back to article SAP’s Byzantine licensing leaves its customers feeling exposed

SAP’s complex and “opaque” licensing conditions means the majority of its users think they are exposed to “incalculable” financial risks when third parties dip into their systems. A survey of German SAP user group members by SAM specialist SecurIntegration showed that over half thought they were “possibly” or “very probably” …

  1. SImon Hobson Bronze badge

    > ... complex and “opaque” licensing conditions ...

    You've just described pretty well any software licence from any major vendor. It's not in the vendor's interest to make licensing easy - they'd rather it be difficult so the user either a) buys stuff they don't need, or b) doesn't buy something they do need and so are doubly hit with penalties as well.

    Perhaps there should be a rule that if the account executive can't explain everything without referring to notes then it's not simple enough !

    1. MyffyW Silver badge

      An Imperial Message - with apologies to Herr K

      The software vendor—so they say—has sent a message, directly from his death bed, to you alone, his pathetic customer, a tiny shadow which has taken refuge at the furthest distance from the imperial sun. He ordered the herald to kneel down beside his bed and whispered the message in his ear. He thought it was so important that he had the herald speak it back to him. He confirmed the accuracy of verbal message by nodding his head. And in front of the entire crowd of those witnessing his death—all the obstructing walls have been broken down, and all the great ones of his empire are standing in a circle on the broad and high soaring flights of stairs—in front of all of them he dispatched his herald. The messenger started off at once, a powerful, tireless man. Sticking one arm out and then another, he makes his way through the crowd. If he runs into resistance, he points to his breast where there is a sign of the sun. So he moves forwards easily, unlike anyone else. But the crowd is so huge; its dwelling places are infinite. If there were an open field, how he would fly along, and soon you would hear the marvellous pounding of his fist on your door. But instead of that, how futile are all his efforts. He is still forcing his way through the private rooms of the innermost palace. Never will he win his way through. And if he did manage that, nothing would have been achieved. He would have to fight his way down the steps, and, if he managed to do that, nothing would have been achieved. He would have to stride through the courtyards, and after the courtyards through the second palace encircling the first, and, then again, through stairs and courtyards, and then, once again, a palace, and so on for thousands of years. And if he finally burst through the outermost door—but that can never, never happen—the royal capital city, the centre of the world, is still there in front of him, piled high and full of sediment. No one pushes his way through here, certainly not someone with a message from a dead man. But you sit at your window and dream of that message when evening comes.

      1. theModge

        Re: An Imperial Message - with apologies to Herr K

        AmanfromMars? is that you?

        1. MyffyW Silver badge

          Re: An Imperial Message - with apologies to Herr K

          Well obviously I'm flattered by such comparisons, but no. Just bored and a little bit tangential on a Friday afternoon.

      2. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

        Re: An Imperial Message - with apologies to Herr K

        Well, it beats waking up as an insect on any day.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Don't forget Oracle!

    Oracle licensing is just as bad. I needed (not wanted, needed) an Enterprise license for Oracle, circa 22,000 users.

    We asked the Oracle rep to come in and explain the licensing for our four CPU Sun Server with two CPU E series warm standby server, we 'suggested' he bring a specialist and a laptop. This was before everybody had laptops so circa 20 years ago, so nothing has changed.

    Once in my office, we asked him to work out the licensing for us, we said we were very happy to provide hime ANY information he needed for the licensing calculation and as much coffee as he wanted BUT he wasn't to leave until we had sorted it all out. We were very clear we wanted to be 100% covered with no issues.

    After an hour or so, he gave up, agreed he couldn't work it out, neither could his tech specialist and simple said "How much do you think you should pay?". We agreed a sum around 1/3 of what it could have been, shook hands and to be fair to Oracle (not a phrase you hear me say very often), they stuck with the agreement for a few more years until I left.

    Since then my view is that licensing agreements are simply an offer to negotiate and have worked on that basis with virtually no pushback from other major vendors. You also need to know their sales cycles and the best time of year.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Don't forget Oracle!

      Wonder whether the guy kept his job!

    2. MyffyW Silver badge

      Re: Don't forget Oracle!

      As an old IT director once said to me - "there's always a deal to be done"

      Mind you, he was applying lipstick at the time.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Don't forget Oracle!

        "Mind you, he was applying lipstick at the time."

        To whom? Or what?

    3. DennisFaucher

      Re: Don't forget Oracle!

      Perfect advice. Licensing costs many times are determined by the Oracle Account Executive. The AE would rather close a license renewal at a lower price than not close a deal.

  3. The Quiet One

    PowerBuilder.....

    Anyone who has ever tried to License SAP PowerBuilder will know the pain all too well. It is easily the most backward, belligerent software I have ever had the misfortune to come across. Woe Betide you if you want to install it on a VM accessed by RDP, because then you will need to install the hideous and unnecessarily convoluted "local license server".

    if you get to this stage, you might want to consider murdering the user to remove the requirement for this app entirely..

    1. Lysenko

      Re: PowerBuilder.....

      That thing still exists?! I thought VB and Delphi killed it off around the turn of the century. You'll be telling me DataEase is still in business next ;)

    2. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

      Re: PowerBuilder.....

      It's always the quiet ones that someday embark on a killing spree, isn't it?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: PowerBuilder.....

      Wait, people still *use* Sybase Powerbuilder?? (bought by SAP a few years ago, along with Sybase's database product suite)

      In the 18-ish years I've been working with Sybase, I've only ever seen one Powerbuilder application.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Anti-competitive by design

    Most enterprise licence agreements are anti-competitive by design but most companies are too scared to take them to the courts. Would be the sort of thing that European Commission would be good at.

    Some actual competition would also be good but Oracle, SAP, et al. seem to buy anything up as soon as it gets big enough. Still, the shareholders seem happy, which is all that matters, right?

    1. MyffyW Silver badge

      Re: Anti-competitive by design

      The Oracle Processor Core Factor always struck me as ripe for an anti-competitive action.

  5. Grikath

    SAP

    Severe Anal Probing.

    Always has been, but hey..starry eyed managers...

  6. x 7

    I'm amazed that SAP still exists

    Every company I've known that adopted it either went bust, or came close - only surviving by migrating to something else.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Once upon a time...

      There was a chain of stores in Canada called 'The Sony Store'. They sold mostly-Sony branded consumer electronics. Nice store, good sale prices.

      Then, inexplicably, the stores started emptying out. Empty shelves. Everyone assumed that they were going out of business, so the bargain hungry customers visited more often on the assumption that the remaining stock would be suddenly cleared out at massive discounts. Nope. No clearance sales. Just empty shelves, lack of inventory. Staff leaving. The fiasco lasted for about a year, then back to normal.

      Years later I read that the issue was that they were implementing a certain infamous brand of ERP system. For an entire year, they couldn't put a box onto a truck if their life depended on it. An entire year.

      (Much later, in 2015, they finally closed up shop for good.)

    2. Mark 110

      You will find that Unilever are a SAP shop. From source through the factories to the customer, and in no danger of going bust any time soon.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    SAP Licensing Fees are crystal clear...

    PM := best profit margin from your best year ever (past, present or future)

    RS := best total revenue (sales) from your best year ever (past, present or future)

    SAP_FEE := PM * RS * 2

    If you buy the optional 'SEND_US_YOUR_PROFIT_X2' module ($159,599.95 for the three lines of code as shown above, plus a tiny & inscrutable icon), your ERP system can support automatic generation of the payment cheque based on your live SAP data.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bill of Materials

    Why this company uses SAP for their Bill of Materials is beyond me. I'm sure there are better systems, or even implementations of SAP, out there that also support other functions (e.g. purchasing) down the line. The implementation here is a mess and so much money lost by simple mistakes that could easily be avoided.

  9. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

    Can't help thinking that a cage fight of the SAP legal team vs the Oracle legal team would be fun to watch.

    1. Me19713
      Mushroom

      MAD

      In such a case, we can only hope that it will be a case of Mutually-Assured Destruction.

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