143 posts • joined 11 Dec 2008
Well Goat Jam, perhaps that amount of money has been spent, but was it purely spent on connecting those homes? No, it was spent on the satellites, on backhaul, on core infrastructure as well as connecting homes. Now the current government will build on that infrastructure, spend an extra gawd alone knows how much more and they'll claim that they gave us faster, sooner and cheaper while failing to mention that without the infrastructure already in the ground that their plans just can't work...hang on, even with that infrastructure their plans can't work, so bloody responsible eh?
If the heading off at the pass operation in the nation's high-density basements impacts the blackspot remediation communications minister Malcolm Turnbull has spent so long insisting must be done, it will be interesting to see he treats his board and new CEO. ®
In the same way as he treats his employers, the voters, with absolute contempt.
I have been following LOHAN since inception and what the project has told me is that it is extremely complex getting a craft to the hights required. It further strikes me that given the high degree of complexity and planning required for this project, how bloody nearly impossible it is to design and build a rocket system to deliver a capsule to ISS.
I appreciate that LOHAN is restricted by resources availability and it's really great to see how having a limited budget forces those involved to come up with far sighted ideas. But, it just makes me even more amazed that Space-X etc. can do what they do.
"Finding a deviation from the Strong Equivalence Principle would indicate a breakdown of General Relativity and would point us toward a new, correct theory of gravity."
I get from that that the opinion is that the 'old' theory of gravity is incorrect. I thought the point of the experiment was to test if one or the other is correct, or at least to point to one being 'more' correct than the other.
I had a RPM calculator back in the late 70's, it was a Novus. I've never seen or heard of them since.
It's a big land
I agree that Australians are not big at getting out and protesting. However, it's also a big land and as such very difficult in many cases for people to get to protests and most particularly when they are sprung with short notice and bugger all publicity.
I have no excuse regarding time as I am retired, but where was I supposed to be, not just a few kms. down the road for sure. Nope, I would have needed to drive hundreds of kms to get to my local member's office and back. Not an option for me, apart from which, I can't afford to buy the fuel. Others, not in my situation, had to work.
Wouldn't you think that the Chairman of NBN would be aware that the NBN fibre roll out is/was more than about internet speed. It's about replacing Australia's telcommunications infrastructure to bring us into the 21st. century.
It's about giving all Australia stable and high bandwidth telcomms. the fact that that also gives us faster internet (that actually pays for it) is a bonus. It's not possible to have high speed, high bandwidth telecomms. whilst still having any copper in the circuit at all.
All this talk about the likes of g.fast, what a joke, g.fast requires shortening the copper even further than is so far proposed, so what's going to happen, they install g.fast and magically all of the nodes creep closer to the premises, or will we just install more nodes between the old ones. No way.
If the idea is to replace the telecomms. infrastructure, then do so, no compromise. Forget band aid fixes that may appeal to the voters.
So, in short, either replace the existing infrastructure or, do nothing. I'm sure our governement actually would prefer to do nothing, but, they made such a song and dance about NBN during the election campaign that they have to be seen to be doing something, all I am seeing is them pissing lots of money against the wall.
I agree that when in public that one cannot have an expectation of privacy and that anyone may photograph you without permission. Lets forget for a moment the privacy issues and instead, why not ask, if someone comes along and shoves a camera up your dress, could that not be treated as common assult rather than under indecency laws?
Re: Labor FTTP fanbois are the problem
I don't think that in general FTTP supporters fail to acknowledge that the original plan had faults. I think they rather expected Mr. Turbull who waxed on and on about the faults prior to the election would by now have had a plan to rectify those faults.
People may not connect to more than one RSP, in fact I think it would be unusual for people to do so. I can however see people having more than one service, maybe streaming TV, maybe a government service, who knows, that option has been taken away now.
It has been pointed out to you many times that if 47% of premises connect at 12Mbps then that by definition means that 53% are connecting at speeds higher than 12Mbps which is not at all bad. As for the 5% of connections at 1Gbps, who bloody cares, it's an option available to the user, if no one takes it up it doesn't make FTTP a failure and by your own figure taken from the prediction, it won't be zero, but how many will connect at 500 Mbps, or 200 Mbps these are the very users that make the NBN fibre cost effective and viable.
Re: Link speed?
I too am on the NBN satellite service. The nominal speed of which is 6 Mbs up and 1 Mbs down.
The latency quoted in the article is a little higher than I would expect, it usually sits around 600-700 ms.
Of course, if these users are sharing just the one connection between 10 computers its going to be vary slow.
In my home the connection is shared between two boxes and if we both hit a browser button at the same time, there is an appreciable slowdown in response time, imagine that when 10 boxes are all hitting the net at the same time.
In response to another poster, the equipment is supplied by NBN and is standard using a 1.2 metre dish. It remains the property of NBN and may not be interfered with or modified. So any or all changes to the setup may only occur from the ethernet port on the 'modem'.
Sadly, it appears that the available bandwidth on the satellite as supplied by NBN is getting congested and unless the government decides to allow NBN to purchase more bandwidth then shortly all the available satellite slots will be used and no further users will be connected to the satellites (Ipstar and Optus). As a consequence of this speed complaints are starting to appear on the Skymesh (ISP) section of the Whirlpool forum and I'm sure that all satellite users with all ISP's (RSP's) are being affected.
Pits and ducts
The article did fail to mention that the amount agreed to also included the rental of the pits and ducts to run fibre through, I think it may also include an amount for remediation of said pits and ducts too, which, by the way, Telstra has been very slack doing.
If, it's technologically possible and economically viable and if the government ever release a plan that allows it. FOD isn't even in the policy, so how in hells bells can you say that anyone should get it. It's simply not available, but then again, neither is FTTN.
Re: Starters orders
Oh mathew42 or is it -mathew-, spouting all the old rubbish again and again all over the world.
53% of users havn't chosen 12Mbps and that's exactly what it is, a choice. The LNP plan offers no choice, you pays ya money and ya get whatever you're lucky to get and no refund if it's less.
I'll take the 100/40 plan thanks over a nodelotto plan anytime.
I see no problem with having a standard NTD, it means that all homes with fibre have the same. Otherwise there would be a complete hotch potch of different NTD's out there and who knows, you buy a house and when you move in you find the old owners have taken 'their' NTD with them and you have to get an RSP to replace it, sometime.
Some RSP's charge a setup fee of, I understand, up to $100 dollars to supply the NBN service, others I know of charge nothing. So looking at my home moving scenario above, you move in to a home with standard NTD, you phone an RSP ask for a service and a short time later, you are online. Some Whirlpool posters report that they have had a connection in minutes. this against moving in, no NTD, contacting an RSP, paying them good money for an NTD and install, wait at least two days and get online.
Really, when you are having some 12 million of these units made, what is the real difference in cost between 1 port and 4. As for the cost, well in the end, the consumer is paying NBN for the unit or they pay the RSP. I just think it more efficient from the users point to have a standard unit installed at the same time as the fibre.
Battery backup, I have to say I have some doubts about that one. It will certainly allow some people to feel more secure knowing they can make a call in a blackout and remember, some people will only have a phone and not take the internet, they will just want the phone to work like it always has. But, the cost to provide to all is silly, it is going to be an option to opt in or out soon and not before time.
The act of failure to deny something is not the same as confirming something. So lets not speculate.
he is going to stay on as caretaker until after the election, if the NLP gain office, Turnbull can't fire him as he's already resigned. If Labor win, then Mr. Quigley could be asked to remain. Who knows.
Re: Not fit for purpose
Your comments are valid. Except, you knew that was coming, this is predicting the winner in a two horse race.
Yes, they may be only accurate out to three years. But what if, the analysis shows that after three years FTTH/P is proceeding well and works well and also shows that FTTN is useless. At that point, it really doesn't matter what the situation is going to be in 2030. FTTH has a greater probability of succeeding than does FTTN over the same timeframe, seeing as one method starts from being useless, it sure 'aint going to improve.
Now, having said all of that, I'm sure you are aware that I have a bias. I'm not going to get FTTH in my lifetime where I live, but I do want it for everybody else.
Conroy and Whirlpool
Conroy didn't need to have a great grasp of technology, as he said, before bed each night he'd read Whirlpool forums. There he could get far better briefings and far better counter arguments than he would ever get from his public servants. Good on him for seeing the opportunity to tap into a resource and credit to him for having given credit not only to that source but by naming some of the individual contributors within Whirlpool at a Senate Enquiry.
Well here in Aus. our illustrious opposition party say that UP TO 25 Mbs is more than enough for most people, so we don't need that new fangled fibre stuff, well except to the nodes after which decrepit copper is easily good enough, so, keep your high speed fibre no more research needed.
Re: Free - well, can I get 10% off that?
You are correct, it is not free. It would be better to say that it will be connected at no direct cost to the consumer.
Yes NBN will have loans to service and indeed will give the incumbent governement a return as well.
On another point, many of the changes that the Libs. will make to the current NBN plan will require new legislation, pits and ducts etc. I am wondering how the half Senate election will go. If the Libs. don't get the numbers in the Senate it may be a tad difficult to get legislation through, then, of course, they could blame the Senate for making them complete the FTTP.
I think it's rediculous, the existing NBN FTTH is a complete package, a complete plan. People have been looking over it for years and problems rectified. Now, we have the Libs. with a plan and we have to ask questions about it, it's not complete, it hasn't been properly considered and the buggers expect to be in power in Sept. and have this 'new' NBN installed faster than the current one that is well under way.
The fundamental question that Malcom needs to address is, when will they release a complete, full and ready to go plan?
My idea is this:- you attach a weight to the balloon (hopefully not very heavy), attached to this weight is a cord (of whatever length), on the other end of which is an insulator between two sprung switch contacts. The idea is, the balloon pops, the weight falls, it reaches the limit of the cord length and snatches the insulator from between the two contacts, contact is made and the rocket fires.
Re: Thanks to Dave & Richard
I agree with Persona non grata, very informative.
What I like is that it has put the current build into perspective for me, why NBN did some things the way that they did and why it slowed the rollout so much. Why the contractors are having problems with skilled staff etc. etc.
What really seems a shame to me is, NBN fibre rollout is fast approaching the point where most of the teething problems are solved, only to get dismantled and start with a whole new set of problems.
So, cancelling it and doing FTTN not only wastes a lot of the startup money, but also destroys the skillset that has been built up until now. It makes me wonder, having read the article how quickly NBN would have ramped up and how many premises would have been passed by end 2016 if they are/were able to continue.
Seemingly the accelerator is only just now being lightly pressed down.
The election will bugger that idea.
I presume they mean the FTTP NBN and not the FTTN NBN.
FTTN will require powered cabinets dotted all over the place, I have seen estimates as high as 60,000 required, I don't know how close to reality that is. However, it will require a large amount of powered cabinets, which, I understand will have battery backup.
I also understand that lead acid is the type of battery to be used. Given the adverse environment inside those cabinets I wouldn't think the batteries would last a long time.
Lets say it's two years each battery and each cabinet has two. Lets suggest 50,000 cabinets, 100,000 batteries each needing replacement every two years, Two things, it sounds increadibly expensive and also environmental vandalism. The question is, has the cost of replacing all of these batteries regularly (including disposal) been included into the overall cost of the FTTN?
I appreciate that like the ongoing requirement for copper line maintenence this item is OPEX and not CAPEX, but if a comparison is being drawn between FTTP and FTTN then the question is valid.
Re: You'll Regret It
'So as this is tax payer funded'
No!!!! I keep posting against this misapprehension. NBN is not tax payer funded, it is funded by way of Bonds (loans) that NBN are going to repay when they make a quid. In fact, they are committed to giving the government a return of 7% on the money, which is not bad at all for a utility. Certainly a lot better than the fortune that will be spent replacing the rotten copper to allow FTTN to be completed.
I really can't see where you have plucked the figure of 90 billion and growing, I follow the NBN saga pretty closely and I havn't seen any such figure, in fact, I've seen no figure apart from NBN naysayers' postings.
On a related note, a couple of posters have referred to their tax paying for NBN, not true, NBN is funded by loans backed by the government, those loans are to be paid back when NBN becomes a money spinner, with a return to government as well, 7% is the figure.
So, no tax dollars have been or will be spent on NBN.
Many of us are concerned about the state of the existing copper here in Australia, it looks like since Telstra have privatised they have not spent much in keeping the copper up to scratch, FTTN relies on last mile copper and that could turn out very expensive given that the above report says that residences with rotten copper will get fibre. If I understand correctly, patching fibre into a FTTN network is a bit tricky, I'm wondering if, once the project of FTTN is started whether it will be found that a very high proportion of homes will need fibre, if so, it may have been cheaper to have just done them all in the first place.
Just my thoughts.
For an individual it sounds to me to be expensive. I assume that if I used it for email that both parties would have to subscribe.
I don't think I'd have much chance of convincing my email contacts to spend a monthly fee to receive my emails.
For business, yes, I can see it. But then, I presume that a business may get volume discount plus a tax claim.
I once set up my system to send emails using PGP, I gave up in the end as I didn't know anyone who could receive my encrypted emails.
Even if encrypted email was set up by default in a client, if there has to be an exchange of emails to supply the 'Keys', then I can't see the ordinary 'Joe Blow' doing it.
Not all animal farms in Australia are huge places.
Where I live there a many small acreages 10- 100, mainly run by hobby farmers.
These would be prime targets.
During drought time many of these places are just too damned small to support the amount of livestock on them, the owners are always waiting for rain tomorrow, they don't often buy in feed, they don't sell because prices are low.
The animal welfare mob could stop their ute in the road, fire up the helicopter and send it to take photo's, then take appropriate action.
I can't see this device being used with cattle stations as the target. I can see them using it on small acreages and there are thousands of them.
My mental picture when I first started on the article was, there is a tank of this stuff and you just shove the server in the tank then use a heat exchanger from the tank to elsewhere. I suppose though it may slow the hard drive rotations a tad. However, I can see that if a server was totally redesigned to accomodate this stuff, that mental picture of mine may not be so way off beam.
I am using the NBN interim satellite solution. I shall never get fibre and I doubt very much if I will ever get wireless. The schema behind NBN is that we all end up with pretty good broadband supplied by the govt. and NBN at no cost.
How can this be so?
It's pretty easy and it's very good. The government borrows funds on behalf of NBN. NBN use those funds to supply internet connections to the population, fibre, wireless and satellite.
NBN will wholesale internet access to ISP/RSP's, NBN will profit from this, except for the satellite service.
NBN will repay the loans that the government borrowed and give the government a return of 7%.
The satellite service will be cross subsidised by the other wholesale services that NBN offer.
The end result being that the cost to governement (the people) is zero dollars, indeed the end result will be a return to the governement.
Enter Turbull et al. Destroy the NBN concept, let Telstra supply FTN to much of the populace. NBN owes the government lots of cash but have had their financial legs kicked out from under. They then cannot service the debt let alone give a return, neither can they cross subsidise satellite.
NBN folds, the government has to pay the debt for the loans, satellite becomes government subsidised and somehow, we all win?
Please, I am just an old age pensioner out here, is there something about the Turbull scheme that I have missed that makes it so much better for me and all other Australians?
Similar to my invention
What I cunningly did, was put a glass container out into daylight. It soaked up CO2 and after a few days I had a lovely green biological material in the container. One that could be turned into foodstuff or with further processing alchohol.
Should I patent this unique process?
I have read the article and all of the well informed comments. I'm very surprised that no one has mentioned Australia and NBN. So I will.
We had a similar situation to UK. A telecoms incombant that had been privatised and was a virtual monopoly.
Poor legislation enacted at the time of privatisation that stopped just about anything being done.
So, the government decided to break that monopoly by replacing most of the copper with a mix of fibre, wireless and satellite.
How did they finance it and how was it implemented?
They set up a company to do the job (NBN), on NBN's behalf the government borrowed the money, to be repaid later with a premium.
NBN are set up as a wholesale broadband offering/ fibre landline company, no retail at all.
NBN gave the incumbent major telcos a shedload of cash to give NBN all of their customers once the new connections were established.
Exit the telco's monopoly/duopoly on landlines.
That monopoly is going to revert back to the governement via it's wholly owned subsiduary (NBN).
One day, it is proposed that NBN will be sold. A worry, but we'd like to think that the goverment of the day will be a lot smarter than the one that sold off the national telco to begin with.
We, the people, end up with fibre connections to 98% of all premises, wireless to much of the rest and some of us with well subsidised satellite connections.
This is Australia a vast land and it can be done here, UK is comparitively small though with many more premises.
Surely something similar can be done, in effect, it will cost our governement nothing to achieve. In return, they gain back the telco monopoly via NBN. All they will do is facilitating legislation, borrow some cash and end up with a telco monopoly worth billions, after having already sold it for billions.
Jees I'm in the wrong business.
Just a consumer.
I'm only a user, not an analyst, but from my point of view I really can't understand why anyone who wants to read books would use a tablet.
Since my first Kobo and now Kindle, I have read a lot of books. Far more than I have in the last ten years with only paper books as an option.
E-Readers do all that I want of them. They hold books and display them for me to read.
E-Readers have a long battery life.
Tablets do a hell of a lot more than an E-Reader, but then again, I have a mobile phone only for phone calls so what would I know.
Back in the early 1970's I drove from Perth to Dampier up the largly dirt road at that time.
It is bleak beyond belief, even to an Aussie it looks like desert country, I was amazed to cross cattle grids and see fences but failed to understand what the cattle ate unless is was the absolute mass of red rocks and boulders you see. As for suitable rivers to dam, well as previously posted, they are river beds, except, in the rainy season there is an increadibly heavy pour of rain for a short period of time. Some bridges are 12-20 metres above the creek bed and they go under. It's an odd place, I just don't know if you could build a dam to sustain the huge influx of water that arrives in such a short time, and if you could, how can you distribute it, it really is miles away from bugger all. Our water in Dampier was piped over 40-60 miles overland before it arrived to us and was too hot to use in a shower. Mind you, if you wanted to desal, maybe that's the answer, miles of black poly pipe laying on the ground, pump sea water in one end and collect the steam at the other, run a slug down it once a day to remove the salt and sell it. That would at least compete with the major salt evaporation pans at Dampier. Have a look at them on Google Earth, if only there was a simple way to reverse the process. But it does use the sun efficiently.
Re: Rampant Hipocrisy
If it's ok for US to have backdoors in systems and Chinese companies make the systems, why do the Chinese need to install backdoors? They are within the original design that China is making for the yanks. All the Chinese need do is use the backdoors that the yanks require in the Chinese made product.
I am in Australia and am a satellite user. I have no mobile phone coverage and no DSL available on landline.
I used to use ISDN, that is, until our monopoly phone company decided to stop domestic ISDN and only allow the commercial variety. So, why did I go satellite? Simply because it is governement subsidised and available.
Under the old governement scheme I was attached to the Ipstar satellite, it was somewhat slow the latency was in the region of 1300ms and the download caps were poor (upload counted as well).
Now I have the new governement scheme supplied by NBN, govt. owned and controled.
NBN did the whole installation free of charge, they own the equipment therefore they also maintain it.
The speed is higher than under the old scheme and the data cap is also higher and latency is now around 700ms.
Under the above circumstances I'd be silly to not use satellite, however, if I had to pay for the whole shebang, there is no way I would have it, I'd be using dial-up.
So, I agree with previous posters, with no govt. subsidy satellite broadband would be dead in the water.
I dunno how the Yanks do it, unless they pay lots of money and only do email or a small amount of browsing.
If a library were to pay the same fee for an ebook as they do for a paper book. Given that the ebook is effectively distributed and published for near zero cost, then surely, if the publishers have one slip through their digital fingers once in a while, it wouldn't represent a terrible loss, as they would make a fortune on the original sale.
There are some borrowers who will remove the DRM and distribute the book but I can't see that being rampant. I'm sure that each copy could have a digital signature attached that would allow the publisher to identify where a given book was loaned (the library location). If it happens once, no further action taken, if it's obvious that a serial copier is borrowing many books from a given library, it shouldn't be difficult for the library to take some action against the member, even if it is only to withdraw their membership, as they would if they have someone who consistantly fails to return paper books.
Re: Slight issue
I ask myself, is that statement entirely true. I'm sure that hacking the control server is indeed illegal in most jurisdictions, but 'all' is a very sweeping statement. I'm sure if you really wanted to zap them, one of the Pacific island nations won't stop you. I volunteer to pop over and run the server if you like.
Some of us are paying?
NBN is funded by repayable bonds, even the interest is repayable. So effectively it is paid for using someone elses money and they will get repaid with interest. $1,500,000,000 is indeed a lot of money, but then again, NBN have announced that they expect ROI to be higher than expected, so it's actually affordable. Save your agro for Testra, they caused the delays that partly required this added cost plus the deal with Optus that hands over their fibre assets.
50 Years ago.
I left Secondary Modern school 50 years ago (Bushey County).
Our curriculum was similar to that now proposed with one or two exceptions. We had no optional subjects until 6th yr. I like these proposals except poetry, gawd we had to do that and I just couldn't get with it. 12X tables that was sooo junior school. We had no smoke and mirrors subjects, no social studies as such, no citizenship stuff at all. There were also entirely seperate Tech. schools for those bent on a trade. I don't think we can return to my days, there is just too much to learn now, but I do think some regression would be of benefit.
Formula 1 Grand Prix
How is this for programming stupidity. I'm in Australia and I watch Formula 1. It's on a commercial channel. Being a commercial channel, I presume it must run commercials. But, they don't run money raising commercials, they run programme promotion ones. Not just any old programme promotion, oh no, they run kids show ones. But, they don't have a lot of kids shows, so they run the same ones three times each. Honest, I'm not kidding. Advertising kids shows during a Grand prix, that really is getting to the heart of the target audience eh.
Re: "how much personal data"
I absolutely agree. The only data a Telco needs is that which allows them to complete their billing accurately, as stated previously.
Any consumer data is none of their business. Deep packet inspection facilities should be banned.
If a Government agency requires to monitor an individual's internet data (with judicial oversight), then that data should be routed by the ISP to a Govt. site that has the facilities to monitor and store that data. I emphasize, with judicial oversight.
I heard that one terrorist user had some problems and phoned the help desk. Was right pissed off thet he was connected to a help desk in England and just couldn't understand what was said due to the foreign accent.
I always thought that that sketch was taken from Ripping Yarns. But t'was a long time ago and memory fades.
Re: Must be a fake
I'm not going to be absolute with this, but I do 'feel' that dictaphones didn't come into common usage in the 1940's, in fact they were still pretty much a beast when I worked for IBM in the late 60's.
More likely, if you were important enough, you had the use of a shorthand typist. That person would write down your dictation in wiggles and squiggles, then later type it up to present to you in English.
I could also see that when using the above shorthand method, dictating mathmatical formulae to a shorthand taker may prove very difficult as they wouldn't necessarily have a clue what you are on about. Just do the text and let the expert add the 'cryptic' scientific notation by hand would be efficient.
Re: Turnbull may be the better politican (compared to Abbott)
The answer to your question is simple. Turbull is the shadow Comms. Minister. He badly needs to always be in the media to keep his profile in front of the voters, after all he doea want to become PM.
To get yourself reported in the media, you need to be controversial/sensational. Take away NBN slagging and what has a shadow minister got left? About three fifths of bugger all. So, no matter stupid, how inane, how anti-progress it is, Turnbull will headline.
Re: ... and the inventors get?
My understanding is this, if you work for a business and your work is research. Then that business pays you to research. In fact, that business just pays you for as long as they employ you for anything you may or may not do.
So, how can you consider that the results of any research belong to the researcher. They have been paid already, each week/fortnight/month. If those same people desire the benifits of their research they should consider a career change to self employed inventor.
My understanding is...
Huawei has supplied the UK government with the source code for their producs so that it can be worked over. They have also offered the Aus. govt. the same deal, that is, as long as the government use security cleared inspectors then they too can have the source code to check for backdoors, malware or whatever else one looks for. I read this on the Delimiter site here in Aus.
How about some sort of buried cable. You could lay it out to suit a known path, Shove a current down it and you have a nice inductor under the ground throwing out a magnetic field. How you then track that field with the mower I have absolutely no idea. But, the idea is, you use that cable/field as a rail. The mower just starts at the beginning and ends, hopefully, at the end and runs into a brick wall or something to stop it.
How's this for consideration. If the Beeb produce it then it's already bought and paid for so is free on iPlayer, if the programme was produced by outsiders and the broadcast rights sold to the Beeb then they charge for it.
So, you end up with a model where, some stuff are freebies and other stuff are commercial and is paid for.
Mind you, that doesn't give the Beeb much incentive to produce 'home grown' stuff does it.
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