back to article How a Brexit could stop UK biz and Europe swapping personal data

If the UK decides later this year to leave Europe – the so-called "Brexit" – it would have a severe knock-on impact on sharing people's personal data between Blighty and Euro nations. So warns internet governance expert Emily Taylor in a piece for London-based international affairs think tank Chatham House. Taylor warns that …

  1. Lysenko

    former EU partners less willing to jump to ... to rescue UK economic interests

    Fragmentation of the EU is not in that organisation's interests as it threatens its status as the largest economy in the world. After a UK withdrawal the EU would still have about $15.5T GDP. The UK, about $3T.

    This being the case, the only rational thing for the EU to do is to inflict (with plausible deniability) as much economic damage as possible on the UK as the EU is best served if withdrawal is demonstrated to be economically catastrophic for the withdrawing country (pour encourager les autres).

    This is just another tool in the box that can be leveraged to that end.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: former EU partners less willing to jump to ... to rescue UK economic interests

      @ Lysenko

      The EU doesnt seem too quiet about how they would like to inflict economic damage if we leave. Considering they inflict economic damage on its members anyway I dont see how we would be much worse off and since they are all self interested anyway with little actual cohesion I expect those who do well out of the UK will resist.

      Often I wonder with friends like these who needs enemies

      1. Lysenko

        Leaving the EU would increase costs for my company and all my customers and create precisely zero additional opportunities (because we already trade outside the EU as well). There is no conceivable advantage (to us) in turning a trading relationship with France or Germany into one reminiscent of the USA or Turkey.

        We already turn down American business because their electrical safety regs (UL) are different to those in the EU and the extra costs of certification make it uneconomic. There are literally thousands of cases like that already and leaving the EU is guaranteed to make things even worse. If the UK votes "out" we're moving the company to Scotland which we trust will swiftly vote out of the UK and back in to the EU.

        1. Vimes

          ...which we trust will swiftly vote out of the UK and back in to the EU.

          I seem to recall various EU representatives were saying prior to the independence referendum that an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership from scratch and that their application would not be fast tracked.

          I wonder how many years would pass between any theoretical Brexit and Scotland not only gaining independence but also being allowed to join the EU?

          1. Warm Braw

            an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership from scratch

            In the case that there would be an additional member of the EU. If there's an out vote in England, I think there is a case for Scotland (plus whatever other peripheral nations/regions) to remain as a successor state. They could even call themselves the United Kingdom...

            1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

              If there's an out vote in England, I think there is a case for Scotland (plus whatever other peripheral nations/regions) to remain as a successor state.

              Outside the SNP's reality distortion field there isn't such a case. The treaties are with the United Kingdom as a whole. The referendum, stupid idea in the first place, is for the whole of the UK. That's the deal that the government of the UK did with the rest of the EU and that the parliament of the UK, where Scotland is more than adequately represented, will produce a bill for a referendum.

              A low-oil Scotland would face a tough choice should it decide to leave the UK (main trading partner) and subsequently apply for EU membership. Schengen is now a condition for new members so that would mean border controls between England and Scotland.

              British, Bavarian, Catalan, Flemish and probably a whole load of others politicians don't half talk some shit when they get the chance.

              1. Jess

                re: a tough choice

                Scotland would get a very easy ride in, the situation is very different to the previous referendum. They would be seeking to remain in the EU. If that process is not supper smooth then they would be doing the entire organisation a huge disservice, and I'm sure they all know that.

                Schengen would not be a problem for Scotland, because it would be England that would have the stricter rules. Scotland would just allow English visas to be valid as well as Schengen visas and EEA citizens.

                England would have to control its own borders, which is what has repeatedly been demanded anyway.

              2. dajames

                British, Bavarian, Catalan, Flemish and probably a whole load of others politicians don't half talk some shit when they get the chance.

                FTFY.

            2. DavCrav

              "If there's an out vote in England, I think there is a case for Scotland (plus whatever other peripheral nations/regions) to remain as a successor state."

              Ooh, please let Scotland try for that one; I would vote for Brexit under that condition. I'd much rather be debt free and out of the EU than with £1tn of debt and in the EU.

              Oh, you mean you want the benefits of being the successor state without the problems? Right.

              1. SolidSquid

                > Ooh, please let Scotland try for that one; I would vote for Brexit under that condition. I'd much rather be debt free and out of the EU than with £1tn of debt and in the EU.

                I don't know, dare say we could make a few bob selling off Trident and Westminster, maybe the contents of the National Gallery. After all, the successor state takes ownership of all government assets as well as the debt doesn't it?

                More seriously though, thee's no way Scotland could be considered the successor state by Westminster without some fairly massive caveats on who gets what and how the debt is split up. It'd be more likely the two countries would split, forming new countries, and the debt would be split evenly based on population or something

          2. Lysenko

            @Vimes - Scotland not only gaining independence...

            Rejoining the EU: no way to know. The EU won't show its hand on that until afterwards. It will certainly happen faster than England's readmission though. Plan B is Dublin. We already incorporated a subsidiary there just in case.

            As for independence: almost immediate, subject to logistics. The SNP are keeping fairly quiet because they know that UK out of the EU guarantees Scotland out of the UK. They'll want to go for a referendum ASAP in order to ride the inevitable wave of anti "little Englander" sentiment. UKIP is the "English National Party" remember. They have zero traction North or (I believe) West of the border.

            NB: I say this as a Scot thus far consistently opposed to Scottish Independence.

            1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

              Re: @Vimes - Scotland not only gaining independence...

              "The SNP are keeping fairly quiet because they know that UK out of the EU guarantees Scotland out of the UK. "

              This seems to be a common assumption. Is there any evidence to back this up? Scotland voted not to go independent of the UK but are there polls showing a strong attachment to the EU if the UK as whole votes to leave? Or is that just SNP rhetoric? People who support and vote for a party don't always agree with every policy and a possible exit from a non-EU UK might not happen either since the party in government will have to hold a referendum on EU membership.

              1. Graham Dawson Silver badge

                Re: @John Brown - Scotland not only gaining independence...

                It creates a precedent for the dismantlement of sovereign unions. If the UK leaves the EU, it's a lot harder for the government of the day to then turn around and say "but Scotland should stay in our union!" without some people perceiving their actions as hypocrisy.

                Personally I'd argue quite strongly for Scotland to remain within an independent the UK, but I see no reason why they shouldn't be given another chance to vote on the matter at that point. At the very least there needs to be a fundamental reconsideration of how the UK is governed.

                1. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

                  Scotland not againing independence.

                  The act of Union was brought about because the opposing political parties in England saw a need for a symbolic head and because of a Scottish history of poor investments and bad treasury decisions. Later, with English backing, the clearances led to a peculiar show of power.

                  Is there anything in United Kingdomain that inspires anyone to believe the outcome of anything British or expat will ever bring squanderful benefits to any man or beast anywhere in the three countries?

                  1. SolidSquid

                    Re: Scotland not againing independence.

                    > because of a Scottish history of poor investments and bad treasury decisions.

                    Interesting bit of revisionist history there. The Act of Union was put through because of a single private venture by Scottish nobility, where they decided to invest all of their own money after England threatened any country allowing international investment with trade route blockades. When the venture failed, England offered to buy off the debts they accrued as a result of this so they could continue to live as nobility in exchange for them signing the Act. It wasn't actually anything to do with the Scottish treasury and only vaguely to do with it's government (since it's government consisted of the nobility largely, this being pre-democratic electiosn)

                2. Bluenose

                  Re: @John Brown - Scotland not only gaining independence...

                  The real issue here is not whether Scotland seeks indepence but whether Wales and Northern Ireland will go the same route. Both have large majorities in favour of staying in the EU as they both benefit materailly from that organisation.

                  And for Northern Ireland staying in the EU, whilst difficult politcally in many respects, is just a matter of agreeing to reunite the nation of Ireland.

              2. Jess

                Re: Is there any evidence to back this up?

                Polls I have seen are 2:1 in favour of EU membership in Scotland 3:1 in NI (which surprised me, probably due to the Good Friday agreement, everything could kick off again if they leave the EU).

                Wales and England were close to evens. Given the reliability of the polls in the General, I do not trust the English figure.

                One of the big arguments in the Scottish referendum was the worry they would be chucked out of the EU.

                The UKIP do far worse in Scotland than the rest of the Island.

                My feeling is the two most likely results of the referendum are a narrow vote to stay, or an English only vote to leave. I think a strong vote to stay or a unanimous vote to leave by all the nations are both unlikely.

                1. SolidSquid

                  Re: Is there any evidence to back this up?

                  > which surprised me, probably due to the Good Friday agreement, everything could kick off again if they leave the EU

                  Might be right that this is what people are thinking, but the Good Friday Agreement doesn't refer to the EU, but rather the ECHR. That's a large part of why the Conservatives have given up on the British Bill of Rights thing, they realised they would need to re-negotiate the Scotland Act, Good Friday Agreement and the Welsh Act (ok, I don't actually know what this one's called. Has the same conditions though), because all 3 reference the ECHR as an appeals route. ECHR membership is independent of the EU though afaik

              3. SolidSquid

                Re: @Vimes - Scotland not only gaining independence...

                One of the primary arguments against Scotland going independent at the time of the referendum was losing EU membership, which has a higher support in Scotland than it does in England. It might not be enough to trigger separation, but it would certainly boost the possibility of another referendum

          3. Jess

            Re: I wonder how many years would pass

            A likely scenario (assuming a larger pro EU vote than the previous pro UK vote) would be a hasty rerun of the Scottish referendum. Once that is done the UK would give notification of its intention. (Probably at the end of the year) During the two years the UK would split and at the end Scotland would remain within the EU and England would be out. I also suspect part of the deal would be that EU based Brits would be able to request Scottish citizenship, rather than get chucked out.

            Of course there are loads of variables. What would Wales and NI do? Would there be a rerun of the vote in England? (Because the question was for the UK, which would no longer exist.)

            It would also make the controlling our borders situation even more interesting. (After the fuss about the French saying if you leave we're not doing it for you any more.) How would we stop all the EU citizens who are allowed to to live in Scotland crossing the border? (Hadrian's wall is in the wrong place.)

            Interesting times.

            1. Bluenose

              Re: I wonder how many years would pass

              The fact that the UK as a whole will be requesting to leave the EU will create issues within the EU legal system not least because it will take more than two years of negotiations for Scotland to negotiate the required separation following an independence vote. There are also the political issues that existing within other EU countries that will have to be addressed if, Scotland were allowed to remain part of the EU. The Spanish and Belgiums will be forcibly anti the desired Scottish position as may others who have communities seeking to find a way to independence in Europe.

              As for borders, Kent is not the only border with the EU (Northern Ireland is a large and very porous border today) and when considered fully this whole island by its nature is a border and we do not have the manpower or financial resources to prevent incursions by migrants despite the claims of UKIP and others.

          4. SolidSquid

            This was something there were a lot of questions about, but because Westminster refused to make an official query to the EU before the referendum was decided there was never an official ruling. Part of the problem for the EU is that there's no mechanism for EU citizens to lose that citizenship, so technically any residents of an independent Scotland would have the full travel rights, work rights, etc which come with the EU without any of the obligations towards other EU citizens if they visited Scotland.

            Also I suspect there would be a different position on this within the EU if Scotland was going independent to remain part of it, since that's something they would want to encourage

        2. P. Lee

          So you magically lose the ability to comply with eu regs if the uk leaves? Why is that? How is meeting electrical regulations in the same way you do now for the same product you make now, more expensive than relocating your company?

          No one is talking about leaving the free trade area. Are you sure you are keeping up with the 5000 new legal regulations coming out of Brussels every year which the law lords have difficulty keeping up with? Are there no costs associated with that?

          The article seems to imply that if we exit the snoopers charter will get in the way of companies slurping your data but if we stay in it won't be a problem. Perhaps they are better off without us. It doesn't look good for us either way.

          In principle, do we really want foreign nations overriding our legislative? We may have horrible laws, but I don't think overriding our democracy from abroad is the way to fix the problem. Sure it would be nice to have German-style anti-snooping laws but what if the issue were Greek-style accountancy practices? Are you going to be as happy then to have given up the right to self-govern?

          "Ever closer Union" is a political goal not an economic one. It's also driven by the same fantasy that suggests one world government would be achievable or good. Have you seen how the Serbs and Croats love each other? I'm willing to sacrifice the New Holy Roman Empire on the altar of pragmatism. I'd love it if we could all sit around singing kumbya but I'm not willing to push political integration for the benefit of business. If you want to see what importing unpleasant foreign laws looks like, look at the TTIP and TPP. What do these treaties have to do with the eu? Not much directly, but we can cancel safe harbour if it turns out to be unsafe. Extracting ourselves from Maastricht is quite a bit harder.

      2. SundogUK Silver badge

        Re: former EU partners less willing to jump to ... to rescue UK economic interests

        Rubbish. Germany really doesn't need the damage to their car industry that would result from such a situation, so they will never let it happen.

        1. Lysenko

          Rubbish. Germany really doesn't need the damage...

          Germany can't control the EU as a whole. Evidence? The Euro crisis. It wouldn't have happened if the Bundesbank had been able to control the Eurozone.

          The Germans also have a lot to gain in Frankfurt if London gets marginalised in the finance sector. London is currently the de facto finance hub of an $18T Economy (largest in the world). Brexit and that goes down to $3T overnight.

          1. codejunky Silver badge

            Re: Rubbish. Germany really doesn't need the damage...

            @ Lysenko

            "The Germans also have a lot to gain in Frankfurt if London gets marginalised in the finance sector. London is currently the de facto finance hub of an $18T Economy (largest in the world). Brexit and that goes down to $3T overnight."

            Ha no. At no point does leaving mean we lose the financial centre which was before we joined and has continued since. However if we remain they have made clear that they do envy it and want to harm it with more tax. It makes a good scare story but doesnt measure up.

            As for leaving increasing the costs to your company, so? 1 company of how many? And since you currently comply with their regulations and as you seem to do international trade will still do if you want to ship to them anyway, it wont make 1 iota difference. On the other hand it removes the requirements on the rest.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Rubbish. Germany really doesn't need the damage...

              The City is uniquely placed to ride out an EU exit thanks to its competitive blend of low/zero tax, money laundering, and financial & legal structures tailor made for the successful international crook.

              Oh, and a continuing flow of cash from the UK taxpayer.

              1. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects
                Facepalm

                Germany really doesn't do the damage.

                I was looking at a news item about the production of Aero Engines in Derby. Apparently Rolls Royce manages to put each one together with a five man team. I hate to think of us losing 5 jobs to the Germans. How will we cope?

                More importantly will Boeing manage to afford the obvious improvement in quality of engines not licensed for their ability to withstand chicken canon-fire. I am pretty sure German sausages will be easier to digest.

            2. Lysenko

              @codejunky

              "At no point does leaving mean we lose the financial centre"

              Tell that to the Banks. We've had two projects brought forward for DC builds in the last few months. One US Bank and one British. Both in Frankfurt, both involving site shutdowns in the Milton Keynes/London corridor.

              "it wont make 1 iota difference. "

              It most certainly will make a difference. Some of our hardware is assembled in China. I know what's involved importing from outside the EU and selling within it. 4.7% import duty now and double that if we leave.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: @codejunky

                @ Lysenko

                I can only assume the company you work for didnt exist before the EU and produces something nobody else would want? Thats fine if so but that doesnt apply to all or most. And the EU is a part of the world but only a part of. As a part of the world it is in constant crisis and serious financial difficulty. It has a severe problem with cohesion and most importantly we have no idea what the EU will end up as. if your business is so sensitive to the EU and their aggression then you may want to be concerned if we tie ourselves to the sinking ship.

                Trading with the whole world is bound to be worth more. The banks are not going to abandon the country with the facility to support them for a monolith that threatens them and lack of economic management.

                1. Lysenko

                  Re: @codejunky

                  I can only assume the company you work for didnt exist before the EU and produces something nobody else would want?

                  Correct, it didn't exist before the EU. What we produce has demand pretty much anywhere in the G20, but it's an expensive pain in the ass dealing outside the EU. We've had stuff held up in Brazilian and Mexican customs for months on end. USA and Japan we don't sell to at all (though we've been asked to) because of red tape and incompatible regulations.

                  And the EU is a part of the world but only a part of.

                  The EU is the biggest economy in the world and has over half a billion people. Sure, that's only a part of the world ... but it's a big part.

                  Where the EU ends up is a political matter and I doubt it will be clarified in our lifetimes. My own best guess is a full blown federation with Westminster reduced to the same sort of power as Holyrood (by about 2100 or so).

                  Being in the EU doesn't prevent us trading with the world, so being out of the EU adds nothing. All it does is ensure that all our business has costly overhead as opposed to maybe 30% of it. The EU is essentially one set of rules. Every non-EU country is another set of rules. A vast explosion in rules, tariffs, taxes and bilateral treaties just means getting buried under huge steaming piles of extra paperwork, middlemen and legal fees.

                2. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

                  The Shipping News

                  > if your business is so sensitive to the EU and their aggression then you may want to be concerned if we tie ourselves to the sinking ship.

                  I am not sure that a company planning on moving to Scotland/Ireland but leaving the choice for the final countdown is unconcerned about ships sinking. Presumably they make lifeboats and/or life-jackets or even submarines?

                  Having said that the RAF did a nice line in landing on the decks of a submarine after the defeat of Norway, some time ago following a German merger. Do you suppose they could do that again?

                  It's good to be prepared. This time perhaps, with a more conclusive use of take off gear?

                3. Bluenose

                  Re: @codejunky

                  "Trading with the whole world is bound to be worth more." But that is the whole point really in my view. Just because we are in the EU does not mean we cannot trade with the whole world in fact we do that today (have a look at our export figures). So can someone please explain what big of magic occurs when we leave the EU that will mean our trade with the rest of the world will increase? Oh and telling me we can negotiate our own trade agreements won't wash as that can take any were up to 15 years (EU-India Free trade deal as an example) and the UK has little experience in this area as all our trade negotiators currently work for the EU.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: @codejunky

                    @ Bluenose

                    "Oh and telling me we can negotiate our own trade agreements won't wash as that can take any were up to 15 years (EU-India Free trade deal as an example) and the UK has little experience in this area as all our trade negotiators currently work for the EU."

                    The UK managed before. In fact we were well known globally for it. The last I heard the EU negotiates trade for us all and takes forever to do so. All the while not providing any better than we could have already done for ourselves without the membership fee.

                    I dont understand this desire to claim that the country is so beyond hope that we cannot function at all without the EU (obviously ignoring the largest majority of time). And no country can survive outside the EU without being huge, except they do.

                    We were supposed to be doomed when we rejected the euro, except it turns out the other way around. Just as countries were supposed to be better off within the EU, except it is always in crisis.

                4. captain veg Silver badge

                  Re: @codejunky

                  > I can only assume the company you work for didnt exist before the EU

                  Because voting to leave would magically transport Britain back to 1972, obviously. Get out your tie-dies everyone.

                  -A.

                  1. codejunky Silver badge

                    Re: @codejunky

                    @ captain veg

                    "Because voting to leave would magically transport Britain back to 1972, obviously. Get out your tie-dies everyone."

                    That something you dream of? I dont see why you long for that date but the EU is much younger than that. It is amusingly a recent development which is why eurosceptics (a word that fell out of favour when the EU and eurozone started tanking) laugh when people claim it kept historical peace.

            3. Bluenose

              Re: Rubbish. Germany really doesn't need the damage...

              "Ha no. At no point does leaving mean we lose the financial centre which was before we joined and has continued since"

              The UK has always had a finance industry, however it was not a global player prior to the EU. Big Bank really kick started the UK finance industry and the introduction of the Euro supported that even more.

              London currently transacts more in Euros than any other major European financial market because it is in the EU and we can block EU legislation that might damage it. If we leave then Frankfurt can seek changes in the Euro nations that ensure that those Euro transactions will take place there thus undermining London.

        2. Bluenose

          Re: former EU partners less willing to jump to ... to rescue UK economic interests

          What damage to the German car industry? They already sell to most of the world including the US and China whereas the UK industry is focussed on sales in the UK and Europe. The only damage to their industry will be if the UK Govt ups import duties and VAT on foreign produced vehicles.

          The worst that will happen is that they will withdraw investment from their plants in the UK and take up that capacity in mothballed plants in Germany and France and then flog the Minis back to us at the inflated tax price that the UK Govt would be forced to apply in order to protect whatever rump car industry is left in the UK.

      3. Bluenose

        Re: former EU partners less willing to jump to ... to rescue UK economic interests

        As Mr IDS argued on Radio 4 on Friday that Britain's economy as the 5th biggest in the world with a much lower level of unemployment generally and at youth level has been achieved during our membership of the EU becuase the UK has control of its benefits legislation, I think your argument would be better if it said that membership of the EURO nations imposes material ecomomic harm.

        With respect to the EU Data Protection Directive, the legilsation known as the Snoopers Charter needs to be compliant with that Directive from the EU if it is to be passed otherwise the British judges who must apply it will have material issues and may declare it non-compliant with the Human Rights Act and therefore force the government to make necessary changes. This is true even if the vote is Out in June since it will be two years before we leave the EU even from that date and more probably from the date that parliament passes the necessary legislation to repeal the relevant European Act.

        As to whether there is an impact on UK business is debateable. Currently more UK data is probably processed in Eastern Europe than the other way around. IT companies and others have been "near-shoring" IT support and maintanence to the like of Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary for many years. The real impact on the UK will be the VAT impact, the cost of doing business in a market with export controls and the potential risk of countries such as those in Eastern Europe raising taxes on the local branches of IT companies (unlikely but if the economic problems of Europe continue not impossible).

      4. dajames

        Re: former EU partners less willing to jump to ... to rescue UK economic interests

        Often I wonder with friends like these who needs enemies

        Methinks the pertinent aphorism here is: Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

    2. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

      pour encourager les autres

      Byng is best known for failing to relieve a besieged British garrison during the Battle of Minorca at the beginning of the Seven Years' War. Byng had sailed for Minorca at the head of a fleet which, according to his wife were chosen by their poor condition. Despite losing the wind and being underpowered (lacking enough guns) managed to forge an inconclusive engagement with a French fleet off the Minorca coast (which considering the haste his force was assembled was pretty good military management) he returned to Gibraltar to repair his ships. A very, very sensible management decision.

      Byng was subsequently courts-martialled and found guilty of failing to "do his utmost" to prevent Minorca falling to the French. He was sentenced to death and shot by firing squad on 14 March 1757.

      Since the Wilson Government I.e from Edward Heath's time we have suffered a crisis of management each one convened by the loser in charge of the governments and the treasury with the demise of Empire came the rise in the Asian super economies where Japan could produce a reliable car complete with seat-belts and radio which ammenities were still charged as extras even on a British car that was costing the manufacturers £5 each to sell.

      Since the 1960's lack of investment meant British factories were using machinery that had been kept operational since their construction in the early 1940's. The first thing to go was the motorcycle industry next it was the Range Rover both suffered the illogical fate of enormous popularity in the hands of has-been counters. Hasty production on unsuitable machinery meant supply problems resolved by British management and consequently faulty parts waiting shipments to their agents.

      The result being that the Italians could find customers here for cars that were made of metal that turned to soup, overnight. Car sales went like this:

      British car > Italian or second hand anything car > Japanese car. British management responded by taking a world class leader like Triumph and turning out Morris Marinas, through a subtle government's encourageous action of amalgamation. Then Rolls Royce went bump after its engines were fed too many frozen dinners. It responded to Thatcherist refusal to support lame ducks by selling the car plant to Germany and the RB211 Jet Engine licenses to Prat and Witlessbutlesstoooopidthanus.

      Since then the only piracy that goes on these days is ostensibly against British and American ships (which are not actually British or American) and the majority of British investments are offshore. When calculating the annual budget it doesn't matter why all you are left with in the case of for example the largest pottery maker in Europe at the time is one or two hand crafted artist's collector's piecemakers.

      All you are left with in the once mighty Birmingham engineering factories are one or two plants not exactly in Birmingham making cars for India, China and Japan with one (at one time) making cars for France.

      Let us by all means have a discussion on the merits of leaving or staying but let us start the discussion by killing all the bean counters. If we could start by removing every merchant Banker to some offshore dungeon modelled on Gunsandammo Bay we might have a sensible one.

      Personally I can see the point of lining them up (ALL of the bastards) on the foredeck of a brig and increasing their lead content substantially. But.... who you gonna call?

      Guy Fawkes?

      On 31 January, Fawkes fell from the scaffold where he was to be hanged and broke his neck, thus avoiding the agony of the mutilation that followed for the next 10 months giving vent to the essay produced by King James on the evils of smoking.

      Hence the term "death masque".

      (Subtle use of "no icon" indicative of the disgrace of not having THE APPROPRIATE ONE for Britain's most famous terrrst! COME ON EL REG pull your finger out!)

  2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    Nice that someone else realized it

    In a Brexit scenario 95% of the legislation governing how a British subject does business in/on the continent is null and void, resulting in fallback to pre-Eu conventions. At the very least - massive pain in the a**e, usually massive extra cost too. Even if Brexit somehow makes British industry more competitive (I doubt that), the extra costs put the overall balance in the red straight away.

    Data protection is only the tip of the iceberg and it is a bloody big iceberg indeed.

    Even your driving license becomes void in the Eu - it is falback to 1949 International Driving License convention and having to have that abominable piece of paper re-issued every year by a UK post office in the UK (until validity is re-negotiated with every country involved).

    British vehicle insurance on the continent (both private and commercial) is null and void - governing legislation are the EEA insurance harmonization directives, so you are back to car green cards and the extortionate costs of underwriting by target country. So yeah... make British manufacturing great again. Jolly good idea, did you realize that it is automatically uncompetitive because of costs of shipment?

    Rights to own certain type of properties (on agricultural land) in half of Europe for British subjects are null and void - it is a privilege reserved to local and Eu subjects (enshrined in constitution in some countries). So a British subject will have to register a local limited company _AND_ have sufficient annual turnover through it for it not to be closed by the local tax office. That limited company also has _NO_ double-taxation treaties in force to shield it as all governing legislation on that is Eu level. Leaving individuals and villas aside (they are just lined up for mandatory purchase) - want to ship goods to Europe, think 10 times on how and where exactly establish a distribution center if you do not want an "interesting" bill.

    Compared to all of these the inability to handle any data you need in order to sell to Eu customers (even a warranty registration database) is only the icing on the cake and a rather thin one too.

    1. nematoad
      Unhappy

      Re: Nice that someone else realized it

      Yes, I agree with you on all points. These are consequences that pose a real threat to the well-being of the UK.

      The trouble here is that you are preaching to the converted. The real threat is that the readers of the Express, Sun and the Daily Wail have no idea what's going to hit us if they vote as directed by the vested interests running these shit-sheets.

      It's up to the rest of us to try and make sure that the risks in leaving the EU are plainly spelled out. It's going to be a hard job as we have a lot of money and resources stacked against us but if we don't try than all of the things you describe will happen.

      1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        Re: Nice that someone else realized it

        The trouble here is that you are preaching to the converted

        Not quite. Even the converted (as shown by previous discussions on El-Reg) have not quite thought all of these through. We cannot really blame them for that as we have lived with EU and EEA for so long, we have forgotten what does it mean to be outside it.

        When I first moved to the UK 15+ years ago, the country I was moving from was still outside the EU. So I know _FIRST_ hand what is required - the whole drivers license, insurance, taxation, etc rigmarole. I could not buy my first house in the UK as the mortgage provider (hello xenophobic a***holes from RBS) declined to give me a mortgage because I was at a time non-Eu foreign scum. Thankfully, I found a less xenophobic mortgage and insurance provider after that (still charged me extra, but at least I got what I needed).

        I also know how much of that changed after the country joined the Eu and I have the basis for comparison of what legislation applies in either case.

        All of that is awaiting. Best scenario - massive costs and hassle to everyone who is out. Worst scenario - you outright cannot do business with Eu (that will be the case for some stuff).

        Been there, have that T-shirt, do no want to have it again (hence, this is why I keep my Eu passport valid in addition to the UK one).

        Compared to all of that, data protection is just that - some spice to make things interesting and interesting they shall become as do we like it or not, the Daily Beobachter and Scum readers are a majority. They will vote Out.

      2. SundogUK Silver badge

        Re: Nice that someone else realized it

        "It's up to the rest of us to try and make sure that the risks in leaving the EU are plainly spelled out"

        The risks are negligible - this is just FUD.

        1. KeithR

          Re: Nice that someone else realized it

          "The risks are negligible - this is just FUD"

          Oi - Boris Johnson - either evidence your claims, or SFTU.

      3. Yugguy

        Re: Nice that someone else realized it

        Oh do please fuck off with this "all those who want an exit read the daily mail" utter bollocks.

        1. Sir Runcible Spoon
          Meh

          Re: Nice that someone else realized it

          I suppose the in/out question comes down to what is most important to you as an individual.

          By all means we should consider the cost and all implications for staying/leaving and base our decisions on balancing out many conflicting judgements.

          For example, the TTIP is really good reason to get out as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of whether it is actually selling us all out to the multi-nationals, the way in which the treaty has been composed makes it sound like it came straight out of a Bond movie plot.

          If there is one thing that means a *lot* to you, it can outweigh all the other arguments (however valid and correct they might be) that argue against that one thing.

          Am I prepared for the cost of standing up for my principles? Probably not, but it won't stop me because I feel I will be doing the right thing.

          I'm only one vote though, so don't panic.

          1. Warm Braw

            Re: Nice that someone else realized it

            TTIP is really good reason to get out

            You do realise that there's a lot of resistance to TTIP in the European Parliament, but that it's precisely the kind of free-wheeling business-friendly deal that the outists are hoping to strike with world+dog?

          2. Jess

            Re: the TTIP is really good reason to get out

            If would be preferable to be outside the TTIP. However leaving the EU is likely to guarantee we will sign up for something similar.

            Our government is a big fan of it, and Boris has talked about signing up without the rest of Europe. (No-one to trade with otherwise if we get out.)

            The rest of the EU is looking like it may reject the idea anyway.

            The TTIP is a good argument to stay in.

            If we get out, the likelihood is that we will be signed up for something like it, so we can trade with the US and the rest of the EU will reject it, once its biggest cheerleaders are no longer members.

          3. Lysenko

            For example, the TTIP is really good reason to get out as far as I'm concerned.

            What? Dave is one of TTIP's biggest fans! He'll sign the thing (or an equivalent) in a heartbeat. The only possible chance of watering down TTIP is if the biggest economy on Earth argues for it. Give Dave a free hand and you're guaranteed full tar with no filter TTIP.

            1. Adrian 4

              Re: For example, the TTIP is really good reason to get out as far as I'm concerned.

              And that's just one example of where the EU is protecting us from our halfwit politicians. It might get things wrong occasionally but nowhere near as often, or as intentionally, as our own bought-and-paid-for mob.

        2. Lysenko

          all those who want an exit read the daily mail...

          You're right. Some read the Express or the Sun and those with a predilection for fruity young ladies celebrating A-Level results probably buy the occasional copy of the Telegraph.

        3. KeithR

          Re: Nice that someone else realized it

          ""all those who want an exit read the daily mail" "

          You're right - many "Outers" can't read at all.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Nice that someone else realized it

            many "Outers" can't read at all.?

            Gosh that really makes me want to stay!

            maybe so, but some still retain the power of independent thought..

      4. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Nice that someone else realized it

        "It's up to the rest of us to try and make sure that the risks in leaving the EU are plainly spelled out"

        The risks are simple, whatever we vote for is what we get. If we vote for bad management that is what we get, if we vote for good that is what we get. Of course there are many ways to take the country and many ways for things to go bad or good, but we will be the deciding factor.

        Those who want to be in demand to know what will happen if we leave. What will happen is what we elect. And that seems to scare people so much that they think the fire is better than the frying pan. If we need change for the better then vote for it. If you hate the tories/labour but keep voting for them then nobody can save you.

    2. kmac499

      Re: Nice that someone else realized it

      Exactly the sort of repercussions that should be loudly raised in public.

      The only real future business opportunity I can see is in helping a large number of the two million or so Brits in europe come back. A fair proportion of them are going to be disenfranchised in the referendum so they are going to make for a very interesting voting bloc in future UK elections

      .

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Nice that someone else realized it

        I'm not coming back! I'll be staying in Germany. Luckily married to a German woman and have been here long enough to apply for citizenship.

        I don't want to do it, but I may be forced to...

        1. ZSn

          Re: Nice that someone else realized it

          @ big_D

          Or if you're like 10% of the English and have one Irish grandparent you can get an Irish passport. Easier and cheaper than getting a German one (even if you are married to a German). Talking to the Irish consulate about this it seems that there is a noticeable uptick in applications recently from British citizens enquiring about how to get one. Their sense of humour is also closer to the British one (though the people in Niedersachsen are particularly humourless - moin moin).

          1. big_D Silver badge

            Re: Nice that someone else realized it

            No Irish in the last 4 or 5 generations. I think there was some German in there, back at the end of the 19th Century.

        2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: Nice that someone else realized it

          I'm not coming back! I'll be staying in Germany. Luckily married to a German woman and have been here long enough to apply for citizenship.

          You can have both: I do.

    3. SundogUK Silver badge

      Re: Nice that someone else realized it

      "In a Brexit scenario 95% of the legislation governing how a British subject does business in/on the continent is null and void"

      Bullshit.

      The legislation was still all passed by the UK parliament and will remain valid until such time as the UK parliament decides to get rid of it.

      1. Mephistro
        Facepalm

        Re: Nice that someone else realized it (@ SundogUK)

        "The legislation was still all passed by the UK parliament and will remain valid until such time as the UK parliament decides to get rid of it."

        Yeah! The EU will be glad to let the UK parliament decide how UK citizens do business in Europe, eh?

        Please, Mr. SundogUK, stop muddling the waters. These aren't The Sun's forums.

      2. Bluenose

        Re: Nice that someone else realized it

        Sorry, I thought being in the EU meant that all our legislation was written and enforced by them and that Parliament has no power?:

        However, the truth is that the legislation passed by the UK Parliament will only apply in the UK and there is no obligation on the EU countries to accept or acknowledge such legislation making it a one sided relationship and thus potentially creating an issue whereby the UK continues to comply with EU laws but gets shafted by the EU which doesn't see the need to work in the same way.

        The other issue is that such UK legislation is predicatd on membership of the EU and free access to the market. As is clear we won't have that access or membership and therefore quite a bit of our legilstation is frustrated thus null and void.

    4. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Nice that someone else realized it

      "British vehicle insurance on the continent (both private and commercial) is null and void - governing legislation are the EEA insurance harmonization directives, "

      I was under the impression that the referendum was purely about membership of the EU. Are you saying our membership of all the other European institutions such as the EEA (common market) and ECHR etc are also up for grabs?

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is this linked?

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/10/frank_jennings_data_protection/

    1. Dan 55 Silver badge

      And this...

      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/23/leave_or_stay_in_the_referendum_gdpr_has_to_be_implemented_by_the_uk_whatever_the_result/

      ... which argues that if the UK finishes off implementing the GDPR, Brexit won't affect it.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

    Our very own Donald Trump. Shudder.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

      YOU might strike lucky and get Corbyn, would anything then matter?

      1. KeithR

        Re: vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

        "YOU might strike lucky and get Corbyn, would anything then matter?"

        Christ! Corbyn over that blond monkey in a suit any day!

    2. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

      "Our very own Donald Trump. Shudder."

      I do get a lot of amusement from comments like this. If we leave we will actually get people voted for by the people of this country, OH NO! The alternative is a system we have no vote over and is guaranteed by virtue of the position and time to get someone people hate and despise.

      After so much fighting throughout history for democracy it is concerning to see people arguing for its demise.

      1. Lysenko

        If we leave we will actually get people voted for by the people of this country...

        You seriously think that Bliar and "Call me Dave" got into power because French and German ex-pats skewed the vote?! We already get the people the UK electorate vote for and consequently have to rely on the ECJ and ECHR to stop Sturmbannführer May reinventing the Stasi.

        1. Vimes

          Re: If we leave we will actually get people voted for by the people of this country...

          The ECHR isn't part of the EU (neither the court nor the convention). Even if we leave the EU we will still be subject to it.

          For example Russia is in theory subject to the ECHR and they are supposed to abide by it (until they passed laws saying 'only when we want to') but I'm fairly sure that they never joined the EU.

          If memory serves the government won't be able to do anything about the ECHR without tearing up the Good Friday Agreement amongst other things, which seems unlikely even for the current bunch in power. It would seem that some of those in the civil service have recognised this: witness for example how proposed laws regarding a British Bill of Rights seem to have died a quiet death.

          1. Lysenko

            The ECHR isn't part of the EU..

            I know. It is a Council of Europe creation and the UK is not subject to it, it is a party to it[1] (and has been since 1951). However the convention was not incorporated into British law until 1998 via the Human Rights Act which is also a major bug bear to the UKIPpers, Borisites and fellow travelers.

            The point is that virtually every serious obstacle to May's "total surveillance society" comes from "Europe" in some form or another. In this case it was the EU/ECJ, in others it has been the HRA/ECtHR. If you're against "European Meddling" (in its broadest sense) then you're in favour of giving Mrs. May and Dave a free hand. No thanks.

            [1] This matters because until 1998 the ECHR had no actual power in the UK. The most the CoE can do is suspend a country - and for that you have to behave like Belarus. Even Turkey stays in despite government seizures of newspapers and jailing journalists for "insulting Turkishness". Repeal the HRA and we're back to 1951.

            1. Vimes

              Re: The ECHR isn't part of the EU..

              The point is that virtually every serious obstacle to May's "total surveillance society" comes from "Europe" in some form or another.

              Even Theresa May has come out in support of staying within the EU, which says a lot in itself IMO.

              As I think I previously mentioned one way to get rid of most - but not all - obstacles to keeping the IP bill *and* data sharing with the rest of the EU would be to drag the EU down to our level. Remember that that the Schrems ruling made no mention of specific levels of protection, but that it had to be equivalent to the protection found in Europe.

              Minimise those standards and you minimise many of the obstacles standing in the way of the deployment of the IP bill (possibly even eradicate them if taken far enough). Now look at how the older Data Retention Directive was drawn up: it came into being during the UK's presidency of the EU and was drafted with help from our own Home Office. Some countries - notably France - are already moving in the same direction as the UK without any real prompting from the UK or any other country.

              The only way we have of keeping both the IP bill *and* any semblance of data sharing with the rest of the EU is if the UK keeps some form of influence in Europe so it can shape how it develops. That won't happen if we leave the EU (not that I'm in favour of the IP bill of course, but it does help potentially explain why May has changed her mind on Europe).

              In general terms I think the UK is better off inside the EU. Whether the EU is better off with us as a member state is a different matter entirely given the poisonous influence we seem to have as a country on proceedings at the European level.

      2. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

        Re: vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

        > After so much fighting throughout history for democracy

        You really think anything will change? (Leaving aside the question of whether we are actually a democracy).

        All that will happen is that the EU rules that people moan about will get replaced by rules made by Civil Servants and pushed through by their puppets..

        As an example I present the Snoopers Charter. Does anyone really think Theresa May generated it?

        1. KeithR

          Re: vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

          "by rules made by Civil Servants and pushed through by their puppets.."

          Bullshit.

          Hysterical, ignorant, constitutionally IMPOSSIBLE bullshit.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

        interesting to see how much IT is funded by the public sector and big corporates

        If you want to ban Christmas, give turkeys the vote

    3. kmac499

      Re: vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

      With Jacob Rees-Mogg as Foreign Secretary. (BTW foreign will mean outside the M25)

    4. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: vote for Brexit and get Boris as PM

      "Our very own Donald Trump. Shudder."

      Trump and Boris. Separated at birth?

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why is it that we would have to leave the EU for the IPB to be shown as incompatible with the EU?

    Surely it is incompatible either way.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I think the situation goes something like:

      Stay in EU: IPB is struck down by EU courts.

      Leave EU: IPB goes into force, UK businesses struck down by EU rules.

  6. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge
    Holmes

    Bargaining chip...

    If leaving the EU really is the economic disaster it's painted as, seems like a smart electorate would insist gov.uk drop the IPB in exchange for voting to stay in the EU. Plus we see who's really in charge - the economists or the data fetishists. Though I think we already know the truth on that one.

    Drop it now - not after the vote - with legislation guaranteeing it's putrid corpse can never go all Walking Dead on us, and we'll vote IN. UK economy is saved.

    Up to the individual whether or not they want their MP to push for tighter border controls, immigration restrictions, benefits restrictions, or whatever their particular ire is, at the same time. The point is people have to contact their MP and make their feelings known. MPs job is to represent his/her constituents, so make them do it.

    Of course that requires a smart electorate and not a bunch of Daily Mail readers...

    One problem at a time I guess.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This referendum will be decided by soundbite politics and racism.

    1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

      Of course. These things always are. You weren't seriously expecting a reasoned debate and rational decision making processes, were you?

      The racists seem to vastly outnumber those able to actually think stuff through. They don't give a shit about the economy, it's all about them immigrants. If they can be arsed to get off the couch and vote, Brexit seems a given.

      1. Yugguy

        You do realise that a dislike of the European UNION does NOT, I repeat NOT, again, NOT, it does NOT, NOT at all, equal a dislike of European people, cultures or countries.

        1. Jess

          Re: NOT at all, equal a dislike of European people, cultures

          No, just a dislike of having them able to live next door.

          1. Yugguy

            Re: NOT at all, equal a dislike of European people, cultures

            No, no, and again no.

        2. CCCP

          @ Yogguy

          How do you think human relations work, either micro or macro? If you tell someone to eff off, they're not going to like you for a good while.

          Your comment reveals that you think English culture is not part of European people or cultures. Says it all really. You may want to look at history and see how blended it all really is.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        of course the racists are the 'inners...'

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      This referendum will be decided by soundbite politics and racism.

      How true!

      Add to that: hair cuts, smart suits and Theresa May's footwear.

  8. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

    bulk data collection ... "limited to ... where targeted collection is not possible."

    (Title was too long hence ellipsis')

    And who exactly decides what's not possible?

    Anything is not possible until one can actually be bothered to try...

    So if it's the spooks deciding, and you know it will be, everything will be not possible because they want bulk collection and can't be arsed with all that targeted hassle.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: bulk data collection ... "limited to ... where targeted collection is not possible."

      <quote>

      So if it's the spooks deciding, and you know it will be, everything will be not possible because they want bulk collection and can't be arsed with all that targeted hassle.

      </quote>

      Pray tell, how would you go about identifying the targets from all the data flows, so the spooks can carry out said targeted intercepts?

    2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      But that is the beauty of the wording

      "Sir, an ISIS faction is planning an attack on us !"

      "Oh yeah ? Are you sure ?"

      "Yes sir, we have intercepts that Youssouf Benterrorist is in contact with several other elements for an upcoming action:"

      "And are you sure it is him that is implicated ?"

      "Well, the intercepts . ."

      "But are you sure of the validity of the intercepts ?"

      "Ah, I see. No sir, not 100%"

      "Good man. Go for global collection, then."

      "Right away, sir."

  9. Vimes

    When the ECJ abolished Safe Harbour, large (US) cloud providers quickly began offering guaranteed hosting in the EU, long before Privacy Shield was agreed.

    Which is a nice diversion from the reality that geographic location seems to be irrelevant where US law is concerned. Take Amazon AWS for example: their servers might be in the EU but they're still a US company and locating the servers in the EU in reality does little to protect them.

    1. Mephistro

      @ Vimes

      "...they're still a US company and locating the servers in the EU in reality does little to protect them."

      Except for the fact that the company doing this could be sued before the national and European Courts for sending data to the USA. Saying that these companies would land in hot water would be too mild. Molten tungsten would fit better.

      And sooner than later, some American fuckwjudge would try this trick, and the data collection would be made public. Yeah, what could possibly go wrong?

      1. Vimes

        Re: @ Vimes

        Except for the fact that the company doing this could be sued before the national and European Courts for sending data to the USA

        Except that you'd have to know about the data transfer to be able to even consider taking action, much less get any useful outcome. A lot of the data collection that goes on does so in situations where gagging clauses are often attached to the demands.

        Good luck even finding about any abuse of your data in that sort of situation, much less do anything about it.

        1. Mephistro

          Re: @ Vimes

          "Good luck even finding about any abuse of your data..."

          Two points:

          - My second paragraph refers to the moment some American judge decides that if the ferals can do it, he -the judge- can do it also. Evidence obtained by these means would need to be made public in order to be used in an American court, unless the feds step in and make that evidence a matter of national security, which would also spark lots of publicity for the case, with similar results, i.e. the American company landing in hot water.

          - And the 400 pound gorilla: "Schrems 3" (or 4 or...) where some concerned party takes the issue before an European court, with the quite convincing argument that, being American laws as they are, the American company can't be trusted with Europeans data full stop. Something that by then will be probably entrenched in Law by precedents provided by "Schrems 1 and 2".

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "Which is a nice diversion from the reality that geographic location seems to be irrelevant where US law is concerned."

      A couple of points here. Firstly, US law is undetermined on this and will remain so until the Microsoft NY case gets decided by the US Supreme Court.

      Secondly, Microsoft seems to heave learned from its experience and its new German data centre is being constructed with a more effective legal firebreak than a simple EU subsidiary. Depending on the way they see the first case and challenges to Privacy Figleaf developing other US businesses may adopt the same approach. My guess is that the smart money won't wait to find out. My other guess is that there isn't sufficient smart money so that Privacy Figleaf will provide an excuse to do nothing followed by panic.

  10. a cynic writes...

    For the love of god you lot, never dispense relationship advice...

    Seriously guys. There are positive arguments for staying as part of the EU but I've yet to hear anyone make them. "No Tracy, don't leave. Stay and make a go of it or he'll cut up rough." isn't the winning argument you all seem to think it is. In fact from what I've seen it's flat out counter-productive.

    If you must bring it down to costs and benefits at least go with the believable "we have to negotiate this shit anyway and it's a fuck site easier inside than outside".

    1. KeithR

      Re: For the love of god you lot, never dispense relationship advice...

      "Seriously guys. There are positive arguments for staying as part of the EU but I've yet to hear anyone make them. "No Tracy, don't leave. Stay and make a go of it or he'll cut up rough." isn't the winning argument you all seem to think it is. In fact from what I've seen it's flat out counter-productive."

      And yet it's STILL a more cogent, convincing and compelling argument than ANYTHING the Outers have been able to come up with.

      It's precisely the lack of intelligent counter-argument from that bunch that makes it so easy to conclude that Outer = Sun/Daily Mail reading, UKIP-loving, xenophobe.

      Make the fecking case! At least we KNOW what the Status Quo looks like - the Outers need to prove to us what Brexit fixes.

      But they can't. Even the oaf Boris Johnson's best attempts are along the lines of "might be better, might be worse".

      But HE'S got sweet FA to lose either way, remember...

      1. Bigg Phill

        Re: For the love of god you lot, never dispense relationship advice...

        "At least we KNOW what the Status Quo looks like"

        Absolutely, the EU has in no way changed in the last decade or so and will remain exactly as it is at present for eternity.

        I'm utterly sick of people claiming that remaining in the EU is a static option

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: For the love of god you lot, never dispense relationship advice...

      where's this fuck site then?

      After all this polemic I could do with a wank.

  11. Scott 53

    British Channel?

    Where's that?

    1. Sir Runcible Spoon
      Joke

      Re: British Channel?

      It's where they apply the vaseline.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    We're out!

    Good, I don't want my data coming back reeking of garlic.

  13. All names Taken
    Alien

    Additionality

    I think the main stumbling block is UK grasp on privilege. It is gripped hard with white knuckles and greasy fingers and for good reason. Would you wish to lose your privileges?

    e.g. North Sea Oil (probably the real reason Northerners cannot get independence some seek?)

    While in the UK revenues from NSO were used to clobber part of UK peoples similar revenues were used to fund Norways peoples.

    Rumour has it that everyone (?) in Norway is due over £20k this year as their share of oil revenue profits.

    That will never, ever happen in UK as it presently is as the Brits just don't think or act like that?

    1. DavCrav

      Re: Additionality

      "That will never, ever happen in UK as it presently is as the Brits just don't think or act like that?"

      The population of Norway is around 5m, of the UK over 60m, and their share of North Sea oil was IIRC slightly larger, but at any rate of a similar size. For Norway this is a life changer, for the UK it is a nice to have.

      If we take your figure of £20k this year, everyone in Britain would get about £1500, which is nice, but that is either taken off our tax bill, spent on increased spending, or subsidizes our borrowing. North Sea oil is great for the UK, but it isn't winning the lottery as it is for Norway.

  14. captain veg Silver badge

    Tempted

    On Europe I make Ken Clarke look like a rabid Kipper. And yet, given the chance to really spoil Theresa May's day, well, you'd have to consider voting Brexit, wouldn't you?

    -A.

    1. Jess

      Re: really spoil Theresa May's day

      I don't think a leave vote would really spoil any Tory's day.

      They would get all their former supporters back from the UKIP.

      Odds are Scotland would leave the unions, so that is 58 opposition members gone for one Tory.

      Plus the get to replace all the the nasty socialist EU laws that protect the proletariat from their masters.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How widespread use of Linux

    Could lead to a slaughter of cute kittens.

    Sorry? was this supposed to be a serious article?

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    its probably nothing but....

    ...nothing like a good old debt clock to see how the economy is ticking over....

    http://www.debtclocks.eu/public-debt-and-budget-deficits-comparison-of-the-eu-member-states.html

    http://www.debtclocks.eu/public-debt-and-budget-deficit-of-the-united-kingdom.html

    Public debt to GDP ratio: 87.60026% (not bad in comparison to rest of EU)

    Surplus/Deficit (+/−) to GDP ratio: 4.0742% (giving Spain (99% ratio)/ Denmark (38% ratio) a run for their money)

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