Brexploitation
A great new word, shame its needed though
Brexflation: Lenovo, HPE and Walkers crisps all set for double-digit hike
A second wave of double-digit price hikes are coming to a reseller or retailer near you from the start of next month, both Hewlett Packard Enterprise and Lenovo have confirmed. Since the referendum, the UK's currency has fallen from $1.49 to £1 to $1.21, a drop of 18.7 per cent and many IT makers have reacted, from the cloud …
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 12:49 GMT Mark 110
Re: Brexploitation
It is a great word. Not sure its correct though. If I was accounting in dollars I'd need to raise my £ / day to my clients too to maintain the same income. Not exactly exploitation (apart from maybe Walkers) - just making sure they recoup the same dollars as they did before.
Howabout:
- Brexaclysm
- Brexident
As for Farage, not sure he cares. He is quite happy for the whole economy to go into meltdown as long as we keep Johnny foreigner out.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Brexploitation
Farage is waiting for the economy to tank so that the country will cry out for a strong leader.
So lets check:
+ Gives speeches in drinking Establishments
+ whips up racial intolerance
+ Dresses like a twat
+ Destabilises country
+ Resigns only to come back as nobody can fill his shoes
Yep. Country waiting for a strong leader.
It's depressing just how much he is following the play book.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 19:55 GMT YARR
Re: Brexploitation
The change in currency value was caused by currency speculators, not Brexit (political independence) which hasn't happened yet. The productivity of workers in Britain v the EU has not changed one jot, so in real value terms nothing has changed. The currency change is because we have a non-asset backed currency whose value we allow to be determined by gamblers.
Why single out Farage, when the other major political parties have all had leadership elections post-Brexit? A significant event like Brexit requires a major change in policy for each party which is usually a prime opportunity for new leadership. In the case of UKIP, Farage has achieved exactly what he set out to achieve so it's now appropriate for someone else to chart a new future for the party.
It's obvious to anyone with perception that the EU's goal is to create a superstate, centralising power for an elite and disempowering the populace. Free trade was used to convince us to join, along with false promises that we would always remain an independent country. The truth is we don't need to surrender our sovereignty to free trade. All those baseless comments claiming that Brexit is "wrong" or "silly" are meaningless without justification. If you really think that short term price rises caused by speculators are a bigger issue than who makes our laws, then I wonder is there anything you wouldn't sell off for a price?
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 20:33 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: Brexploitation
"If you really think that short term price rises caused by speculators are a bigger issue than who makes our laws, then I wonder is there anything you wouldn't sell off for a price?"
First I need to disabuse you of something. Ultimately neither the UK nor the EU, either separately or in combination are in complete control of what happens here or in the rest of Europe. Nobody is. We live in a world in which all sorts of complex interactions take place. Various people can drive bits of the system but we all have to live with the overall result. Sorry. Your simple view of how things are isn't real.
Secondly the value of any currency relative to any other is determined by the market - what rates people are prepared to exchange currency at and what amounts of any currency they're prepared to pay for particular goods and services. It's not speculation, it's trade. Overall people place less value on sterling than they did. It's going to be a fact of life for a long time and it will have a significant effect on any British govt's to determine how life is lived in Britain irrespective of any legislation Parliament passes. You got your Brexit vote through. Stop trying to blame others for its direct consequences.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 21:05 GMT YARR
Re: Brexploitation
"the value of any currency relative to any other is determined by the market" ... " It's going to be a fact of life for a long time"
The yuan is pegged to the dollar, The Chinese government can choose to intentionally overvalue or undervalue their currency to their benefit. When you allow the value of your currency to be determined by market forces, that means the wealthy have greater influence and can manipulate the currency to their benefit rather than to the benefit of your country.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 01:17 GMT YARR
Re: Brexploitation
"The fault is 100% the Brexit vote because everyone else on the planet, apart from extreme Leavers, now appreciates that the UK's economics prospects are now diminished as a result of that vote"
I can't speak for the rest of the planet, but if I want to buy something from abroad, my concern is what it costs to buy which is a function of real productivity and tariffs, not where laws are made. I don't refuse to buy something from abroad because their government isn't part of a supranational political block.
"Pegging one currency to another has a history of ending in tears"
Locking or pegging? The Yuan is periodically revalued, but clearly it's change in value does not reflect the very different growth rates of the two economies. Isn't it remarkable how they pull that off when we couldn't keep the Pound tied to the Deutshmark even when our growth rates were similar.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 11:15 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Brexploitation
Locking or pegging? The Yuan is periodically revalued, but clearly it's change in value does not reflect the very different growth rates of the two economies. Isn't it remarkable how they pull that off when we couldn't keep the Pound tied to the Deutshmark even when our growth rates were similar.
But the Chinese economy is a highly-managed, centralised beast. The currency's value is determined almost solely by the Party machinery. That brings certain benefits, and certain dis-benefits. In my view, and the view of the vast majority of "westerners" the dis-benefits of such a system outweigh its benefits. It's also connected with a very different culture and worldview from "ours". I really don't see it working in the UK.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 23:17 GMT TVU
Re: Brexploitation
"The change in currency value was caused by currency speculators, not Brexit (political independence) which hasn't happened yet. The productivity of workers in Britain v the EU has not changed one jot, so in real value terms nothing has changed. The currency change is because we have a non-asset backed currency whose value we allow to be determined by gamblers."
That is complete falsification and economic denial. The fault is 100% the Brexit vote because everyone else on the planet, apart from extreme Leavers, now appreciates that the UK's economics prospects are now diminished as a result of that vote and so the currency has accordingly crashed. It's simple cause and effect and every single Leave voter contributed to the pound's crash.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 12:32 GMT Pen-y-gors
Cause and effect?
"Since the referendum, the UK's currency has fallen from $1.49 to £1 to $1.21, a drop of 18.7 per cent "
Ah, yes, but that's pure co-incidence. Correlation is not causation. There are many factors behind the drop in the value of the pound, none of them remotely to do with Brexit which, after all, is the glorious salvation of us all, and will lead to us all being so wealthy we can have a staff of Lithuanian and Polish servants to cater to our every whim (erm...maybe...there may be a slight flaw in that plan)
Anyway, the drop in the pound is obviously caused by the cycle of Jupiter's moons, as any fule kno.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:19 GMT Sir Runcible Spoon
Re: Cause and effect?
Doesn't this mean that UK goods are now more attractive to overseas buyers? That should be good news for the few things that are still manufactured here, but it should mean that more manufacturing gets done here (for things where the materials can be sourced locally anyway).
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 17:03 GMT David Pollard
Re: Cause and effect?
... UK goods are now more attractive to overseas buyers [o]nly to the extent that they don't depend on imports.
When the pound devalues with respect to all other currencies, the cost of the imported component of goods which are re-exported remains constant in terms of external currencies. With a 'weaker' pound the sterling cost of the added value in such re-exports becomes less expensive in terms of external currencies. So trade dependent on imports does become more competitive, albeit by a smaller amount than goods or services which are wholly sourced within the UK.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 20:20 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: Cause and effect?
"So trade dependent on imports does become more competitive, albeit by a smaller amount than goods or services which are wholly sourced within the UK."
Which was my point. Although once wages start chasing the inflation caused by the £ devaluation and all the other stuff even that advantage goes.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:57 GMT Pen-y-gors
Re: Cause and effect?
"I hear Poldark's mine has found a new lode of tin"
But seriously though...we do still have supplies of ore under our green and pleasant hills - tin, lead, copper, silver, even a bit of gold. But unfortunately we don't have them on a scale to make mining them even vaguely competetive with other countries. The Welsh copper industry died in the late 1800s when it became cheaper to ship ore from Chile for smelting in Swansea than to mine ore from 100 miles away.
<sarky Remoaner point>But in the future we can get back to our traditional cottage industries of taking in each other's washing and living on turnip soup while singing happy potato planting songs, and not have to worry about the cost of importing raw materials or even manufactured goods. I'll knit my new telly out of brassica tops I think.</remoan>
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 22:29 GMT P. Lee
Re: Cause and effect?
>"Since the referendum, the UK's currency has fallen from $1.49 to £1 to $1.21, a drop of 18.7 per cent "
Still it appears that there's an opportunity for someone to start selling crisps who doesn't incur these costs by keeping everything local.
Hands up - who thinks leaving the EU will actually add 18.7% onto the cost of sales (to the EU)? Does this extra cost apply to all non-EU countries? Can someone explain why all this is priced in USD rather than Euros? Ah yes, that's why, if we look at the Euro-to-GBP data we find (from xe.com) that GBP is almost 10% up against the Euro's value in 2008 - a relatively recent low-point with no "We're all doomed" Brexit story. As the villain said, "there's no news like bad news!"
Excuse me while I fail to weep for Big Business and selective news editors.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 13:37 GMT Steve Todd
Re: Cause and effect?
Unfortunately most international trade is priced in USD. Oil for example, even if it never goes anywhere near the US, is priced in USD per barrel. Most electronics manufacturing happens in China, who wants to be paid in USD. Result: computers and other IT equipment goes up in price.
Walkers may have a hard time justifying their price increase (energy costs will rise, as will the cost of imported potatoes, but that adds up to a cost price that has changed by small fraction of the exchange rate delta), but HPE and Lenovo have a fair point.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 12:50 GMT 45RPM
Brexit is an annoyance to me, as a good European, but I’m in the fortunate position of being able to weather the financial storm. I may well get caught in the Brexit inspired rounds of redundancies, but I reckon I can weather that too - although it will be rather annoying.
The people I feel genuinely sorry for are those people who are less well off than me who can’t afford to weather the turbulence around Brexit (which will most likely be long-lasting), and who voted to remain. This isn’t their fault, and they’re genuinely suffering for it. It’s not enough, but I will continue to support the food-banks so that (at least, and I hope) these people won’t suffer.
Anyone who voted for Brexit and who is now suffering? I’m sorry (and I’m aware of how heartless and cruel I am), but screw 'em. They voted to shoot their feet off, and I’m not going to give them a lift to the hospital. It’s unfortunate that I can’t mark my food bank donations ‘Remainers Only’ and expect my wishes to be honoured, so I end up accidentally supporting the dullards too, but that’s just the way it has to be if I want to keep supporting the deserving poor.
I implore you all, make a donation to your local food bank every week if you can afford to. It’s more important now than ever - and don’t forget the toiletries and sanitary products too. And if you are in desperate need of help (particularly if you didn’t vote for this mess), please don’t be too proud to visit a food bank.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:41 GMT Anonymous Coward
"I implore you all, make a donation to your local food bank every week if you can afford to. It’s more important now than ever [...]"
As I go into the supermarket every day - each time I donate the equivalent of the cost of a cup of coffee from one of the branded chains. To make the donation go further I choose suitable discounted items - or bargains on selected branded lines from B&M or Aldi.
The cost of a cup of coffee isn't much of a deprivation - but it mounts up over a year.
I also stockpile seasonal things for when the local food bank volunteers do their special Xmas collection day. A trolley load early in the morning raises their spirits.
The only problem is that the local food bank uses their web/twitter pages only intermittently - usually to say how many families have been fed. Rarely do they indicate what their remaining stocks are like. That makes it difficult to double guess what items to donate across the various categories.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:12 GMT Pen-y-gors
Food banks
Obviously, providing food banks is a good way to help those who have ended up left behind by the system, and at least makes sure that no-one starves. They may be cold and homeless, but at least they have some food.
But, as usual, I'm in two minds about the approach of having collection bins at supermarkets. Obviously they work, and they let donors feel they have done something specific and 'good', but they are horribly inefficient. @AC gives discounted and branded items, but if people gave money to the same value, then the food bank could buy cases of goods wholesale from the cash and carry, and get even better value.
The same goes for people giving food and clothes etc to be driven across Europe in a battered van to help refugees. Cash to an organisation who can source things in bulk, locally, is much more cost-effective and also helps support a local economy rather than Tesco's shareholders.
And how about people how spend hundreds of quid on a plane fare so they can spend a few weeks in Rwanda (or wherever) helping to build a school. I think the locals are probably quite good at building - but the cost of the plane fare would buy a lot of materials to help them get started. I'm not saying that someone with specialist skills shouldn't fly so that they can transfer those skills, but rich kids doing a bit of cement mixing and painting makes me a bit ambivalent. Yes, the experience hopefully does them good and makes them more conscious of other people and their lives, but is it cost effective?
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:35 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Food banks
"[...] but if people gave money to the same value, then the food bank could buy cases of goods wholesale from the cash and carry, and get even better value."
Agreed. Unfortunately the local food bank doesn't appear to be a registered charity to claim Gift Aid - and there is no indication of how they would handle the governance associated with financial donations. My impression is that it is a loose group of volunteers - and a local business provides a small amount of storage space. After last Xmas they had to close their collection points for a few weeks because they had no more room to store the influx of donations.
Our Waitrose supermarket is apparently the most productive of the local food bank's collecting sites - even though it is much smaller than the nearby Tesco, Asda, or Sainsbury's stores.
Rather cynically I shun the local churches' collection points - as too often it is used for PR about how "good" their religion is. It appears to confuse my religious neighbours that an atheist can do charitable things for the sake of simple humanity. If they gave to charity the money that they are obliged to give to run their religious organisations - then they would be able to do much more.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 13:04 GMT Dan 55
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
You have to shift all that money abroad. That's getting more expensive now.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 13:16 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
simply growing potatoes
Potatoes are going to get significantly more expensive (same as any "British" fruit and veg).
They are collected predominantly using seasonal labor which comes mostly from Eastern Europe and is paid in Euros or Euro equivalents. If their salary is reduced by 20% they will simply not bother to get over here and pick the stuff. So if any of them were not paid in Eu to start with they have already asked for a 20% rise.
Ditto for a large percentage of other stuff relying on cheap labor like car washing, etc. There were 5-10 Bulgarians and Romanians in the beginning of the year in my Sainsbury parking lot. There are now 1-2 left because the money they were sending back home simply no longer adds up. And so on.
So anything dependent on imports goes 20%. Anything dependent on imported manual labor goes up 20% too. What will be the inflation in the new year now is in totally "god only knows" territory, but it will not be what the Bank of England is forecasting. No way.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 13:51 GMT kyndair
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
re: Voland's right hand
Also profits need to be kept up and when those profits are declared in a currency other GBP to keep them up prices need to be raised, after the city was given promises and ceo bonuses are at stake.
re: Dan 55
Law and Ethics have very little to do with each other especially tax law, people spend a lot on money on clever people who then help the tax authorities write the law to make sure it looks solid at first glance by everyone else and that they can legally move
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
> Ditto for a large percentage of other stuff relying on cheap labor like car washing, etc. There were 5-10 Bulgarians and Romanians in the beginning of the year in my Sainsbury parking lot. There are now 1-2 left because the money they were sending back home simply no longer adds up. And so on.
Shush, otherwise the UKIPers will believe the that the Brexit vote has had the desired effect.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:53 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
Shush, otherwise the UKIPers will believe the that the Brexit vote has had the desired effect.
The vote has not. The pound drop has.
It is however as in an old Bulgarian/Serbian/Macedonian/etc joke:
Q: "Ivan why are you laughing with glee after your house burned down? Why are you happy?"
A: "The neighbor's shed burned down too".
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:54 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
"If it were fresh air the crisps would go off sooner. They're actually packed in nitrogen, which does come with a cost."
[more pedantry]
Fresh air is 80% nitrogen. It is presumably the waste product from the industry that extracts the oxygen and and other gases.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:50 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
"So anything dependent on imports goes 20%. Anything dependent on imported manual labor goes up 20% too."
In the 1960s an old timer had an apocryphal anecdote to explain an inflation chain. It started with the wood seller's wife wanting an extra 5/- for her bingo. That cost was passed on at each stage of the wood being sold, processed, and turned into products - together with the maintenance of profit margins. The end result was a general increase of a lot more than 5/-..
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 17:01 GMT David Beck
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
Potatoes are harvested by machine. There is almost no manual labour involved, at least this is true in countries which do not have access to a supply of cheap labour. If the cost of labour moves the UK into the 20th century in farming methods it can't be all bad.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:40 GMT Rich 11
Re: Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of the article...
However, most of the volume of the packs is fresh air.
[Pedantry alert]
If it were fresh air the crisps would go off sooner. They're actually packed in nitrogen, which does come with a cost.
I know this due to a cousin who worked briefly in the Walkers factory in Grimsby. She left for a job in the job centre, because haranguing unfortunates was less soul-destroying than being a robot on a production line.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 13:45 GMT smartypants
Points-based immigration system
It's about time London implemented a points-based immigration system so we can finally TAKE BACK CONTROL. We don't say that we will *stop* nationalists and xenophobes entering the capital to campaign for an end to the judicial system, but we just think there should be a quota of them (perhaps 6?). We do have our own nationalists and xenophobes of course, and we will do all we can to protect their number from 'dilution' by outsiders with funny accents streaming down the M1 like a river in spate.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 06:19 GMT Yes Me
Re: Points-based immigration system
Um, the actual evidence, e.g. from Australia, is that points-based systems don't actually work well. They're cheaper to operate, compared to applying intelligent judgment to applications, but they are relatively easily to fiddle and hopelessly inflexible when real human beings are involved.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 13:45 GMT Anonymous Coward
I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
My brother (like me) is a UK/EU national. We were both born and bought up in the UK, and consider ourselves "British" before our secondary nationality.
He's been working in the US for a few years now, and noted with interest, that his employer (in an R&D heavy arena) has already started to ask UK employees if they hold another EU nationality. And regardless of their fate, a policy is now running of making it a definite bonus point in two equally-suitable candidates.
Apparently, the talk at conferences suggests this is not isolated - a lot of organisations which work internationally in R&D are preparing for a future where travel to the EU for a UK citizen is beset with visa and immigration woes.
So thanks to Farages hideous pub landlord caricature, UK citizens are rapidly becoming disadvantaged, despite "taking back control".
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:04 GMT Michael C.
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
This is such a ridiculously minor point about Brexit. I don't suspect people who voted for huge changes in how the country is governed cared a great deal about a very minor reduction in their employent prospects in multinational US companies.
Seriously, this is enormous 'constitutional' change like we've almost never seen before and you're talking about this. It demonstates a vastly different set of concerns between people like you and the people who voted for Brexit, the Venn diagram basically doesn't touch at all.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:11 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
I don't suspect people who voted for huge changes in how the country is governed cared a great deal about a very minor reduction in their employent prospects
Deliberately cut you off because of a sweeping claim for which you provide no evidences. I personally think that most people care a lot more about their employment prospects than they do about alleged constitutional issues (immigration policy to the UK is unlikely to change within the next 10 years).
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:17 GMT Mark 110
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@Charlie
I completely agree. Being out of contract for the first time since 2008 (it was 4 months back then) I am getting increasingly worried. No work at all is not minor. I've also had to cancel my cleaner and make other cut backs.
I'm not sure my cleaner can tolerate the loss of half a days earnings a week very well. Though as she is Polish the Brexiteers will no doubt be pleased she has lost employment.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:21 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
Though as she is Polish the Brexiteers will no doubt be pleased she has lost employment.
Well, surely not the ones who use Polish cleaners? The problem with the xenophobia is that it pretends it can be selective and that there are "good" foreigners and "bad" foreigners: the good ones being the ones who are of direct use to us and the bad ones the ones that we have to compete with for something (jobs, housing, schools, etc.); in any given situation they can be one and the same.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:43 GMT Michael C.
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
Let me correct you on two of your mistakes, I said people who voted for Brexit, so I'm not talking about everyone, and I'm talking about a very specific and minor point with regard to employment prospects, not employment prospects in general, which sounds much graver.
Your response only goes to further confirm my analysis that what you consider important is completely out of step with what Brexit voters consider important. That's my opinion, as a Brexit voter.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:51 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
with what Brexit voters consider important
So you claim to speak for them all? Or that they all voted for the same reasons? Doesn't seem to be what the demoscopes say but, as we all know, they lie just whenever they can. Just like all the "so-called" experts do. Even so it is a bit remarkable, don't you think to claim that 17.4 million people could all vote the same way for the same reason and this being completely antithetical to the other 17 million.
And has anybody changed their mind since June? And will anyone change their mind if their employment prospects at a multinational (GSK, Walmart, Nissan) change?
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:03 GMT Michael C.
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@Charlie: numerous post-referendum polls have shown that idealogical reasons like sovereignty and identity were more important to voters than anything else, e.g. http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:40 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
"numerous post-referendum polls have shown that idealogical reasons like sovereignty and identity were more important to voters than anything else"
So why are the Brexiteers now whining because a British court has re-emphasised the importance of the sovereignty of Parliament, something which has been central to British government (or control if you prefer the term) for over a third of a millennium?
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 17:07 GMT codejunky
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@ Doctor Syntax
"So why are the Brexiteers now whining because a British court has re-emphasised the importance of the sovereignty of Parliament, something which has been central to British government (or control if you prefer the term) for over a third of a millennium?"
Because we were finally given a referendum and that 'result would be carried out immediately' by our PM and agreed by MP's only for them to realise that democracy does not always return the result they want even after it was rigged. Finally asking our view to get the result and then complain because it requires they actually do their job does not make over half the voters happy. Instead of upholding that third of a millennium tradition they have just taken a dump on the voter.
And of course when they extend this behaviour to the things you and other remain voters care about you will be livid, while over half the population will wonder why you think you opinion would matter when ours didnt.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 17:51 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
"Because we were finally given a referendum and that 'result would be carried out immediately'"
I posed this in a previous thread. Nobody replied. Maybe you'd like to try.
From the text of Article 50:
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
What are the constitutional requirements for the UK to do this? Please quote the authority for your answer.
As another commentator has said in this thread, it's a major constitutional change. As such it's surely imperative that it be done legally. In fact, as I said in that other thread, I'm in favour of HMG's appealing it up to the Supreme Court.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 09:41 GMT codejunky
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@ Doctor Syntax
"1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements."
I have no problem with that. I dont argue against that nor oppose it. What I do have a problem with is the absolute certainty and immediacy of the result and then action which was absolutely promised and loudly shouted as the decision full stop and nobody seemed willing to oppose that view. Had the vote returned the 'right' answer the referendum would be an absolute wish to be carried out to the letter with the full weight of our governance behind it no matter how small the margin. Instead we voted to leave and yet it is now debatable.
Interesting how the CPS have been told to look into the leave campaign lies (and they should) but yet the government went far beyond that. Again you may agree with this set up as long as it suits you but how happy will you be when it is a matter you care about.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 10:13 GMT Dr_N
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
>>"Interesting how the CPS have been told to look into the leave campaign lies"
Concerned you may get your collar felt for some of your previous posts in El Reg comments section?
>>"Should I be telling you all to shut up and move on? "
The irony is obviously lost on you. That was the whole gist of "Leave" post-vote.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 12:48 GMT codejunky
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@ Dr_N
"Concerned you may get your collar felt for some of your previous posts in El Reg comments section?"
No why? By the way if your quoting me please dont chop of the very important bit of the section you are attacking me for or you look like an idiot. What I posted (with additional highlighting) is "Interesting how the CPS have been told to look into the leave campaign lies (and they should)"
"The irony is obviously lost on you. That was the whole gist of "Leave" post-vote."
So hang on. Your telling me I should shut up and move on because I lost (except the referendum result was what I voted for). And not because of anything I have done but because your perception of "Leave" post vote has been to say that? Should I just start blaming you for any stupid comments made by "Remain"?
You may notice (or not) that what I said to you was (again highlighting) "Should I be telling you all to shut up and move on? Or maybe we could try constructive discussions".
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 16:09 GMT Dr_N
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
Oh sorry, it must have been another codejunky in the run-up to brexit posting lies about a secret uk.gov deal for hordes of Turkish immigrants washing over the UK due to visa free travel in the Schengen Area. My bad.
I thought these were the new rules post brexit? "Shut up, you lost." and "We voted to send you back to where you came!" ?
This is the brave new brexit/trump world. Embrace it.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 16:36 GMT codejunky
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@ Dr_N
"Oh sorry, it must have been another codejunky in the run-up to brexit posting lies about a secret uk.gov deal for hordes of Turkish immigrants washing over the UK due to visa free travel in the Schengen Area. My bad."
If your reading of my comments were as accurate as on this topic then I accept you bad. I do recall the EU stating they should not be blackmailed by Turkey and commenting on that, I do seem to remember Greece threatening to give away EU visa's and point everyone to Germany but it was a while ago.
"I thought these were the new rules post brexit? "Shut up, you lost." and "We voted to send you back to where you came!" ?"
That might be your rules for brexit but then you might be one of those people the remain commenters seem to fear but attribute to vote leave. But as I have not been saying shut up you lost and instead suggesting constructive discussion why do you insist on tarring me with your view? And as far as the send you back comment I really am wondering who you are responding to because it isnt me.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 20:36 GMT H in The Hague
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
"... that 'result would be carried out immediately' by our PM ..."
It was clearly indicated that it was a consultative referendum - that was the legislation approved by Parliament. (Parliament could opted for a binding referendum but did not do so.)
The government may have said that they would immediately act on it. However, they shouldn't have said that since, as everyone who paid attention at school knows, in the UK Parliament is sovereign and cannot be brushed aside by the government where major issues are at stake.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 23:29 GMT TVU
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
"And of course when they extend this behaviour to the things you and other remain voters care about you will be livid, while over half the population will wonder why you think you opinion would matter when ours didnt."
^ Just plain wrong because the government got poor or sycophantic legal advice (or both) about taking a shortcut which was founding wanting by a panel of judges because the government was exceeding its authority - ultra vires and all that.
Furthermore, this whole Brexit vote was supposed to be about repatriating powers to a sovereign UK parliament from the EU Commission so parliamentary sovereignty should indeed therefore prevail and not ignorance, mob rule and baying for the blood of judges.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 09:55 GMT codejunky
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@ Dr_N
"The sovereign will of the commentards is continually expressed in your downvotes and yet you still keep posting."
Look above to the comments from remain voters opposing mob rule etc. You are aware that the referendum result expressed the 'The sovereign will of the' electorate and yet here you are still moaning. Should I be telling you all to shut up and move on? Or maybe we could try constructive discussions. And if people can enjoy themselves writing FUD I can enjoy myself replying.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 17:20 GMT Fruit and Nutcase
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@Doctor Syntax
Grab that beer before Farage...
Yes, it is ironic that one of the issues for the Brexit crowd was the sovereignty of (the UK) Parliament. And all the court did was to remind the Executive of that.
A discussion of the implications of the case in this week's Law in Action - BBC Radio 4
"Brexit in the High Court"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b081lkmf
Presented by Joshua Rozenberg, with:
Prof Catherine Barnard, Professor of European Law at the University of Cambridge
Prof Mark Elliott, Professor of Public Law at University of Cambridge
download
http://open.live.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/5/redir/version/2.0/mediaset/audio-nondrm-download/proto/http/vpid/p04fm4bz.mp3
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 20:33 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
"numerous post-referendum polls have shown that idealogical reasons like sovereignty and identity were more important to voters than anything else, "
It would be interesting to know how many of those people were saying it because the £ had just tanked and so saying that it was for economic reasons would have made them look like idiots.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 09:48 GMT codejunky
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
@ Voyna i Mor
"It would be interesting to know how many of those people were saying it because the £ had just tanked and so saying that it was for economic reasons would have made them look like idiots."
Well that wouldnt work. They would actually look reasonably bright. Even the remain campaign pointed out the benefits of leaving but they put a negative spin on it. Since the recession the gov and BoE have been trying to get inflation back to target, raise the base rate and reduce house prices which is why Carney and Osborne were given odd looks as they complained about these things. Brexit would also boost exports and give us access to cheaper imports.
Economically the EU has the single market. But that must be balanced with their dangerous currency, cartel tariffs and political intrusions.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:07 GMT IsJustabloke
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
"So you claim to speak for them all?"
Not really any different from you characterizing anyone who voted Leave as a "Bigoted, racist , xenophobe"
I think the only thing that can be said with any certainty is that there are fuckwits on both sides of the "debate" *
*I use this word very loosely
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 21:13 GMT smartypants
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
Let's be clear here, when it comes to racists and xenophobes, Mr. Brexiter.
I've seen nobody claim all brexit voters were racists and xenophobes. But xenophobia and racism were significant enough motivators that the *leave campaign* chose to spend its money courting their vote with pictures of hoardes of largely brown immigrants, or the threat of them, splattered right across the country. These were the core messages - that and the now famous lie about the NHS funding.
So there is nothing glorious about the historical brexit vote. It was won plain and simple by preying on people's fears and views about foreigners. Both their coming here (taking our jobs etc.), and our paying money to foreigners with our net EU funding. Just a million such people voting the other way would have meant the leave campaign lost, but who believes that such a low number of people voted brexit because of that? The leave campaign didn't... that's why the core messages were what they were.
This is of course a problem for us all. Pandora's box has been opened. What you might wish as a sensible settlement as a 'non xenophobic' brexiter is, I'm afraid, going to be drowned out by the brexit voters wanting to build a wall around the island. Whatever the hell is behind your vote (still don't know - hard to get any sense out of any of you here or anywhere) do you really think it was worth unleashing this hatred to get what *you* want? At least Boris had an excuse - a craven desire for power. What's yours?
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 18:57 GMT John Crisp
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
"....don't you think to claim that 17.4 million people could all vote the same way for the same reason and this being completely antithetical to the other 17 million"
It's more than antiethical.
17.4 million voted to Leave. 29 million either voted for the status quo, or didn't vote at all.
Contrary to Mrs Mays recent statement during her reality check trip to India that "the majority of the British public voted to Leave"
No, they didn't.
Who said something like "Never hold a referendum on maintaining the status quo. Only have one if you want to change something" ?
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:28 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: This is such a ridiculously minor point about Brexit.
Minor to you, if you speak no other language (like most Brexiters) and have no aspirations to work in the forefront of your field (a word I use advisedly, as that's exactly where you might end up, picking the spuds the EU nationals used to before you booted them out).
But if you are an educated, go-getting dynamic individual, who will probably have to travel internationally in order to advance your business. Then suddenly finding yourself - through no fault of your own - second choice in application after application, is far from minor.
So that's any field of research. Medicine. Engineering. Finance. Manufacturing.
And just to complete the circle, no international company is going to sink a cent into the UK if there's any bar on crossing the channel. Something I can guarantee has not been lost on the French. If Brexit happens you can bet your bottom dollar that a US citizen travelling from the UK will sail past the "etrangers" queue, as control-toting Brexiters look up from their tablets ever 10 minutes as the queue advances one person forward.
Before 23rd June, there were some interesting points coming from the Leave camp - you had to look hard for them, but they were there.
Now Leave have "won", all I see is the drivel posted above. Which has a distinct whiff of sour grapes. Funny in a *winning* side .....
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:57 GMT Dr_N
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
"And regardless of their fate, a policy is now running of making it a definite bonus point in two equally-suitable candidates."
Which is probably why The Farage was skulking around the German embassy a little while back:
Making sure his offspawn have the EU citizenship that he had a hand in removing from every other UK citizen.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:40 GMT maffski
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
I can't help but feel your argument is somewhat weakened by it's source being a UK citizen working in the US - a country to which they have no automatic right to residence or employment.
Was it a H1-B visa he needed? My understanding is you have to have a job lined up and be sponsored by your employer before you can set foot in the country.
I happen to like the idea of free movement and employment, but lets not pretend immigration control suddenly means no immigration. If there are jobs that need doing, they will be done.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Was it a H1-B visa he needed?
No, his employer is exempt.
And if you know your visas, you'll twig why this is a bigger deal than some people here think it may be. Theresa May is going to have to find an awful lot of money to pay an awful lot of people if she wants to be able to pretend Brexit is better.
And you know where that money is going to come from.
I happen to like the idea of free movement and employment, but lets not pretend immigration control suddenly means no immigration. If there are jobs that need doing, they will be done.
of course, plus ca change and all that. Just whether they need to be done by a pure-UK citizen is now a question that needs to be asked which didn't exist pre-23rd June. And if there is any additional effort in employing a pure UK citizen (say discovering they need a visa and a work permit to be able to travel to Paris, Munich, Berlin, Turin, Brussels) then maybe an English speaking EU national will do just as well.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 17:09 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Was it a H1-B visa he needed?
from here
Here’s a sample list of H-1B Cap exempt employers:
University Of Utah
Case Western Reserve University
Indiana University
Oak Ridge Associated Universities
Purdue University
Temple University–a Commonwealth University
Texas A&m University
The Curators Of The University Of Missouri
The Pennsylvania State University
The University Of Georgia
The University Of Houston
The University Of Southern California
Trustees Of Boston University
University Of California, Berkeley
University Of California, San Diego
University Of Illinois
University Of Maryland Baltimore
University Of Miami-miller School Of Medicine
University Of North Carolina At Chapel Hill
University Of Rochester
Vanderbilt University
Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University
so any Brit looking to work in science or on science projects should really consider getting another EU passport.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:54 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: I can't help but feel this is the calm before the (shit) storm.
And regardless of their fate, a policy is now running of making it a definite bonus point in two equally-suitable candidates.
My wife was asked the same question during an interview recently. So this is definitely not anecdotal evidence.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 13:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
don't for get the Chocolate 'repackaging'
The New toblerone bar got a decent amount of haranging on Radio 5 today.
All the nice but bad food is being reduced in package size as well as the price going up.
The Choco makers are blaming it on the price of Sugar. As most of them use Beet sugar that is grown in the UK and has not risen in price (as my cousin from Wisbeech and he will say that the price he gets has gone down) they are clearly pulling a fast one.
Those of you who voted out last June ignored all the warnings or to quote a Trumpism, 'you were not intelligent enough to understand it'.
Now we have to live with the effects of the vote. I've just been put on short time (2 days a week from 5). all due to BREXIT. We all saw it coming and the whole company voted to stay in. Now we are paying for it.
Posting AC because this is one of the days I'm supposed to be working. I predict that I'll be signing on by Crimble.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:04 GMT 45RPM
Re: don't for get the Chocolate 'repackaging'
Although, from my point of view, perhaps smaller snack packs is an advantage - for the country's waistline if nothing else. I don't want a 60g bag of crisps - 25g, as used to be the standard size, is quite sufficient for me to snack on. Similarly, on the rare occasions that I have a fizzy pop, 330ml is quite sufficient - I don't need a 500ml 'fat boy' bottle. It seems to me that the smaller sizes are getting rarer and harder to get hold of.
Incidentally, is it just me or do the small mars bars taste better than the big ones?
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 14:18 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: don't for get the Chocolate 'repackaging'
Manufacturers pulling a fast one in order to make a quick profit? Unheard of.
Of course, most of the commodities that the food "processing" (denaturing might a better term) uses are traded globally and often in dollars or euros. AFAIK the sugar beet crop in Germany this year is shit so that sugar might get more expensive next. Of course, by then sugar from the UK might be cheaper for the Germans who would then buy it and force up prices in the UK. Cocoa on the other hand has had several poor years and is already subject to speculation.
Sorry, to hear you're on short time. Let's hope you've still got a job at Christmas.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:46 GMT Infernoz
Re: don't for get the Chocolate 'repackaging'
I don't give a frack about junk food from an even worse junk drink retailer and real Chocolate will probably be unaffected because it has far less unhealthy junk in it like sugar, over processed milk, and no heat poisoned other vegetable oils and synthetic junk.
Too big government eventually collapses the whole economy and the EU/Euro straight jacket is already crushing Europe e.g. Greece was already made 3rd world by their Ponzi government and criminal, Ponzi fraudster, central banksters!
No, you miss the point, we will only see downside until we complete Brexit, then things will get a lot better because we can start to slash away the business/trade choking weeds of EU legislation disguised as UK legislation, and have much freer and cheaper trade with non-EU countries. We can also slash all the very costly benefits and counter culture immigration (including from the Middle East and Africa) too, which is impossible while in the culturally suicidal and effectively bankrupt EU!
I will soon lose my job, not because of Brexit, but because of gross corporate management/sales incompetence and executive greed, and good riddance to them! I have skills, resources and savings (including devaluation proof Bullion) now so can be much more careful about my future employment.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:48 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: don't for get the Chocolate 'repackaging'
"No, you miss the point, we will only see downside until we complete Brexit, then things will get a lot better because we can start to slash away the business/trade choking weeds of EU legislation disguised as UK legislation, and have much freer and cheaper trade with non-EU countries."
If you're interested I have a load of pixie dust to sell. It's in a cart pulled by a Unicorn you can also buy if you like.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 20:18 GMT H in The Hague
Re: don't for get the Chocolate 'repackaging'
"… the business/trade choking weeds of EU legislation disguised as UK legislation,"
That's something that's often mentioned but I'm never terribly sure what it relates to. Could you give some specific examples of such legislation?
".. and have much freer and cheaper trade with non-EU countries."
So what tariffs, etc. does the EU impose which impede external trade? And why would they be lower outside the EU? Again, specific examples please.
Sorry to hear you've lost your job - good luck.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 15:55 GMT Infernoz
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
No, the smart ones will just think you are a dickhead because they not confused at all.
It is all about reclaiming /our own/ sovereignty so that we can stop & undo the damage caused by the undemocratic and fraudulent EU's legislation after it was stolen from us under false pretences and handed to criminals in Brussels.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:07 GMT Voland's right hand
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
from us under false pretences and handed to criminals in Brussels.
You really need to share what you are smoking.
Every piece of Eu legislation is something Britain either at commissioner level or at Eu parliament level had to agree with. The latter is elected directly by the entire Eu including the British representatives. The former is selected by the UK government which is supposedly democratically elected.
Up to Lisbon, there was no way to overrule a veto and Britain used it the threat of it quite extensively to get exactly what it wants. After Lisbon, veto could be overruled, but AFAIK there is not a single case where British veto was overruled.
In either case, before a piece of Eu legislation can become a part of the UK statute book it also needs to become a UK law and be voted by UK parliament.
So, frankly, you are repeating Farage and BNP drivel without a single shred of evidence to it.
In fact, there is an even better way to confuse a blonde (sorry, Brexiter): ask him to quote exactly one piece of undemocratic and fraudulent Eu legislation which has gone on the British statute book _WITHOUT_ British agreement in the commission (which means government) and Eu parliament (directly elected) and UK parliament (to vote in the actual law).
Your moronic rant is one more example of the fact that 99% of the Brexiters do not know how the legal system in UK works and how the legal system in UK interacts with the EU.
In fact, if you are complaining against Eu law you should start with blaming Farage and the other nuts as they have been part of UK Eu representation for ages and voting for all those "undemocratic" laws.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 20:23 GMT H in The Hague
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
"... do not know how the legal system in UK works and how the legal system in UK interacts with the EU."
That's also the impression I get and in a way I find that much more depressing than the actual outcome of the referendum. What's even scarier is that the same seems to be happening in many other countries.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:19 GMT hmv
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
I might have thought you had a point - not a point I'd agree with - but a point, at least until you went off the deep end into nut-job territory with all that garbage about criminal, fraudulent and undemocratic EU. Grow up and get real.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 21:23 GMT smartypants
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
"It is all about reclaiming /our own/ sovereignty so that we can stop & undo the damage caused by the undemocratic and fraudulent EU's legislation"
Funny why the leave campaign chose to feature snaking hoardes of brown migrants on their posters instead'...
Are you sure it was about bananas and clean beach rules?
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 23:34 GMT TVU
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
"It is all about reclaiming /our own/ sovereignty so that we can stop & undo the damage caused by the undemocratic and fraudulent EU's legislation after it was stolen from us under false pretences and handed to criminals in Brussels."
But that is ultimately no good because splendid economic isolation will only destroy this country's economy, prospects, currency and jobs. People are now being put on short time or are being thrown out of work entirely as a direct result of the sheer economic illiteracy of the Brexit vote.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:21 GMT maffski
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
A fine wheeze sir. However, as the two apocryphal Brexiters are in front of you, perhaps you may find greater value in asking them each to explain what Brexit means to them?
The vote was to leave the institution - it wasn't to define a given route afterwards - that is what general elections are for. I'd like to see unilateral free trade, lower taxes and an end to subsidies. Others may desire protection of British industries and tighter immigration controls, something they are perfectly entitled to campaign and vote for.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:37 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
The vote was to leave the institution - it wasn't to define a given route afterwards - that is what general elections are for
Oh great. So a bit like: "more money for everyone" was approved and we'll worry about paying for it all later.
A referendum that expects action but wasn't itself about policy is worse than useless and one of the reasons we have so few of them.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:59 GMT 45RPM
Re: You know the joke meme about how do you confuse a blonde ?
"I'd like to see unilateral free trade, lower taxes and an end to subsidies."
I'd like to be able to get fit by eating pies and drinking beer. Oh, and since we're talking about unrealistic daydreams, I'd like a pet dragon called Ralph too.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 20:56 GMT Doctor Syntax
Re: ...pies and beer
"The bad news is both of our desires are currently impossible.
Yours by physics, mine by EU regulation."
Your list was:
unilateral free trade In which direction? Inward trade? If so, yes a Brexited Britain could do that. So everyone can sell into the UK but we have to face tariff barriers everywhere. Why would we want to do that? Or outward trade? That depends on other countries lowering their tariff barriers while we raise ours. Why would they want to do that?
lower taxes Not going to happen post-Brexit. Your taxes are going to increase to pay all those subsidies to Nissan etc. to make up for not being subject to EU regulation inside the customs union.
an end to subsidies The EU is very much against those. Ask Ireland and Apple. But as per my point above, we're likely to be very keen on
bribingsubsidising foreign manufacturers who set up here to be inside the EU and have found we've moved them out.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 16:13 GMT Anonymous Coward
"It is all about reclaiming /our own/ sovereignty [...]"
So why are so many supporters of Leave trying to stop our sovereign Parliament from taking the final decision on an advisory referendum? That has been our constitutional position for several centuries. The Prime Minister is not a surrogate monarch - except is some very narrowly defined situations.
Give the Prime Minister the right to rule by decree and you can end up with a dictatorship. They only get that power if a mob try to overthrow the rule of British law - as Farage et al appear to be threatening. A lot of British people died defending our system of representative democracy against monarchs and dictators who ruled by decree.
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Tuesday 8th November 2016 21:30 GMT smartypants
Maybe time to invest in...
...Feelings of community with our neighbours and fellow humans, rather than seeing them as our enemy to be shut out to 'get our country back'.
I realise now in writing that, that charity and love extends even to members of my own family who I discover have set fire to our home. This is quite hard to do but I guess it has to be done. Just don't ask me to forgive you for the hatred you've unleashed in your cause. Let's just hope it doesn't drag us all into the gutter.
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Wednesday 9th November 2016 13:13 GMT PeterGriffin
What does the dollar have to do with it? Most companies are subsidiaries of a European parent and the parent company orders, imports and books the sale of the goods. Therefore the price rise, to maintain / (more likely) extend their profit margin, would be the difference in the value of the Euro to Pound target than USD to GBP?
Biting the hand that feeds IT
