Posts by John Waters

@Mike Siesel

The definition of "dum dum" bullets in the UK and US differ. Much like the definition of "rubber", "post", and "production quality automotive electrics" differ in meaning as well.

As for big/heavy bullets for self defenseI totally agree as long as the velocities are kept in check.

@Trevor

Well said! BTW a recent issue of "Guns and Special Weapons for Military and Law Enforcement" Magazine had a test of +P 38 special loads fired from short barrelled pistols into ballistics gelatine through various layers of denim.

The results were as you stated with the exception of Gaser "saftey slugs" and one other pre-fragmented cartridge whose name eludes me.

Have you ever shot a but hunk of meat with a frangible bullet? Seriously, go load up some sinterfire projectiles into the cartridge of your choice, buy a thawed chickn, pot roast, or beef shank, and have at it. (American Ammunition, which ironically is manufactured by Israeli Military Industries, has a whole line of pre-loaded frangible ammo in various pistol and rifle calibers).

Frangible rounds destroy tissue. I am not sure if they penetrate deep enough to be fatal, but they sure are maiming.

*shudder*

The glasers are common classified as frangible or "pre-fragmented" by the press here in the US. As a side note gun "journalism" in the US is about as soft as those terrible in flight magazines one encounters back in coach class of any given major airline. I am serioulsy considering throwing my hat in the ring and actually writing useful reviews of various shoot-em-up kit.

The MK 262 has improved matters some for US troops who are lucky enough to have access to them. I know a couple marines in a-stan who are reporting much favorable results with the '262, even from rifles with very short barrels (way down to 10.5"). I bought a box of civilian 77gr recently for my AR15 (16" 1:7" twist, by Lewis Machine and Tool, standard contour) and they are much nicer than the SS109 crap that NATO passes off as a standard. Bear in mind that the mk 262 actually sees a few hundred FPS over the standard civialian load from Black Hills due to some construction differences (primer crimp, roll type crimp at the neck, thicker brass).

But the problem with the '262 is that its perhaps a little too stable. It often just zings clean through targets, drilling nice clean .22 caliber holes in them and continuing on unimpeded.

But I agree with you 100%, the 5.56 is basicall a small game/plinking round, not a terribly useful cartidge for taking out bad guys. Heck, in the US some states ban it as a cartridge for deer hunting due to its inability to reliably produce clean/humane kills in the field. Deer are basically man-sized mammals.

The cartridge to watch here is the 6.5mm Grendel from Bill Alexander. While I am not the biggest fan of his 50 Beowulf offering, the grendel is a great mid-caliber cartridge with amazing terminal ballistics. Its basically a militarized Benchrest cartridge. In terms of big bore "black gun" cartridges, I favor the 458 SOCOM because of the wide variety of .458 caliber projectiles suits my nerdy handloader fancy and the very common 300 and 405 grain 458 used by 45/70 enthusiasts allow me to enjoy economics of scale. Basically I can "plink" with a 405 grain 1600fps projectile from a slightly modified AR15 for $0.15 a round (if you include powder and assume 7-10 reloads before new brass is needed). Instead of vaporizing watermelons I paint cinderblocks to look like watermelons and vaporize them instead.

In close quarters the .338 spectre is also a great, albeit rarified, choice; its made by Marty ter Weeme over at teppo jutsu (teppojutsu.com). Marty is a skilled engineer and gunsmith, I just can't say enough nice things about him.

But getting back to the point. There is no reason to shoot ANYONE that's not on PCP or three days into a methamphetamine bender seven times with anything bigger than a .22lr. That is completely and totally absurd.

My initial assessment upon seeing the news of this event still stands:

"It looks like someone needs to revise their training standards."

Title

Rick: The Tokarev (7.62x25) and 32 ACP (also 7.62) are common handgun calibers in europe. What we americans consider "small caliber" is usually deemed "adequate" across the pond.

Also, chill out, you are getting way too excited over what is basically a misunderstanding on your end. Also, if you don't know about 30 caliber pistols it tells me that you probably have never read a reloader/handloader manual, which tells me that you probably don't have a whole lot of detailed practical knowledge of small arms and their munitions.

SO LET THE FISKING BEGIN!

1) Yes, people make handguns in 7.62. The Walther PP/PPK, Sig Sauer P230, Beretta Tomcat, various kahr, kel tec, and other CCW pistols all come in 32ACP (aka 7.65x15 browning), One of the most infamous pistols in modern arms history, the CZ52 was/is chambered in 7.62x25mm. The famed mauser broom handle and origional luger pistols also fired a lower pressure loading of the tokarev (it was not called the tokarev then, however, it was the "30 mauser" or "7.62 mauser").

I am reciting these from memory, i am sure I am missing a great many 30cal/7.62mm pistols.

Now that "HK in the 9mm pistol round" that you are talking about; HK has made a great many pistols in 9x19mm, one of which is the P9 series. The P9, of course, shared its roller-delayed blowback operating system with the CZ52. Which, pray tell, "HK in the 9mm pistol round" do you mean? HK also makes guns in 357 sig, 40 "slow & weak", 45 ACP, and 380 (9mm kurz).

Very very few SWAT teams use semi-auto weapons for sniping. I have not heard of a single instance of an SPR or PSG type weapon being deployed stateside for police work. Its almost always a bolt-action and almost always either an FN or Remington 700 in .308 (7.62x51).

Of course now there is a resurgence of anti 5.56 (223) sentiment amongst LEO and military operators alike. The truth of the matter is that the .223 is a terrible antipersonell round and new weapons from DSA (their shorty FAL "OSW" subcarbine), Alexander Arms (the 6.5 Grendel and 50 beowulf), Noveske (their "project leonidas" carbine, based on the AR10), Bushmaster (the 45 bushmaster), and my personal favorite (my bespoke AR15 rifle is one of these) teppo jutsu's 458 SOCOM. All offer superior CQB knock-down power, most from an only slightly modified AR platform, some (the grendel, osw, leonidas) can actually reach out well past the useful range of the 5.56. Barret, LMT, Noveske, and most other "black rifle" vendors also sell rifles chambered in 6.8mm SPC, which is issued to some of our more elite soldiers where 5.56x45 is no longer desireable.

The 5.56 was designed to counter the threat posed by large numbers of north koreans and communist chinese charging troops en masse in north korea. We needed something that could lay down huge amounts of suppressive fire in a lightweight package. The AR platform and its 5.56x45 cartridge has done a commendable job and countering most of the threats that have come down the pike in the last 50 years, but the simple truth is that technology progresses. The 5.56x45 is not the best tool for the job these days and is dutifully being replaced by other cartidges.

My comment was not a mistake, and your response only serves to indicate that you have a lot of reading to do in order to come up to speed.

BTW, my personal carry pistol, an HK USP in 45 ACP, usually has a full compliment of either Remington Golden Sabers or Federal EFMJ's. I will not use FMJ's in an urban terminal-force like situation (I live in the city), I think that it is inappropriate and places bystanderss at risk. Not to mention Golden Sabers offer accuracy that prior to their release was only available with handloads or match cartridges from black hills or cor bon. That's saying something. :)

Oh, and the custom single shot pistols are only fun if they are chambered in the JDJ family of cartridges made by SSK Industries. Make sure that you look up SSK, Noveske, Teppo Jutsu, Alexander Arms, DSA, and the CZ52 before you respond. :)

US mk262, shotguns, "less lethal" munitions (rambling american alert)

It's worth mentioning that the US mk262 round makes use of the Sierra "Matchking" 77gr Boat-tail Hollow point projectile. The hollow point is intended to reduce mass at the tip of the bullet, increasing its ballistic coefficient and helping to stabilize flight at ranges past a few-hundred-meters.

This is technically a hollow-point bullet, however.

Also frangible bullets are starting to appear on the scene. A frangible bullet is NOT something you want to hit unprotected soft tissue. It shreds/tears soft tissue well beyond repair. Kind of like a small/fast 12 ga shotgun shell loaded with buckshot, which is another thing permitted on the battle field that causes way more damage than a "dum dum" bullet.

Rubber bullets are meant to be "skip fired" off of the ground into crowds, if they are used as direct-fire munitions they are easily capable of seriously damaging tissue. One TV cameraman was severely injured in Washington DC a few years back when he was hit with a rubber bullet in the side of the head. It fractured his eye socket and caused him severe head trauma.

All of this reminds me of something that William S. Burroughs once wrote:

"As one judge said to another 'Be just and if you can't be just be arbitrary.'.".

Truth be told is that the whole point of firearms is to KILL. Killing is nasty business and it is absurd to think that one way of killing is somehow more honorable than some other way. Even when justified killing should be a matter of abject necessity and treated with the gravity that it deserves. To try to legislate around what is and is not permissible on the battlefield grants an unjustified level of legitimacy to warfare.

Warfare deserves to be given the lowest of low statures in our society. While I respect the people who have given and dedicated their lives to warcraft in the interest of protecting my country, community, family, and self; I do not think that their craft should be legitimized any more than it needs to be.

Getting to the point:

Here in the US nearly all Police forces are well armed with (what in the rest of the world is considered) large caliber ( > 7.62mm) pistols. Most of our police forces also have a "SWAT" or military style component that includes snipers, submachine-gun-toting entry squads, and even grenadiers.

It has been determined that when one needs to deploy a firearm against an individual who is a danger to his/herself or others it is by necessity a "terminal force" situation. This is different from combat where tactics center around some larger strategy intent on domination of some geographic region or political goal. On the street in the context of police work you don't have such a thing as "suppressive fire"; The officer who is deploying lethal force has to account for every single pull of the trigger. The intent is not to scare, not to deter, not to give the subject cause for surrender. When a policeman places his finger on the trigger the opportunity for surrender or deterrence has evaporated. In police work once the officer has committed to fire he or she has committed to taking a life in the interest of the greater good.

There is a consensus here in the US that because of this there is no conflict in using expanding bullets. In fact they are preferred because of their reduced risk of over penetration, which reduces the likelihood that an innocent bystander might be harmed.

I don't know what the average UK "guy on the street" thinks regarding this matter. I know that if Jeremy Clarkeson is any indication of the british opinion of the average american what I am saying here is probably not going to be of much value. One thing we americans do know, however, is dealing with violence in the streets and armed police work. Being the son of a 40 year veteran of police work, firearms instructor, and hostage negotiator I thought that perhaps what I know might be of some value here.

One last thing: At the end of the day it is training, training, training that saves lives in terminal force situations. If the british public are concerned about gun saftey among police on the streets there should be a concerted effort to push the police service to continually and rigorously train those officers that are requred to carry sidearms. Trigger time saves lives, this is always true.