back to article Sysadmin's former boss claims five years FREE support or off to court

A sysadmin has taken to Reddit to tell the tale of a boss from hell, who has demanded – with legal letters – that he or she provide services for five years after leaving a job. “I left the company around six months ago,” wrote a Redditor named “Setsquared”. “Upon leaving as a nicety I explained that my two months notice wasn' …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    my contract meant that I was responsible for any issues

    And the replacement was on a different contract?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Sounds like an incentive to go through as many techies as you can. Get rid of one a year, retain a team of five for the cost of one.

    2. Ian Michael Gumby
      Boffin

      @AC,

      It doesn't matter. All that matters is what is in your contract and what you agreed to do.

      However, even if its within your contract, there are clauses which are unenforceable or are invalid. This could invalidate the entire contract unless there is a clause which states that if any of the terms are unenforceable, the contract is still in place and only that clause is stricken.

      Warranties and Implied Warranties get a bit tricky. However... based on what was written in the article, the clause purportedly used by the client to force support wouldn't fly in most if not all US courts. (YMMV, there are wacky judges out there...)

      Since it sounds like the guy was doing admin work... there isn't much of a warranty issue in the first place.

      As someone who's been doing independent work for 20+ years... I've seen it all .... ;-)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "However, even if its within your contract, there are clauses which are unenforceable or are invalid. This could invalidate the entire contract unless there is a clause which states that if any of the terms are unenforceable, the contract is still in place and only that clause is stricken."

        If only the people who write contracts understood the concept of atomicity as well as techies do :).

        1. Ian Michael Gumby
          Boffin

          @AC

          Good lawyers do understand how to write contracts.

          My first client was a bank and their in-house counsel wrote the base contract and explained some of the key parts to it. I had a copy of Black's Law Dictionary so I didn't need to get a lawyer friend to look it over. It was all pretty straight forward and easy to read.

          What makes contracts interesting is when it comes to fixed bid.

      2. cs94njw

        It does matter if it was the same contract, they could ask the replacement to do the work instead.

      3. Rob Moss

        ...unless the term which discusses other unenforceable terms is itself unenforceable.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      If you read the reddit thread

      If you read the reddit thread, the "legal threat" was written by a manager not a lawyer, and misrepresented the clause to expand its breadth. A real lawyer would get themselves in a heap of trouble doing that.

      It's too bad the old company isn't mentioned by name.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby

        @AC ...Re: If you read the reddit thread

        You clearly don't know lawyers. ;-)

        Unless its under oath... most is fair game. They will push it to the limit and beyond... You would be surprised as to what they can get away with before anything is sanction-able.

        To your point, yes, clearly the person making the threats wasn't a lawyer and that his willful misinterpretation was more of desperation than a real legal threat. This is why the guy had nothing really to worry about. However, if the language in the clause is vague enough... then the willful misinterpretation could be excused. Yes, that sounds weird... but if the interpretation or misinterpretation is 'reasonable' then they could get away with the claim.

    4. NoneSuch Silver badge

      Same here

      Had a (literally) psychotic boss and got away from him after three years. No one enjoyed working at that company and it was entirely due to the guy who owned the business. Shady, backstabbing jerk. Since leaving I'd been accused of stealing a laptop (it was in a drawer) and called at 2AM when he was pissed to help him with his laptop.

      I got a call a year after I left from the new company IT manager. Was tempted to hang up but the guy starts with, "I just started working at XXXX and if you want to tell me to $%^& off like everyone else I'll understand." Made me laugh and I ended up helping him out. Never got another call from him. I heard he quit a few weeks later.

  2. MrDamage Silver badge

    One Invoice is all it takes

    Send the old employer one invoice (maybe from the new employer as the "out-sourcing provider") for your time rated at $2k/hour, minimum 2 hours work billed, and watch those letters/calls/texts/emails dry up quickly.

    Not to mention now that they have been "reddit'd", the old employer might have a hard time finding a replacement tech.

    1. Ian Michael Gumby

      @MrDamage... Re: One Invoice is all it takes

      Dude! Lets get back to reality.

      First, doing what you suggested would trigger a lot of potential legal headaches.

      The guy is off the hook.

      He could easily have not been the nice guy and had not offered to provide any additional... unbilled support. He is within his right to tell the company to stop bothering him.

      More to the point, he's no longer under any contract therefore had he accessed the systems, provided any information which may have yielded any downtime due to a person following his advice, he would have opened himself up to criminal prosecution as well as civil liabilities.

      Without seeing the contract, the clause that the previous employer relied upon to harass the guy would either be invalid / unenforceable, or enforceable under limited circumstances. (This is going to be true depending on the jurisdiction.... laws differ by state, country ... YMMV)

      If this were in the UK, he could easily tell the company that he's not going to do anymore free support in that he is now working for another company. They could sue him, however, loser pays and in this instance, the company would lose with the case getting dismissed w prejudice.

      In the US, the contract was terminated, there is no implied warranty and since they have since hired multiple staffers, any implied warranty would have been voided months earlier.

      A competent lawyer would have a field day.

      To your point, he could have easily told the former employer that he was out of a contract and that they could renegotiate a new contract as soon as he completes the work for his existing customer... and then set a high rate, along with other reasonable terms which the company may find distasteful. (e.g. like an upfront retainer.. plus payment at the time service is rendered. ) The moment they refuse ... then they are no longer a problem.

    2. Just Enough

      Re: One Invoice is all it takes

      What a stupid idea. As soon as the invoice is issued the work done would be contracted, with all the legal overheads that entails. It would no longer be someone just helping out people at their old job, out of the goodness of their heart, no guarantees.

      The guy wanted rid of the old employer, he did not want to further entangle himself into further obligations.

  3. LucreLout

    Dear former boss of SetSquared....

    ... you should be aware that once the identity of your company leaks, the only staff you'll be able to get are box fresh graduates in India. Nobody with any level of professional expertise or competency is going to want to work for you when there are any other gigs available.

    Leave the guy/gal alone, and recognize that your outright failures as a manager place no requirement on your former staff to bail out your company, least of all with you still in harness. Find a mirror, hold it up, and what you see is a clue to the origins of your predicament.

    1. Ian Michael Gumby

      Re: Dear former boss of SetSquared....

      Sorry,

      But the world is a very big place.

      Anyone who's done a lot of independent consulting will tell you that this guy (bad client) will always find a n00b consultant who will fall for his carp. You would be surprised at a lot of things some clients will try to pull.

      The guy should have called his bluff. Ok, so his current client has an in house counsel who took care of the issue. Not too difficult. All it would have taken is a single phone call and a follow up letter to tell the guy that he is full of it. Assuming that the clause he refers to is valid, then its only enforceable if the guy is in litigation and then his work is to be done in support of defending against said litigation. Until then... bugger off.

      End of story.

      1. Danny 14

        Re: Dear former boss of SetSquared....

        I suppose a fresh contractor needs a job like this so they can LEARN what not to do for the rest of your career. We have all been there and done that one job that you should REALLY have left alone. Lets see, company servers already down when you join. No documentation from last sysadmin who lasted a few months, all passwords set as P@ssword (please tell me they don't have a VPN that allows admins to logon?), no backups. That's a lot of alarm bells even for a fresh out of the box sysadmin.

    2. ps2os2

      Re: Dear former boss of SetSquared....

      There was a company here in the States that tried something similar. Once the news got out the employer had to retract the request. I agree with your comment about INDIAN types that would be the only ones that would work for that type of company.

  4. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    This does not happen just to sysadmin

    When I left my last job going to a competitor, the employer went as far as ordering me to turn off all equipment (I work from home) and banning me from the company premises until my notice ends. I did not even have the means of communication to download my latest payslips and PXX certificates as these were available only via electronic means and only from the company Oracle Financials. I could not even go to the office to hand-in my badge and company equipment - it had to be handed to another employee which had to come to my home.

    So, after manifesting such rabid paranoia, I did not expect them to come calling especially regarding architecture and code (stuff clearly within the remit of anti-compete clauses). Well, they did - they ended up pestering me repeatedly including once at 7pm on a Sunday night regarding how stuff works and why it is architected this way despite it all being described in detail in code + changelogs, whitepapers and presentations over the years. I ended up having to tell them off and threaten using my current non-compete + lawyers.

    Just to put things into perspective - we are not talking about a mom and pop-shop here. We are talking about a high tech multinational with > 100Billion USD capitalization.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This does not happen just to sysadmin

      As the previous commentard said, outrageous billing is the easiest way to get rid of these (or at least get paid hilariously for your trouble).

      I've never gone quite so far, but in the past when I've been sick and tired of repeated requests to do contract work I've nudged the prices up until they go away. It's easier to say "yes I'll work for you, but this is how much it'll cost", than "no I don't want to work for you any more, the work is boring and I'd rather spend my time playing with my kids". You also might be surprised at how much someone thinks you are really worth.

      Of course, that's all assuming that you have the luxury of choosing what work you want to do. Some people don't have that choice.

      1. Dr. Mouse

        Re: This does not happen just to sysadmin

        As the previous commentard said, outrageous billing is the easiest way to get rid of these (or at least get paid hilariously for your trouble).

        When I was at school, one of my friend's dads was a professor in a very specialist area. He was paid vast sums of money to do consultancy work.

        One particular job he was offered involved an extended stay outside the country, and he did not want to do it. It clashed with family events and other commitments. Rather than telling them no, he quoted the job at an extortionate rate, 10x+ his normal (already very high) rates. To his astonishment, they accepted. The insane amount of money he was paid was adequate compensation for the inconvenience.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: This does not happen just to sysadmin

          I once worked for an overseas subsidiary company on a two year "tour" contract. The local salary looked fantastic - but turned out to be what they paid their local new graduate starters. Their policy appeared to be to turn over "tour" staff every two years - so they never had to pay them the local going rate for experienced staff.

          In my case they miscalculated - and needed me to stay on for a few months beyond the contract period. The salary they offered was mouth-wateringly obscene. I refused as a matter of principle and came home.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: This does not happen just to sysadmin

            Principles are nice but they tend not to place bread in the table.

        2. PNGuinn
          Headmaster

          Re: "One of my friend's dads"

          And what did your friend's other father(s) do for a living?

          Enquiring minds etc etc...

    2. Ian Michael Gumby
      Boffin

      @Voland ...Re: This does not happen just to sysadmin

      If you are working on sensitive stuff and then give notice or are terminated. What the company did was the best thing for you and them.

      As weird as it sounds... this is the norm for any major R&D company.

      You should have been entitled to the information in Oracle Financials and they should have had someone in HR provide it to you via email or snail mail at your request.

      The contacting you after the fact... not cool on their part. Most likely a desperate manager not an official request. I'm sure had his boss found out, or HR... that would have been a very bad thing for the guy who contacted you.

      1. Humpty McNumpty

        Re: @Voland ...This does not happen just to sysadmin

        It also seems to be pretty standard with sales reps, handing in your notice = instant garden leave. As if should the oportunity have existed you woudn't have already pilfered client data while you were job hunting.

        In the context of Sales it makes LinkedIn/Social Media use somewhat dangerous, you already have all the relevant contacts and relationships parcelled up to take with you. If you are any good you already know what you sell them with reference to records.

        1. Vic

          Re: @Voland ...This does not happen just to sysadmin

          It also seems to be pretty standard with sales reps, handing in your notice = instant garden leave

          I once worked for a company where, when the Sales Manager handed in his notice to work for a direct competitor, he was made to work it - in front of customers as normal.

          Spookily enough, we didn't get many sales for a few months...

          Vic.

  5. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    If some aspect of your job makes you a witness to something that ends up in court you could end up being summoned. For most people this is an unlikely event does affect forensic scientists. After I quit that job the summonses went on for a year or so including one for a civil case stemming from a fatal accident I investigated years before I quit. And then a year or too ago an old colleague emailed me to tell me of an arrest in a case which would have been over 20 years old at that time; fortunately nothing came of that one.

    1. Ian Michael Gumby

      In civil cases, you can refuse to testify or be part of the case unless they decide to make you a party of the case.

      Criminal cases... that's a different story.

      No one can compel you to testify in a civil case.

      1. Adam 52 Silver badge

        This, "No one can compel you to testify in a civil case." isn't true, except in very special situations. For some values of "compel".

        1. JEDIDIAH
          Linux

          That subpeona is a double edged sword.

          Testimony can be compelled for civil cases but then you end up with a hostile witness.

          1. Ian Michael Gumby

            Re: That subpeona is a double edged sword.

            I stand corrected... to a point.

            There are limitations see civil Rule 45.

            (Especially if you're telecommuting.)

            Also if you're going to face a large cost to testify. (Like losing a day's wage or a couple of days wages.)

            Then there's the question of what testimony you could provide... there's more, and if you want push it... you can make it difficult enough so that you're never going to be called.

          2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: That subpeona is a double edged sword.

            "Testimony can be compelled for civil cases but then you end up with a hostile witness."

            It also helps to look at the testimony before deciding to call the witness. IFAICR my evidence went against the party that decided they needed me.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        @Gumby

        You do realise, don't you, that there are different jurisdictions and they have different rules?

  6. Andy Non Silver badge

    Better not to burn bridges.

    I've always left amicably from employers with goodwill remaining on both sides. This enduring relationship came in handy too when I took up contracting and charged my former employer approximately four times the hourly rate they used to pay me at. It was win-win. I got some extra income and the employer gained from my extensive knowledge of their systems and software allowing them to transition the knowledge to newer staff.

    1. dan1980

      Re: Better not to burn bridges.

      @Andy Non

      That's always been my approach too, and I think the vast majority of people on both sides of the equation are decent and 9/10 there are no problems. I've consulted for ex-employers, one of whom all but forced my retrenchment but the boss well knew that my job wasn't actually redundant from an operational perspective. Cue a few months of contract work but, as it was billed differently he was able to arrange it despite it costing more.

      The unfortunate truth, however, is that some people are just decent. Some, too, are unable to accept any responsibility and point fingers anywhere else but inwards.

      The really unfortunate thing is that many of those people focus on pay and promotion (which is fine) rather than being in any way competent. Thus their skills are honed in side-stepping landmines (often of their own making) and talking themselves up (often without justification) rather than managing their staff or, heaven forbid, trying to create a productive, effective workplace.

      1. chivo243 Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Better not to burn bridges.

        I have also tried to take the high road when parting ways with an employer. Although, one time I had to have the gas can in hand with the matches at the ready.... Man, that was one big bridge fire. I still smile when I think how good it was to shrug off the dust of that place out of my coat.

        1. anothercynic Silver badge

          Re: Better not to burn bridges.

          @chivo243, ditto... There is one case though where I'm still today annoyed at what's been done to my work (butchered by someone who is *not* an expert). But there you are...

    2. SVV

      Re: Better not to burn bridges.

      Someties it is, sometimes it isn't.

      I've genarally had no problem with answering the odd few quick nquestions from previous employers in the iimmedate aftermath of leaving to start a new job, as long as they sent polite emials, and understood that I would not be answering them in my new employer's time. I think most sensible employers unserstand that this can work both ways too, and that they might need to do the same thing one day. Decent employers generally also understand the importance of good documentation in order to minimise the need for such conatcts with ex-employees.

      However one time I was quite happy to burn that bridge. At the job I left, I worked with a "senior developer" who thought it was great that I did most of the design and coding work whilst ha surfed the web all day and invited himself to every meeting he could. This was fine by me, as I was using Java for the first time and really got to learn it well, which ultimately enabled me to easily find my next job when I tired of this "arrangement".

      6 weeks after leaving, and 2 weeks into my new job, I was working hard on my first project and really getting into it. Then an email arrived from my ex-colleague with an enormous list of questions, none of which he'd have had to ask if he'd actually done some coding work on the system whilst I was there, and most of which he could find the answer for if he'd learnt Java properly and read the documentation in the code. The implication clearly was that he thought I'd been a mug for doing so much of the work myself, and therefore such an idiot would carry on doing his work for him even after leaving. Needless to say, I completely ignored this email and 2 weeks later he sent me another one complaining I hadn't replied quickly enough. I resisted the urge to reply and tell him where to stick his questions, and fortunately I never heard from him again.

  7. Your alien overlord - fear me

    I've never worked a notice period. Hand in my notice, desk empty by the end of the day.

    I've also never allowed previous employers to contact me about 'just fix this would you' since that normally means you're not exclusively working for your new employer which I find pretty standard nowadays.

    Now do I know they've screwed up after I've left - oh yes. Do I care, oh no. Why? New company, new priorities, new problems.

    1. Joe Drunk

      I believe giving notice (2 weeks) is standard if you're en employee, a mere courtesy if you're a contractor. Most of my departures have been abrupt, both voluntary or forced. On one of my first consulting gigs as a young, wide-eyed PFY I received an offer from my current employer's competitor and took it, giving two weeks notice. The next day I came into work and was subsequently escorted out of the building by security and my manager. Apparently this is standard procedure when you accept a job offer from a competitor.

      I'm in the US and after more than two decades have never been contacted by a former employer after leaving the firm. I have however, been contacted by colleagues who suddenly have to scramble to take on any work I had scheduled. I of course offer any help I can since I know the poor bastards are in a major crunch. This has happened on a few occasions when the company (huge multi-nationals btw) decide they don't want to pay for contractors any more. You arrive at work one morning (usually a Friday) and are greeted by a group of fellow contractors milling about in the lobby who inform you we're not allowed in the building anymore. Some employee from your department (not your manager) meets you in the lobby and collects ID's, company equipment, etc.

      This is another reason as a contractor not to bring personal items to work, they are usually lost forever. A cheap cell phone charger, a cheap umbrella and a cheap coffee maker are the only things I've left behind.

      But no, I am in no way obliged to provide any of my former services if I'm not being compensated for them. I make sure the clause "this contract can be terminated at any time by either party" is present in any consulting agreement I sign.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Gardening leave

        My previous employer had a default rule of no-customer facing work once on notice.

        I had a lovely last month, as I agreed (with a different division of the same company) to give some internal training around Europe and had an expense paid drinking tour, catching up with former colleagues.

        AC,

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Anone for what should be obvious reasons ...

        > I have however, been contacted by colleagues ...

        I left my last job when the "beancounters" got bought in to wave an axe around. It was a bad time for me, officially diagnosed and signed off with stress and depression because I'd let the b'stards grind me down too far before I'd realised what the problem was.

        Luckily my union was very supportive - but the company didn't really want me back because they'd have had to fix some of their crappy practices. So they first tried the "kick him while he's down and hope he thanks us when they stop" approach by trying to make out all my problems were my fault, I was crap at the job, and that sort of thing - but this is where the union support paid off as my rep stopped them, on my own I don't think I'd have coped.

        So then they offered to pay me to go, offered a pittance which my rep talked the up from. In hindsight I could have worked them for a lot more, but I wanted out by then.

        I suggested some changed to the agreement, specifically they had used a load of standard terms, one of which was "you will not attempt to access any system ..." to which I suggested they add "without prior authorisation". Hey, in spite of the shit they were giving me, I consider myself a professional, and even if they couldn't see what was coming up, I had some ideas ... So as a professional I protected them from themselves - because if I didn't, I was no better than them.

        Well actually, it wasn't so much for the company, but for the colleagues who I was leaving to pick up the work I'd been doing. And I'd told them that off the record I was happy to help them out personally.

        And guess what, I did get called back several times. No problem as my next employer does services and so I got some extra billable hours :-) My ex colleagues got helped out, I got billabel hours, and I got to hold my head high knowing that I held the moral high ground.

        It would have been easy to keep quiet, and when the calls for help came just say "sorry, not allowed to touch your systems". But then if I'd done that, then I wouldn't have felt that I'd done the right thing.

        Now years later, I've been diagnosed as autistic (aspergers) which explains a lot of the problems I had coping with the managers concerned and the changes going on.

        1. h4rm0ny

          >>"I left my last job when the "beancounters" got bought in to wave an axe around. It was a bad time for me, officially diagnosed and signed off with stress and depression because I'd let the b'stards grind me down too far before I'd realised what the problem was."

          I wont say you're lucky because you're not - depression and stress are horrible. But it is fortunate you weren't just contracting / self-employed. I am, and there's no way I can be "signed off". No work, no money. :/

      3. Ian Michael Gumby

        @Joe Drunk

        Giving notice is a courtesy unless you're an officer/executive of the company, or you are a contractor.

        As a contractor, your notice period is contractually set. This works both ways. Unless the contract is terminated for cause... (meaning you screwed up big...), the company can show you the door right away, however, you have the right to bill them for the notice period and they are obligated to pay it, or they make stuff up to show cause.

        If you're an officer of the company or a senior executive, you may be required to give notice, work for a transition period, then go on a gardening period. (This is usually negotiated.)

        And yes, to your point, if you're not being compensated, you can tell them to f off. Or you can do them a favor. Your call and your risk.

        1. Mark Rogers

          Re: @Joe Drunk

          Giving notice is a courtesy unless you're an officer/executive of the company, or you are a contractor.

          Are you sure about that? According to http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/ it's the following:-

          If you have worked for your employer for one month or more, the legal minimum amount of notice you must give is one week.

          Normally your employment contract will set out a longer notice period. If it does, you should give this length of notice to your employer.

          If your employment contract does not set out a notice period you should give a reasonable period of notice to your employer. This is included in your employment contract as what is known as an 'implied term'. What is 'reasonable' will depend on your seniority and how long you have worked there.

          1. Ian Michael Gumby

            @ Mark... Re: @Joe Drunk

            In the states... yes. Its a courtesy as an employee.

            I'll defer to your UK rules, however, how often is it followed up upon when someone walks off the job.

            The point of my post was to show that for contractors/consultants and senior employees you will have a work contract that may spell out gardening periods and non-competes which may or may not be enforceable, based on the wording in the clause.

            So we are in violent agreement. ;-)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @Joe Drunk

          As a contractor, your notice period is contractually set.

          Contracting in Australia, that's generally the case too. Unless your contract is with IBM, who after a bad financial result sometimes goes through a binge of terminating higher paid contractors before their time, in order to make their books look better. Directly seen this happen, and been one of the people terminated over a few-week people of blood letting.

          Naturally, I refuse to work for IBM ever again. Nor will many of my colleagues. Glad to say, this has caused them decent problems in subsequent years with their service delivery. :) (I'm a specialist in a small field, so screw them.)

          1. Ian Michael Gumby

            @AC ...Re: @Joe Drunk

            Yeah, I escaped from the Borg... ;-)

            They may have terminated the higher paid contractors... but they had to pay them for their notice period. Depending on the contract, that could be 0 or it could be a month.

            So even on a 6 month contract and the notice period is 1 month... they let you go early... you can get paid out for the month. But here's the catch. They can refuse and tell you to sue them. If the payout period is less than what you will spend on a lawyer.. you tend to walk away and warn your friends about IBM.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sort of sounds like we had the same employer!!!

    My ex-employer did everything to ignore, buttonhole, mentally abuse and finally pushed me out.

    I knew there was a chance of redundancy, but at 16:50 on a Thursday was a bit of an odd one. "Down all tools immediately and logout" was their order -- which my Solicitor said I must do.

    At 16:46 I'd received an email "Hey man, we didn't know (yeah right you w@nk3r$) you're on the list" which didn't get actioned given the order 4 mins later.

    I guess they kinda needed the login details to AWS, Rackspace, vCloud Air and a bunch of other sites. So a bit later they write a demand letter to my Solicitor -- AFTER I had handed in all my kit. Said kit included a copy of Lastpass (corp ruled we use it).

    No kit = no passwords = no shit Sherlock, you're screwed.

    My Solicitor sent them a polite note back that I didn't know the passwords and they were in the kit that was returned, on my PGPdisk encrypted Laptop.

    Never heard another word. Me guesses the pucker factor on their side must have been as 12 or 13!

  9. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge
    Joke

    It seems this sysadmin is in dire need of a remote, BOFH-style modded cattle prod, inserted in the chair of the former boss.

    >>KZZZZEEERRRT<<

    I love the smell of ozone in the morning

    (napalm can be so hard to get, these days)

  10. jake Silver badge

    Earth to world:

    Don't sign a contract unless it says "when it's over, it's over". For whatever reason[0]. And when it's over, do the cat thing ... stick your tail straight up and walk away without looking back. Continuing to communicate with a broken contract is an exercise in frustration on the party with the smaller lawyers. Let them push the issue, if they insist, but never reply to them unless you get a court order.

    Note that I'm typing as a conslutant, not a 9-5er ... although in my last two 9-5 jobs, I had a similar clause inserted into the contract. Once bitten, 10 times paranoid ...

    [0] Including "I hate everything you are doing, so I am taking my toys away and going home". Which I actually used in the fine print of a contract with an early "internet portal" ... and acted on it ;-)

    1. Sir Alien

      Re: Earth to world:

      Even then, it depends whether such a contract is even enforceable. Yes it may be a pain to go through all the legal rambles of lawyers and letters but end of the day, a contract does not override the "LAW"

      - S.A

      1. Ian Michael Gumby

        Re: Earth to world:

        Oh there's more to it than that...

        It depends on the contract as well as the type of work being done.

        As Sir Alien says... some clauses are enforceable, some are not.

        If you don't know how to write/read understand the terms of a contract... don't have a copy of Black's Law (US only) then get a lawyer. They money you spend will save you more in the long run.

        Warranty and implied Warranty are a bit murky.

        And that cat move at the end of a contract... never a good idea.

        It doesn't hurt you to listen and then say '... sorry no ...'

        1. jake Silver badge

          Re: Earth to world:

          "And that cat move at the end of a contract... never a good idea."

          Trust me. It's easier, if you have a proper contract. (I don't actually mention cats ...)

          "It doesn't hurt you to listen and then say '... sorry no ...'"

          Oh, I listen (read: "read"). But I don't reply. No point. Let 'em get into a lather and employ their land-sharks. For as long as they want to spend the money. It absolutely NEVER gets to court. Proper contracts are worth their weight in gold.

          Having a contract lawyer as a close 1st cousin doesn't hurt any ;-)

    2. Raedwald Bretwalda

      Re: Earth to world:

      "Don't sign a contract..."

      IANAL, and I guess it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but a contract requires an exchange: if you do some work, they have to pay you. And if the contract itself does not specify that you will be paid, it is an unfair contract term. You can just ignore it. Let them waste time and money on consulting a lawyer who will set them straight.

  11. Tony S

    Not just in IT

    A long time ago, I worked in retail.

    I left my job at a regional supermarket chain to take on a new role at a much bigger company. Company policy at the old business was to take the manager out of the store as soon as possible, but in my case, I was left there. In fact, I still had the keys etc, right up to the last day. Even though I called several times to remind them I was leaving, no-one turned up to do the handover.

    I therefore cashed up, banked the money and phoned the area manager to confirm what I had done; I had also had one of the staff double check the numbers to show that everything balanced.

    I'd been at the new company about 5 weeks when I had a letter telling me that there was a discrepancy in the money at my old store and that they wanted me to go back and sort things out. I showed it to the HR manager; he had their company solicitor send a letter (wish I still had it) to the old company.

    Effectively, it told them that I was not responsible, that any attempt to make threats would result in them being taken to an Industrial Tribunal, not to contact me again; and in nice legal terms "Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough"!

  12. Christoph

    Yet another boss who is genuinely puzzled why "Beatings will continue until morale improves" doesn't seem to be producing the expected results.

    1. Jim 43

      No kidding, they just don't understand that the morale will continue until the beatings improve.

  13. ratfox
    Happy

    Lawyers at Setsquared's new employer quickly sent off a missive to quash those threats

    It's nice that sometimes you can have corporate lawyers on your side. It doesn't happen very often, so you should treasure the opportunity!

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If you don't charge for something...

    ...then it is perceived as having no value.

    There is no reason to burn bridges - however, you should be free to charge whatever you like for subsequent consultancy/support/advice - and that figure should be so large as to be very worth your while.

  15. Lee D Silver badge

    I work in schools.

    I once left a school for various reasons, found a better job, moved on, handed the documentation / passwords etc. to the head and - at the head's request - one of the governor's (who worked in IT himself). They signed off on it all, there was no ill feeling (apart from "Can we pay you more to keep you?") and off I went.

    Months later, I was still getting calls from a deputy head demanding I give him the administrator password for the domain. Nope. They were persistent and rude and interrupting my work for my new employer, so I kept telling them where to go - the head or the governor. But they still kept on.

    In the end, I blocked their number.

    The reason for demanding the admin password? They'd bought dictation machines that only recorded in WMA and a piece of kiddy-friendly audio software that only imported MP3. And they genuinely and honestly believed that having the admin password would "just fix everything" better than the transparent file conversion service that I put in place before I left (drag a WMA to a folder and then an MP3 of it would appear in a subfolder within a few minutes - it doesn't get easier than that). They wouldn't listen, and kept on and on and on about it.

    I wasn't contractually obliged to do anything at all, but if you're going to be that much an idiot, I'm not going to help you either. Especially when, as I told them, there were two complete copies of all available documentation - including passwords - within the school under the keeping of the head and governors. You want the password, get it off them. Not me. I'm gone. But the reason you're asking is almost certainly because you tried and were told no.

    Bet he wished he'd consulted IT on those purchases while I was still around rather than just spend lots of the school's money on incompatible devices and software.

    1. Trygve Henriksen

      I assume that you also told the head and governor how to change said passwords, and recommend that they do so asap. (It's what I would have done)

      Call it a 'clean break' policy.

  16. John Tserkezis

    I used to work for a company that did the opposite.

    We were bought out by a company called Solution 6 (a division of Hell Inc), and they handed out new contracts for us to sign. Part of it said (I'm paraphrasing) "we reserve the right to prevent you from doing the same job for six months after you leave". So, not only did they not want us to work for them, they didn't want us to work for anyone else either.

    There were two obstacles to this: Firstly, the law says you can't stop someone from doing their job, and secondly, when presented with signing the contract, most of us responded with (and again, I'm heavily paraphrasing) "no". There's a whole lot more to the fuckup that was Sol6, but after all, with Hell being the parent company, no surprises there.

    I'm safe in mentioning names, because they don't exist anymore - for a whole bunch of obvious reasons. Incompetent muppets.

    1. Ian Michael Gumby

      @John Re: I used to work for a company that did the opposite.

      This is a perfect example of what lawyers will do...

      First, its legal for them to include terms in the contract that are unenforceable even if everyone knows that its unenforceable. IBM does this all the time. Its a blanket term in their base employee agreements.

      However... it becomes enforceable when they specify a small list of companies which are direct competitors.

      Or if they have given you compensation for the 'gardening period' which they are enforcing.

      So if you worked for IBM, signed a contract that stipulated you couldn't go to Oracle, Microsoft, Google, etc ... but was only limited to a couple of these types of companies. And had a limited gardening period.. you would be bound by the contract.

      By making a blanket statement... they are using it as a scare tactic. By doing it right... its a sign that they will enforce it. And there have been cases where they fought and won the right to block someone.

      The largest irony... by the time it gets through the courts... its a moot point. The best anyone could do is to get a TRO blocking you from doing some work which if you didn't disclose this agreement upfront in your job interview... it could get you fired.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Old Used Programmer

        Re: @John I used to work for a company that did the opposite.

        Courts in California have ruled that non-compete clauses are unenforceable. Other states may recognize. There was a big dust-up between two large companies over this. One from from out of state, but the employee was working California so the other company maintained that California law governed the situation.

    2. Myself-NZ

      Re: I used to work for a company that did the opposite.

      Faark. I remember Sol6, from a customer point of view - Currently top of the list in sh*t support!

      From memory we used to pay something like 30k per year for support/maintenance, yet when calling because one of their updates failed which the borked the system, they were so drastically understaffed, that it was a major achievement to get a call back on the same day. Usually it took a couple of days before we get get things sorted.

      A few other things - their software wanted root and admin level access to our Netware server (was a while ago), which we did not allow, but all their procedures etc assumed that was the case.

      They were used by pretty much all the large accounting firms, don't know how they managed such epic levels of service.

      Oh yes - one issue was when we upgraded our server (on Win NT by then), but their stuff shat itself - the fix was to get a Pentium enabled licence - floppy disk mailed out in the post.

      I don't know how any of their support people survived - it would have been nuts - staff turnover was fairly high as far as I could tell

  17. J.G.Harston Silver badge

    Well at least he means he don't have to search for employment for the next five years. Gurranteed job, bingo!

  18. Triggerfish

    Treat your staff nicely

    For me it also comes down to how well I have been treated, I have had a few contracts where the employers have been throughly decent human beings, and even quite generous with the little extras. I would have no qualms about helping one of them out on a small problem. In fact I had one employer who paid wages for a couple of months after just in case he needed to call about something (he never actually did).

  19. Slx

    I just borrow from the mobile phone industry model.

    I provide 4 hours of free* after contract support, but like many a mobile phone provider my out of bundle prices are roughly €14,895 per minute or part there of and subject to a €159.95 per kb data charge.

    If called while abroad, international roaming rates may apply.

    If called out of hours a peak rate charge may apply.

    Texts are charged at 2 cent per text (for up to 10 texts) out of bundle texts are €995.27

    *free does not mean free and has been redefined.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I can completely empathize!

    Unlike the chap who's the star player in the article, I was simply a salary employee who rose through the ranks (partially thanks to attrition) and pretty much had the keys to the network kingdom. The client my former employer has grew very tired of them and offered me a position. I read through the terms of my employment and absolutely nowhere did it stipulate a non-compete or transfer from their employ to a customer. it has officially been 8 months, I receive daily requests for assistance and some of my old employers PM's still try to assign me tasks in their projects. I actually gave 6 months notice and offered to spend all the time necessary to train my replacements, to my satisfaction. I was given 21 days. The company I work for now is making rumblings of not renewing the contract with my former employer. I've been thrown under the bus by former team mates so many times that I've now developed an aversion to public transportation. I've been approached by the executive management and legal departments from both companies and even after going through and writing every password down and providing a detailed explanation, in writing, of everything I've done, how I've done it and the processes, procedures and passwords I've used to complete those tasks.

    Since I was not "contract labor", I've gotten pushed around terribly and I'm really at my wits end. The whole 30 years of my career so far have been customer focused, and I've tried my best to provide a superior product to my employer to use in house or to use through their consulting business. It's not my fault that my former employer has a horrific turn over rate, nor is it my fault that the remaining former team members neither chose to follow the reams of documentation I provided or simply chose to ignore it. So I am extremely interested in how this played out, before I hire my own attorney to go for compensatory damages, from after hours support & basically baby sitting.

  21. Disko
    Boffin

    Why not

    leave the phone alone when you see it's the old shop calling? Or cut the conversation to two seconds: "I can't talk right now, send me an email." forces the other party to at least create a "paper trail", and if nothing else, somewhat formulate their request and hopefully give it a semblance of coherence. If it's a meaningful issue, they can write it down: if they can write it down they can send it: if it's answerable, that is usually a doddle, but suffering someone's ramblings on the phone, for naught, simply won't do.

    If all else fails, "I am in a meeting with the department of defense" also tends to resonate enough with the beeswax crowd to understand that you are really not available right now.

    Finally, if they really need you, they can spare a nice paper invitation on a sheet of letterhead and a friggin' stamp.

  22. rgriffith

    there were other options

    You can't be forced to work for free. I doubt the contract specified anything about compensation during the "post work" period. Seems to me like he passed up on an option for some really creative billing on his part. Would likely have need some time with a cooperative attorney -

    on call fee per second for every second of the day (seems like they did not consider on/off times)

    a per incident fee

    a per message fee

    maintenance of personal equipment on going fees

    personal training on going fees

    after hours consulting rate with minimum per incident cost

    personal transportation rate ....

    cost of recording and retaining incident information

  23. Robert A. Rosenberg

    Forced Resignation

    Yes ago I worked for a company that was bought and my position was eliminated. I was told that I could either "resign" and sign a "2 weeks notice" letter (if I wanted a-good/any recommendation) or I would be fired (and they would only say that I was fired and they could not say why) . Going the resignation route I filed for unemployment and told them that the "resignation" was to insure a recommendation. Given they circumstances I was approved (you are not normally eligible if you resign ie: The unemployment is voluntary.

  24. OzBob

    Cuts both ways

    I recently took over from a disgruntled employee who quit with 4 weeks notice and I came in from a consultancy firm for a 2 week handover. He gave some notes and feedback but also made himself available via email for queries or historical reference (eg. "when we did it last, how did you do it?"). In return, I have fired off my howtos / sample configs on automated builds, security hardening, and patching I have since developed, which were useful for him to get started in his new role.

  25. sisk

    I'm pretty sure that at least in the US you can't require someone to work without compensation, contract or no contract.

  26. DaProf

    Once again, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished".

  27. DaProf

    Maybe we should all consider handing them a "consultant contract" when we leave, with a significant hourly rate quoted as well as "right to decline" phrases.

    or something like that.

  28. F0rdPrefect

    Tapes?

    Seriously?

    I haven't seen a backup tape in years.

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