Who still uses paypal?
As service goes, even the worst actual bank has trouble sinking as low as these yoyos are fond of doing. Might be the ebay influence, or maybe the other way around, who knows. It quite evidently is hard to low out on, though.
PayPal suspends India service
PayPal, eBay's payment system, has suspended all payments to personal accounts in India. In fact the online payment service took the action on Saturday, but its UK arm still doesn't know how long the suspension is likely to last. A blog post says personal payments and transfers to Indian banks have been suspended "while we …
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Tuesday 9th February 2010 16:57 GMT Usko Kyykka
Too many news of this sort
for something that is supposed to be financial entity, where trust is essential, and once lost tends to stay that way. Personally I closed my account when (once again), they freezed wikileaks' account. It is my understanding that if/when one gets scammed when paying with Paypal, the outlook of getting (all) the money back (all the way to your bank account) is rather dim. Ultimately, if shove comes to push, they could and probably would try to weasel out of their responsibility by making issues of applicable law, venue and so forth; resolving an issue of e.g. a goods not delivered is difficult enough with a domestic bank which by definition of 'domestic' operates under the laws of your jurisdiction.
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Tuesday 9th February 2010 18:15 GMT Brian 6
@ Usko Kyykka
"It is my understanding that if/when one gets scammed when paying with Paypal, the outlook of getting (all) the money back (all the way to your bank account) is rather dim."
I used paypal to pay for a service that I neva received. After informing paypal my money was refunded in less than 24 hours.
I think its you thats rather dim.
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 04:22 GMT Anonymous Coward
@Brian 6
But people use that exact principle to extract money...
Paypal will not, or do a very bad job at "investigating" fraud.
Received Bricks? Sender used recorded postage? You're stuffed.
Buyer claims item is faulty? Returned a box of bricks with recorded postage? You're stuffed (for money+item).
You use your account from 2 different addresses... paypal will hold your money.
Someone else in your household uses the same account... paypal will hold your money/suspend your account etc.
And a billion and one other reasons....
I have been on the receiving end, buyer claimed the item was faulty (I said f-off it wasnt), they said to paypal after trying to get me to refund them directly using a cheque before they would return it (lol unlikely, using some fake legal department too), they tried to resell my unit, then eventually returned it, with the wiring loom cut up (and half missing), I wired it up to a bench supply to show it was working (useless in real terms without the loom, cost wise to build etc) I sent a video to paypal... all of this, they didn't care... 5 years on their fake debt collectors keep telling me they can take me to court (only paypal can take me to court, and they haven't yet). Plus lots more stuff to show it was a scam, all sent to paypal.
Thing is, this is not an uncommon incident.
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 04:26 GMT Anonymous Coward
Dim Bulb?
As it turns out, Usko's experience is far more common than yours. Simply do a few quick googles.
We're all overjoyed that you received a hand- er, excellent service from PayPlop, but your experience is not necessarily representative of the majority. Like Usko's, it is simply your own personal experience.
Methinks the bulb that is dim is not Usko's...
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Tuesday 9th February 2010 21:41 GMT BoldMan
if you are an eBay buyer...
If you are a buyer in eBay you'll get your money back no problem, even if you have no feedback, based in a country known for scamming and even if the seller has proof of postage as I foudn out to my cost last year when a camera I sold on ebay "never arrived" and PayPall deducted the money from my account ignoring all my proof of postage etc etc
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Tuesday 9th February 2010 18:15 GMT Paul 25
I'm still using PP unfortunatly
Currently PayPal are the cheapest way to accept payments online without forcing your customers to signup for an account.
All the other options, such as Google, require you to have an account with them. PayPal let you just use your credit card.
There is a huge potential for someone to develop a proper alternative to PayPal, that doesn't charge you a fortune for the privilege of just having an account, and then screwing you on charges.
With PayPal I only pay for what I use, no setup fees, no recurring fees, just about 3.5% of the transaction value. And there is no need to muck around with merchant accounts.
Annoyingly there isn't anyone that comes close to that. So for small operators like me who are just starting off, it's still the only viable option.
I'd love to move to something better, so if anyone can recommend something please do.
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 03:38 GMT Hugh G. Rection
Me too
I agree. My wife runs a little online business that makes us a few hundred pounds in a good month, and PP is the only viable option with that kind of turnover.
I've been researching alternatives for a few years now, and none of them are both affordable and available worldwide.
Worldpay would seem to be the best option if turnover was to increase to several thousand pounds a month, but until then we're stuck with PP. It's unfortunate because PP have such an appalling reputation that using them as the only option must be enough to put off a lot of potential purchasers.
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 03:38 GMT Blain Hamon
Make sure you have a backup, asap
http://blog.apparentsoft.com/business/124/is-paypal-good-for-your-microisv-business-a-short-paypal-horror-story/
If nothing else, have a second account with a different processor, one that has no recurring fees, so that when (not if, when) paypal screws you, you can switch and keep the cash flow (more or less) while you try your best to get unscrewed.
As for something better, I know that kagi is popular among indie Mac software makers. Paypal has lower fees, but much higher risk.
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 21:46 GMT PT
Me too
I agree. For a real example of scam artists you can't top credit card merchant services. If a user claims fraud or a lost card, they'll yank the payment right out of your bank account regardless of whether you have funds to cover it, AND charge you penalties on top. If you complain, even with proof that the customer is a bare faced liar, they just shrug and say the amount is too small to bother about. And let's not even mention the extortionate monthly fees. PP may have its problems, but I wouldn't accept online payments for anything if I still had to use a merchant account.
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Thursday 11th February 2010 10:42 GMT Pascal Monett
I don't get it
Don't you people have Visa or Master Card ?
You can pay plenty of things with one of those, and it works like a charm.
I once did get a second charge of €400 from a shady dealer, but I pointed it out to the bank and they refunded the money immediately without trouble.
Of course, my Visa is on a proper bank account, from a real bank where I can walk into an agency and yell my head off at some poor teller if there is a real problem.
I don't, never have and never will use PayPal, because I learned early on that PayPal is not a bank and certainly not a pal.
A real bank has the obligation to follow your instructions concerning your money (ie give you your money when you ask for it). A real bank cannot lock you away from your own account without an order from a judge, given during a proper legal procedure.
PayPal takes your money and then does as it pleases with your account. In my book, that is fraud and extortion, and PayPal should be dragged to the nearest wall and shot multiple times for having managed to implement their shoddy practices on a world-wide level.
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Tuesday 9th February 2010 21:41 GMT Anonymous Coward
Problems Shipping to India
We found a high rate of fraud on shipments to India. Now that PayPal is protecting sellers against charge backs on eBay shipments to India I am not surprise if they are pulling out because of losses associated with fraud.
A pity we will stop shipping to India again for all payments except bank wire. Yes eBayers in India must be upset but the good suffer for the bad.
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 03:38 GMT Anonymous Coward
@Brian 6
You were lucky then. PayPal generally do not refund money for services.. and if you say it was a service, the dispute will often be closed with a generic closure message.
If you bend the truth and say it was something ordered that you never received through the post - they will then get involved.
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 10:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
Paypal's "We did nothing" defence
When there is even the possibility of argument in a dispute, Paypal (and other bankers) will undo the part of the transaction it performed, so that Paypal has done nothing, therefore you have no claim against Paypal, even though the thing you sold was never returned. As a way of getting paid for real world goods or services, it is flawed. You can never know if you've really been paid.
Although it happens only rarely, I've had the same experience with the conventional banking system. Bankers will blithely tell you that a cheque has "cleared for fate" after, say, 3 days, and that there is no possibility of the transaction unravelling. But I've banked a cheque and had it reversed 3 months later. "The paying bank indicated that the transfer should not have been executed" was the mysterious and secretive explanation from Lloyds. Fortunately only a few hundred pounds, but an eye opening experience all the same.
If you truly want paying for something, accept only cash or barter. You will have to close your bank account after receiving payment if you want protection from the bankers taking it back later.
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 12:08 GMT Equitas
Who's to Blame?
Paypal is a mess -- but who's to blame?
The banks have let us down badly -- still no simple, cheap way of transferring money over the internet. Even credit cards have largely been ruled out as an economic means of international transactions due to high currency charges and many US businesses not accepting credit cards from outwith the USA.
The regulatory authorities have let us down badly as well -- when things involving PayPal go wrong it seems you can lose when you're buying and lose when you're selling.
Banks are abolishing cheques -- but have no idea what's to replace them by way of payment mechanisms for (for example) businesses and charities which at present use double-signed cheques. Is there not a case for the government and the regulatory authorities to step in and require implementation of a simple, cheap method of payment which can be done over the internet?
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Wednesday 10th February 2010 14:13 GMT Anonymous Coward
Not quite as bad as the noise that's made...
...on the other hand:
I have had a PP account for years. I have used it for buying and selling on eBay and online shopping - and PP is conveniently becoming more and more popular with bigger online stores. The two times I had problems with transactions PayPal responded promptly and refunded the money to my account without any quibbling. Also, a friend of mine bought something from the US last year which never arrived and after contacting PP he was refunded within a week.
Of course there are horror stories abound, I've read many of them, but there are many, many people that use PP successfully that just don't feel the need to make any comment. I am very glad I've got a PP account. It allows people to pay me directly without any fuss. Nothing is perfect, granted, but if it really was all that bad PayPal wouldn't have lasted the course. They are still here and that's an indication that people find the service extremely useful and use it because they have confidence in it.
Of course, more competition would be good.
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