back to article Apple hasn't announced the new iPhone 5SE and pundits already hate it

Apple is likely more than six months away from announcing anything about the next line of iPhones, but that isn't stopping industry analysts from predicting how the rumored handsets could fare in the market. Analyst Richard Windsor of Edison Investment Research says that, if the rumors of a new budget-minded iPhone model are …

  1. Oh Matron!

    Those who can't, analyse....

    So, some points.

    In developing markets, people don't normally have the kind of cash needed to buy the latest and greatest, but still have a desire to own apple devices. Especially true in India, where there's a large dev community.

    Secondly, this 'analyst' should try attending some of Apple's WWDC sessions. Writing applications on iOS for various screen sizes is almost trivial, especially with functions such as auto layout

    1. Aniya
      Pint

      Re: Those who can't, analyse....

      And that is where the resale market comes into play. I think the iPhone 5SE really isn't for "developing" markets, but more for users like myself who just prefer a smaller phone. The iPhone 5S was perfect for me in terms of size. I still feel that the 6S is a little bit on the large (and heavy) end.

      Where I live there are actually many shops that will buy in used iPhones for the purpose of exporting them to developing markets. And these are shops where a mint condition iPhone 5S, still a very good phone, can go as low as USD 200. And this is what Apple can never compete against.

      1. Plymouthian

        Re: Those who can't, analyse....

        I would buy it purely for the form factor. I had a 6S from work and never really gelled with it due to the larger size.

        The fact that it would be a bit cheaper is just a bonus, not really a factor at all. I never used 3D touch anyway.

      2. David Lawton

        Re: Those who can't, analyse....

        Thats how i feel, so i think i will be swapping my iPhone 6 for an iPhone 5SE, i just prefer the 4" phone size wise it feels better in my hand.

      3. captain semtex
        Thumb Up

        Re: Those who can't, analyse....

        "I think the iPhone 5SE really isn't for "developing" markets, but more for users like myself who just prefer a smaller phone."

        Exactly. I used to have an iPhone 6. I hated it. So when I tripped over a log on the beach and bent it (I'm not kidding) I was happy to go to an iPhone 5S.

        I'm now looking for a replacement for my iPhone 5S (IMHO the perfect phone). As long as the iPhone 5SE has the touch sensor and 32GB then I'll buy it.

    2. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Those who can't, analyse....

      >Those who can't, analyse... In developing markets, people don't normally have the kind of cash needed to buy the latest and greatest, but still have a desire to own apple devices.

      They have no cash, so why would Apple court them? Especially when it comes at the cost of cannibalising sales from their high-end, high margin models.

      I agree with you in general though - analysts have a worse track record of predicting Apple's future than Apple do. Probably because Apple employ some expensive analysts themselves, and feed them with expensive-to-acquire data.

    3. David Kelly 2

      Re: Those who can't, analyse....

      Those who can't don't understand not every product has to be a blockbuster to serve its intended purpose.

      1. Gordon 10
        Thumb Up

        Re: Those who can't, analyse....

        Exactly judging the frequency I see them 'in the Wild' the 5c is doing quite nicely amongst those who like the apple ui and walled garden but who either can't or won't justify the price of Aplles latest shiny shiny.

        Expect the new version to have Apple Pay and be possibly be delayed whilst they upgrade its cryptographic module to make it proof against FBI attacks. Assuming of course that the cryptographic hardware for Apple Pay doesn't already do the same job.

  2. djstardust

    Budget .....

    The 5C certainly wasn't. It was a pretty mid spec phone sold at a stupid price.

    Budget means something completely different to Apple compared to their customers.

    I bet the likes of the Honor 7 will be a far better device at half the price.

    1. Gordon 10
      FAIL

      Re: Budget .....

      Hardware better - for sure, just don't forget a significant subset of consumers will pay a premium to be part of Apple's walled garden.

      The value of a phone is measured in much more than its hardware. Especially if it's some shonky build of Android with a dubious upgrade lifetime. CM13 myself but I wouldn't recommend that to anyone but a techie.

    2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Budget .....

      There is an argument that, if Apple's sales of phones ever start to tail off, it should go in search of new markets.

      It is probably well-equipped to do this in a similar way to Nokia managed in the past: produce cheap devices and still sell them at a nice margin. For this to work well without sales of the even higher margin phones being cannibalised the devices must be effectively crippled so that only the most basic things work: phone, messaging, radios, and presumably camera but limited storage. It could be argued that this is more or less what the I-Pod is doing and sales are still impressive for something that feels so obsolete. Maybe the offer could be more attractive with some kind of tailored storage and service subscription: people in the developing economies can't afford much upfront but are great for subscriptions or freemium services as the Chinese market has demonstrated. Think of Facebook's "basics" package only more.

      However, this kind of switch comes with risks: possible damage of the brand (Coca Cola doesn't seem to mind being available to everyone) more complicated supply chain and inventory. And seeing as how easy Apple still finds it to make money at the moment, those risks don't really look acceptable at the moment. But I've no doubt that they've thought about how to get their slice of "the next billion".

  3. Graham Triggs

    It's not meant to be a review

    "Pundit?" It's not a reviewer. Not a magazine, newspaper, nor blogger.

    It's an analyst from an investment research firm. And yes, they are going to look at what a company is likely to announce as a future product. Because they aren't reviewing the product.

    They are assessing the investment value of the company.

    1. Vector

      Re: It's not meant to be a review

      Yeah, here's the FTFY on the headline:

      "Apple hasn't announced the new iPhone 5SE and pundits this guy already hate[s] it"

    2. Gordon 10

      Re: It's not meant to be a review

      They are assessing the investment value of the company.

      Making shizzle up to fool the gullible and justify their existence.

      There fixed that for you.

  4. tin 2

    Funny cos this assumes Apple want a product that appeals to the masses. They don't. They're quite happy having just a massive slice of the high end of the market to themselves.

    The 5E or whatever it's going to get called is just for those people that want a new iPhone without it being frickin massive. Apple's doubtlessly enormous team of market researchers will have told it that the size of the 6 is putting a decently sized chunk of the market off.

    And if it's even a bit cheaper, businesses will buy that model.

    1. James Radley

      Bang on. The size of the 6 & 6plus is pretty off putting for a lot of people - me included. The 5S is just about the right size for one handed use - the 6 is not, and apple are missing a trick with not having a fully featured ( ie. Apple Pay, top quality camera like the 6S ) phone, but in the 'old' 4 inch package.

      My better half, for one, is holding off buying a new phone until after the March announcement just in case Apple do release a '6 minus' phone, rather than getting a 6 now. It's not about the cost - it's about fitting in your pocket.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Maybe you're holding it wrong?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @Holding it wrong

          I managed to break my iPhone6, as I dropped it while using it in single hand mode. Clumsy of me to be sure, but this never happened on any of the previous models (3G and 5) I have owned - and I have big hands.

          The 6 is just too big for a phone IMHO

          1. Tessier-Ashpool

            Re: @Holding it wrong

            The iPhone 6 is a bit slippery to hold and it's not so easy to pick up. I really don't like the curved edges, from a functional point of view. And it's not just me – passing the phone across to someone has seen it almost drop a few times. IMHO the 5S has better ergonomics.

            More innovation needed. Keep the bright shiny look if you like, but use some nano-material on the edges that has an affinity for human fingers.

          2. Frenchie Lad

            Re: @Holding it wrong

            Quite right, I'd prefer the 5 shape & size any time as my main purpose is "calls". A revamped 6 minus with square edges would be great. I've already dropped my 6 a couple of times and found out that in France at least its cheaper to replace screens chez Apple (115 Euros & 1 hr) rather than be fleeced by independents (200 Euros & days [got to source the Apple screen you see]).

            The apps are an occasional bonus nothing more, at least for me but then I have laptops etc. which may not be the case with many fanbois.

            The problem with the 5C is that it was a clear statement of inferiority rather than an optimal solution for callers rather than texters.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I agree they need to keep a 4" phone in the lineup

        But I would have thought they'd do it as a "6S mini". I guess the reason they are basing on the hardware from the 6 instead of the 6S is to meet a lower price point, but there are surely some people who like the smaller phone but want the latest and greatest hardware. Maybe there will be a 'mini' in the 7 lineup this fall....we'll see.

        1. Mark Fenton

          Re: I agree they need to keep a 4" phone in the lineup

          I agree completely. The 5 I have at the moment is pretty much the max size that I want from a phone - for anything else I'll use a tablet or a PC. I could afford an iPhone 6 - budget isn't the issue. Size is. The 6 and all the new Android phones (of any decent spec) are all too big. Decent spec != big.

          Give us lots of memory, decent CPU and battery in a smaller screen. I'd buy a 4S sized one if I could.

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: I agree they need to keep a 4" phone in the lineup

            Yes, 4S is the optimum size for me. I think larger phone bodies allow larger batteries though, and to drive those faster processers for longer the phones need more mAh so a small phone will compromise a short battery life, or a weaker processor.

      3. Michael Leedy

        I agree with James Radley 100% - - I could care less about budget!!

        There is no difference between paying $700 or $800 for a phone. They're both expensive, so who cares about price. What I want is an EQUAL TOO version of THE BEST >> in a smaller chassis!!!

        Honestly, I was furious when Apple discontinued the 5s 'size'... it made them just like everyone else.

        In fact, the only anchor that keeps me holding an iPhone today, is iTunes, cuz switching out of that is a whole different set of messes that I don't have time for.

        Long Story Short:

        a) When people told me that I'd get used to the 6s, I took their word, but it's been 7 months and I still hate it. It's too big (and no, I'm not on that 'Plus' thing).

        b) If the preverbal 'iPhone 5se' costs the same as an iPhone 6s (or iPhone 7, for that matter).

        c) I don't want a lesser/cheaper phone, what I want is a phone that I can comfortably hold and maneuver in hand with no fear of dropping.

    2. JLV

      >They don't. They're quite happy having just a massive slice of the high end of the market to themselves.

      Actually, it's pretty amazing how many people who, from their job, don't seem to be rolling in the $$$$ do have $800+ phones. I guess that is what bling & selfie culture, combined with the costs being all safely swept under the rug by a nice long contract does for you. And not just Apple, all the flagships aside from MS seem to think that's the entry price.

      If Apple brought back a <= $700 phone I might consider it. Otherwise... it's just a phone.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Fingers... mouth... a bit whalesong and some thin air

    Well, that "prediction" is sucked out of a finger all right. Or thin air. Or god knows what (whatever analists suck on while getting their whalesong fix).

  6. Faceless Man

    People still don't seem to get it

    Everyone thought the 5C was supposed to be a budget phone, and complained that Apple would fail when it turned out it wasn't. while ignoring the fact that it did exactly what it was meant to do: replace the 5 in the line up because of manufacturing issues.

    The 5SE isn't meant to be a budget phone, it's meant to, again, replace an earlier model (this time the 5S - the clue is in the name) with a model capable of Apple Pay, and to keep a 4" phone in the line up. I predict they will sell at least as many of them as they would normally expect to of the phone in that slot. (They may sell more due to the people who have held off due to the size of the 6 series.)

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't know if it's just me.

    But Since the 6 and 6S were launched I've seen more 5Cs than 6's while I've been out and about.

    1. d3vy

      Re: I don't know if it's just me.

      £100 second hand.

      Can't argue with that, bought myself one as a work phone.

  8. Craig 2

    Oooooh, I better take note because these pundits are always right on the mark.... /sarcasm

  9. Rainer

    The 5C was different

    The 5 and 5S were the same size but faster.

    I'd like a 4S-size phone but newer specs than 2011.

    Unlikely to happen, but a 5S-sized phone with specs from last year would be nice.

    I don't live on my phone. My commute is 20 minutes, 30 by bike. I don't need to watch tv-shows on my phone.

    I have a handful of apps that I like and use and that start to get really slow.

    1. cambsukguy

      Re: The 5C was different

      Apps shouldn't slow down just because your phone is older.

      The processor really does go at about the same speed.

      The battery will be shitty to be sure but the volts should be fine.

      My phone was old before it upgraded to Win10 and its speed was not the issue - although bits of it are slow now, too much debug I suppose since it is a beta still.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: The 5C was different

        I'm making no comment on Apple or Android here, and I'm mentioning my 4.7" Sony Xperia Z3 Compact purely in relation to the ergonomics of screen and phone size. The vendor and OS are irrelevant for this post. Okay:

        I choose it because I didn't want a 5"+ phone. My job can be active, so a large flat slab in my pocket is uncomfortable (and probably not good for a larger phone, bending moments being what they are).

        Holding the phone in my right hand hand, my thumb can reach 80% of the screen easily, and 100% at a slight stretch. Reaching the top left corner of a larger phone strains my hand, and compromises my grip of the handset.

        Now, if my lifestyle was different (perhaps if I spent more time on public transport, or if I decided that bum bags or utility belts became me) or my hands were bigger, or my fingers fatter, or my eyesight poorer, I might consider a 5" phone. They are better for looking at images, definitely.

        Summery: Choice is good.

        Observation: Playing cards are a size that is easy to hold in the hand. Postcards are of a size that is easy to look at.

        1. David Paul Morgan
          Happy

          Re: The 5C was different

          I agree. the Z1/Z3 compact screen size is 'right' for me.

          I had to go back to using my HTC Desire 3.7in screen when between handsets and it was way too small (or I'm getting older as I need my reading glasses to view all the screens these days!)

  10. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

    Hate

    is such a strong word.

  11. The_Equalizer

    Got a 6S but would like a smaller footprint with the same specs.

    Been seeing lots of students and young 'uns with the S, seemed everyone had a Samsung last year.

    ApplePay works well for me and can see a few (particularly the aforementioned students) signing up for that.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cook said...

    Tim Cook said Apple would never do a budget iPhone. When you buy an iPhone, you're not just buying the hardware, you're buying into the whole gated ecosystem.

    What Microsoft and everyone else don't seem to grasp is, these devices while expensive, pay for themselves hand over fist, if you're running any type of business. Its sad reflection in some ways, but seeing an iPhone in your hand, when your are making that important call as part of a business transaction, is now a sign of trust/competence.

    Do the same with a Nokia Lumia 640, people notice and sadly, judge you by the choice of your phone.

    Go into any boardroom, you won't see a Windows Phone anywhere, they are all using Apple. It matters.

    Its a shallow world, but that's what we have. At Management level the cost of the actual iPhone is immaterial.

    Hence - Windows Mobile is dead, it has no traction at level where all the profits are made.

    1. Frenchie Lad

      Re: Cook said...

      Cook is like all politicians - ultra pragmatic. If it has a chance to make money then let's go. Look at the Apple TV which admittedly wasn't Cook who said that it was only a hobby but he's part of the same approach.

      1. Dave 126 Silver badge

        Re: Cook said...

        Absolutely. However, Apple are in position to think medium term (their back aren't against the wall, financially), so if faced with a choice between making shedloads of money on the medium term or a bit of money short term, will likely choose the former.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Test

    Test message from my iPhone. Pls ignore.

    1. Pliny the Whiner

      Re: Test

      "Test"? That ain't no fucking test. THIS is a test:

      If a man says something in the forest and there are no women around to hear him, is he still wrong?

      THAT'S a test.

  14. John Robson Silver badge

    Shall I be an analyst for the day?

    Then I can tell Apple what *I* want.

    Since I use a tablet for things that need a larger screen I don't care about screen size or apps.

    I care about battery life, making calls, and some SMS (iMessage relaying preferred).

    The other requirement I have is that my contacts get synced onto the phone for use in aforementioned calls...

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: Shall I be an analyst for the day?

      Yeah, I can imagine some people would be happy with a small iPhone 4 sized phone in their pocket, in conjunction with an iPad Mini in their glovebox, bag or briefcase. So Apple's decision to not offer a smaller, up-to-date iPhone did seem a bit odd.

      That said, they have access to far better market research than I do, and their earnings appear to vindicate them.

      1. John Robson Silver badge

        Re: Shall I be an analyst for the day?

        "That said, they have access to far better market research than I do, and their earnings appear to vindicate them."

        They at least say that the choices they are making aren't disastrous. But we can't tell if they might be better still with a range of device formats.

        I have a broken 4S - bought from fleabay - simply acting as an SMS/iMessage gateway because they couldn't be bothered to support SMS in the SIM equipped iPad (and I prefer to use the iPad for SMS than my phone)

        I suppose that makes it a *good* decision on their part...

        The 4S won't see upgrades, but since it does absolutely nothing other than act as an SMS relay (with a prepay SIM) I'm not fussed.

        If they ever make an iPhone that I am vaguely interested in then they are likely to get another sale - but the current range don't cater to what I want in a phone - at all...

        I can't imagine that I'm the only person who has similar requirements/desires - I'm happy to be niche/unusual/odd, but I doubt I'm unique... (I'm not rich enough to be eccentric).

    2. werdsmith Silver badge

      Re: Shall I be an analyst for the day?

      Real useful things to improve on a phone for my needs:

      1. Battery Life

      2. Sunlight readability

      3. Ability to withstand impact, dropped from ear height to concrete.

      4. Sensitivity and selectivity - ability to perform well in fringe signal/coverage areas.

      5. Theft deterrents.

      Things that my phones don't need:

      1. More pixel density / higher resolution/

      2. Larger screen size

      Unfortunately those last two is what seems to be offered.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Steve Jobs and his Levi's

        I can just see Steve Jobs trying to pull an iPhone 6 Plus out of his front pocket of his Levi's and that pissed off expression on his face. He's not someone that would have converted to having it half showing out of his back pocket. 5-5.1" Screen size with a wafer thin edge bezel, its about the max for these 40-50 something execs still wearing their Levi's.

  15. GarethJ
    Facepalm

    The problem with Analyists

    Is that they can spout any rubbish and when the time comes for the product launch and they are found out to be talking bollocks, they inevitably come out with some other crap to justify their previous remark, such as that the market has changed.

    They are all a bunch of overpaid, useless Berks.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: The problem with Analyists

      >They are all a bunch of overpaid, useless Berks.

      I can imagine that there are some very competent ones, but employed by [Apple and whoever] and so have no motive to shoot their mouths off.

  16. David Nash Silver badge

    I don't get all this "too big" stuff.

    My 5.5" Android fits nicely in my pockets (jeans or smart trousers) and although I admit my hands are on the large side it's not too hard to reach across with the thumb or use 2 hands when necessary. I see plenty of people texting with 2 hands.

    I would rather have a large phone with a useful screen area than to buy and carry around a tablet as well as a phone.

    Ah well each to their own I suppose but my theory is that many iPhone owners have just decided that small=natural because the iPhones were stuck in that niche for so long.

    1. Caustic tWit

      I understand "smart TV," but what are "smart trousers." The mind boggles.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Analyst announce budget handset fail six months in advance

    That has to be the fastest anti Apple fud in the business. Not out for six monthis and already it's a failure.

  18. sleepy planet

    iPhone 5se

    I don't care if the iPhone 5se is cheap or how cheap it is. I prefer the 4" display and smaller form factor quite a bit over larger phones (I have an iPhone 6). Oh, and by the way, the iPhone 5c wasn't a sales disaster at all - it just didn't meet expectations of the analysts (are analysts ALWAYS pie in the sky people? Do they EVER have realistic expectations?) but did sell pretty well. I don't think the right thing to do think is that it's a cheap phone - it'll be an Apple iPhone and will perhaps sell for the same price as the iPhone 5s (which still sells well). It'll be a quality phone and gives Apple a good lineup of mini, midi, and maxi iPhones. I'm really looking forward to it.

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