Microsoft keeps schtum as more battery woes hit Surface sufferers Microsoft loyalists are up in arms over yet more battery grief with the Surface Pro 3 and that Redmond is, we're told, breaking promises on repair costs. These aren't the battery blunder reported in July, in which faulty software had a habit of draining batteries of juice. Microsoft fixed that issue with a software update in …
I bought loads of SP3 tablets and they have, as a rule, been fairly robust. The problem I have is that we still don't really know what they are good for. So although we have quite a few out in circulation, I still have a load of them sitting, brand new in their boxes. I am hoping they will turn into collector's items and regain some of the money I lost.
Nothing wrong with having faults with hardware, its how a Company deals with those faults, is key (and how the product was marketed). From the top down, this has all been done badly.
Here, Microsoft are trying to weasel their way out of fixing a hardware battery issue, by masking the problem with software. It hasn't worked, but in the same breath, buyers should have realised what they are buying.
The inherent problem with the Surface Pro i5/i7, its a very high power drain/charge device. It stresses li-ion batteries more, than say an iPad. Unlike a bog standard laptop, the SP3(and SP4) is designed to be untethered most of its life. These li-ion batteries just can't cope with these high drain/charge cycles over time.
When buying a Surface Pro, know what you are buying, a limited life (3-4yrs max) "sealed device", end of.
If you can't accept that, buy something with a replaceable battery, but don't moan when it dies near the end its limited life and be aware of the warranty period, at time of purchase.
I have a Surface Pro 4 and I love this thing, it's what i am currently writing on and like of the other El-Reggers above i must admit to this being a great piece of kit...
Should we knock down Samsung for producing shit material just because the Note 7 was bad ( What about all their other stuff)
Should we knock down Apple for producing shit material just because you were holding it wrong.
Should we knock down Dell for producing anything ( almost ;-).
Should we knock down Skoda because their first véhicules were shit....
Ans as to the comment about not buying stuff which you can't replace the battery in, ... Non replaceable batteries have become the defacto standard for many of the "top tier" manufactures, whether we like it or not, that's called consumerism and we all play a part...
>Nothing wrong with having faults with hardware.
Eh? A bit late if it's a diving regulator, seatbelt, rocket component, ABS brakes, pharmaceuticals - the list goes on.
>its how a Company deals with those faults
Not much use if the hardware fault caused your death, who are you going to complain to, St Peter ?
I do miss the old gravestone icon, most handy.
In that case, bluntly, it's how many deaths you prevent that matters and why there are strict safety standards, where it matters and why those standards don't apply to everything, otherwise you'd be so locked down/walking in treacle, in terms of rules/regs you'd never get out of bed.
>In that case, bluntly, it's how many deaths you prevent that matters and why there are strict safety standards, where it matters and why those standards don't apply to everything, otherwise you'd be so locked down/walking in treacle, in terms of rules/regs you'd never get out of bed.
Not really it's a case of what the bean counters have worked out what it costs to prevent vs what it costs in litigation. The classic case being the Ford Pinto:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Cost-benefit_analysis.2C_the_Pinto_Memo
And of course the most recent example with software attempting to overcome hardware shortfalls, the VW diesel scandal.
If companies think they can get away with it they'll give it a damn good try, profits first customer second.
The Able pharmaceuticals scandal:
http://www.in-pharmatechnologist.com/Processing/FDA-debars-four-QC-officials-over-Able-Labs-recall-scandal.
Or the Therac-25 debacle, a textbook example of poor code QC/QA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25
Yes people make mistakes we are only human but don't let corporations make mistakes by deliberate and conscious financial decisions that we may have to pay with our lives before they are forced to make the changes after the fact. When they are caught out it's some poor patsy having to take the fall while the real villains get away with it.
How many shortcuts are taken with your software for the sake of convenience and cost ?
"...Eh? A bit late if it's a diving regulator..."
Interesting you mention that - about a decade ago and before they were bought out by a much larger company, Uwatec built some of the early dive computers. One particular model had massive issues with the way it [in reality didn't) calculate decompression times properly.
It was apparently known to have been a factor in a number of deaths and injuries. And their apparent response at the time, because they were selling up, was...sit on it and pretend there was no issue.
I don't know what actually came of it all in the end.
@ tonyJ
reason I mention it as scuba is my hobby. There was a lot of issues with re-breathers and questions over the software and oxygen sensors, I'll stick to good old tanks.
Thanks for the support as a scuba diver my life depends on perfectly working hardware and software and it pisses me off when people come along with a blasé comment.
I had some downvotes, well they wouldn't be downvoting if they had a 100% oxygen hit at 70 meters thanks to shittily developed hardware and software, they'd be fucking dead. I personally know someone who had died in a rebreather accident.
@Doc Ock...I am a rebreather diver. JJ unit. The only fault I've had so far, funnily enough, was a stuck O2 solenoid. No drama though - turn off the O2 and drive it manually by feathering it. I could've bailed out. I chose the former and we called the dive and it ended well.
To be fair the only way you can get a 100% O2 hit is if you swap to the wrong cylinders manually. Not impossible at those depths given you're into hypoxic territory.
Your point is a good one though - I - like I assume you - see a lot of things on the market for divers and think wtf...?
There was a lot of issues with re-breathers and questions over the software and oxygen sensors
There was quite a lot of uninformed comment. We rebreather divers are given access to information from the various accident enquiries - that's why we don't worry about such things. The units are perfectly safe if you use them according to your training; They also appear to be extremely safe if you use them way outside your training and manufacturer advice - and that is why so many people have done exactly that. A very few have been caught out by that; it would be wrong to blame the unit for their accidents.
as a scuba diver my life depends on perfectly working hardware and software
Well it bloody well shouldn't. As a diver, you should be aware of the failure modes of your equipment and have plans to deal with them. Any single failure should be nothing more than an inconvenience. A dual failure is where you start to have problems. Planning is essential.
The phrase we used to use was "if you're going to have an accident, make sure it's in the pub". The GASCo boys didn't seem to think that was appropriate the other evening, though.
they wouldn't be downvoting if they had a 100% oxygen hit at 70 meters thanks to shittily developed hardware and software, they'd be fucking dead
Runaway O2 is one of the eventualities you are trained for. It's a trivial fix. Anyone getting injured by that has failed to maintain his skills to the appropriate level - that's complacency, and that kills.
I personally know someone who had died in a rebreather accident.
As have I. And although I am loath to speak ill of the dead, I do not blame the equipment for the negligence of its operators.
Vic.
Yeah but...no but...yeah but... The HARDWARE as such is OK. Haven't had any problems. I quite like the thing. I just very rarely use it. I use my desk PC. Or a laptop. Or my phone. One day, I am sure I will find some kind of use it is brilliant for, but now every time I pick it up, I just get frustrated after 10 minutes switch to something else. I WANT to like it. But it seems to be a solution to a problem nobody had. I have the flappy keyboard for it. Doesn't help much.
"Bought Microsoft hardware? Not sorry for you, you got all you deserved."
In my experience Microsoft tends to make* really good hardware (often reasonably priced also), it's their software that tends to suck dead dogs sweat stained dangly bits.
*Though the argument can be made that what they really do is brand other makers hardware.
I have a certain amount of sympathy with manufacturers over this sort of thing. Social media means that it's very easy for a small problem to look big. How many Surface batteries have this problem compared to the number of actual Surfaces out there? That's what we really want to know. Even a rough estimate would be helpful. Otherwise, it's difficult to assess the situation properly.
Microsoft's failure to respond to people is another matter, and is inexcusable.
I've had two Macbooks which both had such a severe battery problem that they persuaded me never to buy Apple again -- especially since Apple insisted to me that the fault was a deliberately designed feature, not a bug, and demonstrated how superior their batteries are. I have a Surface Pro 3 and love it to bits, and the battery's absolutely fine. Is that because I'm part of the lucky minority who got decent batteries or is my experience the norm? No idea. It'd be nice to know.
Seeing the Dell XPS advert last night at least gives you an alternative
but they are still banging on about
'I couldn't do that on my mac'.
I wonder just how many Surface Pro users were Macbook users and how they are getting on with their 'so superior' devices.
Then we will see what MS is coming up with next for the SP4 is a few days followed by the new Macs two daya later.
Who will win the battle of the holidays?
I went from a Mac Book Air to a Surface Pro 3 because (ironically) the battery was near EOL in my Air. After trying to love the Surface I got an aftermarket battery replacement for my Mac and it's back as my primary machine (with Windows in Fusion)
The Surface was interesting, but too much of a compromise (bollocks to it being "lappable" and it was almost unusable on a non-Business aircraft seat) and despite being significantly improved in many areas Windows 10 is still an inconsistent mess - IMO these days Office is better on OSX!
Would I get another Surface? Probably not (unless they fix that huge gap with the SurfaceBook ... even then not sure I'd use the tablet much). Maybe a Dell XPS 13? Who knows... Either way hopefully the battery in my Mac should tide me over for a couple of years
...as i don't own one.
But many of those issues look like an ancient problem with a fix. Search for "plugged in, not charging."
Most common fix:
1. Disconnect the A/C power supply.
2. Shut down the computer.
3. Remove the battery
4. Connect the A/C power supply
5. Start the computer.
6. Under Battery... (here's the problem, Jeff--where is "battery?" I searched, and finally remembered it is under Control Panel, then System, then Device Driver, then Battery)
7. Click on Battery (at the top), and then right click on all entries that say Microsoft ACPI Compliant Control Method Battery, and select uninstall.
8. Shut the computer down.
9. Disconnect the A/C power supply.
10. Insert the battery.
11. Insert the A/C power supply.
12. Start the computer.
13. It should be fixed--thanks to Jeffrey Palermo! Visit his blog to read what others have experienced, and solutions for those with Samsung computers, etc.
Also removing ACPI from device manger (and sometime BIOS if an option) and letting it find it again can work.
Dan55 -You could also practice with a Terry's Chocolate Orange (now a scandalous post Brexit 157g not 175g if you hadn't noticed) to replace all those tedious battery segments in the new macbook, if you get bored.
It's about as good as Microsoft's "software fix" approach.
My I direct you to... Why the 2012 non-Retina MacBook Pro still sells. It's the one fixable, upgradable machine not held together by glue that they're still selling. Everything else got glued up, Cook doesn't know how to take little Jony's glue gun off him.
That sounds plausible, and worth a try. Thanks! I've had a few issue on Windows machines that can be fixed (if only temporarily) by uninstalling a device on Device Manager and then restarting.
It used to occur on optical drives when a damaged disc would stop Windows from using DMA mode. Uninstall, restart, drivers reinstalled on start up - job done.
I still get it on the SD card reader on my Dell, though thankfully I don't have to restart.
Interesting. I have a Win 7 laptop with a cheapo replacement battery that stopped holding a charge after less than six months. I suspect it's just a crap battery, but I think I'll give this a whirl.
Sometimes the simplest and most obvious solutions are the best. (ha!).
My 2012 Macbook Air which i have used almost every day for 4 years still has ace battery, infact the best battery experience i have ever had in a laptop. When it hits around 1000 cycles and the battery is worn out, Apple will replace it in store for £109, so no need to upgrade, just get it serviced. https://support.apple.com/en-gb/mac-notebooks/repair/service/pricing
I bought a maxxed-out SPro4 last year mainly for photo work. I was looking for a tablet to run on location but the crippled/feature-lacking tablet apps are pretty bad.
So loking for a small laptop resulted in a woeful choice. small seems to be equal to low-spec.
I never actually considered the Surface range until quite late (I tend to avoid Msoft wherever possible) but it's really very good hardware-wise. Of course it has Win10 but I can run my photo software very nicely and more, I can tether it to my camera so get a really nice preview on a really good screen. It's also light enough to run in a cradle attached to the tripod for studio work. SO much better than trying to examine shots on the camera's small screen.
After about 5 hours of shooting the battery starts to die, dropping to around 20% though so not perfect. In the studio though it's really nice.
You think Surface Pro 4 will be any different in the same timeframe from new?
You're very much mistaken. It uses the same manufacturer for the batteries (LG), has the same high drain / charge characteristics, that damage li-ion cells, over time.
The LG cell size in the SP4 is 9% smaller too (though that should indicate the processor/screen could be putting 9% less work on the li-ion cells, for the same usage/charge as the larger batteries in the SP3).
I don't think Apple Batteries are any better (very unlikely). I just think Apple have been doing clever things in the firmware from day one, so a '4-6 hour battery' should still operate at 80% capacity after 1000 cycles', i.e. how you manipulate the Petrol gauge to show the true capacitiy of the Petrol tank.
The li-ion battery probably loses its true capacity far quicker, over time - but Apple don't give you the true capacity to start with, only a figure (on day one) that is 20% higher than what it is perceived to be the true capacity to be over its working lifetime, say 2 years (their warranty period).
So the battery appears to lose capacity uniformly, over time. i.e. it's perceived to be better.
You can also extend the longevity by prevent constant charging when plugged in, where a battery is already charged to 90-100%, lots of little tricks that might not be visible to the end-user.
How about they and all the other companies stop buying Chinese made batteries? (battery recalls links)
There is the possibility of making them targets. Fling them into the air when the battery dies ("pull") and aim with a nice shotgun. The report should be quite nice. Of course the Galaxy Note 7's might have better reports still.
Yes, a joke, but I suspect many are thinking of doing it someday...
Microsoft have long had a business model, like IBM before them, and more lately Samsung of just putting all others out of business - especially Apple.
One strategy to do this is once Apple have put in a few years of research to develop a product, to quickly make an ersatz copy and try to undermine Apple and steal their advantage.
IBM also had this tactic as explained in Richard DeLamarter's Big Blue: IBM's Use and Abuse of Power.
Microsoft rushed out Windows 1, even before the Macintosh, but it was absolute rubbish, even though Windows 1 stole Macintosh code, which is why Jobs went ballistic at Gates.
Lately Samsung has been literally burnt by this tactic. Alas, capitalism says leave it up to consumers to decide. Most often consumers don't know the facts and background in making a purchasing decision, and are hardly concerned with business ethics.
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