back to article UK employers still reluctant to hire recent CompSci grads

Computer science graduates continue to top the UK's higher education unemployment rankings, according to the latest figures compiled by Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). Ten per cent of computer science graduates failed to find a job six months after graduation in the academic year 2014/2015 - a figure higher than …

  1. dajames

    A degree is not a vocational qualification

    If you take a law degree, for example, you have to undertake further study leading to Bar Finals and then pupillage to become a barrister, or to Law Society qualifications to become a solicitor. These paths to a legal career are also open to candidates with degrees in other subjects; a law degree may help to lay the groundwork for the vocational training, but it does not take its place.

    Why should we imagine that IT is any different?

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Is there anyone that still thinks that a degree makes you perfect for the job ?

      The only thing any diploma can prove is that you have the intellectual level to comprehend the difficulties in a certain area, and hopefully the baggage to understand what data you lack, how to find it and the ability to learn it.

      Once on the job, you still have to confront the real world with the academics version and learn to compose with the demands of the situation. It is an entirely new training session for some, which is why it is interesting for companies to get at them young and unbent by years of doing things the wrong way. Get 'em young and you can easily bend them to doing things wrong your way.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        The only thing any diploma can prove ...

        "The only thing any diploma can prove is that you have the intellectual level to comprehend the difficulties in a certain area,"

        I beg to differ, maybe thats true for bullshit subjects, like Media Studies and Vine-culture, but If that was the case maybe we could dispense with the time and expense of higher education and just do a quick IQ test.

        I dont know about "Computer Science" , but i did Engineering , and it was fucking difficult. You didnt just have to "Comprehend difficulties" you had to work stuff out and solve problems . the maths alone was mind boggling . Most people would be able to even "comprehend the difficulties" never mind actually do the work.

        ...which led to drifting into I.T because people with mad skillz in an incredibly difficult subject that is central to life as we know it are inexplicably not lauded as heros and paid bags of gold, that goes to the fucking money merchants in london who contribute nothing and just swirl all the money around in a big trough whilst skimming off as much as they can carry.

        still , you try not to be bitter about it ...

        1. BenR

          Re: The only thing any diploma can prove ...

          Ditto.

          I love this, by the way:

          I dont know about "Computer Science" , but i did Engineering , and it was fucking difficult. You didnt just have to "Comprehend difficulties" you had to work stuff out and solve problems . the maths alone was mind boggling . Most people would be able to even "comprehend the difficulties" never mind actually do the work.

          ...which led to drifting into I.T because people with mad skillz in an incredibly difficult subject that is central to life as we know it are inexplicably not lauded as heros and paid bags of gold, that goes to the fucking money merchants in london who contribute nothing and just swirl all the money around in a big trough whilst skimming off as much as they can carry.

          still , you try not to be bitter about it ...

          This absolutely sums it up for me. And I *STILL* work in engineering! It's not like I don't make a decent living, but when I compare it to law types, or accounting types, or MBA types, or project management types, it do somewhat start to fume a little.

          The only thing I'd say / gently correct about your post is that a lot of the problems in engineering are fairly common-sense, but the actual understanding and knowledge of how to correctly deal with them can be a bit intense. The academic part of it - in this particular case at least - is only designed to give you the background knowledge to understand the principles, so you stand a chance of being able to suss out a more complicated problem elsewhere. Only very rarely does a scheme come along that exactly maps to something they taught you at uni - most of the times its an interacting combination of about 4 or 5 first-principles, with an added dash of something totally off-the-wall.

          1. JulieM Silver badge
            Joke

            You think engineers have it bad?

            Q. What do you call someone who knows at least as much as an engineer, works at least as hard as an engineer and gets paid half as much as an engineer?

            A. A technician .....

        2. PatientOne

          Re: The only thing any diploma can prove ...

          "I dont know about "Computer Science" , but i did Engineering , and it was fucking difficult."

          I went from Engineering (Civils) into Computer Science. Engineering wasn't too bad, and there was quite a bit that was shared between the two (mostly project management stuff, but research and the dread maths came into it, too. Plus having a logical, methodical approach helped). So I'd put them on a par. Also worked in both fields, and sometimes I miss working outdoors, and other times I'm real glad I'm sat in an office :p

          But mad skills are a boon. Trouble shooting is what I really love, even if it drives me up the wall at times. Shame, as you say, there isn't as much recognition or financial reward in it...

          Also not bitter. Honest.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The only thing any diploma can prove ...

          >I don't know about "Computer Science" , but i did Engineering , and it was fucking difficult.

          You probably did it in an era when it wasn't so easy to pay for someone else to write your outlines, do your lit reviews or even knock out full papers via one of the {very} many sites offering bespoke essay writing services. Similarly, you probably studied in an era when students were supplicants not litigious consumers. A good degree ticks a box and gets you through the door, but no-one with sense trusts them discretely any more.

          ...and you're probably missing out on a lucrative and enjoyable side-line.

        4. Aitor 1

          Re: The only thing any diploma can prove ...

          The London people have done all they could to destroy IT, as it was a threat to them. Bean counters and oxbridge ppl with the correct surnames have won.

        5. gotes

          Re: The only thing any diploma can prove ...

          Some people make it their life's work to earn more money. I'm quite happy to be paid a modest amount, live comfortably and go to work every day doing something I enjoy doing.

          For the record, I dropped out of an electronic engineering degree in my final year. I was fine with the technical side of things but utterly hopeless at project management. I realised I was better at doing things than just writing about doing things, and I really didn't give a shit about marketing. Massive waste of my time and money. I often recommend vocational courses or apprenticeships to young people.

          I'm not saying there isn't a place for academics, it's just that the most appropriate place seems to be universities.

        6. Steve 114
          Headmaster

          Re: The only thing any diploma can prove ...

          Why do 'young people nowadays' not know the difference between "would" and "wouldn't"? Well, I wouldn't employ one who didn't.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A degree is not a vocational qualification

      Was talking to someone reasonably high up in one of the Russell Group Universities recently and he was saying there's a real problem with law degrees as since the restrictions on number of students that Universities can accept have been removed thne Universities are wanting to open up more courses to increase their income but at same time make sure the courses are cheap to run ... and he singled out Law since it was very cheap to run (no expensive labs to run like engineering or science) and students associated it with good job prospects - problem he said was that with the increase in law courses there were going to be far more law graduates than there were going to be jobs for them to move on to.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: A degree is not a vocational qualification

        "problem he said was that with the increase in law courses there were going to be far more law graduates than there were going to be jobs for them to move on to."

        I believe this has long been a problem in the US, hence the problems with frivolous lawsuits trying for absurd damages, trolls like Prenda etc. as too many lawyers chase too few real cases.

        A consequence of leaving the EU could be a legal system as dysfunctional as that in the US.

    3. TheVogon

      Re: A degree is not a vocational qualification

      This probably has more to do with the general lack of social skills (and often the appearance!) of anyone that would want to do a degree in Computer Science...

      1. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge
        Facepalm

        he singled out Law

        just what we need , more f******* Lawyers

  2. tiggity Silver badge

    skills shortages

    Ignoring issues f degree not being equivalent to on the job experience so getting the first IT job always the hardest thing for a new grad..

    Sick of hearing "on going skills shortages" - maybe because the job offers "require" a huge lists of skills that either most applicants would not have "in depth" so would have to blag interviews based on limited exposure to several of the key areas requested, or if they do have the skills required "in depth" they look at the low salary on offer & think someone is taking the **** here.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: skills shortages

      You're not far wrong there.

      Over the past few years I have seen job requirements grow out of proportion not only to what is possible to know but to a degree where it actually starts to deter anyone from applying. The technologies are sometimes so far apart that I would say it would be hard for anyone to be able to fulfil the job role. You can't be an expert in *everything*.

      Also the continuous push by larger companies to outsource everything they can doesn't really leave much left to entice new talent to the skill pool (certainly not in the UK anyway).

      1. Ryan.T.Student

        Re: skills shortages

        I would agree that the skills list in job ads these days is getting fairly ludicrous. I remember the days when knowing your way around PHP, MySQL, HTML, CSS and Javascript was sufficient and you could earn decent money doing that. Not now. I think the barriers to entry for newbies is much higher than it was, given that I got into the business back in 2000 off the back of a few little web projects and a failed HND in computing. [note that I'm now doing somewhat cooler and more advanced stuff]

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: skills shortages

          Message to UK employers -. if you're experiencing a skills shortage in IT, then try training people up yourselves, rather than expecting foreign countries companies to train them for you, y'lazy, tightfisted wossnames!.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: skills shortages

            My company does train people up - but what's the point of a computing degree in that case? None of my team have a computing degree, but that means they are more skilled because they have the subject they have a degree in, plus the development training we have given them.

    2. Sgt_Oddball

      Re: skills shortages

      Here, here!

      The other thing is, what of us who never went to uni to get a fancy piece of paper and instead just went out and did the job? (Yes, I'm aware It represents more than a fancy piece of paper but still the point stands).

      I've always ended up doing on the job training for all of my IT roles since each one is usually a different kettle of fish to the last one.

      As for the skills required.... As a web developer, most of these jobs seem to want the perfect full stack developer who understands their exact infrastructure weirdness from the get go. And to be an expert in just about everything from networking, hardware, OS's, front/back and databasing.

      Have these people never heard of 'Jack of all trades, master of none' ?

      (not to mention that just because you use one language that you can't work your way round another.)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Happy

        Re: skills shortages

        If you understand the difference between a flat white and a latte, then you have all the qualifications you need to be a web developer.

        1. gotes

          Re: skills shortages

          If you understand the difference between a flat white and a latte, then you have all the qualifications you need to be a web developer.

          Haha.. funnily enough I went for a coffee with a web dev friend of mine. he asked for a flat white and I had to get him to explain to me what it was.

    3. Dom 3

      Re: skills shortages

      What there is a shortage of is 20-somethings with enough experience to be useful but who are unencumbered by high salary expectations, children, or the realisation that masses of unpaid overtime isn't doing yourself any favours.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Move to Germany, where they respect Engineering.

    1. Joe Harrison

      He said the F word

      Freedom of movement? Going to work in another country? I thought 52% of the population was busy trying to get that stamped out :(

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: He said the F word

        No I think you'll find that the "52%" (and quite a few of the 48%) aren't concerned about people leaving the UK ;) And since when has the EU been the only place Brits have gone for IT jobs?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: He said the F word

        I heard that bullshit again on radio 4 this morning. Apparently once we leave the EU we wont be able to employ Engineering talent from europe in our car factories.according to some dickwad. Why the fuck not? people seem to be under the delusion thaty when we leave we will adopt a border policy stricter than North Korea! nobody in , nobody out!

        The idea is we let in the people we want and not the people we dont. we does nobody fucking get that? If we want a skilled engineer from europe we give him a visa! I voted leave because not once did the "Remainers" address that point . They always just said "well , , 50% of immigration came from outside europe anyway blah blah waflle nonsense" wtf has that got to do with it? that is not answering the question. thats brushing off the question.

        Thats like answering "oh no i have 50 gatecrashers at my party" with "Thats ok - there is also 50 invited guests so its not an issue. "

        jeez i gotta calm down and get somwe work done today.

        anyway Joe may have a point - Its up to Germany if they want to let British Engineers in , but if they respect engineers , and you're any good , you'd think they would

        1. joeldillon

          Re: He said the F word

          Have you seen the visa process for non-EU nationals? It's stringent and expensive for businesses, because immigration policy isn't just driven by enlightened rational consideration of what is good for our country and its industry, it's also driven by voters who simply want 'foreigners raus' and don't give a fuck that businesses need to be able to employ skilled people.

          1. Paul 76

            Re: He said the F word

            Must've changed a lot then since I employed an economic migrant from Jamaica. Fill a few forms in, some sort of evidence you've advertised the post, visa arrived a couple of weeks later.

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: He said the F word

          "Apparently once we leave the EU we wont be able to employ Engineering talent from europe in our car factories"

          Probably because at least some the car factories here will be run down.

          1. They belong to foreign companies who are here because it provides them with a manufacturing base in the EU. Note those words: in the EU.

          2. When we leave the EU we won't be providing a manufacturing base in the EU.

          3. If we're not providing a base in the EU the owners will make their new investments in countries in the EU because that's what they want.

          4. That means that new products will be made in EU countries, not the non-EU UK.

          5. When the product lines made in the UK reach end of life there'll be no work for the factories and they'll close. Or maybe made into museums so people can see that a car factory looked like back in the olden days when we had no control over our destiny.

          1. noboard

            Re: He said the F word

            Yep, just like they all f*cked off when we didn't join the euro, oh wait. Business goes where it's cheapest and if Britain get a good deal, they'll stay. If they do go, that means there's a lot of talented people and cheap premises for non EU car manufacturers to take advantage of.

            Remember the EU is run by companies and they're not going to allow the EU to give Britain a shit deal, as that allows non eu companies the chance to come in and take over the market. Right now Korea are producing cheap dull cars that are fine if you have no love of driving. Give them a large chunk of the UK car market and it won't be long before those dull cars are quite good, cheap and moving into the European market.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: He said the F word

              "it won't be long before those dull cars are quite good, cheap and moving into the European market."

              And moving in despite being dull and having a tariff barrier against them. Yup, got that.

            2. Triggerfish

              Re: He said the F word

              If they do go, that means there's a lot of talented people and cheap premises for non EU car manufacturers to take advantage of.

              Yeah too right. The one thng thats holding Britains manufacturing back is our lack of large empty buildings for use

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: He said the F word

            6. Most of the robots are made outside of the EU.

        3. Aitor 1

          Re: He said the F word

          I moved to the uk because it is park of the european union.

          Had I wanted to be discriminated I would have decided to go to Australia, and if I wanted plenty of money with little security, the US is a better choice for me, and an easy one as my wife is a US citizen.

          So here I am, in the uk, we bought a house and the country de decided to self inflict itself a looong divorce.

          As for the article, I would rather hire somebody with experience for more money than a just minted engineer. It is way better for the business, and for me

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: He said the F word

            @Aitor 1 I'm sure you're a very nice and well balanced person in real life, but here you come across as a bit of a whiny spoilt child who can't understand that not everything goes their way all the time. You've moved once, you can move again.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: He said the F word

          "The idea is we let in the people we want and not the people we dont. we does nobody fucking get that?"

          I fucking get "that"; and what I mean by "that" is that you're a retarded fuck, if you really think it's that simple. Of course voting "Leave" in the first place is sufficient to indicate that you're a retarded fuck.

          "If we want a skilled engineer from europe we give him a visa!"

          if a shower of retarded fucks ( ie the 52% ) think they're going to avail of my services by giving me hoops to jump through to get a fucking visa, when there are 27 other countries that don't, then they can fuck right off.

      3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: He said the F word

        "Freedom of movement? Going to work in another country? I thought 52% of the population was busy trying to get that stamped out :("

        Pedantry alert. It was 52% of voters not 52% of the population. 27.8% didn't bother to vote at all.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Move to Germany, where they respect Engineering.

      I used to love going to Germany or Switzerland on business, I could almost feel my status rising as the plane landed.

  4. AMBxx Silver badge

    What about further down the line?

    These stats are just for 6 months after graduation. What about 12 months or later? Are they becoming self-employed or founding start-ups?

    More importantly, for those in 'softer' subjects, are they just less fussy about what they do?

    No opinion on this, just need more information before we jump to conclusions about employers or the quality of the degrees.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: What about further down the line?

      "founding start-ups?"

      In the UK? Are you crazy? There's way too much regulation and a dearth of VC money for something as sensible as that.

  5. Anonymous Curd

    I've spent a fair chunk of the last two years interviewing junior level candidates for engineering positions. The unfortunate fact is that most CompSci degrees in the UK are barely worthy of the name. With the exception of the top-level universities, most of the curricula seem to amount to nothing more than glorified web programming tutorials. At least your social studies grad will have churned out twenty or thirty 2,000-word essays, so you can have confidence in their communication skills.

    1. Paul 76

      Yes. I've just looked at two randomlyish chosen Computer Science courses (UEA and Nottingham Trent) and the content is not exactly impressive. I'd say it's about a year on average behind my degree (from the early 1980s) and UEA is I think one of our better universities.

      Three other factors:

      First, does this include just Computer Science, does it include things like Computer Games Programming degrees (my advice for anyone doing one of these ; don't ; learn to program generally and study maths). Does it include ICT (no-one cares much) ? Does it include "Digital Media" ? I seem often have to point out that HTML is *not* programming. It's a XML (ish) page description language. How much time is spent on waffly cr*p ?

      Secondly, I don't think I exist any more (psychologists dream ....).

      From about 1977-8 ish to the early 1990s there was a huge boom in coding skills learnt on everything from machine code trainers through to and ending with (pretty much) the Amiga and Atari ST. Lots of people bedroom coded. I don't think they do any more. Yes, a lot of it was fairly ropey BASIC ROM systems like the Spectrum and C64, but there was a huge skill base there that could be redirected into better practices fairly easily. I went to Essex on interview and the chap asked me if I wrote programs, I said I did, he said, what was the last thing you wrote , I said it was a Pascal compiler (in BASIC !) and we then had a discussion about the how I'd done it. Perhaps that's a bit extreme, but I'd be impressed if someone actually wrote something almost properly (e.g. not clicking on wizards, or semi automated drag and drop). The older machines also had the advantage that it was easier to hit the metal, you knew how things actually worked.

      Third. My son is 18 and is doing a BTEC Level 3 IT course, which the college he is attending has made as computer-science-ish as possible.

      Several things to note. Firstly my son (almost) always does the work himself (he occasionally asks me for advice), hands it in on time, and tries to do it to the best of his ability (usually very well). He doesn't seem to be that common. Many do not. They are often hand-held walked through it if they don't hand stuff in ; I've seen lecturers sit down with students on a "do this" "now do this" "now click this" basis ; this attitude is common in schools (and universities in many cases I'm told). The reason for this is staff are set pass rate targets. Or they hand in something half done and its sent back with large detail on how to make it "right".

      The actual content isn't as impressive as it looks on paper. A lot of the students (as A/C says) aren't up to it, so it becomes a fill in the blanks job. It will say something like "create a stock control system" but nothing that you or I would recognise as such.

      For example my son was given about 20-30 lines of Javascript to type in to do some HTML page validation, but there was little actual explanation of what it was - I went through it with him so he actually understood what he was doing, rather than just typed it in.

      This is known (I think) as scaffolding in education, rather than have a question like "Describe the different fate of Henry VIII wives" and having to write a 30 minute essay off the top of your head, you get a fill in the blanks, which a monkey could do. Each part is preceded by an instruction which basically tells students what to write. So what comes out is a series of identical (nearly) essays all which have the prescribed content.

      This sort of thing can be applied to Computing (it also applies to Maths) so you are actually hand walked through the production of something that gets the marks.

      The problem is that you can't actually do it independently. So A/C get someone with all the paperwork, then gives him some easy starter work and there's no guidelines, he's got to work it out for himself (they're mostly he's), and they can't.

      1. Ryan.T.Student

        You're spot on with this.

        I'm presently doing an MSc in Computer Science, and you'd think that would be a bit more hard-core. It's really not. Ok I've got 16 years time served in the industry but still, I shouldn't be finding it this easy. If the MSc is this easy how easy is a degree these days?

        You're right about the state of education in schools too. I worked as a teaching assistant at a school for a while (long story) and throughout the school there was so much blatant cheating because the school had to hit targets. Other TAs were basically doing the work for the kids when they were perfectly capable but just couldn't be arsed. Of course it didn't help that the curriculum itself bored even me to tears let alone the kids. Every lesson in every subject started "Now listen up because this might be in your exams". Schools are exam factories, doing nothing to light a fire under students, create a passion for learning or for their subject. It's shameful, it really is :(

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "I'm presently doing an MSc in Computer Science, and you'd think that would be a bit more hard-core. It's really not ... If the MSc is this easy how easy is a degree these days?"

          If it's a 1 year MSc you're doing, the BSc and MEng are harder and cover more, for as long as I can remember. The 1 year MSc's are typically a quick conversion course from another subject, do not cover the same breadth and depth as the "normal" degree, and generally not looked upon that favourably.

          1. Ryan.T.Student

            Nah it's a 2 year one if full-time, I'm doing it part time as work plus that would be a bit much so 3 years for me. Your description does however do rather a good job of covering my MSc. Lots of breadth, no depth, very little academic rigor, I mean one test I managed to get 97% on for something I'd never studied before (we had 10 topics to choose from and the best 3 scores would count so I figured I'd do the ones I hadn't studied as well, just for the crack). Trust me, I'm not thick but I'm not 97% without studying smart.

      2. ridley

        If you set up a system like our current eduucation system it is almost inevitable that we now have a system like what you descibe.

        Schools are under huge pressure to be "Outstanding" never mind "Good" but also to be higher than average in the league tables. often the SLT's jobs depend upon it. Hence they put a huge amount of pressure onto their staff to raise the grades often an the expense of an education. At my school we have halved the teaching hours in DT, Music, FT and Drama, as they are not as important to the schools Attainment 8 score.

        Teacher can only gain a pay rise by being far in excess of the national average and are at any time 6 weeks from being sacked should SLT decide that for any reason you are not "capable"*. Being capable could include not getting as high results as the next teacher who you know is "encouraging the student to get high grades by direct intervention" . Yesterday I went into a classroom only to see a student completing controlled assessment work that was taken three months ago. It was the students 4th or 5th attempt. Controlled assessments are, like exams, taken on the day and are never to be revisited. I have seen teachers doing the graph for students without the student even being there, students redoing course work the day before it is to be sent into the exam board in order for the grade that has been submitted could be justified. FFS

        *I have no problem with teacher who are in capable of being sacked. I do have a problem with people being judged incapable purely on subjective criteria and for not getting results as good as a teacher you know is cheating like mad.

        1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

          "If you set up a system like our current education system it is almost inevitable that we now have a system like what you descibe."

          IMO that's because the current system made the switch from "education" to "training" some time ago. And no, they are not the same.

        2. Paul 76

          An absolutely true story. I am, or was a teacher, and took part on a discussion board like this for teachers of ICT/Comp Sci.

          There was a few years ago an A2 (formerly A-Level) project where you had to produce something a blind auction system for houses in a new estate in Tewkesbury in Access (yes, I know !). This had been given to teachers to prepare the pupils , but without them knowing the actual task.

          (as an aside, the amount of utterly irrelevant green propaganda in the specification was amazing - about half of it. I know because I went through it and removed anything that wasn't actually part of the problem. Some of the problem was very poorly specified as well.

          This had one problem. As far as I could see none of the teachers could do it. Muggins here produced two sample solutions with different algorithms (basically it required Select the first n database rows matching this query which is non trivial in Access, and I found a way of doing it which was different), It was given out, but only to someone who could identify themselves as a teacher. It was very popular.

          I got absolutely deluged with requests for advice from pupils many of who clearly had both the complete task and the database itself - this is supposed to be done in exam conditions (a bit like old physics and chemistry practicals) , I'd left my email address in. From all over the place.

          If there was a 'distribution hub' for it in something like Student Room, I couldn't find it. Even if they had got a bootleg copy of my Access DB from somewhere they still shouldn't have got the rest of it.

      3. JLV

        Eh, eh. If you want to be more depressed, go hang out at Stackoverflow.

        I mostly hang out on Python topics.

        Now, beginning Python is really, really, simple to work with. About as far from bare metal as you can get. Syntax is clean (as long as you don't mind significant white space) and language prides itself on legibility. There are abundant learning resources and tutorial.

        A huge proportion of questions coming in are 1 paragraph university assignments. With the guy or gal clearly not having thought it through for 10 minutes before going to SO. Most often, the question text is a clear copy/paste from the assignment. SO strongly encourages people to post the code they've tried so far, along with the issues. These people almost never bother, because they didn't try anything before posting.

        This is basic stuff, not big O notation, not obscure problems, not exotic libraries, not even the weird little Python gotchas that trip beginners.

        For a programmer, they are 5 minute problems, 30 minutes if you had to do them in a language you knew but not very well. For a beginner... more time, but you have to learn those concepts before you do anything else.

        Not only is this cheating, it is cheating on stuff that could very easily be done on your own. If you can't do them, you'll never be able to move on.

        p.s. you know, maybe there is a place for a utility that compares originating IPs of low ranked questions with universities ;-)

        1. Paul 76

          A few years ago I designed a monochrome PAL video display using an old DRAM I liberated from an ancient PC card. The idea was that it was driven by a microcontroller that fed the 8 address lines, CAS and RAS, data in and Write. Using CAS/RAS reduced the address wiring, and the refreshing was done as the display was generated from DataOut with another couple of pin generating Sync. It was quite neat, just an experiment, I got about 100x100 pixel resolution out of it. I stuck it on AVRfreaks or something.

          I had an email from this guy who wanted to use it as his final year project for some US University, and he wanted me to convert it to NTSC *and* also, would I very kindly design a printed circuit board for it for him.....

          1. Roo
            Windows

            "I had an email from this guy who wanted to use it as his final year project for some US University, and he wanted me to convert it to NTSC *and* also, would I very kindly design a printed circuit board for it for him....."

            I trust that you replied with your daily rate and NDA agreement for him to sign. :)

    2. Cab

      Interesting...

      Have you been interviewing CS grads or grads that have CS sounding titles ? I used to be a CS lecturer and there are a huge number of CS related degrees out there with hugely different curriculum even at the same university, CS isn't Software Engineering, which isn't Network and Communications which isn't Computing, which isn't Intelligent Systems etc. One of the frustrations we used to have (one of the many) was it's sometimes really hard to know what the hell industry wants from a new graduate. They need to have solid fundamentals (Ok so we'll teach them C, Data Structures, Algorithm Design etc.) but they need to be up to speed on industry standards (Ok so Java / C# etc.) and they need to know about the full software lifecycle (Software design, testing, UML, agile etc), and the new shiny thing (cloud, IoT, functional, containers etc) and of course the course needs to be accredited (big database component, study skills, personal development, ethics) and it's academic so they need that (research methods etc). Look at that it's a crap degree because they haven't even learnt basic comms, web development etc. What kind of University sends out graduates in 2016 without knowing Android/IOS/Linux/Oracle/Windows 10/Azure/AWS/Whatever the hell your company thinks is important but can't be arsed to pay for training in.

      As others have said the point of a degree to is give the students some basic knowledge in an area and instruct them on how to learn and keep learning, but the IT field is so big now employers really need to look at what students have actually done not simply look at a CS sounding course and think it's the same thing they did 15 years ago. If you want coders look at Software Engineering not Computing, ask for transcripts.

      To answer another question, CS grads are typically employed by the 12 month mark but government stats insist on checking after 6 months (another frustration).

      1. Tom Wood

        Re: Interesting...

        As someone who does interview both graduates and more experienced developers (and a comp sci grad myself), in an embedded software business, I'd say I most value someone who has learned the fundamentals of CS (algorithms, complexity, computer architecture, logic) and some software engineering (design, testing, OO, design patterns) and can evidence applying both through their project work. The "Android/IOS/Linux/Oracle/Windows 10/Azure/AWS" stuff I really don't care about, provided their project work shows they have applied some knowledge in some domain areas and can pick it up quickly. (Though understanding the basics of the Linux/POSIX style command line is a big plus).

        One reason why I'm always wary of "experienced" programmers who were self-taught and came from a hardware or physics background for instance is that they can bash out code based on tutorials they've learned etc, but they don't really understand basics like what a pointer is or what the difference is between a list and a vector, for example. Which can lead to writing buggy software, or being unable to debug such issues in other people's code...

        1. Cab

          Re: Interesting...

          That actually sounds more like the stuff I do now which is Electronic and Robotic Engineering, students there learn much more of the lower level stuff than most of the CS degrees cover these days.

        2. Alan Johnson

          Re: Interesting...

          "One reason why I'm always wary of "experienced" programmers who were self-taught and came from a hardware or physics background for instance is that they can bash out code based on tutorials they've learned etc, but they don't really understand basics like what a pointer is"

          My experience is the opposite that most CS graduates have no idea about what a pointer is, how a stack is used to pass parameters and allocate space for local variables and cannot function in an environment where memory and resources are not (mostly) automatically managed. A good way to test this is to give some example code that returns a pointer to a local variable and ask them to describe what can happen if you start to use that pointer. Most do not evn think it is a problem let alone give any sort of coherent description of why and what can happen. They can, to be fair, program badly in a scripting language and create web page but are incapable of real programming without extensive remedial education. Electronics and physics graduates however seem much stronger and quicker learners.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Interesting...

            "My experience is the opposite that most CS graduates have no idea about what a pointer is, how a stack is used to pass parameters and allocate space for local variables..."

            Sigh ... admittedly I graduated ~10 years ago from a "top-5" CS department, but what you are describing was semester 1 year 1. :(

            1. Anonymous Curd

              Re: Interesting...

              "Sigh ... admittedly I graduated ~10 years ago from a "top-5" CS department, but what you are describing was semester 1 year 1. :("

              Very much so. I'm about six years out of uni now, and year one contained a lovely joined up curriculum where you implemented a basic RISC CPU in verilog, implemented a basic JVM on top of it in assembly, then implemented basic programmes on top of it in Java to prove it worked (to an automated test spec you wrote in real java, obviously). All couched in a broader curriculum of formal logic, computer architecture, computer engineering and software engineering principles, plus the usual waste-of-time group project. And modules on databases, networking and machine learning, because, you know, real degree. (The chip on my shoulder, it is large.)

              Most of the candidates I'm looking at (all at 2.1 or First class) would maybe have done one or two of those things as a final third year project. Much more likely they'd have spent three years doing game- or web-centric projects in useless frameworks like Unity or, worse, JavaScript. It is very hard to un-teach that kind of indoctrination. That's what we're talking about when we say there's a skills gap. They're weak on the theory and very weak on the practicalities of real software engineering in a business situation.

              Now, I'm not saying everyone should learn everything I did. After all, I recognise that I did go to a top university for CS and did very well at it indeed. However when you've got chaps (and, unfortunately, it is still invariably chaps) coming out of Russell Group unis who fall down on fundamental questions like "Explain the characteristics of a B-tree and where/why it is commonly used" or asking them to draw the three-value logic truth table there are serious issues with what they're being taught.

              1. Paul 76

                Re: Interesting...

                Actually everyone should learn what you did :) Or something like it. I remember wiring up a CPU design (it was a bit like one of those 100-1 electronics things to build a CPU out of except you had to work it out yourself). No JVM, but then at that time no Java (we did Pascal, Lisp, BCPL, Prolog, COBOL, Assembler and some FP). I did a 1980s version of your course by the sound of it.

                I remember booting a PDP/8 at one point from a paper tape reader, or something like that. Such experience is actually useful.

                Why anyone uses JS is beyond me (except as a way of showing automation in web pages perhaps) because of its somewhat malleable syntax. The problem with Unity is you can do an awful lot without writing a single line of code. Examiners do not appear to know this (or that if you produce a form in VS it isn't actually that hard ......)

            2. Aitor 1

              Re: Interesting...

              Kids these days have no clue about pointers, or how the processor works, etx. This leads to extremely inefficient code.

              So we put them to do the JavaScript part, as hey, that goes on the client's budget.

              We all do it, so tje result is the frontend ppl get less pay, and this means it attracts less talent... Not a good thing.

          2. Tom Wood

            Re: Interesting...

            So maybe there really is a difference between "good" CS degrees and bad ones.

            "A good way to test this is to give some example code that returns a pointer to a local variable and ask them to describe what can happen if you start to use that pointer."

            We have a question based on exactly that problem in our interviews. Not only do I ask what happens if you use the pointer (it depends) but how they would locate such a bug in code that someone else had written.

            It's not universally true, but of those with a few years experience, it seems that those without a CS background struggle more with questions such as this than those who studied CS, but that's just the impression I've got from the candidates I've interviewed.

          3. Paul 76

            Re: Interesting...

            Oh yes. I go back to the early days of Windows (3.0 16 bit) and you just couldn't banjax around with resources and so on. If you did it died.

            I wonder how much damage garbage collection and the like does. I saw too much of the "oh, it's okay, they can buy more RAM mentality". I remember one project I was given to fix (something very much like the old Windows Program Manager) where the entire data structure that made up the display was replicated, twice.

            'Cos I'm really really old I started on a trainer board with a hex keypad. IMO this, or something like it (maybe programming PIC16C84 in assembler ?) should be mandatory. It is not fully hitting the metal but it is very close to it ; you are operating at component control level. When I went to University we did some programming linking DEC10 assembler to BCPL ; not a lot, but enough. Why do I suspect most graduates have never heard of either or done the modern equivalent ? How much of it is Windows Forms drag and drop ?

            Then you realise it actually does matter if you reserve bucket loads of memory and just chuck it away repeatedly (often).

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Interesting...

              "'Cos I'm really really old I started on a trainer board with a hex keypad"

              No, if you were really old you'd have started with punched cards.

      2. Roo
        Windows

        Re: Interesting...

        "and they need to know about the full software lifecycle"

        There are a lot of talent out there amongst the dross, but even the gems tend to lack the following essentials:

        1) Knowing what a source control system is and how to use it.

        2) Developing *useful* tests.

        3) Communicating Sequential Processes (threading knowledge is fine - but it doesn't help folks develop scalable distributed applications at all).

        4) Understanding bandwidth & latency - and how it applies to things like CPUs/memory/networks & storage.

        5) make (not because we use it, just the principles and how you manage dependencies between components).

        YMMV :)

        1. Tom -1

          @Roo Re: Interesting...

          Your list of 5 points is interesting, but I would hope that a CS course would cover something a bit more scientific and a lot broader than your point 2" developing useful tests" (perhaps "error detection, containment, recovery and elimination") and while I have great respect for Tony Hoare and his CSP I would prefer people to be familiar with Rob Milner's work instead (CCS, ACCS, SCCS, and Pi-calculus) because it covers a much wider spectrum of styles of cooperation between processes. And I would regard your 1st example as good material for an engineering course but not computer science, and the 5th is about a particular build tool, nothing to do with science, and may be of interest to one employer in four.

          1. Roo
            Windows

            Re: @Roo Interesting...

            "I would hope that a CS course would cover something a bit more scientific and a lot broader than your point 2" developing useful tests"

            Testing is hard to get right and you're right, it's a very broad field. I chose to phrase #2 in that way because I often I see tests that simply bump up the code-coverage percentage but contribute little or nothing towards validating the system under test. I know I'm not alone in that because folks have developed entire methodologies to address that problem - but I don't want a methodology I want folks who can determine whether a test is *useful* rather than blindly follow a recipe book.

            "I have great respect for Tony Hoare and his CSP I would prefer people to be familiar with Rob Milner's work instead (CCS, ACCS, SCCS, and Pi-calculus"

            Fair comment, my reason for wanting folks to grok CSP is that it's a very straight forward model that is fairly easy to understand and apply to pretty much anything hardware or software. If they knew Pii-calculus that would be great, the others I can't comment on because I know precious little about them. :)

            I'm happy to agree with you that most of this stuff wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for a pure Computer Science course, not sure what the correct course title would be though. :)

    3. randymcstab

      Alas

      That is true. Tell your tutors to stop teaching Java and multimedia.

      To be honest, the problem is not the courses, but the people going for the jobs. Some turn up with out even knowing about the company.

      I spent 12 months after graduation delivering pizzas and trying to get some small IT experience.

      10 years on I am on around £60k. But it took time, effort, and alas more exams.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      In previous lives I've interviewed for entry level testing and level 3 support roles.

      Most don't have an appreciation for testing - their university course skimmed over it as some documentation overhead you do at the end of your project, and only saw it as a springboard into development (why not apply for dev roles then!).

      As for support, trying to probe the steps they would take to analyse an issue - most suggested that they would dive into the source code, again as universities suggest that code development is the only skillset you would need - totally negating to mention log analysis, stack trace investigation, network conditions etc.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @Anonymous Curd

      I used to start off interviews for junior jobs with a few simple questions, such as:

      How big is an int in C?

      What are the most basic constructs in programming?

      What happens if you multiply two numbers and the result overflows?

      What do you need to take into account when selecting a primary key?

      By the time I retired, people with compsci degrees often seemed unable to answer even the first one. I remember one arguing with me that the size of integers "wasn't important" because Javascript took care of all that. He claimed to have a first from a former poly.

      1. Paul 76

        Re: @Anonymous Curd

        .... well it does depend on what C for what platform :) Which is probably what you wanted to hear :)

        So this person with a first didn't realise there aren't any actual integers in Javascript ?

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: @Anonymous Curd

        "How big is an int in C?"

        Accountant's answer: how big do you want it to be?

        1. tcritchley07

          Re: @Anonymous Curd

          Who cares? Certainly not the business manager whose app it is related to.

      3. Qu Dawei

        Re: @Anonymous Curd

        This type of "dumbing down" of degrees that often used to be reasonable seems endemic in UK higher education now. The concentration on exam results which influence a lecturer's standing in some way, and the bad analogy of the student being a "customer" has led to a race to the bottom, often. The Russell Group Universities are trying to avoid this, but they are not immune.

        The "customer" analogy is not good because even if you accept that student in, in some way, similar to a customer, it is far too simplistic: society and potential employees are also major "customers", but perhaps the whole business model of higher education needs rethinking with various post-degree real apprenticeships or intern posts built into the degree - similar things used to be called "sandwich degrees". Of course, real apprenticeships as alternatives to higher degrees and a concerted anti-education and anti-intellectual undercurrent that seems to run through society needs addressing. A situation where, for example, people seem to brag about being ignorant of arithmetic, maths, or science still goes unchallenged, and people should be ashamed of admitting this as a kind of "coolness".

  6. Tom Wood

    Quality of graduates

    We're a small/medium sized software consultancy (~60 or so employees in the UK). This year we advertised a vacancy for a software graduate. Many who applied who were either in the final year of their course or who had graduated with a Computer Science or similar degree failed our 10-question online multiple choice filter test. The test in question is open book and not time limited; the questions cover the basics of programming and CS theory, nothing complex; and our "pass" mark is only 6 out of 10. (Question 11 is "how many of the above answers did you look up online or ask for help with" - we wouldn't necessarily reject someone who looked up most of the answers, provided they got them all right!)

    Of those who got to an interview (6 candidates if I remember correctly), none was up to standards (and our standards are not overly high for a graduate; we're talking basic failings like being unable to write a "for" loop in C/C++/Java). We left the graduate role unfilled this year. We do also take a "year in industry" student, who we interview about half way through their second year at uni, with the same questions and interview process, and universally the "year in industry" applicants were brighter and more capable than the graduate ones.

    Which suggests that somehow we failed to attract the "good" graduates, and were left with a bunch who had somehow graduated or were on track to graduate in Computer Science but yet failed to understand the fundamentals of their chosen subject.

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: unable to write a "for" loop in C/C++/Java

      After graduating with a degree in computing ? I agree that nobody can know everything, but come on. A loop is part of the basic, simple things one does all the time when programming. If you can't do that with a diploma in hand, the basics are simply not being covered.

      Now, if the degree concerns network infrastructure and communication, then you're not supposed to be a programmer. You are destined to become those upon whom the Internet relies the most : the exalted Network Engineer, the guy who knows how a packet goes from A to B and why. The guy who knows what an MX entry is and what it's for. The guy who digs all the thrilling stuff they're doing in them thar Clouds. I don't mind you not knowing how to code a loop, you are the other side of IT - the one that supports the data flow that programmers create.

      The curriculum might need a bit more clarity in that aspect.

      1. Cab

        Re: unable to write a "for" loop in C/C++/Java

        That wouldn't surprise me if the degree was Computing, chances are the student hasn't done any programming in anger since their first year. Computing degrees concentrate on using technology not writing code. If you're looking for someone to work in the IT dept. doing some database, networking, server configuration etc. and writing the odd script or SQL query then Computing may be the go to place but for coding look for Software Engineering, CS or even Games Programming (those students will have done (or should have) a lot C/C++ with maths and some realise they aren't going to be the next Gabe Newell).

        1. Tom Wood

          Re: unable to write a "for" loop in C/C++/Java

          I can't remember the degree, but it was most likely computer science or something very similar (actually we've found at least a couple of unis have a course called Computer Games Programming which is actually basically Computer Science but made to sound sexier to 17 year olds who are applying for a degree).

          Though, I'd still expect a Computing/IT graduate to be able to write a loop, maybe in Bash/Python/whatever scripting language they prefer but surely they're going to need to automate doing repetitive stuff at some point?!

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: unable to write a "for" loop in C/C++/Java

            Maybe they don't use for loops and map across immutable sequences instead?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: unable to write a "for" loop in C/C++/Java

              Maybe the good ones- whatever their degree subject- are courted by the law/consulting/investment banking giants that seem to make up 99% of university careers guidance that I've seen. The year in industry needs to suit their course, the career afterwards doesn't.

      2. Tom Wood

        Re: unable to write a "for" loop in C/C++/Java

        The guy who was completely unable to write a for loop was an extreme example, but the sort that sticks in your head. Sure, he'd probably done it before and I'm sure his uni software project must have contained many loops, but sat in front of a computer he couldn't remember the syntax. I can't remember whether he claimed to know C, C++ or Java but as the loop syntax is the same and we'd given him a choice of languages, the fact he couldn't do even this basic thing from memory was rather concerning. (It wasn't the only thing where he failed to show knowledge or understanding, however).

    2. MonkeyCee

      Re: Quality of graduates

      I'm currently studying a fairly well regarded CS type degree (Knowledge Engineering and Data Science) in the Netherlands, where the "sandwich course" (there's some German name for it here that I can say but not write) is still in big favor.

      The top 30-40% of my first year class have already got (paid) internships, with the majority of companies aiming to keep them on through a masters, then 5+ years afterwards. Based on what happens with the other years, I'd estimate 60% will be placed by end of second year, and 75% by final year. Given that about 5-10% go into the research track* (which precludes you interning), there will only be 15-20% of people graduating who don't already have jobs lined up. They will also tend to be some combination of less motivated, less able or missing desirable secondary skills like additional languages.

      This seems to bear out with your experience, in that grads that haven't got a job during their study are *less* desirable than ones who are midway through and want to get more relevant experience.

      There are a number of other educational institutes around, teaching what I think of as poly style** CS courses (programming, networking and security) who produce excellent programmers. Enough that we are strongly discouraged from competing with them directly for roles, as a programming position should go to them, whereas we should be doing more data focused activities. Well, if we want school credit.

      I'm also a little shocked that a CS course means a student hasn't really done "proper" writing. First year alone, we had two short essays, four group reports and three group presentations. Plus another four short reports that where optional but could get you a bump in your grades. You are also expected to produce a thesis in your final year and defend it, plus publish a joint paper if you're doing the research track. At the very least you should be able to write a basic report, and some semblance of simple research and summation for a less technical audience.

      * the research track and work placement are part of the honors program, and research gets to play with robots, so there may be more going there than in previous years.

      ** not intended as any insult. The Dutch education system can be rather vocationally focused, but they do manage to instill a good basis of knowledge whilst giving top level instruction for job related education. Placements/internships are required as part of the course.

  7. tomp21

    Says more about CS grads than the degrees

    As someone who spent a number of years working in a University Careers service, I can anecdotally report that IT grads are notoriously difficult to motivate to get a job on finishing - I suspect the figures look better after 12-18 months once mum and dad have got fed up of them loafing on the sofa!

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where I work, we have a policy of hiring a bunch of new grads every year for software dev jobs. Many (though not all) of these are CS grads.

    Let me tell you what I've found from working with these guys over the last few years: The quality is massively variable.

    A bit of variablilty in skills shouldn't be a surprise; we're talking about human beings after all; everyone is different. But the gulf between the best and worst is a surprise.

    I've worked with some awesome people; freshly minted grads who had the dev chops of a senior engineer. And I've worked with some appaling ones; seriously, I don't expect to have to explain programming basics to a CS grad, but it's happened more than once.

    Without exception, all of the good ones have left after a year at work, to persue further eduction. One guy had his sights set on a PhD in artificial intelligence, and I know you he's going to succeed in that.

    The bad ones? Well they generally stick around for longer, not learning much, never even getting to the next pay grade. They don't get things wrong per se, but equally they're not useful for creating good software; they generally end up doing mundane maintenance tasks and the repetetive stuff that we haven't got round to automating yet.

    I'm not a hiring manager, but if I was, this whole setup would depress me. I expect someone with a degree in CS to be a reasonably good developer, just by virtue of having the qualification. If I can't rely on that then its going to make me think twice about hiring raw grads, and look for someone with a bit of experience as well to back it up.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I've met a couple of people who explain the problem perfectly

      There are certainly CS graduates who went through their three or four year degree course avoiding all the "boring technical stuff" at all costs. Some of them have Firsts...

  9. Rande Knight

    I see nothing has changed

    I graduated in 96 and even then they didn't teach programming (past the first few lines in Year 1)

    Coding was something we were expected to learn by ourselves. What they did teach was the theory behind programming, rather than the syntax and foibles of a particular language.

    And even today, 20 years on, I can count on my fingers the number of times training was provided to anyone on my teams (I was allowed one, in 2000). We train ourselves on our own time because no one else is going to. They really need to be up front about that so that in the 6 months before the first job, the new grads have been pounding keyboards and heads against desks doing some real coding.

    1. SVV

      Re: I see nothing has changed

      Well I would say that someonee embarking on a CS degree should ALREADY know how to code......

      Surely if they were serious about studying for a carrer in IT they would have learnt how to by the age of 18? Itaught myself coding when I was 14, during the first home comuter boom when coding was much more accessible and straightforward than it is now, but the basic prirnciples still apply

      Carreerwise, I did an engineering degree but it put me off engineering . After a bit of hunting around for something to do, I found a scheme for trainee programmers and found myself working as an unpaid trainee for 6 months (OK, you got the dole plus an extra tenner a week on top) However the deal was if you worked hard and learnt quickly, and the boss liked you, you'd get a job at the end, which is what happened Over subsequent years my salary rose very steeply and quickly as he liked to keep hold of talent, so it was worth the initial sacrifice.

      1. Tom Wood

        Re: I see nothing has changed

        "Well I would say that someonee embarking on a CS degree should ALREADY know how to code......"

        Well, that wasn't me. Sure I was "good with computers" at school, and learned a bit of HTML etc, and my A-level further maths included modules of discrete mathematics (algorithms and so on), but I didn't actually write my first "hello world" until I started my CS degree course in 2003. There were no programming courses at school, and nobody to encourage me to program.

        I graduated with a 1st class MEng in 2007, and have done alright in software jobs since ;-)

        I would imagine that most 17 year olds who think they know how to code, don't really. They may be able to hack together code from examples, but they probably don't understand the detail of *why* things are done the way they are (or better ways of doing things)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I see nothing has changed

        I'm a lecturer at a UK university and believe me we would LOVE to be able to assume that everyone could code but that's not the reality.

        We have to assume 0 programming knowledge from the students because that is what we get from a lot of them. The students that do have previous experience are also a challenge because we've got to keep them engaged and interested while we get all the noobs up to speed and every year there is a decent chunk of students that drop out because they "don't like programming".

        The only consolation is that we're not the only people that have to deal with this issue of people picking a course with no idea if they like the subject. Talking to colleagues on the Art side they have to spend the first year teaching people how to draw.

        We are seriously hopeful that in a few more years when the students that have done the new national curriculum programming stuff have made it through to us we can just drop the entire first year programming modules and move all the other years along one (year 2 becomes year 1, masters becomes year 3 etc). But as of yet we have no idea if that's actually going to work out but it would be glorious.

        1. Dave 15

          Re: I see nothing has changed

          But of course the standards at O (sorry GCSE) and A level haven't been eroded since the days when 3 A levels was normal and 4 outstanding to the situation today where 8 seems fairly average.

        2. tcritchley07

          Re: I see nothing has changed

          Coding is not computing in its entirety and I speak as someone who has spent five decades in IT, both at the coalface and writing. If an IT app project is imagine as taking the time from 9 am to 5 pm, coding appears at about 1 pm. If the coder knows nothing about what happens between 9 am and 1 pm and after the coding period until 5pm, he is not much use in coal face IT and certainly will never progress beyond being a coder. Always remember that plus the fact that you may be employed in IT but notexpected to code but be an IT all rounder.

          Coing is OK if you know you wnat to be a coder, otherwise, it is of little use in real life IT.

      3. Paul 76

        Re: I see nothing has changed

        No, virtually nobody does that any more. Some of us who are really old wrote our own games because we didn't have any otherwise (I had three computers before I had one which had any real games for it, the BBC Micro) by which time I was well in.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I see nothing has changed

      "Coding was something we were expected to learn by ourselves. What they did teach was the theory behind programming, rather than the syntax and foibles of a particular language."

      Sounds like the correct way of doing it - teach the theory and foundation of the subject, and you can quickly learn another new language. Just teach someone how to program in (say) C, and it's less effective...

  10. Teiwaz

    I did an HND first, before a degree.

    I learnt a hell of a lot more on the HND (and the BTEC 'plain A-Level equiv' ND before it).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I did an HND first, before a degree.

      Ditto brother. I have one OND Electronics and one HND Software ( controls systems). They are much better than a Degree. At least I can debug and write real time embbeded code and cirtuits and cover the PC side of things too. Not a master of anything but I do deliver and solve problems.

      I would not have had this life changing education without a discretionary grant.

  11. Dave 15

    Skills gap??? More like pay gap

    Sorry, I am an old fart now but I do still look at job adverts from time to time.

    Contracting... mostly less but occasionally the same rates as last time I contracted 20 years back

    Permanent... nothing better than 70% of my perm salary from 10 years back.

    If you think you really can get it all done in India, China etc. then go ahead do, will be amusing watching you fail and going bust.

    If you think you can get it done in Eastern Europe you at least have a brain but when you want to discuss that urgent defect or the design... don't forget the plane flight.

    UK employers need to wise up.

    An engineer is NOT worth less than a dustcart driver, and has certainly spent a hell of a lot more getting educated

    An engineer could really benefit from some recognition, an office with decent lighting, whiteboards, proper computer, sensible desk, comfy chair... not some piece of nearly as good as mfi junk you got from the cheapest store on the internet in a filthy hovel with no storage, no shelves and a pile of junk in every corner. Oh and while you are at it mr Employer can you please stop making 200 people share one pee covered crud encrusted never cleaned toilet.

    An engineer could do with some feeling of working on something interesting and forward looking (not copying someone elses idea), and have some prospect of getting thanked for the 6 months of 18 hour days forced on him by a salesman unable to realise it takes time and effort to craft a functioning anything.

    People wonder why those that are any good moved on and are now earning 100x as much in a bank (stealing other peoples money and producing nothing), or have given up and gone fruit picking.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fine with me

    It's an uphill battle sometimes even with a degree AND years of experience

    Degrees should not be am automatic Get a Job card.

    They should help, but experience uber alles

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The usual old prejudices wheeled out

    "Another recommendation Shadbolt made was for students to develop softer skills, such as teamwork and interpersonal skills, alongside technical expertise."

    The implied assumption isn't representative of recent comp-sci graduates I've encountered.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Meanwhile, back in America..

    Here's a real-life example of just how clueless company hiring can get. The year was 2009 and I was interested in a posted job and had most of the qualifications - except one. They asked for someone with "5+ years experience with Solaris 10" - Solaris 10 had only been released barely 4 years prior. I tried to tell the HR idiot this and her response was "you either have it or you don't".

    Not sure what the situation in the UK is, but here in the colonies, the best (and oft times only) way to get hired is to circumvent company hiring personnel and systems entirely by finding someone inside to give you a chance. This soft skill is rarely taught in university.

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Meanwhile, back in America..

      'They asked for someone with "5+ years experience with Solaris 10"'

      I blame ISO9000 and similar crap for this. They have their quality manuals saying that everyone working with whatever should have a minimum of 5 years in it because it looks impressive. Unfortunately it's written by someone with a total lack of contact with the real world (my view of most quality wonks) who doesn't realise that (a) in some fields technologies turn over faster than that, (b) there's no way everyone arrives fully minted with 5 years' experience in anything and (c) there's no way on paper of distinguishing between 5 years' experience and 1 year's experience repeated 5 times.

  15. Ian Ringrose

    Anything less than a 2:1 is a fail……

    If someone has less than a 2:1 in Comp Sci, it is likely they are not able to problem, yet it is still claimed they passed their degree.

    1. Vic

      Re: Anything less than a 2:1 is a fail……

      If someone has less than a 2:1 in Comp Sci, it is likely they are not able to problem

      Well, if you meant "program" rather than "problem", then I disagree.

      The best grads I employed both had thirds. Very bright, rather lazy. That makes for an excellent developer...

      Vic.

      1. Ian Ringrose

        Re: Anything less than a 2:1 is a fail……

        But how many grads with thirds to do you need to interview to find the "Very bright, rather lazy" one, and how do you know they will not be lazy in the job....

        1. Vic

          Re: Anything less than a 2:1 is a fail……

          But how many grads with thirds to do you need to interview to find the "Very bright, rather lazy" one

          I interviewed two...

          and how do you know they will not be lazy in the job

          You don't. It's something of a punt - but that;s why you have interviews - to try to ascertain whether this is someone you think you can work with...

          Vic.

  16. Brian Allan 1

    Reinvention

    I've been a software designer/consultant for close to 50 years. As such I've had to reinvent myself about once very five years to stay current. The problem with new graduates is that it take about five years to gain reasonable software skills, and by then they are outdated and pretty much have to start over... It is a tough industry!

    1. Brian Allan 1

      Re: Reinvention

      Addendum...

      Think Assembler, Fortran, Cobol, QBasic, Pascal, Snowbol, Visual Basic, SymCon, ADA, Lisp, Visual J++, C, C++, C#, C.NET, VB.NET, Perl, Java, Javascript, Python, PHP, F# and almost every other language that was the fad at one time or another. And the list continues to grow...

      1. Paul 76

        Re: Reinvention

        Yes, but if you are half decent you can flip about. I'm working on a project for someone in C++ on VS. Then I'm programming 1801 assembler for fun in the background. It's not that difficult, you just have to make allowances for the limitations of different languages.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "There are certainly CS graduates who went through their three or four year degree course avoiding all the "boring technical stuff" at all costs. Some of them have Firsts..."

    I listened to one of them in a meeting talk several minutes of complete b*ks about how he was going to design a reporting front end. Tackled about it afterwards he admitted that he had "skipped the stuff on reporting at Uni because it was boring." Yes, but he didn't want to miss the chance to impress the boss...

    PHP is not a good idea when you need to analyse and present complex queries over medium sized (a few million records) data sets using an Azure backend. But it can be made to sound good to the nontechnical, especially if your own knowledge is half an hour reading stuff on stackoverflow.

  18. nautica Silver badge
    Happy

    Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.--Djikstra

    "UK employers still reluctant to hire recent CompSci grads"

    WHAT?! After all the millions of "Raspberry Pi" s sold?

    1. Paul 76

      Re: Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.--Djikstra

      ..... they aren't sold to CompSci grads...

  19. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

    What's a "digital" job anyway?

    I didn't see any real definition in the article.

  20. legless82

    I graduated in 2003

    in CompSci from a top 5 university.

    The syllabus was extremely thorough, teaching everything from the low-level electronic architecture, through assembler and higher-level languages, including problem solving in some slightly oddball languages such as Haskell. A strong emphasis was placed on sensible use of design patterns and optimisation. There was lots of maths, along with many, many hours of logic, formal specification, networks etc.

    As you would probably expect, there were many people on the course who I considered to be extremely intelligent and had a natural talent for what they did.

    It was only during my final year though that my mind turned to employment, and it's only natural at this stage to start mentally sizing yourself up against the competition - the other people on the course. Sure - there were people who could run rings around me on the course, but I came to the realisation that there was a good proportion of the course group that I considered virtually unemployable. Clever - undoubtedly, but they lacked either the self awareness necessary to perform well in a corporate environment, or they lacked motivation to work on anything that they didn't find personally interesting. There's jobs out there for people like this, but those people aren't what most employers are looking for.

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