Computer grads can't even get jobs offering personal services

Low quality compsci garduates

Perhaps it has something to do with the abysmal quality of recent computer science graduates.

At my previous job we were recruiting and interviewed the best of the bunch who claimed to have good C, C++ or C# experience on their CV's. We gave them a little puzzle which involved writing some code to solve an anagram given text file dictionary. We weren't expecting a fully debugged program in the language of their choice after half an hour, but at least something to indicate they understood the problem and could break it down in to logical steps. Many of them didn't manage a single line of code, and most didn't have a clue on how to read a word from a one word per line text file. In the end we rejected all the graduates and went for a guy in his late 50's, who might of started on Cobol, but had the thought process of a programmer.

"Personal Services"

Assuming the stats were using HMRC's definition of a Personal Services Company, that simply means that a lot of biologists have started or joined very very small companies. In fast, the only reliable definition of a "Personal Service Company" I could find was here: http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/what_is_a_personal_service_company.aspx

relating to contractors.

"And so the term personal service company began to be used by HMRC to describe businesses they considered as tax evaders and potentially the subject of tax investigations. "

And this is HMRC's take: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ir35/

Of course this is much more boring than assuming the statistics mean there are 165 prostitutes or escorts who could represent you in court.

Really?

I cant say I find recruiting graduates particularly easy. If I put adds on Monster I get flooded with immigrant graduates with visa issues. The university graduate recruiting network is no better and not much cheaper. In fact I would say more expensive.

I left with the impression that the computer graduates were being snapped up before I got a look in.

So what the heck is going on? Or at the stats distorted by foreign students?

Dedication

I was a reasonable student at University, I attended most lectures and I did ok in the end.

Although I wasn't the best in my fields, I had dedication to help me. After graduating, in the space of three months I applied for around 300 jobs. I did free work to gain field experience and when I started my first job as IT administrator for a product company, I was still working two jobs. After 6 months, the company I had done free work for approached me and offered me a job.

It may not be the best solution but it payed off well and I'm enjoying everything I do!

More likely to reply?

Firstly those who are jobless are likely to have more time on their hands to respond, and they probably feel like a whinge too... likely skewing the statistics upwards...

Secondly, was this an electronic survey? Something unemployed CS graduates are probably quite likely to reply to...

Hmmm how good are the stats?

and then you have the complete opposite

Like in my case for example: 1st class honours I.T with 1st class honours in MSc computer networks and making 9£.50 an hour managing 3 physical servers with 2 virtual machines each, running Exchange, ISA, File sharing etc etc. I work in central London at an hourly rate below that of the company's secretary.

Yes, it is a small company but it deals with real estate and there is lots of money involved so there is no excuse for them to treat me like I am the office cleaner.

Posting anonymous for obvious reasons.

Unrealistic Expectations

After graduating from university last year and doing the run of job interviews I found most companies had very unrealistic expectations of CS students. They seem to think that by having a degree in the field would mean you would have a god-like knowledge into a highly specialized area or language. (We aren't all autistic. Some of us like to go out as much as the next man).

A CS degree is meant to be broad and would ideally teach multiple, different programming languages. Rather than churning out specialists in certain areas universities attempt to produce people with general skills so they can adapt to the changes in technology, languages and current fads.

If you're a company looking for someone who knows "the pros and cons of W2K8 verses RHE" straight out of uni and are unwilling to provide training then you're an idiot. The whole point CS graduates can be picked up for cheap is to offset the training cost. There seriously is no point getting someone to spend 4 years learning the in's and out's of today's tech as by tomorrow it will only be used to prop open the comms room door. It's far more important to teach the fundamentals in a broad array of areas so they can then go on to enter into any arena they choose and still be able to have a grasp of what's going on.

Perhaps...

All of these Comp Sci graduates should spend their time bettering themselves by doing a Cerco course. These lead to an industry recognised qualification and could lead to a salary of around £30,000 per year in the exciting field of PC maintenance; and demand for qualified IT maintenance technicians has never been higher. They'll even help you find your first job after "graduating".

So there you go. No excuses...

Unrealistic Expectations ...... pahhh

Your post gives me no sympathy. I think that too many courses churns out candidates with absolutely no practical skills.

I'm a CS graduate. I employ CS graduates now. I'm now of the mind that I take little interest in their grades but a heck of lot of interest in their final year projects and hobby projects. The good graduates I say I need XYZ, we dont know much about that ourselves, go figure it out. The good ones do.

"are unwilling to provide training then you're an idiot." - I think you are the idiot. If after your course you dont have enough breadth of learning to pickup a book and or try things out for yourself then you are a lost cause. You sound like the type of graduate that needs to be spoon fed. Go work in a factory where there is a fix set of instructions and you dont have to be too creative or work under your own initiative!

Take a lower paid job to get into the industry

If you want to work in IT, even with a degree you may have to take a lower paid job to get in to the industry.

A degree doesn't give you a right to a high salary, but work experience in the field will open alot of doors. After graduating in CS albeit 12 years ago I took a very low paid position to get some one the job training and work experience. All came good in the end.

Admittedly market conditions are worse right now, but if you are determined enough there are opportunities out there.

It's not hard to see

why some of the people in this thread can't find jobs

"sorry I can't do this, can't do that, won't work for that salary"

Why did you apply for the job then? Clearly you either didn't read the job description or you thought you'd turn up and waste some of their time.

Don't say "oh sorry uni never taught me that", say "can I do a little research and tell you the answer next week?" It might be corny but at least you won't look completely clueless.

CS is just a means to an end

I don't think they teach run of the mill CS students about real life problem solving. The truth is that most anyone can write program code these days but that's not programming. The essence of programming is understanding the problem you're trying to solve, not knowing which of the tens of thousands of API calls is the one that will solve it for you.

My son recently graduated with a fairly mediocre degree in Applied Math. I was looking forward to enjoying his company for the indefinite future while he found a succession of meaningless jobs, the sort that my friends graduate kids have ("barista", anyone?). Two weeks later he's in work, allegedly temporary but (according to the boss/owner) likely to be full time when they can swing it. He's programming, of course. They employed him because he had math skills, then discovered in very short order he could program......

University Grads are NOT the Problem

Recent university grads have always been ignorant. This is nothing new. It was like that 15 years ago when I started in IT and it's like that now.

What's changed? The employers. Companies want to hire people who can "hit the ground running" (corporate BS for "we have no training program and no one willing to mentor"). So, sink or swim. Also, what use to be 2 or 3 jobs several years ago is now a single position. We've all seen those positions advertised where you need to be a programmer, network admin, DBA, and a graphic artist all rolled into one. So, no one is ever qualified. Then there's the arrogance where companies assume that universities should be teaching the very specific set of skills that their company just so happens to use.

University grads have not changed. Companies have and it's not for the better.

you can't call yourself a Computer Scientist

Unless you own a copy of Knuth's books.

Plugging in network cables isn't CS. Sorry folks.

Just ask an interviewee about the running time of an algorithm. If they don't know what you're talking about move on to the next candidate.

Nah, it is worse than that.

How 'bout the physiotherapy grad who could only find work as a care worker?

I mean, had she not studied hard at school or in her graduated area of expertise and just squandered time on nothingness then she still would have found work as a careworker.

Strange ol' world, innit?

RE: RE: Unrealistic Expectations ...... pahhh

K, I was the "pahh" initial responder.

Firstly I dont think you guys (graduates) made it clear about what you meant by training. As an employer, I have been asked by interviewees about what training we provide. To which as I responded earlier is "none".

Research time for an individual is not training. Research time I give to everyone in my workforce and a bit extra to the graduates. This is NOT training.

@University Grads are NOT the Problem

"So, no one is ever qualified. Then there's the arrogance where companies assume that universities should be teaching the very specific set of skills that their company just so happens to use."

Correct, welcome to the real world. If you want to go to university to learn a topic for a joy of it thats good for you. But dont come bleeting to me because I wont give you a job because you offer no useful skills. And certainly dont tell me I AM ARROGANT BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO USEFUL SKILLS. Go back to the job center, get an attitude re-adjustment, self-teach yourself something useful and see if then someone will employ you.

@Hmm #

Great attitude. You WILL find employment and very likely have a great career. A breath of fresh air.

@It's not hard to see

I agree.

@Indeed

Again great attitude. If I can get someone that can program and have a 1st great. But frankly, the practical exam is the most useful.

@When I interview graduates

Well, sounds like you are more thorough than myself. I certainly get them to do a practical and like yourself I get them to choose their own language. The test is actually pitfully simple but I've had candidates at it for 2hours in the extreme and produce rubbish while on did it in 20mins with what can only be described as a reference solution. In fairness, I found that graduates so far have faired better than many so called veterans who are looking for work. But still it is suprising home many software engineers graduates cannot do any basic amount of coding in OO (in the language of their choice).

The difference between the foundation and the building...

What most graduates fail to understand is the point of education is to lay a foundation on which to build.

If any recent graduate thinks a foundation alone is sufficient to land a high-paying job, let's pray that same graduate avoids the construction industry. A few nights on a roof-less, wall-less concrete slab should be enough to convince anyone at least to look around for some padding and a means of making a waterproof cover.

Labored analogy aside, I agree absolutely with those who look at a student's NON-required activities. Passion is as important as programming skill, and C++ without curiosity makes Jack Graduate a dull - and unemployable - boy indeed.

Those who complain they can't get the job without experience, but can't get experience without a job, are lazy, at least in my estimation. They want experience handed to them, but are unwilling to take an available opportunity to increase their knowledge and skills, simply because it doesn't pay, isn't interesting enough, is "beneath" them.

I worked in an IT department early on where one of the technicians refused to read the daily news/tech/info pages/patch/update alerts the rest of the group did. Work requires continuing education to stay ahead and afloat, plus we were being PAID to learn. An unofficial degree for free, in a sense, and a chance to become increasingly employable.

The technician simply didn't want to read all that "stuff". He made it clear he had enough to do already, and others should let him know if any of the news was relevant to his job.

In the end, one either continues to learn, by any means available, or one's career dies. His did.

Sure, additional advanced degrees make the foundation stronger, and can even give you a jump on the rest of the structure.

But sooner or later, graduates who have no interest in improving themselves tend to be un-improvable by any means. All too often, they are also are the ones who pad resumes or out-and-out lie in order to land a position.

Those who decide on a degree or a career based solely on salary averages, depressingly think money is the measure of what one does, the benchmark of success and happiness. Well, I certainly don't claim it's unimportant, and I truly despise companies that ask employees to do more and more for less and less (and don't even get me started on executive compensation)

That's not why you decide on a field of study, though. You do it because it interests you, perhaps more than anything else--a subject you would pursue whether or not anyone paid you to learn it.

If while still in college you never look beyond your classes; are unwilling to improve on your own, or try to gain experience, whether paid or not; at some point you seriously need to ask yourself: is this really what I want to do?

If not, don't expect wild success in your job interviews.

Pip Pip

cordwainer

What's...

The traditional way of addressing a Grad?

"Big Mac & Fries Please!"

Universities are not for job training

Ok, perhaps those that were polytechnics are.

University education is for the individual, to teach them to think and to train them in the theory behind their chosen subject.

It isn't a course in visual basic or microsoft "networking". If employers want that they can jolly well pay for the training themselves. If students want that then they should find a btec or poly or whatever they are called now.

Bah humbug, I've thrown "Access for Dummies" in the bin and I'm off to the library to find a book on relational algebra and Cod's law.

THE Problem ...

... is generic to all current new college graduates. They've been told since they were toddlers they could do anything they want to. One result of that teaching philosophy is new college graduates believe they should start at the top, or near the top. They have no concept of "paying your dues" or as we once of the military learned ... "time in rate".

Unless you're learning surgery, or some other ultrasophisticated skill such as surgery, a college degree is little more than a right of passage. Problem is the current herd of college graduates actually believe a degree gives them the skills they need to do the job they might get hired for. Once they face the "learning curve" of specific job skills they need in their new position they instantly feel cheated or lied to ... or both.