Nice work, uk.gov
'However, she said that passport info was not "readily held in a format to enable a further breakdown of those resident in Manchester"'
They don't have addresses for passport applicants?
Manchester ID staff suffer isolation as new dawn fades
The people of Manchester have either lost all interest in travelling abroad and drinking, or couldn't give a monkey's about the government's lame duck ID card scheme, if a commons answer is anything to go by. Manchester is the first big trialling ground for the ID card scheme, before a broader trial across the rest of the …
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:49 GMT Adam Salisbury
Perfect example...
This is a perfect example of why they shouldn't be allowed to do this, they're obviously far to stupid to develop a decent system; if they truly can't filter passport applications by address then they're idiots, if they can and don't know how then they're monsterous idiots and if they can, they know how but won't tell us, then they're untrustworthy. All of the above are reasons not to allow our luddite politicans anywhere any valuable data
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Thursday 21st January 2010 14:26 GMT Anonymous Coward
What grave yard did they dig her up from?
BS!!!
select count(*)
from passport_table
where city = 'Manchester'
and
application_date between '30-NOV-09' and '15-JAN-10'
Execution time: oh, perhaps 10mins on a slow system that isn't indexed.
If the passport data is not held in a database in year 2009, and if passports are not printed by a printer running off a database I will eat my f**ng hat!
She's a liar.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:07 GMT Nomen Publicus
Perhaps nobody knows...
While there have been full page ads in the Metro free paper and I've seen exactly 1 online ad on a web page, there has been no other visible advertising at all.
OTOH, how difficult is it to work out that the ID card doesn't permit travel to the America, Africa, Australia and other non-european countries so what is the point if one already has a passport?
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Thursday 21st January 2010 14:40 GMT Anonymous Coward
It makes perfect sense...
It's not suposed to replace the passport full stop, but I travel within Europe regularly and actually find it annoying that I have to carry my passport with me at all times (yes in some countries you are supposed to have ID on you at all times), so the ID card for European travel makes perfect sense... it fits in your wallet, so you don't have to carry the annoyingly large passport with you all day.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 12:33 GMT MinionZero
@I could be put on a watch list
Don't worry, with a comment like you just made, give it a few years, then you will be on a watch list ;)
(After all, how long before they workout who posts what to which forums, then go and datamine the entire forum on each site, so they can build a profile of each poster. The Internet is an ever growing database of our thoughts ready to be data mined). The more we speak out in the next few years, the more in the longer term we doom ourselves later if our speaking out now fails to stop their push towards total control. :(
I can't work out if they are all utter fools for getting the ID cards now, or if they have tried to be first so they could get something which in time could become a collectors item, in which case its more like an investment. Anyway, whatever we do or say, it seems they are going to force these bloody cards onto us all one way or another. So even if we kill the ID cards, the new passports sound like they will be able to function like the ID cards in everything but name. Its not an ID card, its a biometric RFID passport. Oh joy.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:08 GMT Anonymous Coward
Waste of time
What's the point? You carry a drivers licence for ID and have a passport for going abroad. And if you try to use the ID card instead of your passport there's every chance you'll be turned away before you even get on the ferry or plane. I wouldn't enjoy being the only person who can't show a passport in the country of destination. The Spanish official would whisk you off for an interview post haste.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 14:41 GMT Anonymous Coward
No problems...
The passport is large and doesn't fit into your pocket easily (well not unless you want to keep replacing it every five years if you are a frequent traveller because of damage). The ID card fits into your wallet, and so make life easier. Why would you want to carry around Europe a passport which is of much higher value if lost or stolen when you could slot a bit of plastic in your wallet?
As for being turned away with your ID card, I've now used it on six flights and one Eurostar journey without problems.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 16:11 GMT Anonymous Coward
Papers please, citizen.
"Why would you want to carry around Europe a passport which is of much higher value if lost or stolen when you could slot a bit of plastic in your wallet?"
Because a passport is not linked to the Orwellian database known as the National Identity Register (NIR)?
Here's hoping the Tories win the next election and fulfil their promise to scrap the entire evil scheme.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 16:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
scaremongering as usual
Why are people so scared about a database which holds information which the government already have on you anyway?
Name - they already have in various databases
Address - Same as above
D.O.B - Same as above
NI Number - Same as above
Photo - already on the passport database
The only extra data they have with an ID card currently is your fingerprints, and these will soon be collected when applying for a passport.
All the NIR is actually doing is linking data together....
If you've already got a passport they've already got the majority of the data anyhow, so I really don't see the problem. As usual it seems people are just scaremongering for the sake of it.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 18:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
Pandering to authoritarianism as usual
"Why are people so scared about a database which holds information which the government already have on you anyway?"
Why are some people so accepting what the government's PR spin says without researching for themselves?
For a start there's those civil servants types with track records of efficiency and keeping personal data safe ... oh wait! Do we really want all the Tom, Dick and Harrys in any kind of public employment to have access to all our personal data in one easy-to-use query? The police already have enough trouble with people using PNC checks for illegitimate reasons, Coppers who hate their neighbours or suchlike; what about the hundreds of thousands of low-paid civil servants ... will they all resist the temptation to pull records for criminal purposes?
By making ordinary life reliant on a complex system administered by civil servants, where the onus is on the individual to ensure data is current and correct (fines if you don't) makes for a state such as that depicted in the movie 'Brazil'.
"The only extra data they have with an ID card ... All the NIR is actually doing is linking data together"
The ID Card and NIR Bill adds 50 categories of registrable fact -- an index to all other official and quasi-official records -- which means one's entire life and interactions with the state will be tracked; moreover, they're bound to add private data at some point in the future, banking has been talked about, so they can check your accounts and ensure you aren't somehow avoiding tax.
Furthermore, the bill also allows for adding any extra data when and if the Home Secretary sees fit, doesn't have to go and get a darned democratic mandate from parliament.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 18:44 GMT Graham Marsden
As usual...
... someone from the "Nothing to Hide" Brigade misses the point and it's more than a little ironic that you post from behind the shield of being an Anonymous Coward!
The point is not that the data is held on "various databases", the point (well, one of them) is that all that data will be held on *ONE* database and that it will be *YOUR* job to ensure that *THEY* have the right information and *YOU* will be punished by a fine if you don't!
And whilst the Government has been claiming that "have no plans" to make it compulsory to carry these cards, it's clear from what's been leaked that that is their ultimate aim, breaching the long established Common Law Right to "Go about your lawful business without let or hindrance".
Your Zombie Arguments have already been comprehensively knocked down in previous articles on El Reg, why not go back and actually look instead of digging them up once more?
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
database
"Fingerprint biometric passports are due to kick in from 2012, at which point anyone seeking a passport can also get an ID card."
So there you have it, from 2012 whether you "choose" a passport or the ultimately pointless ID card alternative, your biometrics are stored on the same funky database. Presumably to be shared, lost and sold by anyone with even a moderately plausible excuse to access the database for any reason.
Hopefully the world really will end in 2012.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 11:24 GMT Keith Oldham
Re : The next NuLab Stick?
Not that I've ANY support for the ID card scheme but you really can't beat people with a stick that doesn't exist. According to the BBC ( which I'll trust for this over even El Reg)
"Bar staff and retailers required to demand proof of age of anyone who looks under 18"
and
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_184257?cid=rss
"make sure all alcohol retailers check the ID of anyone who looks under 18 to prevent underage drinking"
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Thursday 21st January 2010 11:48 GMT Ihre Papiere Bitte!!
Over 18? And the rest...
"Bar staff and retailers required to demand proof of age of anyone who looks under 18"
"make sure all alcohol retailers check the ID of anyone who looks under 18 to prevent underage drinking"
Which is great, BUT how many outlets (both retail and bars) are currently operating a "Challenge 21", "Challenge 25" or even "Challenge Every Fucker Who Wants Anything At All" scheme? I'm 35, and a few months ago was asked for ID to buy a packet of cigarettes FFS*.
*Co-operative supermarket, under their Challenge 25 policy. I haven't looked under 25 since I was 12.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 12:28 GMT Gulfie
Challenge 'x' is all very well...
... but if I'm ever challenged for ID in relation to age restricted purchases it will simply prompt me to say 'no'. And leave without paying for anything.
I started drinking in pubs at 16 and was only ever challenged once - at age 24 by a doorman of a London 'over 21 only' pub. And, sadly, that was many years ago. I lived in the US for a short while and it drove me mad that as somebody in their 30's I still had to show my passport to get entry into bars (but only at the weekends, wierdly).
But seriously, there is such a thing as using your judgement when faced with somebody wanting to buy alocohol/tobbacco/knives/sniffable substances/peanut butter* - if the checkout staff can't exercise theirs, then I can't be bothered to give them my business.
*lethal in the wrong hands!
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Thought Experiment
You are a minimum wage checkout jockey.
Accidentally (or otherwise) selling certain items to certain people carries penalties, ranging from dismissal to fines.
Certain people walking out of the shop in a huff because you've asked them for ID costs you nothing.
Do you:
a) err on the side of caution;
b) err on the side incaution?
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Thursday 21st January 2010 12:30 GMT Fred 21
ID'ed for Lemsip Plus
Thats nothing, I *recently got challenged for ID to prove I was over 16 so I could buy some Lemsip (Max Plus). I am clearly over 16 and (at the time) clearly suffering from a cold but they refused to sell them to me. I had to get my missus to buy them (she looks younger than my 30 years but she had ID).
I hadn't even realised there was a age limit to buy Lemsip!
* Morrisons
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:32 GMT Anonymous Coward
2,000 interested my arse!
Actually suggests that people in the survey got hassled on the street and wanted to get away quick...
"Would you consider getting an ID if it made everything easier and brought about a new dawn of peace and properity?"
"Yeah alright, anything! Look I have a bus to catch, are we done yet?"
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:13 GMT EvilGav 1
And . . .
. . . how many of those 1,300 people are ordinary members of the public, linked neither to the LieBore party or to the body actually administering the cards (whether at a local or national level) ?
Equally, I seem to remember a figure close to 3,000 being quoted before christmas as the number who had requested an appointment, at which point the numbers look even worse.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:13 GMT Adrian Challinor
Please check the text here ...
"Fingerprint biometric passports are due to kick in from 2012, at which point anyone seeking a passport can also get an ID card."
Do you mean CAN or WILL ?
Of course when Baby Minder Cameroon gets in, he will cancel the ID card project so he can pay for new labels on alchopops.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:13 GMT Paul Hates Handles
Marketing spin...
...I was reading the Metro in Manchester the other day and there was an ad for the ID cards, touting them as being capable of protecting you from identity theft.
They seem to be marketing it not as an ID card but as some kind of security device that will somehow stop the stupid getting ripped off online. If you're stupid enough to buy into the ID card scheme nothing is going to save you from being made rich by a nice man from Nigeria.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:16 GMT Derek Hellam
New dawn fades eh
So the people of Manchester Passover the identity card, short of a Candidate or two for Browns Eternal quest for regimented people. I'm sure that for those that took it up, it will be nothing but a Novelty. Can't wait for these Leaders of Men to force us to use it, then we will see some Disorder. Eventually I expect other forces to come into play. It will be part of a Ceremony for new citizens, but that would take Decades to implement. How many have applied for these so that they can see how hard it will be to copy or forge, a Means to an End? Meg Hillier must feel that She's lost control, These Days, seeing how government have no Insight in what people really want. No love lost from the people of Manchester.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:48 GMT Anonymous Coward
Since the P&O story...
I have been more aware of that rather tatty A4 page behind the counters of shops saying what ID they accept. Still not seen one of the new ID cards listed as accepted ID anywhere i have seen others listed (banks, POs, shops, supermarkets). I am in London, but still, where is all the marketing money going if not to update exactly this kind of info?
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Thursday 21st January 2010 10:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
Red Herring
I think the whole thing is designed to distract us from the biometric passports.
Once your fingerprints, photo, address, description and SO's passport id are all related it's going to be very hard to hide your identity. "Great!", say the Daily Mail readers, "That'll stop those immigrants coming over here and eating our swans!" And it is great, as long as you agree with your government for the rest of your life, trust your government to protect the data, never get wrongfully accused of a crime and don't find yourself needing to join a witness protection programme. You can't change your fingerprints.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 11:24 GMT Vladimir Plouzhnikov
Expensive collectible
A unique collectible they may have got but they've also got their personal details on a database, which undoubtedly will soon be sold widely to identity thieves all over the world (although if the number of entries will remain so low no self-respecting identity thief will probably buy it).
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Thursday 21st January 2010 11:48 GMT GreyCells
Bargain
Only £384 worth of marketing per card? So just another £25 *billion* required in marketing funds to get the whole UK population on board. Bargain. Good to see our taxes well spent.
Of course not all 1,300 actually went all the way through and ended up with cards quote: "have applied and attended an enrolment appointment for an identity card"
Note the political semantics.
I think we need a bigger epic fail icon...
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Thursday 21st January 2010 11:48 GMT Elmer Phud
Missing something?
""have applied and attended an enrolment appointment for an identity card"
Now, where does that say how many have actually got the cards?
And no, it will not go away once Dave the Twat is at No 10.
The various vocal right-wing minority supporters (UKIP/BNP/TPA) will all be hassling the Daily Maul readers for protection from 'forriners' and will be demanding everyone to have I.D. cards.
To think it's all down to the current lot of incompetant incumbents is like hiding under the duvet until the monster has gone. Wake up - you say you don't want it but you are going to vote for it as a law'n'order thang - then you will blame it on others.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 12:30 GMT Captain Mainwaring
For those who don't look old enough...
For those unlucky souls who are blighted with an eternally youthful appearance and find difficulty in being served in pubs and clubs around the country, there is a cheaper alternative to the National ID card. It is the excellent Citizen Card, an officially-approved ID card that can verify your age for age restricted goods and services and available at the bargain price of only ten pounds.
Oh, by the way, it is not suitable for continental - bound P&O ferries from Hull, for that you will need a full National ID card!
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Thursday 21st January 2010 12:34 GMT Guy Herbert
@ Elmer Phud
You seem to have spotted the typically nuanced Home Office announcement, but missed the fact that UKIP and the BNP have both been opposed to the ID scheme from the start.
I don't think the TPA has any position on immigration per se at all (any more than NO2ID has). But they were among the spendidly motley collection of signatories objecting to "ID cards for foreigners":
http://www.no2id.net/downloads/TelegraphLetter27NOV08.pdf
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:12 GMT Elmer Phud
Missed it
Nah, BNP and UKIP (BNP with suits) are only too happy to jump on any available bandwagon as long as it can be made to seem as if it's heading in thier direction.
Both bunches of fascists want to keep foriegners out but findit convenient to use No ID to gain votes. They both are isolationist motherfuckers who would have some form of checking the suitablility of residents if they ever got any power or influence.
Both are relying on a slate of hating anything non-UK despite their public faces - the ID thing is a smoke screen as both are well-versed in populist lying to gain support.
I'm really not as dumb as thier followers seem to be.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:10 GMT John Smith 19
Well done Katherine Courtney & Stephen Harrison
Katherin is (or was) the Direc tor of the HO identity cards programme and Stephen heads (headed) the ID card policy unit at the HO.
Without the fanatically committed work of these two little know civil servants it could never have happened.
Perhaps El Reg might like to provide some photos of this dynamic duo, who have so contributed to putting the UK on the cutting edge of population management.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:12 GMT John Smith 19
And watch out for the biometric passport
This is the one some people want to make a "reportable document," IE report changes of address, marital status or any of the other 50 odd shings the ID card (Schedule 1) lists.
Still gives the "It's not compusory" spin but still covers a hell of a lot of people.
140 days tops to go before regime change.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
And its only a matter of time...
You know, I can think of a great way of reducing the loss of government data.
All they have to do rename the 7:33 to Paddington, "The public records office",
and all of a sudden, when some idiot leaves a folder or a USB stick on the train, its not a case of "Some overpaid muppet left all your personal data on the train", rather its "Your personal data was alas stolen from the Public records office by some unscrupulous journalists."
A plan with virtually no flaws methinks.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:32 GMT Mike Byrne
half a million quid
"The government has been spending almost half a million quid trying to publicise the scheme in the city, touting its uses when travelling to Europe and clubbing."
As a Manchester resident and someone who commutes about the city on a daily basis and who reads the Metro every day - I haven't seen one single piece of marketing material to push the ID card to me.
Where has this half a million been spent?
I wish I won that contract :-/
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:32 GMT AndrueC
I call bull!
So Meg Hiller is effectively saying "We received over four hundred thousand passport applications last year but we don't really know where they came from".
Either incredibly incompetent or she has very little respect for the public and can't be bothered to even come up with a decent excuse.
Oh and as a side story my colleague is applying for passport 'online'. According to their site the way it works is that they take the information and print out a form. They then send the form to you to sign so that you can send it back. Impressive use of technology there :-/
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Thursday 21st January 2010 13:41 GMT Anonymous Coward
Meg hilller
So Meg Hiller is effectively saying "We received over four hundred thousand passport applications last year but we don't really know where they came from".
Ah but you forgot the second bit:
... So if anyone applied for a passport last year, there all waiting here, cos we lost all your return addresses. Sorry.
I assume.....
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Thursday 21st January 2010 14:29 GMT Captain Mainwaring
National ID Cards, useful throughout Europe.
Just come back from local Sainsburys superstore where I witnessed a young German student from the local Uni, attempting to purchase a Bacardi Breezer type alcopop drink. The checkout assistant asked her for proof of age and after waving away her student ID as unsuitable, the young woman produced her Personalweiss (German National ID card) to prove that she was indeed over 18. With rather a puzzled look, the checkout assistant called over her supervisor who carefully checked the student's strange new ID credentials. After a minute's muted discussion, the supervisor then announced to the young freulein that this type of ID was not on their list of accepted ID and that she would have to return with her Passport to complete the transaction!
It would appear then that a EU national ID card then can legally allow you to take residence in any EU country, but not to be an acceptable form of ID when purchasing age-restricted goods from the local supermarket. I wonder if our UK National ID card would be treated with the same disdain on the Continent as this student's National ID card was here? If it is not accepted as a general means of personal identification and a national passport is always required for personal ID purposes, then the card is basically just a sawn-off mini passport, with few practical applications outside one's own country of residence.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 18:36 GMT Paul 25
Why it's not accepted
Whether a form of ID lets you buy alcohol is simply a product of whether your average cashier can actually spot a legit one.
I couldn't tell you what a German ID card is supposed to look like, but I could take a decent stab at spotting a fake German passport.
A border guard will know how to recognise a legit German ID card, because that's their job.
Oh, and I seem to remember reading that currently the Germans don't accept the UK ID card at their borders yet, for precisely this reason, they have yet to train up their border guards/immigration officers.
It's up to the county you are visiting to decide if it will accept a form of ID or whether they want to let you in. Just because UK.gov decides the ID card is legit, doesn't mean other countries automatically have to honour it.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 14:34 GMT Anonymous Coward
Ahhhhh - one moment, please.
"Fingerprint biometric passports are due to kick in from 2012, at which point anyone seeking a passport can also get an ID card."
Will get an ID Card?
Will have the option of applying for an ID card, will have a record prepared for them that will accumulate other data?
Will be asked if they want an ID card as well and, if the option is declined, no further action will be taken?
Just a clarification, please.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 16:11 GMT Cameron Colley
I read it as "will get an entry in teh card database".
The only option being whether you want an ID card to carry around or not. By which time the police will have the power to arrest anyone who can't prove who they are when questioned under section 44.
You don't think that this shit will stop just because some other puppets are "in power" do you?
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Thursday 21st January 2010 16:06 GMT John 62
time to get a new passport
Last time I renewed my passport was a few years ago and I paid the horribly expensive price for getting it done there and then in the local passport office. Now it's more expensive for the normal service than it was for my same-day one. My current passport runs out shortly after the biometric stuff comes in, so I might just get it renewed early to save hassle later.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 18:36 GMT markp 1
So that makes it... how much per person?
Dunno if someone's done this and I've missed it, but...
£500,000 publicity...
1,300 takeup...
that's, what, £385 spent per take-up? not to mention all the other unlisted costs such as wages and production. Even if it had been 10x more successful that's still a fair whack and shows where the money charged to the applicant goes - not towards anything worthwhile that's for certain.
What a bloody waste.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 23:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
@Paul 25 Verification of the ID card
You raise an interesting point. Surely the whole point of this ID card nonsense is that the card is verified by having a reader and an online check with the ID card database?
If that's done, then the ID card doesn't need the the personal information held on the front of it.
There's a design flaw anyway, because the card has information on the front, which overtime will become out of date and require the re-issue of the card just for that, whereas all that should be on the card is a unique ID number and perhaps possibly the person's name.
So by stupid design of the card itself, the government has created a system which will definitely require the card be replaced periodically and all the expense and bureaucracy that goes with it.
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Thursday 21st January 2010 23:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
Desperation
It's patently obvious why people aren't adopting the card.
1) They don't see how spending the money on a card benefits them
2)They don't want the card because of civil liberty issues.
It's a sign of desperation when they advertising is based on a complete lie that it helps prevent ID theft. The card is completely passive, ID theft is coming from people's online habbits using the computer, from their private documents containing information being left out in rubbish sacks and how they use their credit/debit cards in restaurants/petrol stations etc.
The ID card doesn't influence any of that.
As for benefits, can be used for international travel? My passport does that. Why should I spend a significant amount of money on something which simply duplicates something I already have?
If that's their unique selling point, if this is all they can come up with, then no f**ng wonder the cards not taking off.
The only way they're going to get people to part with their hard earned cash is:
1) Demonstrate there is some tangible benefit to owning the card
2) Compel people to have one by introducing a law which forces people to present one when buying a product or service, such as buying alcohol, a flight ticket or a government department's service such as benefits.
The whole thing shows you just how naeve and stupid the government is when it comes to marketing.
As a public, we can make this card fail.
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Friday 22nd January 2010 00:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
Nothing to hide
I've stopped reading the nothing to hide, nothing to fear posts. Anyone with a brain cell knows that a completely useless argument and people writing such drivel deserve my contempt.
To those, I say, go and get an education, open your eyes and look around at the news media and see what's been going on.
Only yesterday it's came out that the American FBI were creating false terrorist security alerts as a excuse to gather information and telephone records.
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Friday 22nd January 2010 09:45 GMT Rob Foster 1
Send it Back
The day one of these things plops through my letterbox will be the day I post it off to Number 10 (recorded delivery of course) with a polite note explaining that I didn't request one.. I would suggest that if everyone who objects did this, Downing Street would soon disappear under a mountain of plastic. Then maybe they'd get the message.
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Friday 22nd January 2010 12:57 GMT Anonymous Coward
Advertising this s*** everywhere
Has anyone else noticed the amount of flash advertising they are inserting into webpages (online newspapers and others) to get people to sign up for this?
I hope nobody in frustration with being bombarded with this propaganda (that we are paying for) fills in the application forms with bogus details and addresses them to No.10 / Labour HQ etc....
This topic is closed for new posts.
Biting the hand that feeds IT
