So did Windows Phone 7 'bomb in US'? The Windows 7 phone seems to have met with a lukewarm reception in the United States. Despite the huge amount of promotional activity and media seeding, Microsoft only shifted 40,000 handsets in the first day of sales in the US, according to unnamed sources supplying unverified data. Thestreet.com is quoting that figure from …
Yeah... anonymous sources are always on the money. They told us a bunch of stuff that turned out to be true in the past... oh no, wait, that was named, credible sources. Anonymous source means "our source wasn't credible enough for us to put his name in, so we printed what he said anyway in the hope of attracting some publicity".
Since it's pretty clear that retailers have sold out of the top WP7 phones (e.g. try ordering the HTC Mozart in the UK, or the HD7 in the US (not sure if it's sold out in the UK too)) it seems unlikely that the true numbers are anything like that low (unless the networks woefully underestimated demand).
EIther way, it's hardly a comment on the success of the OS. As Wired pointed out in an article earlier today, if you look at the numbers from the original Android launch (c. 100,000 devices on the first weekend (i.e. 2 days) 40,000 in one day really isn't very far behind...
It's easy to sell out when you don't buy in many units. Given it is a new OS and Android, RIM, Nokia and Apple are popular I would imagine retailers were pretty cautious with their stock levels.
It's similar to the Nintendo Wii, it wasn't expected to be a big seller and stocks were limited for quite a long time. This added to the hysteria as a product you can't get which is also is seen to be selling fast gets people curious.
"It's easy to sell out when you don't buy in many units"
Your comment is partially true, and it would be relevant to this discussion, except that we don't actually know how many units were available in the first place (unless we are all supposed to place our faith in this "anonymous source"). So until someone in the know releases some actual hard numbers, I am going to suggest that people reserve their judgement (though obviously the usual crowd of El Reg trolls won't do that...).
But it's also partially untrue - it's only "easy" to sell out if there is real demand for the product. If nobody wants it, then whether you have a limited supply or not is irrelevant. The point here is that clearly more people want WP7 phones than there are WP7 phones available.
Just my 2p.
I have been trying (not all that hard) to have a play with one of the new Win7 phones. Still no luck so far, after trying just about every phone shop in 2 large UK cities.
Obviously this is only anecdotal, but no-one had even a display model. So they either sold so well that they sold their display models, or....
That is one possibility. Another possibility, is that some publicity-grabbing journalist thought, "I know, let's ride the tide of anti-MS feeling in the media and grab a few thousand extra readers, by making up some numbers that tell the iOS and Android fanbois exactly what they want to hear."
The trouble is, we don't know which possibility is true, and that makes the figures completely unreliable. Give us the data and we'll believe the story. Until then, take a peek at the (much more balanced) article at Ars Technica (via Wired):
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/11/windows-phone-7-already-doomed-dont-let-early-sales-fool-you.ars
if the original Android did 100,000 in it's first 2 days, that is saying something since there was absolutely no advertising of this outside of the tech press. Nothing like all the Windows Phone 7 ads I've been seeing in print and on TV.
I think the Droid _really_ did well on it's first day or two also and that one was _very_ well advertised.
So 40,000 on its first day does say something about how dis-interested the public is with either this phone or another phone OS. iPhone and Android fill the needs of most and it seems Microsoft is getting some of its own. People know iPhone and Android and they know others have them so they follow what others are doing. "Windows Phone 7, what's that" and is it a Droid or iPhone?
BTW, I've had people tell me I should have got a "Droid" when I have my Nexus One out. I got a chuckle from that and straightened them out also.
regular or long sub? What bread- brown, white, seeded? what meat? (list of what's there in front of you) Take extra meat for a dollar more? what salad items? Pick any 5 or have the lot for a dollar more, sauce or dressing? jalapenos? Care to take 2 subs for 4 dollars extra? have a regular coffee for a dollar more? decaf or regular? turn that into the meal time deal with a doughnut for another dollar? what kind of doughnut.... (customer collapses from starvation)
... I look the half-witted pseudo-human in the eye and say, "I've given you my order" and say nothing more. If the idiot keeps on asking questions I either ask to see the manager or simply walk out. It's my money, it's my decision and there are too many low class joints all over town to put up with inane script recitation. And I always enjoy it. We old fart retired and socially retarded folk are like that ... yes we are.
Subway:
- Choose sandwich
- Choose bread
- Choose toasted, just the meat heated or neither
- Choose which and how much of each from the large array of extras
- Choose zero to many sauces
British sandwich shop:
- Choose sandwich
- (If they actually even make the sandwich there) choose bread from the array of choice { "white", "brown" }
I still haven't fully adjusted to the notion that I can order a dish at a restaurant and substitute or remove (usually cheese) something.
I raise my glass of warm water with two ice cubes and say "Cheers, El Reg!"
How about federal REGULATIONS.
HIPAA, SOx, SAS, STIGs, and more. If your communication includes SSNs, Account numbers, PII, PHI, PCI, and more, that communication when going over open networks, must be encrypted. Most companies fall under this but don't even know it.
There are 2 federally approved phone systems currently, assuming DOD Stigs apply directly, or similar restrictions:
- 1 is WP6.5, but ONLY if running a local encryption app ($79 per handset), an expensive and specific 3rd party central server platform to manage devices, connectivity to an Exchange 2003 or 2007 server, and only if the device is owned by the company (not the user), and is approved by an auditor to be used.
- The other is Blackberry, under much of the same conditions, using both BEZ and Exchange 2007 as well as a 3rd party additional server platform.
iPhone is very close to meeting the goals (actually it already has, without reqiring the 3rd party server, one of Apple's goals), and is simply pending confirmation in the next revision of the STIG Mobile Device Security update.
WP7 has a LONG way to go. Sad seeing WP6.5 for a long time was the ONLY approved system (Obama forced BB to be added). Android can not meet the requirements in its current incarnation, nor can WebOS, maybe in Android 4...
Apple iOS is already heavily accepted as a business device. It easily integrates into Exchange without added servers, can be easily remotely managed, can be remotely tracked, can be remotely wiped, includes encryption without 3rd party apps, and is offered on business phone plans. With WP7 off the list, and RIM flailing to keep it together, I think we'll see iOS added to the STIGS in 2011 and it will become the go-to business handset.
-- "Some of us are old enough to remember when Microsoft was the good guy, fighting against the mammoth IBM."
Some of us are old enough to remember when Google was the good guy, fighting against the mammoth Microsoft.
Some of us are old enough to remember when Facebook was the good guy, fighting against the mammoth Google.
Some of us even remember when UNIX was new, and all microcomputers were 8 bit and minicomputers were 16 bit (and some mainframes had 24 or even 36 bit wordlengths).
Seriously, if (Intergalactic) Digital Research had persuaded everyone that MP/M (the multitasking variant of CP/M) was the OS to use, then desktop PCs would have been able to multitask from the word go. And that would have really changed history. But remember, even CP/M was not original and was superficially a rip off of RT11 on DEC PDP11s, even down to the device naming and PIP.
Still would have preferred a UNIX derivative on the desktop, even if it had to be crippled by needing to run from floppy disks (UNIX V6 on PDP11 circa 1975 - Kernel less that 56K, ran [just about] on systems with 128K memory, able to multitask, multiuser by default with recognisable permissions system). Definitely doable, although reliable multitasking without page level memory protection would have been a challenge.
MS was always evil. They killed CP/M. Then MS killed the DOS clones.
Apple was the one that started fighting IBM, but the closed ecosystem paired with a couple of stumbles in the early PC days meant that the PCs took over the market udring the 90's. Of course, those of us old enough remember when Apple was good in making easy to use OSen and *didn't* have rabid fanboys, or one man imposing his views on the entire company.
IBM has somewhat turned into an "open-source fighter", so it isn't really seen as evil anymore... unless you're stuck with their propietary stuff on mainframes. The other thing that has happened is that most of the IT firms have turned evil: Google, Apple, Oracle, Facebook... so now there isn't "fighting the mammoth" but more like mammoths fighting each other. :)
One point alone, I quote: "Thestreet.com is quoting that figure from an unnamed analyst, ". "Unamed analyst"? We all know from experience that these people _love_ getting their name in the media because it promotes their business. The fact that the person concerned remained anonymous indicates that he/she could not actually justify their conclusions or there is some negative spinning going on - or both. Personally I think that whilst the _UK_ figures indicate that WP7 is doing at least OK it is _way_ to early to say anything positive or negative with regard to sales figures.
No file or disc access for PC connections, you have to use the Zune nonsense. This is a serious deal breaker and I would advise anyone not to use the lump of shit for that reason, get an Android !
No cut, copy, and paste
No custom ringtone capability.
No multi-tasking.
In short you are best of looking elsewhere.
"No cut, copy, and paste
No custom ringtone capability.
No multi-tasking."
Really??
I know thats its the first release of Windows Mobile 7. But if I remember correctly the first version of the iPhone didnt do those things and that got the flame wars burning bright.
For one, I'm amazed I haven't heard that before now. That the iPhone didnt do those things in version one was shouted from the roof tops.
Secondly.. They had the balls to release a phone that doesnt do those things? Having seen and heard the slating that iPhone got when it couldnt do those things.
iOS could only not do copy/paste on launch.
It did multitask for all the included apps. (only 3rd party apps, added later, could not run in the background, but they could still multi-task with apple native apps, messaging, and later badges and alerts, which for all but GPS and Pandora was good enough). iOS was multi-threaded from day 1.
It had custom ring-tones. You could make your own in iTunes, or make them with a 3rd party app and very easily drag them in. There were no carrier-provided ringtones, but they were also only $0.99 each, could be completely user customized for the part of the song used, and were easy to make.
As for WP7, yea, after the panning apple got over C/P, and the misunderstandings over multitasking, WP7 released without this, 3 years later, is just plain dumb. lacking security options, home screen customization, numerous quite critical APIs, and having a completely closed store (worse than apple, really, read the terms, ouch) with little or no SDK of value? The devs are gonna hate the policies, its too expensive to dev for, businesses can't use it, and its lacking in so many areas. ...and the hardware is behind too? Its dead before it started.
Have you actually used one? I have 3 emails accounts, 2 yahoo one hotmail and all 3 update at the same time. At the same time I can have music playing, and internet explorer uploading. Is that not multi tasking? No there is no 3rd party multi tasking but why should they be? Remember the dodgy android app that almost brought down the t-mobile network in USA? I would like the "tasking" single or multi to stay as it stands now, couldn't care less, it does the job very well. This is the most solid phone I've ever user and never had to reset it for the past 3 weeks. Today my friend's andoid couldn't do anything, I did all the navigation. It probably crashed but he didn't admit. There are things that can be done in a better way, but at least I am guaranteed upgrades. I already get upgrades from apps I have.
They are trying to copy the iPhone model a little bit too closely, so they are also ditching the features that the iPhone didn't have on its first iteration.
Except they aren't the first one doing this, so even the iPhone users will see the option as inferior, even if their own phones couldn't do that a couple of months/a year ago.
Their "unnamed source supplying unverified data" is completely wrong - What *I* heard from an unnamed source providing unverified data (bloke down the pub) was that they sold 84 million handsets on the first day and took orders for another 721.5 million - and my unnamed source is much more reliable than their unnamed ssource.
Why on earth do you publish these stories? They're nearly as bad as the "industry analyst predicts annual global sales of 173,235,406 iPhone6s by 2035" (i.e. bloke down the pub just plucked a number out of the air) - all totally pointless and not news at all - please stick to the important suff - like when does the serious planning for LOHAN start?
Because we click on the stories, then click on the forums and rail on it. And we fall for it each and every time! I don't begrudge El Reg for making a bit of ad revenue, heck I've got them on my flash blocker whitelist. But yeah, we're suckers for this.
First day sales as a measure of how successful a platform will do in the long run is pointless. Comparing WP7's first day sales with current daily sales of android and iphone is totally non-sensical.
What where the first day sales of the first android phones (G1)?
How does this compare with the sales figures of the original iPhone?
This web site, http://www.theoligarch.com/windows-phone-7-geeky-flop.htm has:
"Windows Phone 7 is yet another disaster from accident prone Microsoft. Do not expect it to revive either Microsoft's mobile market share, or Microsoft's share price. Analyst Carolina Milanesi at Gartner is wrong to describe Windows Phone 7 as a "good effort" that will probably founder. This article explains why Windows Phone 7 has all the buoyancy of a lead balloon."
I reckon they have a point!
Can't remember much fighting.
Can remember the 'MS servers don't demand client licencing' which soon changed to 'you must have client licences' when they'd got sufficient fishes hooked.
Can remember OS2 v Windows and wish OS2 had prevailed, because it was much better in it's 'no MS code' guise than Windows at the time and for many iterations that followed. My rose glasses still suggest to me that XP didn't stack-up so good against OS2 either, but I may need to clean those glasses.
Can remember lots of other things, but 'fighting', naah, not that.
The greedy always attract unwanted attention, which grows slowly and dissipates it not regularly fed, but when fed the way MS has, it just simply grows n grows.
From: http://www.theoligarch.com/windows-phone-7-geeky-flop.htm
Windows Phone 7 is yet another disaster from accident prone Microsoft. Do not expect it to revive either Microsoft's mobile market share, or Microsoft's share price. Analyst Carolina Milanesi at Gartner is wrong to describe Windows Phone 7 as a "good effort" that will probably founder. This article explains why Windows Phone 7 has all the buoyancy of a lead balloon.
It feels a little like a re-run of the Palm Pre launch. A decent OS/hardware combination, big marketing budget.. and customer indifference.
Having a decent product doesn't mean that people will buy it. It's going to be down to how well Microsoft and partners can promote the platform to people who are choosing (at the moment) between the iPhone and Android.
Only four months ago Microsoft brutally killed off its Kin phone only 6 weeks after launch. Perhaps US phone providers have been reluctant to pour money into marketing / promoting Windows Phone 7 in case the same thing happens. Or perhaps the business model MS has chosen doesn't give providers much incentive to promote the thing. It's also possible that the usual early adopters who would buy new gadgets have been turned off by some of the stories about W7.
Anyway it does seem to be promoted far more heavily in Europe. I saw an HTC phone the other day and the thing has a massive screen. HTC do make great kit, but slapping a huge screen on is a double edged sword. On the one hand it makes browsing / gaming a lot more pleasant. On the other it's probably a turn off for anyone who doesn't want to be carrying a slab in their pocket.
I was going to stay out of this discussion since I apparently wind up the haters, however towards the end of the article a line caught my attention:
"But we can't help thinking that unsubstantiated figures from an unknown source smell of a media that wants to see Microsoft fail"
Little statements like that are exactly the reason why I keep coming back to The Register :)
"We find that hard to believe of a country where ordering a sandwich involves a detailed 10-minute exchange."
... I can as I've done that - well not quite 10mins but remember when I was in Calif for a couple of years spending a long time on the phone trying to order sandwiches to pick up for a family pickup as the person I was speaking to did not known what I meant when I asked for ham and tomato in my sons childrens sandwich .... until after several attempts I suddenly realized the problem and asked for "ham and to-may-toe" which seemed to register with the person I was speaking to.
Anyway, after that experience I then discovered I could place the order via internet (this was quite a new concept back in 1998!) and never had to go through the problem again!
Oh, right, that explains everything. I take it you'd never, ever, ever been through the whole to-may-toe to-mah-toe thing before then?
Yet somehow when the same thing happens in Canada, it's different? Because yes, they say to-may-toe in Canada too.
But in this case you were in California -- where 90+% of the minimum wage drones working behind the cash registers of fine dining establishments like MickeyDs and Burger King are latino "immigrants" -- immigrants whose command of spoken English is often not very good.
Right. Got it.
Well, my karma here is not getting any better, but I'm still not going to be a coward and post as AC. It's not like this is my real name either. Really, I've been to the UK on a number of occasions, and in my experience you have just as many tossers there as we have nitwits here. You need to get over yourselves. You're just not that special.
Before you go all Jingo-defensive and cry racism I've had similar experiences to the AP living in that well-known Hispanic hotbed of Maine.
I've frequently had tomahto-juice related difficulty. I've even ordered a tomahto juice in a restaurant and had the server say "Apple?" No, I'm not making it up for effect, it really happened. One server walked away mouthing "to-mah-to" and on returning said "Here's your to-mah-to juice".
The different pronunciation really can cause confusion. I don't even have a regional English accent. Nobody who knows me has problems with my pronunciation. I just figure that with "tomahto" being the first word a server would hear me say it hits them unexpectedly and their brain can't process it.
I've also had to repeat "root beer" but that was just lazy English consonants.
Although I use American vocabulary (yes, aluminum and soccer) I haven't shifted to American pronunciation much at all and there are certain things I can't bring myself to say, including tomayto and 'erb (and I do orEGano but not bayzil).
And on vacation in Canada (Niagara Falls, so maybe it doesn't count so much) I was able to tomahto away to my heart's content so I can't confirm your suggestion that Canadians would have the same problems as Americans.
.
Erm, Latin Americans, at least those from Mexico can manage English pretty well; the problem is that they will be used to American English, not British. However, the "to-mah-to" pronunciation wouldn't be a problem, as it is actually similar to the Spanish word for tomato: tomate sounds like "to-mah-teh".
Anyway, I learned about the to-mah-to pronounciation thanks to the "Attack of the Killer Tomatos" cartoon from the early 90's. One of the episodes involved a war on how to say "tomato".
...how does your car stack up against a Bugatti Veyron? Or a Kahn Range Rover? Or a Maybach? Or a Zonda? Or a Rolls Royce? Bentley? Masserati?
Classes exist so you can be the judge of what is best within your price range, otherwise you'd spend your life looking at your car and thinking "while this is a pile of sh*t compared to [any of the above*]"
*Unless you DO have one of the above of course! :)
Classes don't exist.
It's just crap someone made up (marketing BS). Who draws the line? Is it 30k? Is there some magical difference between something that costs 29k and 31k that you don't see between 27k and 29k or 31k and 33k? If I have 32K am I not allowed to look at a car that costs 28k?
And as for the phone, a W7 phone is in the same price range as an Android with similar hardware, and not much less then an iPhone. It's not being compared to a phone that costs 5-10 times as much.
"We find that hard to believe of a country where ordering a sandwich involves a detailed 10-minute exchange."
I can certainly relate to that. First time I ever ordered Breakfast in America (see what I did there?) I asked for eggs, bacon, toast and tea. I was then asked how many and how I wanted my eggs, followed by what kind of bacon and what kind of toast. Did I want any extras like hash browns and don't get me started on the tea or coffee (they can't make English tea for toffee, btw).
Figures are fun.
For instance,
40,000 sales in US per day, * 365 = 14.6 Million per year.
If there are 0.3 billion people in the US and 20 times as many in the rest of the world (i.e. 6 billion) then we can multiply by 20 to get an estimate of worldwide sales in the first year.
14.6 Million * 20 = 292 Million. Plus US figures of 14.6 Million = 306 Million.
That's quite a lot of phones, and as an estimate it's probably as reliable as the original 40,000 figure it's based on.
Go figure, as they say Stateside.
...to be out of contract when Windows Phone 7 was released.
I seem to remember mass rioting (or queuing being the British equivalent) at phone stores this July just gone. All of those (and me) with iphones are stuck until next year before we can look at these phones... so i would suggest the numbers be taken with some realism in mind.
Fire, as thats what El Reg seems to be creating for no apparent reason!
Well it's Microsoft and there aren't too many dumb fanbois out there who are going to line up outside during the night.
Then their advertising is targeting people who aren't immersed in their cellphones and are fed up with other people who are. That group, while very large, isn't exactly going to be rushing out to get a new one. Many of those in that group don't even want a cellphone let alone a smartphone. Then the people who do want a smartphone because its PDA features are useful will keep their cellphones for a long time. If it's any good (and I wouldn't know being a penguin) they could get a good share of the people but not a big share of the cellphones which means that cellphone manufacturers aren't going to be very interested.
I very much doubt Microsft is expecting Windows Phone to outsell the iPhone anytime soon, what they need now is something that won't be laughed out the market. If they manage that they could possibly have a real contender in two years.
Remember android, it was launched about two years ago, one year ago it was still considered an 'also-run' and then, the HTC nexus and desire and the motorola droids were released and suddenly it was outselling the iPhone.
Surely their target market are people who already have an Android or iPhone?
I doubt few people have been holding off buying anything just because they wanted to see what Microsoft were doing.
I only found out about Windows Phone about a month ago. I just assumed they weren't bothering.
They turn up late for everything and then wonder why they get a kicking.
Can this be Zune II?
When developing with MS products it is often helpful to depict the project as a giant bowl of pasta. Any new pasta added will never have the same form as the old and after a period of time the bowl will resemble nothing anyone would want to consume.....
I have a Samsung Omia 7 in the UK and have to admit that there has been a huge surge of demand from what I have seen. WP7 is a fresh and rather excellent OS. I have a few smartphones and WP7 is (IMO) the best so far. I think it will pick up and the 40,000 units shifted seems a little low compared to Europe.
As a phone its excellent and the xbox live integration is solid if a little barebones.
Just get Angry birds on it and it will shift bucketloads!
In America, nearly every major action, Drama show had a Microsoft mobile Product placement in them.
Worse one was during "Hawaii-Five-0" it was nearly a 30 second "ad" badly written into the script...
Went something like this: "oh! let me just 'Bing" this artist on my new mobile" (cut to Windows Mobile screen and Bing search popping up....)
Xmas right around the corner, people holding out maybe? Many people I know are talking about what they want, but it's what they want or expect for Christmas, not today or next week.
No one has stated or even commented on the MS phone, the ones they want are the IPhone or some android based phone. It hasn't even come up in conversations. not bashing the MS phone, just something I've observed with people I know or work with everyday.
So if MS can push between now and xmas, they will probably sell a lot more.
As far as MS employees getting them, well, what if they don't want it? What if they are happy with what they have?
If I work for company A and use a product made by company B, and my company (A) makes a product to compete, I shouldn't have to give up something I bought from company B simply because my company gives it to me, especially if the product doesn't offer as much as what my company is currently making. Who's paying the cell bill? two year contract?
I wonder if there are secret meetings or whispers around the water cooler about warnings not to let Balmer or someone else catching you using an IPhone when they've given you an MS phone?
Or better yet, watch Ebay for tons of phones being sold in Washington state.
Again, no bashing intended, just curious.
M$ should have known and I'm sure that they did that many M$ phonxors are quite fed up with version locking and other stupidity that seems to emanate from the land of Bill.
There were too many 1/2-ass supported versions of the Os and worst yet M$ tried to shake down developers for a mixed up new platform.
So assuming that is all behind them why should M$ be trusted to act differently now?
The problem with this phone is that it doesn't do anything that the other phones don't do already -- its a late entry to a saturated market. The "Windows 7" doesn't mean a thing; I can't think of any compelling reason to use Windows 7 compared to Windows anything else (except the obvious like Vista), its an annoying piece of software that has subtle compatibility issues with existing applications.
Microsoft powers offices -- its everywhere in business. The company isn't going to fail. Its just that it had the Smartphone market a decade ago, it didn't do anything with it and now its nothing. Its just like the music player business; it can make a decent music player, but so what?
[mythbusters]THERE'S yer problem![/mythbusters]
Basically the local operators AFAICT are totally ignoring Windows phones. There's none on display, no literature, and they'll deign to discuss one only if you have the poor taste to bring it up.
The operators want to piss all over the GUI and stamp their mark on it, just like a dog on a fire hydrant. That's their definition of "value-add" and "market differentiation". Look at the "Sense" and "MotoBlur" crap on Android. They see it as a power grab by MSFT and want nothing to do with it, regardless of if it's a decent phone or not (and the jury's still out on that one)
I had to root my Droid and remove the crap that Verizon had ladled on it, and I made sure to get an original Droid that didn't have MotoBlur garbage.
""In the phone world, our surveys show that there should be a choice between A or B," the analyst explained.
We find that hard to believe of a country where ordering a sandwich involves a detailed 10-minute exchange."
Nobody takes 10 minutes to order a sandwich in the US: one just uses their iPhone and ...
My friend is pissed about the lack of an upgrade for his HTC HD2 (I am not pleased about this issue either) but I thought he would be interested to see the interface at a bare minimum. The Vodafon store I went to in Berlin did not even have the thing plugged in, and the battery was flat. They had anti-theft things actually stuck to the touch screen, so it would have been unusable in any case. The sales guy even started cross selling when I specifically came into the store to show a friend one of the Windows Phone 7 devices. It looks to me like there might be a bit of an issue with foot soldiers in the stores. All the Vodafon billboard ads I have seen, and this is what I get in their store? I just dragged my friend out when the sales dood started talking about home contracts. Any Microsoft people want to know the store location?
I see that my second contribution to this thread was rejected. In I criticised the lack of cross-checking of the source "in original article". The original article I was referring to was the one in "Thestreet.com"; NOT the one here in El Reg!!!! Hello? A bit sensitive not to say quick on the draw today aren't we? I was in fact _agreeing_ with YOUR article's skepticism regarding what "Thestreet.com" had published - and I get modded?
....In fact I very rarely shout - ALRIGHT!!!!! No, to be a little more serious Sarah I have to concede that (after re-reading my original post, the one you terminated with etc..etc) there was a degree of potential ambiguity in the way I structured that post which might have misled the reader with regard to _which_ "original" article I was referring to. So I will admit that the fault was at any rate partly mine even if my intentions were of course as pure as the driven snow - and all that jazz. I would also like to say that I realise and respect the fact that pre-modding at high speed such that one does not strangle the debate but at the same time keeps the debate within in the rules is not the easiest task going and I have a genuine regard for what you and your compadre at Reg Hardware are trying to achieve.
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