* Posts by John Hughes

453 posts • joined 8 May 2008

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'Turn to nuclear power to save planetary ecology from renewable BLIGHT'

John Hughes
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Re: There is no such thing as "renewable" energy.

We don't live in a closed system you nit-picking fool.

No, of course there is no such thing as renewable energy -- the sun will run out of fuel one day.

But we won't be around to see that, so who gives a fuck?

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John Hughes
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Re: Nuclear expensive? Are you joking?

Of those 3 two were scheduled to be taken out of service in 2015 and one was sabotaged.

Belgium possibly even more fucked up in its long term power planning than the UK. Maybe governments are sometimes useful?

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John Hughes
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Re: How convenient...

Its because for PWRs Areva is the only game in town.
Really? APR1000 doesn't exist?

It's true that the EPR is the only new reactor type-approved for the UK, but that's just because Areva decided to do the work and spend the money.

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Brit mobile firms in FOURPLAY TUSSLE – how very French of them

John Hughes
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Re: Free facts

Free did try selling people Wifi/SIP handsets before they bought their 3G/4G license.

Look up Freephonie.

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US Navy's LASER CANNON WARSHIP: USS Ponce sent to Gulf

John Hughes
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Re: Bangers?

No, they strapped the traditional chickens into cardboard tubes.

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John Hughes
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Re: Really?

Yup, it seems it can take out a wide variety of strapped down chickens.

Very helpful when you're being attacked by strapped down chickens.

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Linux software nasty slithers out of online watering holes

John Hughes
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Re: What does this really mean?

They do say that a regular user with limited privileges can launch it, and it can intercept traffic and run commands.

That's what they say, however the advisor says:

The module statically links PCAP libraries, and uses this code to get a raw socket, applies a filter on it, and captures packets, checking for a specific condition

And, as Alan Jenkins points out in a comment:

my understanding was you can’t capture packets / open raw sockets without root. Surely that’s big news? Are you going to elaborate on it?

Seems fishy.

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systemd row ends with Debian getting forked

John Hughes
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Re: It's all about CHOICE

Notice also that Gentoo doesn't provide systemd-shim, so if you want to use Gnome 3 you have to use systemd.

So Gentoo has two packages that depend on systemd (Gnome3 and gummiboot). Debian has only one.

Starting to feel that Debian offers more choice than Gentoo, :-)

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John Hughes
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Re: Binary logs? Ugh.

There is no way to recover a log corrupted by a crash,

Wrong.

The way to read a corrupted log is to just run journalctl.

There is no way to "fix" a corrupt log because there is no need to do it.

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

That may be the case. However some have, including myself. I switched back not for theological reasons but because it made a lot of things work unreliably (and some reliably not work).
Bug reports? What actually didn't work?

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John Hughes
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Re: pfft... re: Kids Kids

oh look i got thumbs down because I was too out-spoken about OMAP and ARM..
No, you got a thumbs down because you're a raving loon.

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John Hughes
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Re: Kids! Kids!

Do you seriously think Redhat is going to release a system where you access the disk via D-Bus?

What do you think they are, Tandem or something?

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John Hughes
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Re: About switching to BSD

The Debian/kBSD port also proves pretty conclusively that systemd is an optional part of Debian.

It is, however, a pretty poor way to learn BSD. You're not using the BSD init system for example :-)

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John Hughes
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popcorn

Just you wait, Lennart's next plan is to port systemd to Windows. You'll soon be laughing on the other side of your face.

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John Hughes
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Re: Debian is dead

Like many people, if debian starts to use systemd then it's dead to me.

We might as well use windows if stuff like this gets forced on us.

Debian has had systemd available since Wheezy. I guess you think Debian died May 4th, 2013.

systemd will be the default init system for Jessie.

Please ponder the meaning of the word "default". If something is a default that implies there are alternatives.

In fact the alternatives are sysvinit, the default init system for Wheezy, and upstart, the init system used by Ubuntu and RHEL 6.

There is exactly one package (out of around 45000 or so) that depends on systemd, It is called gummiboot. If you want to avoid systemd I would recommend not using gummiboot. Personally I'd never heard of gummiboot before people's continuing whining about packages that depend on systemd drove me to see if I could find what they were.

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John Hughes
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Re: Kids! Kids!

Hell hath no fury like a load of old developers scorned.. If a guy with grey hair and a beard say's you shouldnt do that, you'll cause outrage around the world then perhaps people should heed a few perls of wisdom from a senior generation that knows what they're talking about!

Oh for fucks sake.

I am 55 years old. I have grey hair. I started programming on an ICL 1903T in Fortran and Algol68 using punch cards. I've been a Unix sysadmin since 1991. I've fixed bugs in UnixWare(*), gcc, gdb, bash, linux, sysv init scripts...

A bunch of wet behind the ears PFY's claiming to be "veteran unix sysadmins" doesn't impress this BOFH.

(* which involved building a ISA card to force an NMI when I pressed a little button, letting me get a crash dump from a system that would always freeze around 4am, and then disassembling the X.25 drivers to find where there was an off-by-one error in the handling of the user-data field. Amazingly about 20 years later I found almost exactly the same bug in the Linux X.25 drivers.)

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John Hughes
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Re: Kids! Kids!

Yay! Another paranoid fantasy with no substance, just what we need.

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John Hughes
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So, right in my gentoo use config I have INSTALL_MASK="/usr/lib/systemd/" , its about choosing to have the os the way I want it. Linux has been, and always will be about choice for me.

So in your Debian config just create a file /etc/apt/preferences.d/no-systemd with the contents:

Package: systemd-sysv

Pin: release o=Debian

Pin-Priority: -1

Debian and Gentoo are pretty similar when it comes to systemd -- it's one of the possible init systems. On Debian it's the default, but is seems many people have forgotten that if something is the default then by definition there are alternatives.

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

Database startup for one.

Due to the poor way systemd has of knowing whether a service is available.

Ok, this starts to sound like an interesting criticism.

So, how is the problem solved in sysvinit?

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

They are all, apart from logging(*) optional features of systemd...

Be that as it may, there is clearly an intention in the systemd project to Hoover up these subsystems. Whey else would they have written the code.

They wrote the code because they think their versions are faster.

There is no way they can prevent you from running standard NTP, DHCP, inetd, cron or whatever.

If some future version of systemd does stop one of the standard services running then you report that as a bug.

This forum has uniformly delivered a pretty good shoeing to systemd.

Mostly by claiming that systemd is doing things that it isn't doing. And when some of us try to correct the FUD we get told "oh, but they will do that in the future".

Me, I don't believe in clairvoyance, time travel or FTL.

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John Hughes
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Re: @ John Hughs What is systemd

Well udev was borged into systemd a while back and is no longer maintained separately (unless you count forks like eudev).

The udev source code is in a subdirectory of the systemd tree.

udev does not depend on systemd.

So you're upset because of the location of the source code directory.

Seriously?

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John Hughes
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Re: It's all about CHOICE

Using sysvinit and systemd-shim is just a hack that will only work in the short term,

No, it is a choice that will work if the people who feel strongly about it will do the work to make it work.

If Debian decided to use upstart would that work magicly not need to be done?

My point still stands; that providing choice to users a la Gentoo, won't hurt anyone and will only please everyone apart from Poettering and his religious following.

In what sense does Gentoo provide more choice than Debian? They both allow users to run systemd, sysvinit or upstart as the init system(*)

Hell, even Devuan are promising that systemd will be available.

(* I think Gentoo also allows OpenRC)

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John Hughes
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Re: It's all about CHOICE

if a.n.application is deliberately coded to need systemd, then the battle is lost

1. That application is gummiboot(*). No, I've never heard of it either.

2. What does that have to do with Debians choice of default boot system?

Say Debian chose upstart as the default boot system. Would that make gummiboot work without systemd? No.

systemd is a choice in Debian. It is even a choice in Devuan! But neither of them will be able to use gummiboot without systemd.

Unless someone patches gummiboot to not depend on systemd.

For this we needed a fork?

(* Yes. The only application in Debian Jessie that depends on systemd with no alternative is gummiboot)

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John Hughes
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Re: Why?

I put Slack on it ( http://rpi.fatdog.eu/ ) as I can't stand Debian derived Distro's anyway.
So you are well qualified to comment on Debians default choice of init system.

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

If the leaders of Gnome and systemd were community minded we would have ended up with a rational compromise: something that was a proper (and badly needed) replacement for SystemVinit, but didn't have binary logs, a registry, tentacle dependencies and wasn't trying to become a userland kernel.

Where is systemd's registry?

Answer: it doesn't have one.

(Gnome does, but that is nothing to do with systemd, and has existed for years).

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

"Why would they do that rather than running Debian Jessie (without systemd)"

Good idea. What's needed is a version of Debian Jessie in which without systemd as the default.

Why do you care whether it's the default?

Seriously, why do you care? It stil works with either of the alternatives.

Here is the list of packages that depend on systemd in current Jessie:

$ apt-cache --no-breaks --no-suggests --no-recommends rdepends systemd

systemd

Reverse Depends:

systemd:i386

libsystemd-dev:i386

systemd-ui

systemd-sysv

systemd-sysv

systemd-dbg

libsystemd-dev

libpam-systemd

sogo

|mate-power-manager

lxsession

live-config-systemd

lighttpd

|libguestfs0

gummiboot

That's an overestimate because apt-cache show doesn't always put the "|" if the package you're looking for is an alternative, for example lighttpd depends on "lsb-base|systemd".

If you check each package (ignoring the systemd ones, of course) you'll find that the only package in Debian Jessie (or Sid) that depends on systemd is gummiboot. Some tentacles, eh?

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

Please cite one "essential part of the system" that systemd has "steamrollered into their monster"

Really? There's quite a long list. Or do you not think logging, DHCP, network interface management, automount etc. are essential system services?

Of course, if they're not then the bigger question is what they doing in PID 1...

None of those features has been "steamrollered into systemd". They are all, apart from logging(*) optional features of systemd, which can (and in Debian's case are) still be provided by non-systemd services.

And, of course, even if you use the systemd features for those services they are not in pid 1.

(* Yes, systemd logging is not optional. However it is not exclusive either(**), and systemd logs stuff that non-systemd systems don't -- error output from services for example.)

(** syslog still works, things still get written to text logs).

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John Hughes
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Re: It's all about CHOICE

My problem with systemd lies in the lack of choice available to people regarding it

What lack of choice? If you don't want systemd then just install sysvinit (or upstart if you prefer).

I cannot understand what this shouting is all about.

Some people will say "but one day every package will depend on systemd". So I guess they've already given up and I don't known why they're still complaining.

If some package you want depends on systemd then you have two possibilities:

1. give up using it

2. fix it to remove the dependency. (or make some kind of "systemd-shim" that resolves the dependency.

These two choices are the only choices whether systemd is the default Debian init or not.

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John Hughes
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Re: This is gold

Well, since it was me that fixed the bug that stopped init and friends mounting nfs filesystems when network interfaces came up (which doesn't necessarily happen when the initscripts think it should happen) it'd like to say no, it doesn't work perfectly with sysvinit.

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

If Debian sysadmins want to keep running unbloated systems they may have to buy RHEL 6.

Why would they do that rather than running Debian Jessie (without systemd) which is considerably more up-to date and will, after it's time as stable is up, probably enter long term support (assuming Debian-lts is a success).

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

The systemd developpers have "inserted their tentacles" into nothing.

I beg your pardon? They're steamrolling essential parts of the system (and even parts of userland) into their monster of a system

Please cite one "essential part of the system" that systemd has "steamrollered into their monster".

A funny gif is not a particularly convincing argument.

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John Hughes
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Re: Off to a bad start

hen all you need to do is to create a service unit like:...

And that is the default configuration on Debian.

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John Hughes
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Re: Off to a bad start

The purpose is to borg desktop services in a way that suits desktops, but only a tiny proportion of linux machines are desktops.

People keep saying this, not noticing that systemd is mostly written by Red Hat who really want it for servers not desktops.

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John Hughes
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Re: Just integrate systemd and /etc/init.d

Well, you don't get /etc/inittab (not that it usually contains much) but systemd is perfectly happy running stuff from /etc/rc?.d

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John Hughes
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Re: Hasn't this happened already with Upstart?

You're essentially arguing that it's OK for SystemD to use it's own (IMHO crappy) logging system because I can make it also pass onto rsyslog. journald is therefore completely redundant, so why would I want it on my system in the first place?

journald logs stuff that systlog can't, the stdout and stderr of things started by systemd for example.

Also, since it knows exactly which service logged each message it can show you the last messages for every service with the systemctl stautus command, which is pretty cool.

# systemctl status ssh

● ssh.service - OpenBSD Secure Shell server

Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/ssh.service; enabled)

Active: active (running) since Thu 2014-11-27 10:58:31 CET; 4 days ago

Process: 906 ExecReload=/bin/kill -HUP $MAINPID (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)

Main PID: 592 (sshd)

CGroup: /system.slice/ssh.service

└─592 /usr/sbin/sshd -D

Nov 27 10:58:35 celtic sshd[592]: Server listening on 0.0.0.0 port 22.

Nov 27 10:58:35 celtic sshd[592]: Server listening on :: port 22.

Nov 27 10:58:53 celtic sshd[592]: Received SIGHUP; restarting.

Nov 27 10:58:53 celtic sshd[592]: Server listening on 0.0.0.0 port 22.

Nov 27 10:58:53 celtic sshd[592]: Server listening on :: port 22.

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John Hughes
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Re: Hurried reporting?

You do realize that the people who resigned did so because they were pro-systemd

Almost.

Ian Jackson resigned because his GR "failed" and he was anti-systemd.

(It's not often reported, but he was also anti-sysvinit -- he was in favour of upstart).

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John Hughes
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Re: @John Hughes

Systemd is set to take over many parts of Linux, no exaggeration: udev, mount, PAM, syslog, cron, tcpwrappers, xinetd

Sorry, no.

The only dependency between any of that stuff is that and systemd is libpam-systemd and that depends on "systemd | systemd-shim".

systemd does provide alternative implementations of some features of syslog, cron and xinetd, but it also works perfectly well with syslog, cron and tcpd.

udev is developed by the systemd team, but does not depend on systemd. (It shares some library code).

I looked through the dependencies for 45758 Debian packages. 73 of them depend on some bit of systemd (not counting the 16 systemd packages), only 17 of them depend on something other than libsystemd (which does nothing if systemd is not init). 8 of them depend on libpam-systemd (which works with systemd-shim)

So here is the list of packages in Debian Sid that depend on systemd:

gpsd: netbase | systemd-sysv

gummiboot: systemd

init: systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core | upstart

libguestfs0: systemd | sysvinit

lighttpd: lsb-base (>= 3.2-14) | systemd (>= 29.1)

lxsession: consolekit | upower (<< 0.99) | systemd

mate-power-manager: systemd | consolekit

sogo: tmpreaper | systemd

So it comes down to gummiboot.

I'd worry if you desperately need gummiboot. Or get your finger out and provide a patch.

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John Hughes
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Re: Off to a bad start

The whole point of systemd is that it doesn't use init scripts.

Would you need m4 to write:

[Unit]

Description=System Logging Service

Requires=syslog.socket

Documentation=man:rsyslogd(8)

Documentation=http://www.rsyslog.com/doc/

[Service]

Type=notify

ExecStart=/usr/sbin/rsyslogd -n

StandardOutput=null

Restart=on-failure

[Install]

WantedBy=multi-user.target

Alias=syslog.service

(Replacing a 137 line shell script that calls wierd shit like "start-stop-daemon")

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John Hughes
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Re: Hasn't this happened already with Upstart?

So just use syslog, like the default Debian install of systemd does.

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John Hughes
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Re: Evil FlusterCluck

However, the people forking say that systemd is creating all sorts of dependencies.

Yes, they do say that.

When you ask them what dependancies they say "Gnome". When you point out that Gnome can be made to work without systemd by using systemd-shim, or by fixing consolekit they say "but there will be more in the future". I've never been able to find out where they got the time machine, and when I ask they tend to start frothing at the mouth about SJW's, hot babes, old testament prophets marrying underage children and things like that. (I am not joking).

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John Hughes
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Re: This is gold

So don't use systemd then.

Before Jessie Debian had the sysvinit package marked "essential", meaning that you had to have it installed.

As of Jessie there is now a package "init" that is essential, that depends on "systemd | sysvinit | upstart" so you can install whichever init system you want.

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John Hughes
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Re: This is gold

The init system gets used at moments other than boot (or at least it should). One of the problems with sysvinit is that it is very poor at handling things that happen while the system is running, plugging in drives and so on.

(And yes, we can and do change the storage configuration of runnning servers, hotplug is not just for desktops).

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John Hughes
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Re: What is systemd

With Debian, there is an additional complication. There are, or rather were, two versions of the Debian OS in development which were not based on Linux. One used a BSD kernel, and the other used a Hurd kernel (a micro-kernel). Systemd kills both of these as Debian projects because the Systemd developers insist on inserting their tentacles into nearly everything,

Two minor errors here.

1. systemd is an optional part of Debian, (it's the default for the linux kernel versions, but they work without it). Debian/kBSD and Debian/Hurd have no problem not using systemd.

2. The systemd developpers have "inserted their tentacles" into nothing. The Gnome developers have decided to use systemd-logind as well as consolekit, as consolekit developpment is dead, but the Debian (& Ubuntu) developpers have written systemd-shim which allows systemd-logind to be used without systemd as pid 1.

If the "devuan" people don't want to use systemd, but do want to use Gnome then they should have either worked on systemd-shim or taken up the maintenance of consolekit.

But since the "devuan" people actually consists of Denis Roio (also known as Jaromil) I doubt anything is actually going to come out of it.

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Netflix: Sacre vache! French resistance from the vestibuleurs de consommation

John Hughes
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the leading broadband providers

So Numericable isn't a leading broadband provider according to El Reg?

Not that I care, I just watch netflix on the PS3 instead of the Numericable box.

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Sarong it's right: Coining it in Thailand without a visa

John Hughes
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David Green is confused

I am viewed in exactly the same way as many people in the UK view the illegal immigrants from the various EU states.

Sorry Dave, UKIP haven't won the election yet.

By definition immigrants from EU states are legal, and, unlike the Dave, pay taxes.

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Xen says its security policies might be buggier than its software

John Hughes
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VM Migration

The problem isn't that VM migration isn't transparent. The problem is that some cloud providers don't implement VM migration.

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Forget the $2499 5K iMac – today we reveal Apple's most expensive computer to date

John Hughes
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Does it still work?

When was the last time it was powered on?

Are the Henry Ford museum going to show it running, or just a dead remnant of the past?

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Of COURSE Stephen Elop's to blame for Nokia woes, says author

John Hughes
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Re: So...

Now compare that with the history of the British electronics industry which had world beating technology in WW2 (as even Stalin admitted) and frittered the lot away.

Ah, yes. Stalin. The Stephen Fry of his day.

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Trolls have DARK TETRAD of personality defects, say trickcyclists

John Hughes
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Re: Machiavellianism?

Well, yes, like I said, his problem was that he was too direct.

If he'd been a twisted schemer he might have got further.

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