thing goes so fast is it has an engine out of an 18 Wheeler!
It probably cost the GDP of a small African country to get round it too.
The Land Speed record is currently held by a British built car, British Driver, British Designer. (Thrust SSC) It does over 700MPH. Doesn't make it a good car to own though does it?
Raw Power (Which is all US Cars are good for) does not a good car make.
And if We're going for random no-substance facts: the Dodge Viper is number 69th on the Top Gear Lap times (Granted in wet conditions), in fact the fasted US car is the Ford GT, in 17th. Of the Top 16, 3 Are British, 1 Japanese, the rest are Euros.
It isn't meant for us! (Neither are Ferrari's)
I agree that most american built cars handle like a wollowing hippo, but this has been designed by Europeans.
The only American thing about the car is that it was built there - Henrik Fisker is Danish and Bernhard Koehler is German. Fisker also was chief designer on the Aston Martin DB9 (British / German), and I challenge anyone to say that that handles badly or looks bad - also no-one complains about that costing so much.
The Karma isn't supposed to be for the average Joe, it's supposed to be an electric supercar, hence the price. (And putting aside the top speed of 125MPH, it is for all intents and purposes a supercar) The Tesla is also outside of the vast majority of peoples price ranges, but at least the Karma has 4 seats, a boot, and CAN run on fossil fuel if you want to go further than 200-odd miles without a 6-hour stop to recharge batteries.
And guess what, those celebrities that used to buy huge gas guzzling Ford / Dodge tanks or Euro Supercars, and switched to Toyota Pious's for the green creds are going to be all over these things, so there will be no shortage of customers throwing their money at Fisker so he can come up with something that I can afford in a few years.
These vehicles are intended to prove a technology is viable, and to generate the company money so that they can develop the technology for the mass market. Fisker and Tesla have both stated that they plan to mass-produce vehicles for regular people, but they can hardly do that without cash flow can they?
I, along with 98% of the population will probably never earn enough money to be able to afford to spend £65k on a Karma. I also won't be able to buy a new Ferrari, Lambo or Aston Martin, but I still get excited about new technology that comes about on them because I know that eventually the technology will trickle down to regular cars.
Remember 10-15 Years ago, when Disk Brakes and ABS were only fitted to high end cars? Well now they are pretty much standard fit on everything.
Give it 5 years and we should start to see similar viable tech that we can ALL afford.
@ Andrew Norton & Jim Murphy
You're totally missing the point. You can't remove the electric parts... It IS an electric vehicle.
The Petrol engine is decoupled from the drive train completely - it just charges the battery (Or in those rare situations where you need to go faster than 95 - Provide a boost)
And seriously, unless you drive a lot on the Autobahns in Germany, want to take it to a track, or just drive like a tw@t, you've no need to go above 95 except in very rare overtaking circumstances.
In reality you could remove the petrol generator and replace it with a diesel one - much more efficient.
You could even completely remove the fossil fuel engine and replace with more batteries, or a hydrogen fuel cell, or ultracapacitors or whatever new technology comes along for the generation / storage of electricity in vehicles.
This is an extremely important step in the move away from fossil fuels. When Fisker start manufacturing more affordable vehicles based upon the quantum drive train I'll be all over them - my commute every day is < 25Miles, and as I'll be charging the sucker off a wind turbine in the garden, the only time I'll be using fossil fuels will be 5-10 times a year when I go on a longer journey. Bargain.
Typical blinkered Yankie BS (Apologies to the few sensible, informed Americans on here). Your Country is 100% controlled by the oil companies and the media (which is owned by the oil companies - and the Bush Family) So you've not got a clue about the rest of the world. "America Rules", "Everything American is great", "Diesels are Dirty", "all evil people speak with forced posh English accents" (Thanks Hollywood - Wankers)
I've been to the US on a couple of occasions, hired a number of vehicles, and hated every one of them. On a business trip to Florida I hired a "Compact" (hah!) Crysler. (Can't remember the model, but it was a 2 door, with a 2.6L petrol/gas engine).
Outside the thing was bigger than a 5 door Focus(Considered a Family-sized car outside of North America), but inside was TINY. There was no leg room (I'm 6'), and the back seat might as well not have been there.
Performance was complete sh1te too. Any Euro / Jap 2.6L Petrol would get 0-60 in < 10Secs and would be able to hit 130MPH easy. This thing was like driving a tractor. The auto box just revved the crap out of the engine all the time and never applied any power.
Similar experience driving a 2.4L Focus while in Canada (US Model obviously) - The Focus' we get in Europe have different engines and gearboxes - thank F***
My old 1.2L Renault Clio would have out accelerated them both.
It's no wonder Americans are all driving around in 8L penis extensions - they think the only way to get any power is with more engine displacement.
To summarise - I'd rather be driving around in my 1.9Turbo Diesel PD Golf "Tin Can", producing <130g/km, 55MPG (45MPG US) than the effing tanks you drive over there.
Are they actually happy with that MPG rating!?
New non-hybrid cars coming out now kick this ugly arsed thing in the teeth.
e.g. The new Mk6 VW Golf Bluemotion gets 74MPG
It's got a 77Kw (103BHP) engine (More Powerful than the Honda, and lighter)
It's emissions are below 100g/km meaning it will be road tax exempt in the UK!! http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/HowToTaxYourVehicle/DG_10012524
Also without all those heavy batteries and that huge ugly chassis it will be a damn sight more fun to drive too.
I'm not saying the new golfs are pretty, but at least I wouldn't be embarrassed to drive one, and I KNOW they're fun to drive
Should be roughly the same price too.
I thought Honda were more forward thinking than this.
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