back to article Manchester 'wins' £10m to test talking bus stops

Manchester has been given £10m in order to become a world leader in "smart city" technology. The money had been awarded to Manchester before 22 other groups, in what was billed as a competition - and comes from a £40m pot established by the government to invest in the Internet of Things. It was handed out by the Department for …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Northern Power House my fat arse

    I'd quite like a city that just works and is vaguely usable. Talking bus stops aren't going to do that. Actually fitting the buses with GPS, and providing the data to app developers*, OTOH, might just help. Replacing the world's most bonkers ticketing system would also be quite nice**. How about a transport authority with balls***?

    * Just like they've done in London.

    ** They gave that job to ATOS (potential customer, hence AC). You can Google the result of that. Alternatively, you can guess the result and impress friends by being all clairvoyant-like.

    *** When I complain that one of the bus companies**** is clearly not running half a contracted service, I don't want to be told there's nothing they can do (a polite way of telling me to fuck off, I think).

    **** That would be Arriva, the most customer repellent company I've ever encountered (seriously, they make First and Stagecoach look pretty friendly).

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Northern Power House my fat arse

      Don't forget that Maggie had to have second law explicitly further deregulating Manchester's buses so that her cronies at Stagecoach and Arriva could get on with their low wage, low service offerings.

      I don't live there any more but when I go home it seems to me that the GMPTE (as was) has been growing a pair over the last few years. Especially the way the tram tendering has been handled.

      I now live in Germany so find all the British ticketing systems stupid because they pretend that pricing has any relation to the length of an individual journey. Zonal pricing is the only way to do things.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Northern Power House my fat arse

        Manchester: The Turd They Keep Trying To Polish.

        1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: Northern Power House my fat arse

          Manchester: The Turd They Keep Trying To Polish.

          To be born in Manchester is to win the first prize in life. FTFY

        2. Defiant

          Re: Northern Power House my fat arse

          What a snotty little prick you are

      2. graeme leggett Silver badge

        Re: Northern Power House my fat arse

        I just looked at FirstBus's setup for Norwich.

        On one hand there is a city-wide zone and a "2 stop hop" for those short trips. Simple enough

        On the other, trying to actually find out what ticket prices are for an adult is very difficult

        On a third hand there is an app (for Apple, Android AND Windows Mobile!) so that you can buy electronic tickets.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Northern Power House my fat arse

        Vancouver has zonal pricing and integrated between rapid transit and bus so no need to buy multiple tickets. They recently put in a smart card system which doesn't seem to work as planned so they had to make all bus trips single zone. They are talking about once they have smart card data they can figure out distance pricing and even time of day pricing, quite why they think customers won't hate that is beyond me.

      4. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Northern Power House my fat arse

        "Zonal pricing is the only way to do things."

        We have zonal pricing here. But in typical British fashion, the zones are laid out in such a way that the most common short journeys still cross a zone boundary to gouge the most from the passengers. The transport authority is contracted to a German company!

    2. Rob Daglish

      Re: Northern Power House my fat arse

      If they aren't running a service and you can prove that, you're better off speaking to the area traffic commissioner. The one that covers Manchester is very good and has been known to cause trouser wetting in more than one bus company Md... Especially as she can make them repay any incorrectly paid BSOG (fuel duty rebate for bus operators).

      From experience, a friend of mine complained about consistent late running by a particular company, and ended up with a personal phone call from the TC to update her on what we happening. Mysteriously, they stopped running late after that...

  2. hplasm
    Happy

    IoT Bikes and Bus stops!

    Mad for IoT!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: IoT Bikes and Bus stops!

      Talking Bus Stops are ok if they only answer questions truthfully and stfu the rest of the time. But they won't; they'll be programmed to not give any information that might reflect badly upon any of the bus operators, such as "The next scheduled bus has been cancelled". They'll also deliver adverts, inappropriately targeted for people who have downloaded The App, and random ones for anyone else, triggered by proximity sensors.

      Far from motivating people to get fit, nagging sensors in parks and along commuter routes will more likely just result in annoyance, resentment and a hammering [as with a hammer].

      But achieving the stated aims isn't the real purpose of this scheme; it doesn't have to work because it's really just another way of transferring 'public' money to private hands.

  3. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Facepalm

    An uncomfortable noise...

    Talking bus stops, talking roads and parks to tell you to get running fatty.

    It's Clippy bouncing round asking you if you need help writing a letter all over again. This won't make anyone a world leader in anything.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: An uncomfortable noise...

      This won't make anyone a world leader in anything.

      Apart from the world's most expensive, insecure and most rapidly obsolete bus stops.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: An uncomfortable noise...

        ah, but think of the windows (and stop roofs) open wide for hacking opportunities. From rogue ads and personalized, public blackmail threats, to political statements (or worse) and... oh dear, I can't say what other things, freedom of speech is one thing, extremist views on the other hands... baaaaaaaad.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: An uncomfortable noise...

      '

      a "biometric sensor network" which is intended to aid in the management of chronic respiratory conditions'

      Wheezing lungs?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: An uncomfortable noise...

        One or both of two things:

        - Sensors reading pollution levels at the bus stop

        - Detecting when some wanker's smoking under the limited amount of cover that modern bus stops have.*

        * Unless something changed significantly in the last 6 months in the UK**. Mind you, this year we had a holiday in Pittsburgh*** and the bus stops there are just signposts with route numbers.

        ** Having been in the USA for 8 years I am careful not to assume anything is like when I left. Every visit I notice more changes, and more complaints from my wife about bad coffee.

        *** No, really, it was very nice.

    3. BenR

      Re: An uncomfortable noise...

      Talking bus stops, talking roads and parks to tell you to get running fatty.

      It's Clippy bouncing round asking you if you need help writing a letter all over again. This won't make anyone a world leader in anything.

      Exactly. And in this case, you won't be able to turn it off by furtling in the settings. Percussive off switch is likely to be necessary! Absolute waste of money.

      1. Laura Kerr

        Re: An uncomfortable noise...

        Ha, Manchester's already BTDT and GTTS. About twelve years ago they had a set of singing bollards at the east end of the Arndale centre.

        When they were activated to let White Van Man through, they would sink into the ground singing 'Caution, bollards in motion. Caution, bollards in motion. Caution, bollards in motion." It was the earworm from hell, but when I found it had been changed the last time I was down that way, I felt like I'd lost an old friend.

        I expect the singer found a better gig recording IVR menus or something.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
          Mushroom

          Re: An uncomfortable noise...

          Bollards in your motion doesn't sound good. No matter who sings it.

  4. TheFinn

    What sort of choice does anyone ever have over buses? You get on the one that turns up - it's either the quick one, that goes straight there, or the other one, that goes 'round all-the-houses. And you only get to make that choice if you've got no need to be at your destination for a particular time, on any route in Manchester other than down Oxford Road! Christ, whaddaloddabollox!

  5. BlartVersenwaldIII
    Terminator

    Bus stop of the future

    > "People will check-in to their bus stop and let bus operators know they are waiting for their service" apparently.

    Why not Like us on facebook and we'll think about sending a bus from the depot?

    By using this bus stop you agree to the terms and conditions. If you don't wish to not opt-out of opting in to not un-receiving some important messages from our trusted partners press the button when it's flashing green within the next five seconds and swipe left whilst turning thrice widdershins.

    We only need to kickstart £473 more to be able to run the 08:14 to Accrington Stanley, join the effort today!

    Please install the updated BusStart application to allow you to operate this bus stop. Requires access to your GPS, camera, contacts and email. Great, He BusStarts!

  6. frank ly

    IoT of bikes

    You will be assimilated - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBFFrsvgu1Y

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Douglas Adams

    I came here expecting references to the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation and was disappointed. It's Manchester, after all! What is a talking bus stop going to sound like?

    "Hello, though I don't really expect you're pleased to see me. Waiting for a no. 67 are you? I expect they're all stuck in traffic. I know it says 5 minutes on my indicator but that indicator hasn't worked properly since the last torrential downpour. You know I could have worked in the university computer laboratory, I've got a 64 bit processor with 4 gigs of memory and here I am working a bus stop, there are just no jobs in this economy. I've got a mate says he could fit me in with some ATM skimmers, that sounds more interesting but it's in Liverpool and it might be dangerous. Oh, here comes a bus, I expect it's full."

    1. BlartVersenwaldIII
      Go

      Re: Douglas Adams

      Ah yes, Genuine People Personalities would be great but I'm not sure the technology is there yet. Go stick your head in a pig!

      Wouldn't it be better to get voices supplied by Manchester luminaries such as Morrissey, Liam Gallagher and Shaun Ryder?

      Punctured bicycle... on a hillside, desolate... Number 17 isn't on the way yet...

      And so Sally can wait, her bus is too late and we're walking on by. Her soul slides away, "But don't contact the customer complaints department please" I heard you say

      Soon I'm thirty, for a bus I'm disgustingly dirty. Arriva won't put a decent bone in me, what you get is just what you see, yeah...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Douglas Adams

        "Ah yes, Genuine People Personalities would be great but I'm not sure the technology is there yet. Go stick your head in a pig!"

        Alternatively, do what Dave did....

      2. albaleo

        Re: Douglas Adams

        Or one from Salford?

        the f***ing bus is f***ing late / you f***ing wait you f***ing wait /you're f***ing lost and f***ing found / stuck in f***ing chicken town

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @albaleo

          Evident Dr John Cooper Clarke

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Douglas Adams

      Gutted that I can only up-vote the Douglas Adams "genuine people personalities bus stop" reference once. That post truly brightened my afternoon :-)

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Shouting into the void

    All a passenger needs to know is 5 things:

    Which bus should I get to X?

    Is there an alternative bus / stop / mode?

    How much(!?!?)?

    When is my next bus really coming?

    Will the bloody driver bother stopping here, or should I jump in front of it?

    -------------

    This doesn't seem like a particularly difficult set of questions... and various IsOTs is no replacement for an uptodate display matrix, a decent timetable/map/pricelist at the stop, enough capacity to meet demands, and trained, polite drivers.

    Is that really so difficult to do?

    1. Vincent Ballard

      Re: Shouting into the void

      It does seem to be quite difficult, yes. Where I live the stops have displays to tell you how long until the next one, and they fairly frequently tell me that the next bus is 10 minutes away when I can see it at the end of the road, or that it's at the end of the road and then I have to wait 10 minutes.

    2. tony2heads
      Devil

      Re: Shouting into the void

      I remember Mancunian bus drivers from when I was a poor student; they had a tendency to slow down near a bus stop and, as you ran to the bus, speeding off into the distance.

      There is NO WAY I would jump in front of them.

      Icon - Manchester's bus drivers

  9. Fallbarrow

    Unless you are forced to work in Manchester, there is no reason to ever visit the god forsaken place.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      There are plenty of worse places to work

      Perhaps 'Fallbarrow' you might like to reveal where you live/work then we can avoid it like the plague

      No, I don't come from Manchester. I am a stinking southerner but I do know that you are wrong about the city.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There are plenty of worse places to work

        "Perhaps 'Fallbarrow' you might like to reveal where you live/work then we can avoid it like the plague"

        Probably Liverpool, they are only jealous and do whine a lot.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: There are plenty of worse places to work

          "I am a stinking southerner but I do know that you are wrong about the city."

          "Perhaps 'Fallbarrow' you might like to reveal where you live/work then we can avoid it like the plague"

          Don't breed 'em too bright in your neck of the wood eh?

    2. KeithR

      Oh, Manchester's OK.

      It's not LONDON, for one thing...

  10. Dr Dan Holdsworth
    FAIL

    Deny reality

    Denial of reality is what is going on here. Roughly 90% of journeys in Manchester are made by car, and as self-driving vehicles start to be introduced, this isn't going to change. Over time buses are going to slowly become obsolete.

    So, Manchester city council, where does this leave you with your plan to make Manchester a complete bastard of a place to travel through in a car? Standing in the rain looking like a right bunch of plonkers, that's where!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Deny reality

      Over time buses are going to slowly become obsolete

      You wish. The council sees its job as producing "public services" and it sees your job as "consuming public services and picking up the tab". And as part of that, the council regard the War on Cars as a sort of sacred duty.

  11. TheProf
    FAIL

    Cheaper option

    What public transport needs is to turn up on schedule.

    Thank you.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cheaper option

      Typical failure to consider all requirements. It also needs to depart on schedule, and arrive at destination on schedule.

      1. BlartVersenwaldIII
        Pirate

        Re: Cheaper option

        Stopping to let passengers get on and off is optional however as it has a tendency to mess with the timetable.

      2. shrdlu

        Re: Cheaper option

        We can do better than just run to schedule. When there is demand add another run announced via the app. Buses are always crowded when it rains, build a wet-weather timetable.

  12. annodomini2
    Megaphone

    2 mins

    Before they start spouting the adverts on the conveniently located billboards

    Shouty cos they will be.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Far more useful would be the time of the next bus... too often they just skip a few....

    On the continent they have displays showing what time the next bus is arriving. Vital and infinitely more useful. I've turned up before and at least two scheduled buses just never show up. I tried ringing the number on the bus stop after waiting 40 minutes once. They couldn't tell me whether a bus was actually going to come or not that night (just the timetable which clearly wasn't running) so I had to make alternative arrangements to get home. I don't need something that will talk to me (will it just laugh at you if the bus isn't going to arrive at all?)

    1. jb99

      Re: Far more useful would be the time of the next bus... too often they just skip a few....

      On the continent? They do in London too. Don't they everywhere?

      1. Mike Flex

        Re: Far more useful would be the time of the next bus... too often they just skip a few....

        "On the continent? They do in London too. Don't they everywhere?"

        They have them in Brizzle. Of course, the times displayed bear very little relation to the times the buses show up.

        1. Super Fast Jellyfish

          Re: Far more useful would be the time of the next bus... too often they just skip a few....

          They did install them on the (Manchester) Metro, took well over a year before they went live...

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Marketing Gibberish

    "and so an alternative is to use Internet of Things enabled bikes in a crowd-sourced and maintained, secure bike sharing service. It will also include "e-cargo" bikes to make "last-mile" deliveries on the Corridor"

    What language is that written in - Although the words look familiar, the meaning is lost on me!

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Are they going to be part of Frank Suhttleworths 500 bus stops ?

    You're like Manchester and I love you..........

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      500 Bus Stops

      You mean John Shuttleworth

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We had a similar issue with a trial into talking petrol dispensing nozzles at one of our local fuel stations some time back.

    There were as irritating as f*ck.

    Call me anti-technology if you like, but there's enough noise as it is without inanimate objects talking to you.

    It's bad enough having to put up with loud mobile phone conversations on the way to work without having the street kicking in its ha'penny worth as well.

  17. Mike Flex

    talking bus stops?

    Did they not learn from talkie toaster?

  18. Shadow Systems

    It has potential.

    As someone whom is totally blind, I wouldn't mind if the bus stop had

    a "crosswalk post with push button" gadget that told us which stop we were at (main street & nearest cross street), which bus(es) stopped there, the time when the next bus was scheduled to arrive, & if there were any conditions that meant I needed to find another stop elsewhere (traffic jam blocking access, bus broke down, etc).

    Being able to walk up, find the post, push the button, & find out that info would make it much easier to navigate the city without being forced to keep asking random strangers for assistance.

    Yes an application on a SmartPhone that matched the bus/train public transit network to your SmartPhone's GPS to tell you that data would ALSO be nice, but that relies on having a SmartPhone, having a signal that can connect you to the internet, your GPS functioning properly, having the application installed, the application functioning properly, etc etc etc.

    Having a post at each stop (make it part of the pole that the bus sign is mounted to) would mean that *anyone* whom found the stop could find out that data without being forced to have all those other elements working flawlessly as well.

    YES there are Door-To-Door ParaTransit services available in many locations, but they're generally not cheap AND they require you to either reserve them well in advance or pay a "last minute" fee (which makes it even more extortionate). Such services are nice when you can afford them, but they've given up flexability in favor of timelyness; you can get from A to B in as little time as possible, but if you suddenly realize you need to swing by C as well then you're screwed. The drivers are on a timer with a route to stick to like glue. They can't just skip off to $OtherLocation because you asked them to. If you're on a public bus & on your way to B when you realize you need to get to C, you can ask the driver which bus(es) you need to catch to get there, have them drop you off at the next stop, & the nice ones will even radio to Dispatch to have the bus you need wait for you to catch it. Sure it takes longer, but you can change destinations as easily as changing bus routes & showing your Daily/Monthly Pass.

    A talking bus stop would be a nice thing for the blind, it could even be useful to anyone whom has cognative disabilities, is autistic, or otherwise might have trouble working out where they are, which bus(es) go by there, when they go by, & that sort of thing.

    Sure it's not cheap, it costs money to install such systems, maintain them, update them, & keep them as accurate as possible, but the ROI makes them valuable to any/everyone for whom "personal mobility" is limited to either Public Transportation, Cabs/Taxi/Lyft/Uber, or bumming rides off friends/relatives every time we need to go somewhere.

    I'd rather know that I could walk down the block to the corner, find the bus stop, push the button, & hear when the next bus #x was due past, confident that I could catch it & go where I needed, than to have to call up a friend at the drop of a hat & have to beg them to drive me to run an errand I could otherwise do for myself if I only knew when/where to catch the bus.

    *Smiles, shrugs*

    It's all a pipe dream though. I live in America.

  19. PeterRodwell

    Old hat

    We've had talking bus stops in Madrid for years. They help the blind know which bus to catch when several lines pass the same bus stop. The buses also talk so the blind know when they reach their destination. Same on the Metro.

  20. Richard Altmann

    Munich

    is terrible. In four years, the bus was three times late!

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    More noise pollution - bad enough with self service checkouts now.

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