back to article Paper wasps that lie to their mates get a right kicking, research finds

Cheating is an unforgivable offence for paper wasps and has a direct effect on their hormones, according to new research published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Paper wasps (polistes dominulus) have elongated bodies that can reach an inch in size. They build their nests by chewing plant and wood …

  1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    Stop

    The cost of cheating

    They didn't cheat. The poor little buggers were modified against their own judgement and forced into a combat they hadn't decided. They then found themselves on the wrong end of anti-cheating enforcement. It may have been done in the name of science, but I don't see that the issue was properly thought through.

    Neither do I see that the conclusion is correct. There are animals that cheat. Find some of those and examine what the cheating does to them, instead of taking living beings that don't and forcing an unnatural situation on them.

    Who's to say that cheaters are being punished ? Why not say that victorious paper wasp queens decide to go the extra mile when beating on an opponent that they thought was tougher, but actually isn't ? What about the euphoria of victory ?

    I do not approve of this study. I do not feel that it was justified, and I do not agree on the conclusion.

    1. Bloakey1

      Re: The cost of cheating

      I agree wholeheartedly. Could it be that the spots had bugger all to do with it? The ones that were daubed were not up to the job and as they fought their bodies lost some of the hormone if it had it in that level to start with. The winners were bound to have higher levels as they had it in the first place.

      I do not approve of this either. Why not put some fake scars on a few of the scientists doing this research and then chuck them in the ring with some nasty characters. A nice fight to the death would do and then we could drain them of their blood and make some nice black pudding for breakfast.

      1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

        Re: The cost of cheating

        @Bloakey1: Boffin Steelcage Deathmatch does sound intriguing.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The cost of cheating

      Poor method, poor control = Totally invalid experiment.

      This one is "just wasps", but I wonder how many more of the millions and millions of live animal experiments performed in the UK alone are also crap science ? :-(

      ( Cutting the number of animal experiments was another thing Cameron f£$%ed up . )

    3. Alister
      Thumb Up

      Re: The cost of cheating

      Well said Pascal, the whole basis of the "experiment" seems flawed to me, they don't even mention if they had a control group of unpainted vs unpainted wasps fighting to compare traits with. And the conclusion drawn from the "experiment" seems wholly out of proportion to the actual results.

      Bad science, in my view.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: The cost of cheating

        >Poor method, poor control = Totally invalid experiment.

        >>the whole basis of the "experiment" seems flawed to me, they don't even mention if they had a control group of unpainted vs unpainted wasps fighting to compare traits with.

        Strewth. The paper hasn't been published yet, and it is in that - as opposed to a press release or a 'chat' with the Reg - in which you would expect to find the details of the methods used in this study.

    4. Hollerithevo

      Re: The cost of cheating

      I concur with the other commentards who were rather revolted by this 'experiment'. It proved nothing but what happens when you falsely paint a combative insect's face. The 'draining of blood' even from a wasp to study it after they arranged its pain-filled and terrified death was the last straw for me.

      Insects have opiates, ie they feel pain. If we decide to exterminate insects such as wasps in our homes, we should seek ways that are as swift and painless as possible.

      E.O. Wilson said, 'Be careful of little lives.'

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: The cost of cheating

        >Insects have opiates, ie they feel pain.

        And we only know that because people have experimented on wasps.

        To all those deploring the researcher as a sadist, it was her research in 2002 that showed that wasps are capable of recognising individual wasps from their facial markings. Heck, she's probably harmed fewer wasps than many a rural boy with a petrol can and a free afternoon, and she's done so to expand our understanding of social insects, and understanding we can put to the benefit of wasps should we choose to.

        Comparing her to a character from Iain Banks' first novel isn't helpful.

        Wasps in the UK are generally useful for pest control, and not usually aggressive (if one takes an interest in your cider, waft it away instead of swatting at it).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The cost of cheating

          "Wasps in the UK are generally useful for pest control, and not usually aggressive (if one takes an interest in your cider, waft it away instead of swatting at it)."

          Indeed. Having been growing veg in NE USA for a few years I can say that despite a non-fatal allergy to wasp stings, I have learned to appreciate wasps. On the other hand, butterflies are scum that expect you to raise their fat, greedy offspring.

          1. Triggerfish

            Re: The cost of cheating

            On the other hand, butterflies are scum that expect you to raise their fat, greedy offspring.

            That just tickled me for some reason have an upvote.

    5. Mystic Megabyte
      Stop

      Re: The cost of cheating

      I agree that this experiment was badly done and perhaps should not have been done.

      These butterflies cheat ants by pretending to be one.

      http://www.seeker.com/amazonian-butterfly-steals-precious-goo-from-ants-1904409937.html

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The cost of cheating

      I suggest putting each of the researchers into the ring with a cage fighter and see how well they like it!

    7. Nick Kew

      Re: They didn't cheat

      Agreed, they didn't cheat. Pleased to see mine is just one of many upvotes for that comment.

      By contrast, El Reg did cheat. A clickbait headline suggesting a really interesting story, leading to this.

      1. Alan W. Rateliff, II
        Flame

        Re: They didn't cheat

        "By contrast, El Reg did cheat. A clickbait headline suggesting a really interesting story, leading to this."

        Right! Here I was on Hump Day expecting to read about wasps getting a good going over for having extraromantic rhompy-bhompy, and instead I get tarted up queens in a Little Miss child beauty pageant cage match in old Aztec-style (except that both contestants get bled-out afterward.)

        Shame on you, 'Reg. I suppose soon we will start seeing Vulture Central coverage of underground wasp fighting.

    8. Eddy Ito

      Re: The cost of cheating

      Agreed. I also notice the "cheaters" were ones who had facial marks added and weren't up for the fight initially. I would have at least thought they would have taken some of the more aggressive ones and covered up the facial marks as another method of cheating. Alas, that's probably been left to the next round of blood sport as science.

    9. Lord Elpuss Silver badge

      Re: The cost of cheating

      Well said Pascal. This is an example of the worst kind of 'science'.

  2. 45RPM Silver badge

    It hardly seems fair. I mean, in this experiment, the poor wasp wasn't cheating - it was some bastard human with a toothpick full of falsehoods. It'd be like me writing "I'm a really nice, trustworthy, guy. Honest guv" in indelible ink on Nigel Farage's forehead and then sending him in to do battle with Paxman and Humphries.

    The only difference being that I'd feel a bit sorry for the wasp in the former case, and I'd be mainlining popcorn in the latter.

    1. Swarthy
      Boffin

      In this case, I don't think it's punishment for cheating, I think it's eugenics. The false markings remove the correlation between the ability to fight and the markings. This could lead to an inferior queen getting the spot because of her marks, and producing week workers and eventual colony collapse. The reduced JH and harsher "beat-down" is to ensure that the genetic anomaly will never reproduce, and the "lying" (read: broken) genes are eliminated from the gene pool.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Exactly!

        There's no evolutionary reason that a queen wasp with more black marks on her face should be a better fighter, unless those with black marks are killed after losing a fight while those without black marks are not (maybe they will develop the black marks down the road?)

        The question I have is what happens if a queen WITHOUT black marks wins a fight? They should cover up the black marks of a good fighter and find out.

  3. TRT Silver badge

    Killing wasps...

    Good in my book, whatever the reason. I hate the stripes little f***ers.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. King Jack
      Unhappy

      Re: Killing wasps...

      Wasps look dangerous but are pussys. An ant bite hurts way more. They look hard but are harmless and don't deserve death. I don't know why people are afraid of them. I'll take wasps over flies any day.

      1. TRT Silver badge

        Re: Killing wasps...

        I had one caught behind my Kevin Keegan hairdo when I was a kiddy in the 70s. Stung the f*** out of me - ear, neck, skull... I'm told there were over 24 stings there before my much younger brother managed to hit it with a heavy plastic cricket bat, knocking me unconscious and into the goldfish pond.

        So, yeah, I'm kind of biased.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Killing wasps...

          Wow. Could've been a candidate for Most Tragic Death Ever if you'd drowned!

          I'm not sure what wasp the article relates to (a more solitary cousin of the yellowjacket?) but I can say the solitary American mud wasp packs a pretty powerful sting, and has a habit of blundering into shirtsleeves etc. "Mostly" harmless =/

          1. Triggerfish

            Re: Killing wasps...

            Predators of a lot of pest insects, wasps get a bad press when they can actually be quite useful.

            1. GrumpenKraut
              Pint

              Re: Killing wasps...

              > Predators of a lot of pest insects, ...

              Also predators of people in the beer gardens in the summer. For murdering insects you may want to look at hornets, these include wasps in their diet.

              1. Triggerfish

                Re: Killing wasps...

                Frankly having seen the size of some Hornets, I'll stick with wasps.

          2. TRT Silver badge

            Re: Killing wasps...

            Christ no! Thank God, I didn't die! I wouldn't want to go to heaven with a hairdo like that. *shudders*

            1. Triggerfish

              Re: Killing wasps... @TRT

              Thinking of how me and my Brother got on as kids. I would not be suprised if you said wasps were your brothers favourite animal. :)

          3. GrumpenKraut
            Mushroom

            Re: Killing wasps...

            > ...blundering into shirtsleeves etc.

            Happened to me a couple of times (common or German wasp). Stings varied from pretty painful to god-fecking-awful. The mark of one sting was visible for more than two years.

            These species also tend to take a bath in your beer mug, hence lids.

            Can't say I like these critters. -------------->

        2. Mark 85
          Holmes

          @TRT -- Re: Killing wasps...

          Scientific question... Does the cricket bat to the head explain why you ended up in IT? Just curious as I got whacked by a broken baseball bat (during a game) as kid? Maybe there's a bunch of us who got whacked?

          Icon.. for wondering about such things on a lazy Wednesday.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Cock...

    ...fighting.

    It's basically cock-fighting with wasps. I wonder if they gambled on the winner as well?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cock...

      Exactley how big is a wasps cock?

      1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

        Re: Cock...

        I think you'd need to ask a chicken-wasp to get an answer to that.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The 2 common

    Wasp species in the UK, vespula germanica and v.vulgaris are not generally aggressive unless their nest is disturbed or it is late in the wasp season, september ish. Then as the nest is dying the workers are left with no food and no purpose. So off they go feasting on fallen fruit which is already fermenting.Result is a very angry pissed up wasp..

    1. Alan W. Rateliff, II
      Joke

      Re: The 2 common

      Let me get this straight. A bunch of workers losing jobs or not doing anything useful on their jobs go out and get drunk, then have a few fights?

    2. GrumpenKraut

      Re: The 2 common

      > ...vespula germanica and v.vulgaris are not generally aggressive...

      If they want what you are about to eat/drink they tend to be extremely annoying. I may have (barely!) avoided getting one of these in my mouth a dozen times. Other species are much better by avoiding humans in the first place.

  6. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

    Paper wasps (polistes dominulus) have elongated bodies that can reach an inch 0.1814 Linguine in size.

    FTFY. No charge.

  7. PK
    Coat

    They might take our hives, but they'll never take ...

    Once she had a painted face, she probably went all Braveheart and started buzzing about "...our freedom"

  8. John Mangan

    "paper wasp queens"

    - Wasp stings Queen

    - Queen wipes bum with paper

    - Wasp gets wrapped up in paper and thrown in the bin

  9. Chris G

    Did you know

    If you drain the blood of an angry, pissed up, post fight biologist, they die.

    Wasps can be irritating and after detonating an ounce or so of black powder(as I have mentioned a couple of weeks ago) in a nest can be pretty aggressive, however, they do more good than harm, preying such things as the 'leather jacket' crane fly larvae that bugger your lawn.

    Other wasps are essential for the pollination of fruits, particularly figs that will not fruit without the several species of particular wasp.they depend on.

    Parasitic wasps help to keep cereal moths populations down, etc.

  10. Chris Miller

    Unlike hornets or yellow jackets, paper wasps are not particularly aggressive by nature.

    Obviously a US study, from the use of "yellow jackets", and I can't speak about US hornets, but European hornets are not aggressive. They look fearsome (like a wasp on steroids), but are very effective predators of small (pest) insects, have no interest in your picnic food, and are unlikely to sting unless you do something daft, like poking a nest with a stick.

    If we get a wasps' nest near the house, it (reluctantly) has to go; but I leave hornets alone to do their thing.

    PS I hear that (Japanese) giant hornets are building colonies in southern Europe - they really are fearsome (and very bad news for honey bee colonies, which they can destroy in a few hours).

    1. Triggerfish

      One of the problems with Japanese Hornets (and the main species of Asian Hornet) is they also release the pheromone that incites other hornets to attack also, which is why you do not want to get stung by one. They put a fair few people in hospital and cause a quite a few fatalities each year.

      Also if you hit them with one of those electric tennis racket things, they don't always go zap, sometimes they just get annoyed.

  11. Yugguy

    JH hormones?

    Tell me someone is gathering this in an attempt to create a superhero.

  12. cd

    Real Cheating

    In the southwest US there are robberflies that have a bee-like appearance, like an emaciated thrift-store bumble bee. My guess, having seen them carrying around gory insect parts to munch on, is that it is wolf-in-sheep's-clothing gambit; prey that wouldn't evade a bee get tricked into being lunch.

    In any case it appears that the cheater doesn't get punished in that scenario, but the the deceived does. So much for all that earnest idiocy.

    And why does this story keep cross-pollinating with the Kardashian story? Cheaters? False markings? Perhaps we could use them in a similar experiment, fewer people would be appalled.

  13. Leeroy

    Perhaps

    Being poked in the face by a toothpick doesn't sound very nice. Maybe they were so stressed out by the pokey stick they just lost the will to fight.

  14. phil 27

    I used to be afraid of wasps after a mega sting incident as a kid and a nest with hundreds of stings left in my scalp, but then I met asian hornets, and after that it kind of focuses your mind on how harmless the average wasp is in comparison. Wasps are a bit of a pain in the bum near bins and in beer gardens, but not the apocolypse I used to imagine them as.

    I was soldering something with a blowlamp when a extremely large asian hornet came for a persistent look, and I got it square on with the flame, and it flew off on fire with poisen running out of its sting like a hypodermic needle being purged mid flight. The singed crispy remnant managed to make it out of the garden before disappearing under its own power still.

    Another year we got a actual nest up one of the tall trees, and the fire brigade were on about getting private contractors in at thousands cost with specialist suits and cherry pickers because of where it was. I was harbouring plans to buy/equip a larger drone with some kind of remote release spray and nip up and do the job, until a early test reconnisance flight with my AR ended up with a crashed drone after they all mobbed it as it got near the nest. In the end, the nest "fell out" the tree with what looked like a large hole in it following a suspicious bang noise from the direction of a neighbors and the fire brigade came back and dealt with a bunch of peed off hornets on the ground in special suits instead. The nest went away for scientific analysis and some of the grubs and smaller pieces were used in exhibits to do science at local schools.

    Hopefully there was a control fight with fighting wasps with reverse painted faces to test. But have to wait for paper rather than clickbait for that.

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