back to article Google Android chief smacks Steve Jobs with Linux speak

Google Android chief Andy Rubin has responded to Steve Jobs's extended rant against Google's mobile OS, unloading a cagey tweet meant to defend claims of Android "openness." On Monday afternoon, during a surprise appearance on Apple's quarterly earnings call, Jobs took aim at Mountain View's repeated claims that Google is " …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. Andy Watt
    Thumb Up

    Eh? Headline?

    This is a great article - it's balanced, thoughtful and well composed, I reckon. Had to double take - good job Mr Metz, you only said cult once. And no fanboi?

    Actually, in all seriousness, pointing out the difference in approach here says it all; a geek posts 140 characters pointing out how inaccessible to 99% of the population android's precious openness is, and steve jobs points out how closed the iphone is. Who's right? I'd rather walk away from the argument and work it out for myself... Keep reading product reviews.

    It worries me that these expensive and powerful platforms are apparently only good for a few months on cutting edge though, according to this rubin fellow. Cmon, hold on tomyour phone for a bit, see a couple of OS upgrades, live with the damn thing and save then planet some strife. Or some junk.

    1. Player_16

      Yeah, it IS more balanced.

      '...- good job Mr Metz, you only said 'cult' once.'

      At time, Mr. Metz would say 'cult' so often, it would read as if he was describing the sound of a Harley idling on the street: cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult, cult...

      1. The Beer Monster
        WTF?

        Cult?

        A Harley goes potato, potato, potato...

        's a fact.

  2. Giles Jones Gold badge

    Licences are still required

    What use is open when you have to have a licence to use Google's app store?

    What's the betting this licence is more or less what an OEM would pay for Windows Mobile?

    So open just means freedom to ruin or water down Android for end users. Even when OEMs do create good Android customisations they don't share them, they would lose their USP.

    So to summarise 'open' means grab Android code, play around with it. Stick a GUI on it, don't give anything back to Google. Unless you want to use the app store. Ordinary non-geeks aren't going to give a hoot about source code access.

    1. DrXym

      You don't need google's app store to run Android

      Android OS runs fine without an app store, and you're not forced to use the Google one even if you use one. Indeed there are a number of alternatives such as appslib (http://www.appslib.com/) which demonstrate the point.

      Google appear to be handing out the marketplace app to certified devices as a carrot for compliance. Make a compliant device and you're fully welcomed into the fold. If you don't pass compliance you don't get access to the marketplace. Problem at the moment is a lot of tablets aren't compliant and the compatibility definition document seriously needs to address this. It probably will when 3.0 rolls by but it's still a huge issue at the moment.

    2. sovok

      Licenses are optional

      Manufacturers do not depend on Google

      LePhone by Lenovo doesn't have any Google Apps but it's still a compatible Android phone

      Lenovo appstore:

      http://www.lenovomm.com/appstore/

    3. Mark 110

      Android for me

      Got a HTC Desire recently. Didn't get an iPhone because I really didn't want to be locked in to Apples crazy world of insane control and bumped up prices. Same reason I never bought a Mac. And my HTC Desire "just works".

      OK, I can see why people would like something that never has an issue with hardware compatibility, or whatever, but I'm personally much happier to be able to use the hardware I want, with the OS I want, and the software I want without a Big Brother standing over me telling me what I can and can't do with it.

      Its mine. Back off.

      As for the openess issue - Android = somewhat open. iOS = not open at all with crzy controls and locked in balls and cock and whatever. I'm sorry Apple but just sell me your stuff and then back off and stop trying to control everything I do.

      1. Garibaldi
        Linux

        But there is a catch

        I am not a big fan of apple, however, I do prefer comfort.

        With android you have find an "itune equivalent app" to sync your multimedia content. Also games, apps, and other stuff is some what imporant to most of us -- time it takes to sync with itune is almost nothing compare to Blackberry, and other smart phone apps.

        As for over price. Let's say you bought a PC notebook -- a good notebook would be around $750 (with matte screen). You have to spend another $100 - $150 ( a year) to keep your computer clean from viruses, malware, spyware, and other upcoming threats (not counting waste of time. OSX is based on UNIX therefore way better for the masses. Let's say you decided to keep you laptop for 3 years, the money you'd spend on keeping it clean would be almost equivalent to Mac -- not to mention the frustration.

        When I was a student I couldn't buy Apple laptop so I learn to use Linux. I don't regret that for a minute. However, most of the people don't want to invest lot of time in computer, and that is why mac sales are going up -- it's already #3 in US.

        1. PatrickEB

          Sort of

          Your commentary about protecting Windows machines is not accurate.

          There is a plethora of software out there which is both free or/and open source which can be freely obtained for the protection of Windows machines.

          I don't use Windows but I do provide support to those who do and continually suggest these as options to people.

          Additionally debates about 'comparisons' between machines is replete with confusion, I'd suggest this:

          http://www.amitbhawani.com/blog/dell-laptops-vs-apple-macbook-price-features-comparison/

          as an example of the price difference.

          The issue, for me, about Macs and OSX and Apple in general is that you have your dad telling you what you can do with a machine you bought - the iPhone being the worst example.

          You may have bought it, but you don't own or have control over it.

          1. Chris Pearson

            Only on IOS

            On OSX I can install what I want when I want and do what I want. No different to Windows or Linux (fact is I can build most linux apps from source and have them work if required)

            On IOS however, well you know how that one ends.

            I am hoping this current idea for mobile and desktop OSs to meet in the middle doesn't happen, they are 2 OSs for 2 very different things. That said there is room for features to swap between the 2 in places.

            1. PatrickEB

              Not entirely

              OSX is not open and so you cannot 'do what you want'.

              There are obvious limitations. Even if you were completely au fai with BSD, there are limitations to what you can do because of the proprietary layers used by OSX.

              So while you are partly correct, there is a BIG difference between GNU Linux and the Mac OS.

              1. The Other Steve

                BIG difference between GNU Linux and the Mac OS.

                Yeah, one of them's successful on the desktop.

                Also :

                "Major components of Mac OS X, including the UNIX core, are made available under Apple’s Open Source license, allowing developers and students to view source code, learn from it and submit suggestions and modifications" http://www.apple.com/opensource/

                And that's an OSI and even FSF approved licence, BTW.

                And in addition :

                Even amongst the Linux user base, and in fact even amongst the tiny vocal subset that comprises the Linux Jihad, only a vanishingly small number of them actually do OS level stuff. I'm sure it makes their geekWangs all tumescent knowing that they could if they wanted to, or were even remotely competent to do so. But mostly they don't.

                And no, compiling a 'custom' kernel doesn't count.

                1. M Gale
                  Badgers

                  Same difference

                  "Yeah, one of them's successful on the desktop."

                  The best part is you're saying that entirely without irony.

                  Most people I know who run Macs are either:

                  Arty pretentious types, for whom even an Ubuntu laptop with an AMD64 is a "crappy wintel box".

                  People who hate Microsoft, don't know what Linux is, and like to jump from frying pans to fires.

                  People who spend stupid money on toys, like Bang and Olufsen hifis, because they are "stylish".

                  And lastly, iToy developers, who have no choice.

                  Believe me, it's not many people.

            2. Ammaross Danan
              Go

              Re: Only on IOS

              "On OSX I can install what I want when I want and do what I want. No different to Windows or Linux"

              Just one question: "Can it play Crysis?"

              1. Chris Pearson

                Re: Re: Only on IOS

                No it can't, but from what I can work out neither can 90% of PCs.

          2. Tom King 2
            Gates Horns

            Same game as MS

            He's just using the same game MS does with their TCO "studies". Take the worst case, make it look like that's the norm, inflate it a little, throw in some hyperbole, and that's great marketing, right?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Linux

          which part of

          "free" as in "AVG free" you fail to understand?

          also MS was supposed to release a free tool for this??

          granted relying on the generosity of a single supplier is not an ideal situation, however in the given scenario you are are wrong.

          now if you need to spend money to protect yourself from your own stupidity then that is *your* money to spend. and mac /ms users apparently have lots of it. and steve/steve apparently wants lots of it. a marriage made in heaven me thinks.

          1. TeeCee Gold badge
            Stop

            Re: which part of

            "also MS was supposed to release a free tool for this??"

            You mean MS Security Essentials?

            Yes it is indeed free, yes it works and it's actually a bloody site less of a clog than AVG. It also doesn't constantly nag you to go to the all-singing, all dancing, all paid for version. So far it seems to lack the recurring false positives that plagued AVG when I gave it house room for a while.

            MS don't crow about it though or offer it as an installation option. I think they're worried about the lawsuit potential inherent in waving this particular flag.

        3. paul 97
          Grenade

          sync

          "With android you have find an "itune equivalent app" to sync your multimedia content."

          Come again. This is the main reason I love android.

          Copy files to memory card. Check

          Copy files via usb as a standard drive / mount point. Check.

          Copy files over wi-fi as ftp / scp / cifs - check.

          About the only way you cant do it is telepathic

        4. Ed Courtenay

          @Garibaldi

          "With android you have find an "itune equivalent app" to sync your multimedia content."

          Really? I can transfer media content to my Android device (HTC Legend) using Windows Media Player or (shock, horror!) Explorer - anything that can access USB removable media in fact. So, no matter what OS I'm using (Windows 7 or Ubuntu 10.04 at home ATM), I can get multimedia content to or from my Phone. Easy.

          My iPod Touch on the other hand can by default only be synced via iTunes - and don't get me started on that abortion of an application, especially on Windows. If it wasn't for the inability of the iPod to subscribe and automatically update podcasts without iTunes, I would never use it - instead I'd exclusively use the dopisp plugin for Windows Media Player.

        5. Richard Morris
          Pint

          Alternatively

          Install Microsoft Security Essentials for free (http://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/) and then blow the rest of the cash on beer.

        6. foo_bar_baz
          WTF?

          @garibaldi

          "OSX is based on UNIX therefore way better for the masses."

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xywqv1cDH8

  3. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

    Open, fragmented, covered in pie...

    None of it matters if no one ever has any stock of any of these neat toys. For all this hand waving and hot-air the only thing that actually matters to Joe and Jane random is the answer the nerd behind the counter gives when they ask "what is the best phone you've got in stock for budget X?"

    Neither Apple nor Google have managed to break the carriers and thus no matter who makes the greatest whatever it all boils down to “will it run on my network, and does the store I shop at have it?”

    TL;DR: In meatspace, nobody cares what the phone runs, just so long as it runs and does so with a good rate plan.

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Theory fails the brother-in-law test

      Brother-in-law's Sony Xperia X10 broke, as they're not making them any more he got an Xperia X10 Mini as replacement. Now the X10 ran WM6.5 and the X10 Mini runs Android.

      He's rather annoyed as he's got to find Android replacements for all his software.

      He's not particularly geeky but he likes his Messenger and TomTom.

      1. Rich 30
        Unhappy

        x10?

        Your prother would have had an X1i, not X10.

        Getting an X10 Mini (i think he would have got the Pro version, ie with a slide out keyboard) as a replacement is RUBBISH, its nowhere near as nice to hold or use, and the screen would be way smaller.

        I miss my X1 a lot, even if it was horrible WinMo.

      2. Neil Lewis

        Messenger + TomTom?

        Android has turn-by-turn satnav built in and there are numerous 'messenger' type apps which will work with whatever IM system you choose, so that should take all of , oh, 2 minutes to sort out.

    2. PatrickEB

      Different in different countries

      “will it run on my network, and does the store I shop at have it?”

      In Australia, for instance, I'm not aware of any instance in which a particular phone will not run on a particular network.

      I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure that it would be illegal for a provider to ensure a phone didn't work - give there is no real technical reason here for that to be the case.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    not true

    "Yes, Android is open source — but not entirely. Google keeps certain portions of its mobile stack completely closed, including the Android app Market and applications such as Gmail and Google Maps. "

    This is just NOT true.

    Those applications are NOT part of the Android operating systems.

    They may be replaced seamlessly by manufacturers.

    The operating system works just fine without them.

  5. kelseyw

    app stores

    Decent article but I can't believe that everyone forgets you are allowed to create your own app store....but with iOS you can't.

    I'm sure we will eventually see the emergence of a 3rd party app store...it seems getjar.com got a great start with the sole rights of angry birds for android...

    1. Paul M 1

      Indeed

      And it's already happening with Amazon and others getting ready to unveil their Android stores. But Steve J thinks this is a bad thing for some reason.

      Look, let's use the man's own definitions. If he thinks Windows is open then for exactly the same reasons so is Android:

      - they run any application you want to load onto them

      - you are not restricted as to where you get software

      - they run on whatever hardware the manufacturer has provided etc etc

      All of which (except for the hardware bit) is also true of OS X so I see a bit of a contradiction here. And even within Apple's own hardware range there is enough variation in size and capability to mirror the fragmentation (or shall we call it "variety"?) of Android hardware.

  6. Sean Baggaley 1
    FAIL

    Had a play with a Samsung Galaxy Tab today...

    ... and, er, the best thing I can say about it is, it's a bit smaller and lighter than my iPad. Would I swap? Nope. My aunt, who was with me at the time, had no trouble playing around with the iPad next to it, but the Samsung Galaxy Tab was utterly baffling to her.

    The UX is *awful*. Sorry, but it really is. All those widgets screaming for attention—remember than scene in Shrek when Donkey kept shouting "Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me!"? Imagine the visual equivalent of that, multiplied by ten. It's *that* bad.

    Gosh! It lets me make phone calls too, you say? WHY!? Who the hell ever asked Samsung for a phone with a 7" screen? People who buy slates will already *have* a damned phone! I'm not going to dig around in a bag or satchel to pull out something like this simply in order to take photos or make video or phone calls when I've a perfectly good [INSERT PREFERRED MAKE AND MODEL OF PHONE HERE] in my pocket.

    And now Google are saying that buyers of this (€699!) insult to usability should expect it to be treated as a "legacy" device in just *four months*? Seriously?

    Way to completely and utterly miss the point, Google. Well done.

    1. Paul M 1

      Re.

      Call me sceptical, but I'm not entirely sure I believe you here. Even if you did play around with one, you seem to have approached it with the intention of hating it.

      But my real question to you is, what the hell has any of this rant got to do with Google?!?

    2. Kay Burley ate my hamster
      FAIL

      You tried a Samsung!

      Try to remember ever using a Samsung that was easy to get your head around. Yes that's right they customised it, they can do that, it's not an iPhone.

      Try a HTC next time.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It works fine as a phone!

      You're thinking in the old ways of doing things. The tablet paired witha bluetooth headset is the way to go.

    4. Neil Lewis

      Why have phone functionality? Easy...

      ... see all those fancy ads for iPads which show people out and about. You'll notice they can't actually use their iPad unless they're close to a wifi hotspot. If you have 3g or better built in, then if you really need to do so, you can use your web-enabled apps anywhere you can get a 3G 'phone signal. Of course, when there is a wifi hotspot handy, you can use that instead, but at least you can still use your device fully when there isn't.

    5. JonHendry

      Side talkin'

      "Who the hell ever asked Samsung for a phone with a 7" screen?"

      I'm reminded of all the pictures on the web a few years back, making fun of that phone from, was it Nokia? People holding ludicrously large objects to their ear like a cell phone.

      1. M Gale

        Dom Joly

        Comedian. Made a lot of money sticking oversized Nokias to his head and shouting.

        Oh, and the occasional Apple device:

        http://www.promisingsomuch-deliveringsolittle.com/ipad-and-the-trigger-happy-cold-open

  7. Cynic
    Pint

    I liked my iPhone - but I like my Android Nexus One better

    When I first got my iPhone I really loved it. But then I discovered over time just how costly it can be to buy everything from a single controlled market. And then there was the whole tethering issues and Skype over 3G.

    I like my Android much better (at least now that I have it on stock Google software instead of Vodafone's "improved" one). Apart from being a portable WiFi hotspot whenever I need it, the other main reason is that even though I'm not hacking it - other people are. And that creates some great apps. For example: Free navigation is not available on the Android phone in Australia (presumably due to some licensing issues). But some clever developers hacked the maps app (renamed it "brut") and made navigation available anywhere in the world based on Google maps data. It works great, has voice instructions and best of all: It is free. It is not even in the Google market - you just download it directly to your phone from their web site and you are all set.

    Yes - I may be a freetard to some - but so what? I've been able to ditch the TomTom, the 3G dongle and just use one device.

  8. Paul Shirley

    it's not about users

    Certain amount of misjudging the audience here on the openness issue.

    End users don't really care about how open anything is.

    But end users don't develop apps, dev's do.

    Dev's do care about openness and this whole spat is aimed at dev's not end users.

    No dev's -> no successful app store -> no point choosing that phone.

    And we can see through the BS coming from Apple without help. Especially the desperate attempt to portray an extremely limited Apple product range as an advantage compared to the vast array of different sized and featured Android devices end users can choose from.

    1. ThomH

      Slight correction

      Some developers care. Definitely not all. And I can't think of a reasonable way to estimate the proportions, other than arbitrarily picking whatever numbers either of us thinks will help our argument.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Joke

        Oooh Oooh

        I'll take ten billion times infinity!

    2. Rex Alfie Lee
      FAIL

      Talking about BS...

      Obviously you know little of what you speak. There may be those who don't care but you can't speak for everyone, especially not myself bcoz I disagree with you completely...

    3. The Other Steve
      FAIL

      Arse gravy

      "Dev's do care about openness"

      No. No we don't. Openness fetishists care about openness. There may be some set intersection there. Those of us who expect to get paid couldn't give a flying fuck about openness.

      As is often the case with the hardcore freetard, your argument is one from your imagination of how things should be and does not match observation. There is a thriving developer ecosystem for iOS, and there certainly always has been for Windows.

      So I'm afraid your rather sweetly naive and idealistic assertion fails the smell test.

      1. Neil Lewis

        Why care about openness?

        If you don't care about openness, then it's probably due to some combination of laziness, ignorance or apathy. None of those are attractive traits, but at least ignorance is easily addressed.

        You have only to remember why RMS got so upset about closed software in the first place to see why genuine openness is important. If only the manufacturer of a device has access to the code that makes it work, then you are at their mercy when it comes to features and support. Manufacturers nasty habits include ignoring bugs or faults until enough people complain about them for it to become a block to sales, deliberately disabling features to make more expensive hardware look more capable and ditch perfectly serviceable hardware the moment they want to sell you a replacement.

        I suppose you like to be treated like that.

        1. The Other Steve

          And by 'remember' ...

          "You have only to remember why RMS got so upset about closed software in the first place to see why genuine openness is important."

          ... you mean 'read on the internet'.

        2. JonHendry
          Alien

          Why RMS got upset

          "You have only to remember why RMS got so upset about closed software in the first place to see why genuine openness is important."

          Um, he got upset in order to make use of all the time he saved by ignoring personal hygiene?

      2. Tom King 2
        Flame

        Way around the point

        Lots of tunnel vision there, Steve "smelly farts"!

        I'm no dev but I personally care that stuff I purchase (yes, ***purchase***!!!) is open. I may never touch the source but I do care that others can so someone can tell if your smelly fart app is actually mining all the data from my phone and sending it to China.

  9. Muckminded

    Enemies without benefits

    Of what use was Jobs' rant to anyone other than himself? I don't see constantly alienating every other tech company over petty issues as a longterm benefit. Apple just had their best quarter ever, fully justifying their reasoning in how they make products people want, yet he still feels the need to over-explain the company's (ie: his) product rationale and split hairs. Um, we get it. Your plan is working. Bravo. Shut up.

    1. Player_16

      He just wants some REAL competition.

      Not 244 Lilliputians in Gulliver's Travels with Android ropes tying him down.

      1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
        WTF?

        Don't be so bloody silly.

        The very last thing Jobs wants is real competition. Why would he? Competition in his market area will reduce his company's turnover and profit.

        As it happens, I think Android is direct competition for the iPhone, and will be for the iPad shortly, too. And I think this is good for the consumer, and for the market. But it isn't good for Apple.

        GJC

  10. Seanie Ryan
    FAIL

    open

    "the definition of open: "mkdir android ; cd android ; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git ; repo sync ; make""

    brilliant... thats EXACTLY what my 13 year old niece, my non-tech brother and sister and my Dad needed to know.

    I'm surprised they havent trampled over me in the rush to pick one up now that I have pointed this out to them.

    1. Adam Williamson 1
      WTF?

      you're an idiot

      yeah, no, really, you are. Did Andy say 'the definition of why your 13 year old niece should buy an Android phone'? No. He said 'the definition of open'. I don't see what the fuck your niece has to do with the price of fish.

    2. TeeCee Gold badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: open

      Too right. Way to reinforce the myth that open software really is only the province of command-line fixated, sandal wearing geeks. I'm absolutely astonished that so many seem to support this statement. If someone from MS had said: "Open is defined as scary techie shit that users won't understand in a million years" he'd have been quite correctly flamed to a crisp for his pains.

      Nice one. Did Andy Rubin put one barrel through each foot there or has he still scope for further foot / barrel related idiocy?

      1. gerryg
        Linux

        @Tee Cee

        I think it might have been a bit difficult to explain in 140 characters or fewer, so completely, without using CLI speak. What you might wish to consider is that everyone here has been able to explain it. (Generically - it's about dogs and barking)

        If my 13 yr old niece - as in the O/P - were running openSUSE on her laptop then for her ease of use I would have enabled the safe repositories, e.g., not factory.

        I'd then show her "terminal" "sudo", and "zypper dup"

        I believe the Ubuntu incantation is fairly similar

        If she wanted to know more I'd tell her more. Of course she might have plans for a career in Comp Sci - in which case using anything other than an open *nix with which she can play, break and rebuild, would be a bit code monkey.

        1. TeeCee Gold badge
          Happy

          @gerryg

          Also correct.

          Which implies that saying this to the entire world in 140 characters probably wasn't the best approach.

          Yes *we* can all understand what that is intended to mean, but I'll bet that the "understanding" of the vast majority of Twitter users was rather different. Considered as a group they're not exactly famed for their collective intelligence or technical prowess.......

      2. foo_bar_baz
        Thumb Down

        @TeeCee

        It was just a tweet, not the headline slogan of an international marketing campaign.

  11. Mikel

    Andy Rubin is a god

    If he had to tweet, that was just right.

    Oh, and Closed = integrated = Cathedral; Open = fragmented = Bazaar. ESR wins again. If you control the meaning of the words you control the discussion, so notch one for George Orwell also.

    Steve J needs to step back from the competitive landscape and get back to cooking us up goodies in his labs. Mangling the memescape is for empty hats like Ballmer who can't do useful work, and that can be hired on.

    1. The Other Steve

      ESR wins again.

      ESR is a jackass. Why don't you get some of your own opinions instead.

      1. foo_bar_baz

        title

        You can be both right and a jackass.

  12. Garibaldi
    Linux

    where is itune equivalent for android

    Google should start making an application for PC, Mac, and Linux which would allow android users to sync apps, music, contacts with their phone.

    Until then this is a smokescreen.

    1. thesykes
      Thumb Down

      where?

      ten second search on the market... yep.. plenty of options there. Don't like the way one app works? Download another. Don't like how iTunes works? Ummm...

      1. PatrickEB

        LOL

        If you don't like iTunes...hmmmmmmmm...hang on! Ring daddy Steve and ask him nicely to "let you" try something else, you know, through the App store. I wonder what daddy Steve would say???

        :))

    2. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      mout the phone and just use

      rsync

  13. Renato
    Linux

    missing just one teeny step

    Even if you can open a shell and do a

    $ mkdir android; cd android; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git; repo sync; make

    can you plug your phone on a USB port and do a make install to upload your fresh Android build WITHOUT hacks like I used to do with cooked Windows Mobile images?

    Mind you, I'm not talking about the Nexus One or the G1, but about the Motorolas and Samsungs out there.

    Android devices are open like a jailbroken iPhone. Darwin source is open source too.

  14. E 2

    A couple of comments

    1. Who has seen Apple's code? IIRC, and I think I do, Apple was famous for having different install CDs for same version of Mac OS 6/7/8/9 which CD would only work on some subset of it's then lines of computers. How does anyone outside of Apple know what shenanigans go on in iOS to get it to run on each successive generation of iSomethings?

    2. IIRC, and I think I do, Mac OS 10 is built on kernel & supporting nicked from Darwin open-source-type-project. What do we call DivX, at least in comparison to XviD? It ain't "open"! Apple certainly is in the same camp as DivX, except Apple does not make a version available for free download like DivX does. So Apple is, oh... wait.

    3. To drag the "Apple makes life easier for the end user" argument is specious: end users of Android (or Linux, or Windows, or Mac OS 10, or ...) who do not hack on their systems - they all have quite serviceable devices. However for people who like to hack, an OS where you have access to the code is more open, plain and simple, than an OS where you do not have access. Jobs is conflating two types of user - technical/hacker and nontechnical/user - to suggest that hie OS is better.

    4. This is opinion I suppose... Jobs & Apple seem to have an almost phobic reaction to the possibility that the OS on one of their products might occasionally crash. All well and good, nobody likes BSODs or Sad Macs. Why is Apple quite so phobic though? IMNSHO, it could only derive from (1) suppressed guilt over foisting the unprotected memory space, cooperatively threaded monstrosity that was Mac OS 6/7/8/9 on foolish and ignorant Mac users for so many years - this is probably a minor issue though; (2) a need to deny stealing and close-sourcing the work of the people in Darwin - here I think we find the real rot at the core. This guilt expresses itself in an extreme need for control over Mac OS 10 - as a way of reassuring the people at Apple, and mostly Jobs, that what they are selling is in fact theirs - because they control it so tightly.

    1. Renato
      Jobs Halo

      Re: A couple of comments

      Regarding your point #2: Darwin (Apple XNU + GNU and BSD userland) was open-sourced by Apple, not nicked by them and closed. What was _never_ open is the XNU kernel modifications made to run it on ARM devices. Still, you could run Darwin x86 back then when MacOS X was PPC only. Go ahead and port XNU to ARM, it's open source after all.

      Somewhat like Darwin & Apple, XviD is a fork of an open source DivX version that was cancelled by DivX and carried on by the XviD people. They went distinct paths and IMHO XviD performs better than DivX (the MPEG-4 ASP, mind you).

      Regarding your point #4: MacOS X != iOS. MacOS X is a general Darwin-based *nix operating system which I can play around freely and introduce any kernel panics I might make by creating an unsigned driver -- based off an Apple open-source driver available on http://opensource.apple.com, create workarounds and unorthodox solutions, and sudo rm -rf / my box anytime I want.

      OTOH, iOS is also a Darwin-based *nix operating system, designed to a specific _consumer_ hardware which happens to have a powerful CPU and plenty of RAM and storage. Its public is not the same as a regular computer consumer: while many hate computers, they love their iPhone/Android because it is easy to access YouTwitFace and specially _it doesn't crash or give some 0xDEAD0666 error because the luser did something idiot_, and they need this controlled sandbox environment to make money and to give a consistent experience to the user.

      I don't have and expect (nor I want) this consistent experience on any computer box I own, being it MacOS X, Linux, Windows, BSD, Haiku or any other OS. But I expect my mobile phone to be reliable, have long battery times and a good interface. Preferably hackable when I want, but this is the geek's desire only. The general public out there just want a phone that access YouTwitFace, takes pictures, plays music, makes calls and is shiny enough to show off to the mates.

      MacOS X user/hacker, Gentooist and Windows Mobile user. No, I won't buy the iPhone (nor an Android) because it doesn't allow hacking and I will wait for a MeeGo phone. Just 'cos it have bash. Or if it doesn't right out the box, I can compile it.

    2. Patrick 8
      FAIL

      @ E 2

      Off to work so only first one to comment on.

      1. Who has seen Apple's code? IIRC, and I think I do, Apple was famous for having different install CDs for same version of Mac OS 6/7/8/9 which CD would only work on some subset of it's then lines of computers. How does anyone outside of Apple know what shenanigans go on in iOS to get it to run on each successive generation of iSomethings?

      I have seen the install code. Its a simple test of pulling the machine model number and then a logic tree to continue installation or not. Its not even compiled code that runs the installer. The reason for multiple versions with shipping products is that the OS X that is on the shelves in the stores does not have all the latest drivers for new hardware that is installed in Mac models released after the OS X on the shelves was released.

      Because Apple does not make users end up with broken OS where they have to gain tech skills and learn how to search, find, and install missing drivers ala Windows they release custom OS X discs with any model with the new hardware. The next release of OS X to hit the shelves will be a generic copy with all the drivers for all the supported Mac Models.

      The only reason you bump into that issue is because you are a cheap bastard who wants to install OS X from someone else's computer's copy instead of paying for it so shame on you.

      But because you are a free loading pirate at heart, yes you can simply modify the install script to always return true on the model tests and burn a new DVD which will install on every Mac, even if its not supported by the OS X if you want.

      bloody whining posers

  15. Bilgepipe
    FAIL

    Open

    Hey, let's all make funny terminal commands.

    ls /Users/Google/IncomingLawsuits

    The ability to compile Android - and hence it's "openness" - isn't relevant to the majority of end users, only geeks and 'tards who can't afford an iPhone.

    This fabled "openness" is resulting on peoples identities and personal data being spread around the Internet by this wonderful Grail of Open Source and it's security-free app store. I'll take the satanic walled garden, thanks.

    1. PatrickEB

      WHAT?

      ...are you talking about??

      "This fabled "openness" is resulting on peoples identities and personal data being spread around the Interne..."

      I'm assuming you mean the 'openness' results in peoples person information being illegally obtained via the Internet as a result of the 'openness' of the system?

      If this is what you mean, you seriously lack even the beginnings of an understanding of how 'the tubes' and free and open source software works.

      It is the proprietary systems which are largely responsible for these problems - even a general reading of tech magazines, research and online-available material will show this.

      Seriously, you are better of in the garden. You need someone to take you in and lock the gate.

      1. Tom King 2
        Grenade

        Padded

        More like, he needs a padded cell with Steve Jobs' picture all over the place.

  16. Richard Fletcher

    Trains

    With apple in charge, at least the trains run on time!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Linux

      #Trains

      >With apple in charge, at least the trains run on time!

      Yeah, but you'd have to buy your tickets on iTunes, would only be able to travel to places Apple liked and you'd probably have to sit in a certain way. I'll stick with my car and the open road.

  17. Mark 179

    Why do you need iTunes?

    Whats with all the "you need an iTunes equivalent" ?

    Have you people never heard of drag and drop ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It's like

      It's like they invented Folders for a reason! It's weird, I mean, I plug my Desire in via USB, allow it to mount and then I can just copy and paste things across.

      It's like it's some sort of mobile computer or something.

  18. Danny 5
    Stop

    to me

    this kinda sounds like the battle between Microsoft Windows and MAC OS, many many years ago.

    now Google is sort of taking the role of Microsoft, windows was a reasonably open and accessible platform compared to MAC's and we all know how that battle ended. i think Apple needs to focus on being a more open platform, or they will see their market share start to dry up pretty soon. Google got the idea with android and is going from strength to strength, i don't think the Iphone, in it current incarnation, is going to be able to keep up. the "wannahave" factor of the Iphone is already ending.

  19. richiel
    Grenade

    The Free World Is So Fragmented !

    Too many opinions, too many parties, too many exccentrics.

    In Contrast to that, the Soviet tyranny was very easy to use. Shut up and suffer or open your mouth and die. Imagine how that simplifies your life !

    Hail To The Steve, Our One And Only Dictator. Hail !

  20. Trygve
    WTF?

    @E2

    "2. IIRC, and I think I do, Mac OS 10 is built on kernel & supporting nicked from Darwin open-source-type-project."

    Well that's odd, because most other people recall Darwin as being a grab-bag of BSD and NeXTSTEP parts that Apple released in order to raise the geek-profile of MacOS 10, which was mostly built from the same pile of parts. How the hell did they manage to nick stuff from themselves?

    1. Ben Tasker
      Joke

      Your not a true fanboi

      Otherwise you'd know that with St Jobs, ANYTHING is possible!

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Open?

    Is Android's code released to the world?

    Is iOS's code released to the world?

  22. paul 97
    Jobs Horns

    apple hyprocrites

    Wasn't it a while ago the fruit fans were all like - no one cares if its open source or closed. They just want it to work.

    As His royal highness the price of darkness has not attacked android for not working - that must therefore be an endorsement of androids quality in that dept.

    Apple is no longer cool - get over it fan bois. I miss the days of jaguar when I was genuinely impressed with their kit. Now its just shiny with no substance or substantial developments and their legal dept important than engineering or design.

  23. deshepherd

    @app stores

    > I'm sure we will eventually see the emergence of a 3rd party app store

    ... haven't Amazon already said they're doing one?

  24. p.stonham

    Open still means something

    For those of us running custom roms I don't think the fact that the core of android is open source has lost it's meaning. I own a I7500, Samsungs first android device, which they dropped support for at 1.6(a shoddy implementation of 1.6 at that), yet thanks to drakaz and others I'm running a decent(and getting better by the day http://code.google.com/p/gaosp/) 2.2. Would this have been possible with a closed source OS? I don't think it would have been and even if it had would have been under constant threat of closure, GAOSP is hosted on google code. As for all this talk of fragmentation it's pure FUD, it's a credit to the andoird team just how little work a developer has to do to support all these devices.

    1. TeeCee Gold badge
      Thumb Down

      Re: Open still means something

      "Would this have been possible with a closed source OS?"

      xda-developers.com says yes! Custom ROM cooking for WinMo has been a feature for many years now.

  25. Anthony Shortland
    FAIL

    too funny

    So when people struggled to compete with Windows, they bitched because of the apps that microsoft bundled with the OS.

    When Apple struggles to compete with Google, people bitch because a couple of apps (market and gmail) ARENT part of the OS.....

    Just proves you cant please everyone really.

  26. Stuart Castle Silver badge

    Open, or not?

    I think both Google and Apple are using their own definitions of Open..

    Apple, for all their faults, are quite open about what measures are used to lock in or track their users. OK, so they tend to bury the notices in reams of Terms and Conditions, but they are there. However, unless you Jailbreak the iPhone/iPad/iPod touch, you can only install Apple approved software. iOS also does not allow much operator configuration. As such, the iOS platform is certainly not open, beyond the fact it's loosely based on Darwin (which is Open Source).

    Google appear to be open, but do not reveal what measures they have in place to track their users unless threatened with Legal action, and even then they will fight it.. As such, Google as a company certainly are not open. The basic Android OS is open, but the versions shipped to end users by the Operators can be locked down. I believe you can still download the Apps from anywhere, but manufacters can lock down things like the UI. Yes, you can root the device and install your own version of Android, but, to my mind, this is no different to Jailbreaking.

    I am not trying to argue that even a Jailbroken iPhone is more open than an Android phone. It is not, just pointing out that Android is not necessarily as open to customisation as people think.

    Now, regarding Steve Jobs's comments about Fragmentation, I only partially agree. As noted above, Google do have a a base configuration for Android, and Android itself has some ability to scale up graphics for higher resolution screens, but, it *is* a fragmented platform. This means that App Developers have two choices. Either to program their app to really make excellent use of the facilities of one particular Android phone (in which case, they risk alienating 90% of their target market) or to optmise an app for the base config of Android and maybe allow it to scale up (which will not make the best use of the hardware).

    Windows PCs are in a similar postion. Most developers are coding their Applications for whatever the base config for Windows happens to be at the time, then making tweaks (such as improved graphics) so it can scale to higher powered machines.

    I suspect most android developers do the same. If an Application is created this way, it won't be much more labour intensive than developing for any Apple product (be it a Mac or iOS device). The downside is that the Applications will not take full advantage of more powerful hardware.

    This is why games for consoles like the Xbox 360 can often still look good compared to games on PCs, despite the console being up to 4 years old, and the PC being a new, high end, PC. The console developers only have one set hardware spec to optimise their code for, so they can really take advantage of it.

    Personally, I think from a consumer point of view, both the closed approach used by iOS and the open approach used by Android have advantages and disadvantages.

    Android has the advantage that you can install pretty much what you want, but the disadvantage that this means you can catch virses, which could cost a lot of money (imagine what would happen if someone bought up a load of premium rate lines, then wrote a virus that kept dialling them and you caught it). You could run a virus checker, but this would suck both battery and CPU power from the phone, both of which can be in short supply.

    iOS does not (unless jailbroken) allow you that freedom, but does not suffer from Viruses to the same extent as Android .

    Android has the advantage that it can access multiple App Stores. This disadvantage to this is that not all apps will be available at all app stores, and even where they are, they may not be up to date. It can also get confusing for the user. The advantage is that it does mean a wide range of software is available, if you know where to look.

    iOS (again unjailbroken) offers only one App Store. The advantage of this is that you can get any approved iOS software there. The disadvantage is that Apple's idea of good software may not match your own.

    1. TeeCee Gold badge
      WTF?

      Re: Open, or not?

      "iOS does not (unless jailbroken) allow you that freedom, but does not suffer from Viruses to the same extent as Android ."

      Really? Last time I heard, the only phone platform that had ever had a verified, spreading virus in the wild was the, er, iPhone.

      Has there been a nasty Android one recently that I missed (actually at least two would be necessary to qualify for the "not....the same extent as" bit of that)?

      1. Keith 21

        Are you REALLY telling us there are no Android viruses?

        Really?

        So you deny http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1727325/android-virus-spotted ever happened, I take it? Note that this virus doesn't do something as simple as damage your installation. No, it steals actual real money from you. Nasty.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Yes there have been trojans for Android in the wild.

        A few months ago in Russia, which lacks (or did so at the time) a Google Marketplace, there have been at least two trojans in the wild for Android phones. And those were standard phones which weren't (the equivalent of) gaolbroken, too.

  27. oliver Stieber

    banned

    So on the I Jesus phone only Jesus apps work, but you can pick a range of different phones to suit you robotic daemon overload desires.

    I choose porn.

  28. The Other Steve
    Linux

    I feel a great disturbance in the clue

    It's as though a million idiots typed ./configure; make; sudo make install all at once and were silenced.

  29. E 2
    Unhappy

    Plainly I have lost my touch

    I did my best to post quality troll bait and nobody bit.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Partly open...

    Some networks have stretched the definition of "open" more than a bit.

    The operators often want to stuff their handsets full of "branding" crap. Measures are put in place to stop you flashing anything other than a network approved image. These are often delayed months after the generic SIM-free versions by the manufaturer, if they ever appear at all: they don't want to harm new handset sales do they?

    Sure there are ways to root the device and get round the flashing limitations. Minor snag though is that this is claimed to invalidate the warranty.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Linux

    Who needs a smartphone?

    Most people only use a phone for basic calls. It's technology gone mad. I don't have a facebook or a twitter account so I don't need to check it. I'm fairly certain that 99% of people that have facebook and twitter don't need to check it whilst on the move so all of these 'apps' are meaningless. 'Apps' that tell you where your phone is if you whistle. 'Apps' that do x, y or z. It's daft. A phone is a phone. I'll stick to my Fedora desktop and a normal phone (one that makes calls and sends texts) thank you. I don't need any of this technological claptrap regarding the ability to access the entire internet and update my status pages every 10 seconds. It's balls.

    Also I won't buy anything from Apple on principle.

    1. Oninoshiko
      Coat

      In my day...

      TEXTs!?! bah! Why in my day we didn't have TEXTS. We just had calls, and THAT was if we ran up the hill carrying the bag, it was a clear day, AND polaris had risen on your sign! You whippersnappers today with your "texts," and G3s!

      Thanks for my coat, I'll need my cane too!

This topic is closed for new posts.

Other stories you might like