back to article Now VW air-pollution cheatware 'found in Audis and Porsches'

More Volkswagen cars have been found fitted with devices that cheat on air-pollution standards tests: the US Environmental Protection Agency says similar gadgets are installed in some Audi and Porsche models. Diesel engine hardware programmed to conform to emission limits only within lab tests have been spotted in the 3-litre …

  1. Turtle

    Parvenu.

    "While it hasn't sold as many Porsches and Audis as its more mass-market VW diesels, purchasers at the luxury end are going to be more likely to sue the firm for lying about specifications and harming the resale value of the vehicles."

    People who worry about resale value shouldn't be buying luxury items in the first place.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Parvenu.

      People who worry about resale value shouldn't be buying luxury items in the first place.

      I guess you have not spent much time around afluent people? Money is pretty much ALL they care about, most of their decisions are made on a "return on investment"-type of thought. From what they do, to what they buy, to even whom they have around them as friends and associates, most decisions are based upon what they expect to receive out of this 'transaction'.

      That's why they are wealthy.

      So yes, yes, they certainly weigh resale values in major purchase decisions; trust me, I'm IN the luxury goods business.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Parvenu.

        I guess you have not spent much time around afluent people? Money is pretty much ALL they care about, most of their decisions are made on a "return on investment"-type of thought.

        That's for moderately rich people. The really wealthy find money a rather boring topic - they have people managing that for them. It is similar to the difference between B-list and A-list celebrities: the former crave publicity, the latter avoid it because enough comes their way already, frequently via very unwanted ways.

        1. Otto is a bear.

          Re: Parvenu.

          I would really love to see an ROI calculation for a Cayenne, come to think of it almost any luxury car.

          Mind you I did one moving from an SUV to a Diesel compact, the compact paid for itself on fuel savings alone.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Parvenu.

            I would really love to see an ROI calculation for a Cayenne, come to think of it almost any luxury car.

            It's at best a TCO calculation because cars depreciate as soon as the ink is dry on the contract. The "I" in ROI stands for investment, and the only car that is an investment is an antique or some very specific luxury cars, and that usually entails not putting them on the road much.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "moderately rich"

          I hate to correct you, because you were very close: it is not the "moderately rich", it is "new money" versus "old money". The truly wealthy, those who inherit vast sums from the estates of their forefathers, don't care about money. Newly wealthy...watch their money constantly until they are of a certain age where they do a mathematical computatiion in their minds and realize that they have more money than time left on this planet. THEN they stop counting every penny.

      2. smartypants

        Some return

        Like ordinary cars, most luxury cars are not a financial investment. They're a money pit.

        The 'return' that luxury owners seek is not financial, but the enjoyment of luxury and the hope and expectation that the world will see them as successful, will envy them and so on.

        I don't think these sorts of ROI are going to be affected by an emissions test scam.

      3. Vic

        Re: Parvenu.

        I guess you have not spent much time around afluent people? Money is pretty much ALL they care about

        Actually, that's not necessarily the case.

        In my youth, I spent quite a bit of time with *properly* rich people. People who had been landed gentry for generations uncountable. And they can be quite wonderful; having always had access to all the cash they've ever needed, they don't even tend to think about money - as you or I rarely think about air. The supply is invariably sufficient.

        This was quite bizarre to me at that age - I grew up on a council estate in Southampton, yet they took me for what I was, not how much money I had.

        Those that have come into money comparatively recently, though - yes, you're absolutely right there.

        Vic.

    2. DainB Bronze badge

      Re: Parvenu.

      I'll buy Cayenne with 50% discount because of this issue. Who should I call ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Parvenu.

        Ghostbusters!

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

          Re: Parvenu.

          But will you be able to park on a yuropean supermarket car park?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Parvenu.

            But will you be able to park on a yuropean supermarket car park?

            *cough* wide bays for the disabled *cough* ..

            Joking aside, this is actually an issue if we take into account a growing obesity problem. Although, come to think of it, it sort of self-regulates - if you can't get out of the car to buy food you eventually end up with dimensions where you can, resulting in a slow oscillating model.

            Yup, if it was just about BOFH solutions we'd have it cracked :)

            Anyway, where was I? Oh, yes. Parking. See above.

            1. Otto is a bear.

              Re: Parvenu.

              Funnily enough large SUV's come with a licence to park in disabled bays, as well as their normal parent and child bays. Did you not know that. Just check any Waitrose or M & S car park.

          2. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: Parvenu.

            Of course it can park on a yuropean supermarket car park

            And the 3 surrounding it too.

    3. Steve K

      Re: Parvenu.

      I think it is more nuanced than that.

      In the UK at least, recent research has shown that many private car buyers have availed themselves of lease hire or PCP balloon (as opposed to Hire Purchase) deals when financing a car, due to the lower monthly payments available. This has favoured premium marques such as Audi/BMW/Mercedes in recent times.

      The exit to PCP deals at the end of their term is either to hand back the keys, trade in the car for a new one on a similar deal or to pay the residual value agreed when the deal was signed (less any mileage or condition related excesses).

      Therefore for PCPs in place before this story broke, the economics of the deal are already locked in - the contractual residual was agreed at inception and so any diminution in value is the problem of the Finance company rather than the driver.

      The Finance company is more likely to have exposure to more than just VAG brands, and so their exposure is diversified away to a degree anyway, particularly if the Financing cash flows (carrying a fixed interest rate) have been securitised and sold on to a wider market who will be diversified themselves. So they may not care that much.

      Steve

      1. fruitoftheloon
        Stop

        @Steve K: Re: Parvenu.

        Steve K,

        Not quite matey, about 3 yrs ago the pcp conked on our Ford S-Max, the agreed value (which we could have in theory rolled into a new contract) was quite a bit more than the previously agreed [minimum] value.

        Unfortunately we couldn't afford to 'buy' the car from Ford at the time...

        Hence anyone due to potentially 'roll-over' from one PCP contract to another for one of these affected VW/Audi/Porsche vehicles in the near future may be due a bit of a hair cut, for which they will undoubtedly seek recompense (I certaintly would!)...

        Cheers,

        Jay

        1. Alan Edwards

          Re: @Steve K: Parvenu.

          If it's worth less than the agreed value at the end of a PCP contract, just hand it back.

          Isn't there something in the contract about an agreed 'trade in' value if you get another car from the same place though? If you can combine that with a good discount on one of the unwanted models caught up in this you may end up quids-in.

          1. Kristian Walsh Silver badge

            Re: @Steve K: Parvenu.

            In the case of Volkswagen Group cars, the "finance company" that ends up taking the hit from depreciation will be... Volkswagen Group Financial Services AG, the group's leasing organisation.

            Comparison of VW's sales revenues and the leasing company's outstanding loan growth suggests that about 80~90% of buyers of the Group's products take their car on a lease from VW Group itself.

    4. fruitoftheloon
      Stop

      @Turtle: Re: Parvenu.

      Turtle,

      Eh what, may ask if you aware of the differences between price, cost and value?

      Kind regards,

      Jay.

    5. Tom 7

      Re: Parvenu.

      Almost all the new luxury cars I have been near have been purchased under some business setting or other. A few friends have second hand ones but does anyone really piss that kind of money when there are plenty of tax avoidance schemes around?

    6. Kubla Cant

      Re: Parvenu.

      People who worry about resale value shouldn't be buying luxury items in the first place.

      Why not? Who is to decide whether a person is allowed some luxury?

      Some expensive cars (mostly sports cars) are bought because the depreciation is less than that on mass-market cars.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. roytrubshaw
          Coat

          Re: Parvenu.

          "Douglas Adams skewered this one in one of the HHGG books, in which someone claims his accountant told him to buy a Porsche, but Arthur Dent knows that this is the opposite of the truth."

          <pedant>

          More likely to be the package "Reason" created by the character Richard MacDuff in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency...

          </pedant>

    7. anothercynic Silver badge

      Re: Parvenu.

      Just FYI - Audi was found to be involved very early. What *is* new is the 2016 models being included in this...

      And most of those driving luxury cars are not the ones bitching about the fuel efficiency... they *might* (just might) grumble when it comes to exchanging it for a new leather armchair on wheels.

      But overall, it's not going to affect the value too much; those who don't like the fuel efficiency drama will buy something else, those who are happy to drive the 'cheater cars' will continue to do so...

      1. Eddy Ito

        Re: Parvenu.

        It's already hit the values. It seems there are some rather good discounts on the VW brand so there may be more coming to a Porsche/Audi dealer near you.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Parvenu.

        This is news, previously the test work-around software was only acknowledged to be on the VAG group's 2.0 diesel engine that was common across all brands (not used for Porsche as far as I know). It was, I think, on all versions of the 2.0 engine from the low end 103 Kw unit to the newest 176 Kw biturbo option that replaced the 3.6 V6 as the top of the line engine in the Passat.

        This info brings in the other widely used VAG diesel, the 3.0 V6 model used extensively in the Audi/VW/Porsche line. but not (I don't think) in Skoda and SEAT. The 3.0 V6 also has multiple models, from 150 Kw to 230 Kw in the bi-turbo version. Previously VAG had said that this "scandal" did NOT apply to the V6 diesels.

        VAG are in a very expensive hole over this; there are only two real options as far as I can see to bring these vehicles into compliance over NOx emissions - a software update to reduce temperatures and pressures in the engine that will utterly nerf output and economy (especially for the higher performance versions like the bi-turbo); or an after-market catalyst injector package (probably a Urea injection system as used by BMW and Mercedes). The software option is relatively inexpensive but will cripple the vehicles performance, whereas the Catalyst option will preserve performance and economy but will cost possibly more than VW can afford.

        Maybe they'll have to go back to more petrol based engines, I actually have two VAG models, a VW and an Audi, but both petrol versions unaffected by this. Nothing wrong with the petrol options, but not particularly economical, I think the latest petrol options are significantly better though.

  2. toughluck

    Is anybody surprised by now?

    Honestly speaking, that's what pretty much anyone was expecting -- once you cheat, you go all the way.

    I won't be surprised if their turbocharged petrol engines, especially stratified injection (TSI and TFSI) were similarly affected, since they rely on the same lean burn as Diesel engines to claim the same fuel efficiency benefits with much the same problems as with Diesels.

    What's wrong with them? I don't drive German, but I appreciate that CARB and CAFEE tested the Volkswagens alongside a BMW X5 with a 3-litre Diesel engine, which met the emissions figures in and out of the lab, so that's clearly achievable.

    1. Eddy Ito

      Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

      It's not a question of if it's doable, it's a question of how much does it cost and will folks pay for it. For the prices they get for Porsche and Audi cars one wouldn't think it would be much of a problem but once a cheap "solution" is found it generally gets implemented universally.

    2. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

      Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

      I am - at how long it took...

    3. joed

      Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

      Hopefully this is not the case as I do enjoy great mpgs of tsi (all this with real MT - albeit only 5 speed - instead of some awful AT or worse yet, CVT). I'm not sure but normal gasoline vehicle catalyst converter is good enough at scrubbing both carbohydrates and NOx. And in the worst case, I can always say that the car is optimized for CO2 emissions and minimizing of fossil fuel use. While I'd like it comply with all rules I just don't agree with EPA's definition of clean emission vehicle that somehow glances over amount of fuel burned (as long as gas exiting the tailpipe is "clean" percentage wise), allows for disparities due to size and supposed purpose of the vehicle (that ends up hauling all of one occupant 99% of time) etc. All in all, it looks like the most efficient vehicles carry the most burden of rules (that can't be fulfilled withing target cost and/or performance).

      1. Eddy Ito
        Devil

        Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

        Is it legal to simply pump excess air into the exhaust to dilute the exhaust gasses? It seems the simple answer since they only look at ppm. Let's say you have a case where a turbo "leaks" from the high pressure compressor side to the low pressure post turbine side on the exhaust. If nothing else it might buy a few years more life by CARB-o-loading the EPA-filter.

        1. toughluck

          Re: Pumping excess air into exhaust and petrol catalytic converters

          Short answer, not doable.

          Long answer, all of the air goes into the engine already. In theory, you could bleed air from the turbocharger. Now, VW exceeded emissions some 40 times. You'd need the turbocharger to supply 40 times the amount of air, use just a little of it for burn and then exhaust all of it. Basically, I've just described a turbofan engine.

          --

          As for catalytic converters -- that's for naturally aspirated engines that use stoichiometric petrol ratio. If the ratio was too lean, you'd wreck the converter quite quickly.

          TSI, TFSI, and to a lesser degree, FSI engines use a lean petrol ratio. That markedly improves fuel economy, but at the same time precludes the use of classic three-way converters, and requires the use of catalytic converters for diesel engines. And yes, the implication of there being too many nitrogen oxides also holds true. Don't be surprised to see AdBlue SCR in next generation of petrol engines, too.

          BTW, this is what held back the development of lean burn petrol engines up to somewhat recently -- Volkswagen led the charge. We'll just have to see at what cost, and quite soon.

          1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

            Re: Pumping excess air into exhaust and petrol catalytic converters

            You'd need the turbocharger to supply 40 times the amount of air, use just a little of it for burn and then exhaust all of it. Basically, I've just described a turbofan engine.

            There is no way in hell you can comply with the noise portion of the regs at that point. 40:1 is an abominable bypass ratio too. The highest bypass turbofans do ~ 12:1. In either case, you can move the car on airflow alone - at that rate using any form of conventional transmission to spin the wheels becomes an auxiliary drive.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

          Yes. Some cars have a secondary air injection system that does pretty much exactly that.

          The emissions targets set by the politicians cannot be realistically achieved by the engineers. Finding ways to cheat the tests is standard practice throughout the car industry. The only unknown, until recently, is just how much the manufacturers can take the piss before the governments stop turning a blind eye and give them a slap. VW seem to have found the limit of tolerance.

    4. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

      Given that the original announcement said that Audis were affected (and Skoda and Seat), it isn't really a surprise, no. The article headline sounded more like click bait.

    5. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

      I call BULSHIT on the next person to claim that this is just "a few rogue software engineers, management did not know, ya?"

      A few rogue software engineers? In completely different engines in different parts of the company? Both budget and luxury sector? Yeah, bollocks...

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

        These engineers have their hands in EVERYTHING!

        It may be true but it would not be the "lowly engineers" but the guys sitting in on board decision, as The War Street Journal writes.

        The two men, Ulrich Hackenberg, Audi ’s chief engineer, and Wolfgang Hatz, developer of Porsche’s Formula One and Le Mans racing engines, were among the engineers suspended in the investigation of the emissions cheating scandal that sank the company’s market value by 43% since Sept. 18 and triggered a world-wide recall to refit the engines to meet clear-air standards, these people said.

        Mr. Winterkorn became chief executive and put Messrs. Hackenberg and Hatz in charge of the Volkswagen R&D group and engine development. The two engineers had worked together devising new Volkswagen cars during the critical years when the vehicle maker struggled to develop diesel engines to conform to tough U.S. nitrogen oxide emissions standards.

        Months later, in August 2007, Volkswagen canceled the licensing deal for BlueTec with Daimler because it didn’t want to use its competitor’s brand. It rebranded the company’s diesel engine TDI—for turbocharged direct injection.

        1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

          Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

          War Street journal?

          I saw what you did there

      2. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

        AFAIK, the engines are made at one plant for all models / brands that use that type of engine and they are then shipped to the relevant plants.

        It doesn't make sense to have half a dozen small plants turning out the same engine, just because it is for a different brand.

      3. Stuart 22

        Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

        "A few rogue software engineers? In completely different engines in different parts of the company? Both budget and luxury sector? Yeah, bollocks..."

        Bollocks - of course it wasn't endemic - t'was the Royal Correspondent that did it all alone. I have it on the word of the PM's own man and the magnate who put him there. Ooops, wrong thread ;-)

      4. Peter Simpson 1
        WTF?

        Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

        [Sgt Schultz]

        But ve knew NUSSING!

        Ve saw NUSSING!

        [/Sgt Schultz]

        This is a front line German corporation building premium automobiles. Germans have a well-deserved reputation for thoroughness, obsessive documentation and rigid hierarchical organization. I'm sure there are specifications, inspection forms and sign-offs for everything, including employee bathroom breaks and positions of all the labels on the vehicles, specified to fractions of a millimeter.

        Now, they expect us to believe that code enabling emissions cheating was added to production software by a few lower level employees, with nothing to gain personally, and managed to remain undetected by management in spite of requirements specifications, source control systems, software code reviews, multiple cycles of testing to those requirements specifications, and multiple years of production? (And the additional "bypass" hardware on the engine? No one thought to ask why it was there?)

        Pull the other one.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

        I wonder if it was in fact a few "rouge software engineers", i.e. they were either fully made up or commie sympathisers, or maybe even both.

    6. James Micallef Silver badge

      Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

      Not only "Is anybody surprised by now?", but "why is this news?"

      The very first press release by VAG specified cars from the Volkswagen group had this issue, it was immediately clear that all the rest of their brands were involved.

      The only bit of news for me is... Porsche make diesel-engined cars???

      1. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: Porsche make diesel-engined cars???

        For a given value of "make". In this case, they slap an outrageously expensive badge on a VW Touareg. Ker-ching!

        -A.

    7. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

      Lean burn petrol engines were effectively outlawed in the EU and USA a long time ago with legislation mandating stoichiometric fuel ratios at all times (because that's what 3-way cats need to work).

      To reinforce that point about milage: in the 1970s, an Australian Chysler Valiant (think 4-door "general lee" style Dodge charger for the USA crowd) with a 4 litre Hemi engine could easily achieve high 20s/low 30mpg. Moving to "Electronic Lean Burn" (ratios as extreme as 40:1) allowed them to push that up to low 40s but NOX emissions skyrocketed.

      The thing to bear in mind about NOX emissions is that they _only_ matter in dense or thermal inversion environments. Current emission regulations are often sledgehammers to crack walnuts when dynamic operation based on atmospheric concentrations of the offending compounds are actually practical now.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Is anybody surprised by now?

        "Lean burn petrol engines were effectively outlawed in the EU and USA a long time ago"

        I believe that there was extensive lobbying by the platinum extraction industry, who managed to persuade organisations like FoE that catalytic converters were better for "the environment". FoE were entirely and utterly technically illiterate (well, the ones I argued with were) and didn't understand that (a) cats don't work when cold which is usually in urban areas and (b) more carbon dioxide. So they supported the lobby, and the lean burn engine was killed. Whether there will be unexpected long term effects from the gradual spray of platinum (and other catalysts) dust over the roads is anybody's guess; it took long enough to realise that putting lead in petrol was less than bright (as were the kids affected by it.)

  3. Dan 55 Silver badge
    Unhappy

    "ARB and EPA will continue to conduct a rigorous investigation that includes testing more vehicles"

    Meanwhile, sad to say, the Rightpondians still seem to be hoping the problem goes away.

    Proactive regulators... Whatever next?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "ARB and EPA will continue to conduct a rigorous investigation that includes testing"

      Right? 'We don't need regulations, the Free Market will take care of everything!', indeed.

      We won't mention, of course, the children drinking melamine, and all that...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "ARB and EPA will continue to conduct a rigorous investigation that includes testing"

        "Right? 'We don't need regulations, the Free Market will take care of everything!', indeed."

        We shouldn't enforce the laws against murder because the free market will take care of that.

        You seem to confuse obeying the law with market forces or?

        Or maybe you're just confused.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "ARB and EPA will continue to conduct a rigorous investigation that includes testing"

          And you seen to confuse having a law and being obliged to obey the law - the very thing that the naive, historically-ignorant neo-conservatives always miss. Somehow, once you remove laws AND oversight, all the world will be a paradise where everyone plays by the rules. Those who don't will "get punished by the free market"...just don't count the bodies that led up to that point, please, they stain the carpets.

  4. Your alien overlord - fear me
    Angel

    Serves everyone right for not buying a Prius - talking resale values here.

    1. John Tserkezis

      "Serves everyone right for not buying a Prius - talking resale values here."

      Yeah, if you don't mind polluting the environment with the smell of smug.

      1. Mark 85
        Devil

        Smug or Nitrogen Oxide.... tough choice. I think I'll take a double of the Nitrogen please.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Prius? I'll have a double espresso, barista.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      talking resale values here.

      Yes, but wait until you see the cost to recycle them batteries

      Subsidies in large amounts for the MEP's

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm pretty sure if the VW group were doing all manufacturers will be too.

    Resale values shouldn't be affected as these same cars will still be being sold new. VW won't suddenly be able to produce a car that legitimately can meet the emissions tests so that's a way off. Even when they do I would have thought there will be some reduction in power and performance so could in fact have a positive effect on resale values of the current "cheat" models.

    1. toughluck

      Wrong. Last year when CAFEE first tested (at the behest of ICCT) a Volkswagen Jetta and Passat to demonstrate that it is possible to achieve lower emissions than Euro 6 mandated, to push the EU for even tighter regulation, they did so alongside a 3-litre diesel BMW X5 and found that the BMW does not exceed emissions, whereas the Volkswagens did -- by 20 and 35 times, respectively.

      You might not like it, but other manufacturers appear to have managed to meet the emissions goals just fine. Handwaving by Volkswagen Group, such as claiming that the testing is not representative of real world driving, will not help if other cars meet the regulations without issues. And even if they failed to meet the emissions goals in real world driving, they did not cheat to meet the goals during testing.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        "You might not like it, but other manufacturers appear to have managed to meet the emissions goals just fine. "

        On this side of the pond there have been reports that the X5 exceeds NOX limits by a substantial margin under normal conditions.

        There's speculation that various manufacturers have implemented cheats in such a way that simply plugging into the ODB2 port is enough to put them into "compliant mode"

        CAFEE ran extensive monitoring on their trips. It'd be interesting to repeat them without plugging into anything except the exhaust pipe.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        but other manufacturers appear to have managed to meet the emissions goals just fine

        Yes, not disputed......but do it for the cost of a normal family car (hint £12000 to £16000) and see how far you get

        There's a reason you get all the gadgets on high end cars first, it's called "getting back your investment before youstart losing money"

        How much are Prius' subsidised?

        1. Eddy Ito

          How much are Prius' subsidised?

          Each Prius directly is a hard number to pin down. In the US there are $2.4B in active grants for plug-in and hybrid vehicle technologies. Further there are several tax credits available to the purchaser often at both state and federal levels. The 2009 ACES Act varies the tax credit from $2500 if the vehicle meets the minimum 4 kWh and increases with battery capacity up to a $7500 maximum. In short, it looks like the subsidy on each Prius is at least $2500 and potentially larger.

      3. Ozzy

        BMW - we are not worthy

        ICCT did their own study, published in the White Paper "Real-world exhaust emissions from modern diesel cars". Among other things, they concluded:

        "High NOX emissions were observed across vehicles, regions (US and EU), manufacturers, and aftertreatment technologies." - so it's not just VW.

        And:

        "This points to the application of NOX control strategies that are optimized for the current type-approval test procedures (on the chassis dynamometer laboratory, using a standard test cycle), but are not robust enough to yield acceptable on-road performance." - so manufacturers are making cars to pass tests - who'd have thought?

        The date of this Paper? October 2014 - over a year ago.

    2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Wrong

      Even in pure EGR designs like Isuzu the real life emissions are not far from the lab. BMW, Daimler, etc have all managed emissions in real life which correspond to real life reasonably well (less than 3 times difference). There is only one other manufacturer which has an order of magnitude difference between lab and road.

      I am going to venture a guess why. This is a natural result of a company which has elevated Branding to and above the level of Engineering in a business that is by its nature engineering driven. VW is the only car company which has an EVP solely in charge of branding and at the same (or higher) level as the director of engineering.

      It is also a company which does not follow the best R&D practices where you develop something, push it out in small quantities to a particular (and usually well known) pilot brand and promote to your main stock only if it works in the field. It originally set-up Skoda/Audi this way and by sequential orders of Branding and Marketing over the years rolled back that division to the point where VW separates solely on the basis of what trim and how plasticy is your car trim. There is _NO_ pilot series and no natural "promotion to mass manufacturing" any more. Branding and Marketing also put the stake through the original idea of Skoda being the testbed for new tech from 12 years ago (that lasted as long as Fabia Mk1 and Octavia Mk1).

      As a result, any major changes as needed for example to comply with new emissions regs, end up as extremely high risk as they are not tested properly in small series on the road first. This, in addition to shiny-shiny being given higher priority than actual engineering results in a natural tendency to cheat. Nothing surprising here.

  6. Captain DaFt

    Just a few bad apples?

    Hm, they may be higher up in the tree than somebody's claiming.

  7. Huns n Hoses

    ... 'a couple of rogue software engineers'

    They sure did get around

    1. Wommit
      Pint

      Re: ... 'a couple of rogue software engineers'

      Damn, beat me to it.

    2. Mark 85

      Re: ... 'a couple of rogue software engineers'

      I'd love to hear those rogue's side of the story. I got a fiver that says it's the exact opposite. VW needs a Snowden.....

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Re: "VW needs a Snowden"

        Not really, since VW is under investigation. Whatever is going on will be found, described, ascertained and thoroughly evaluated. Then there will be measures taken. Whether or not they will be useful is another matter.

        Snowden was necessary because the NSA was never going to go under any spotlight whatsoever. Even now that we know, the NSA is carefully hiding its activities behind the iron curtain of "national security" and everything it does has been and will be repeatedly described as legal.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "VW needs a Snowden"

          Really? You want to see innocent people killed because of an egomaniac who continuously lies to the media? Thankfully a few in the media have confirmed Snowden is a liar in addition to being guilty of treason and other crimes. Be careful who you view as a hero or savior as they may be just manipulating the gullible. Thankfully authorities are doing their best to protect the masses from the constant attacks by terrorists and cyber crims. People should educate themselves and not be led like sheeple by Snowden or the clueless media because you're not going to be happen when reality bites you in the arse for being so naïve.

          As far as VW is concerned, an internal investigation suggests that between 10-20 people are responsible for the four cyl. Diesel software violations. VW has officially responded on Monday that the v6 Diesel engines used by Audi and Porsche do not contain any illegal software code and has agreed to prove this to the EPA.

          1. Mark 85

            Re: "VW needs a Snowden"

            Nice twisting of things. In my post the concept was "Snowden = whistleblower" or someone to come forward and say "here's what really happened"

    3. joed

      Re: ... 'a couple of rogue software engineers'

      One conglomerate, same vehicle platforms and the more of less same engines (with slightly modified tune to differentiate performance).

      It's amazing how the same engine block can power 170hp golf, 200hp gti and 290hp r. Few modified parts and mostly the same ECU code.

      Similarly for TDI engines (including the cheat codes).

      1. annodomini2

        Re: ... 'a couple of rogue software engineers'

        Turbos, Injectors, heads, cam profiles will be different between those petrol/gas engines.

        The diesels will have different Turbos and injectors.

    4. DropBear

      Re: ... 'a couple of rogue software engineers'

      "rogue software engineers" - Oh, they should be exceedingly easy to find - they'll be the only ones stroking white fluffy cats, surely...

  8. a_yank_lurker

    Business as usual

    Somehow I expect a lot of hot from the EPA then there will be deal signed that indirectly funnels money to the Democrats via a few shady NGOs/PACs.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Rot runs deeply

    Shortly after VW Group buys Porsche, the rot appears in the Cayenne.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Rot runs deeply

      You're totally clueless. Porsche has used the V-6 VW/Audi Diesel engine in a couple models for years just as they use the VR6 in a couple (lower priced) Cayenne models. VW buying Porsche has nothing to do with anything as VW and Porsche have worked together for the past 60+ years. Professor Porsche invented the VW Beetle.

      As far as the VW Diesel engines are concerned they emit a small excess quantity of NOx based on the U.S. emissions standards which have the lowest NOx allowed in the world, (.3g/m). Thus nine or 40 times .3 g/m is still a very low quantity of NOx and unlikely to have done any damage to the environment or humans as the sensationalized NOx emissions only occurs at intermittent points in normal driving thus it's not like these engines are actually spewing a lot of deadly emissions contrary to the poorly researched media reports.

      So we can conclude from some people's posts here that stupidity runs deep because they have failed to actually educate themselves on the facts of the incident and instead they have made meritless statements based on their personal ignorance. BTW I have no association with VW and hope the people who violated law are severely punished if they did this on their own. If management held a gun to their head then management should be held accountable and go to prison, IMNHO. No top VW management however has been shown at this time to have known of the emissions issues and there would be no reason for them to know or ask as the engineers do the development and the programmers write the software code.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Another complication

    The purchase price and resale value of Audis and Porsches is higher than vws, so economic losses and cost of replacements are higher.

    Glad that the regulators are staying on top of this. Yes, a free market solution could work in the place of regulation, but that relies on auto buyers receiving accurate, full information. VW seems to have blown that part of the free market equation.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Another complication

      Actually VW Diesel owners got better mileage and performance than the EPA required fuel economy ratings and thus saved considerable costs. Short term vehicle values may suffer but most people like their VW Diesel powered vehicles and plan to keep them. In a few years this non-story will be gone and resale values will rebound because there is literally nothing wrong with the engines other than needing a software update to comply with regulations. It's also worth noting that the V-6 Diesel engines used by Audi and Porsche in fact meet all emissions and are not in violation of EPA regulations according to a public statement by VW late Monday afternoon. If that's the case then the Audi/Porsche stories are a non issue. Even if there was some software issue a software update would immediately fix the problem so again no harm, no foul. The emissions issue on the four cyl. EA189 series VW Diesel engines has absolutely nothing to do with the free market.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Facepalm

        Re: Another complication

        Oops! Seems VW screwed the pooch on gas mileage too!

        http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/03/news/volkswagen-scandal-carbon-dioxide-fuel-consumption/index.html

  11. Likkie

    A diesel Porsche?

    How many Diesel Porsches are out there? I can't a imagine a less suitable pairing. Let face it, no one buys a Porsche for its fuel economy,

    1. joed

      Re: A diesel Porsche?

      unless you're in EU where taxes on engine displacement and gasoline skewed the market towards diesel. It was all fun and games until the rules for diesel emissions got so tough that these could not be truly met on economy car (original reason for diesel). Now, not adding the premium for additional emission systems on luxury cars is somewhat surprising, but doing so would bring undue attention to cheaper product.

      1. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: A diesel Porsche?

        A lot of people buy diesel for the low end torque, not the economy.

        My shitty little 1.5 french diesel didn't go fast but it could get up to those speeds without having to make the engine scream and it made for the kind of relaxed driving that I'd associated with 4-litre petrol lumps.

        Those will be the same people buying electric assist in large numbers when it's commonplace.

  12. PghMike

    Discovered by the EPA

    Wow, so VW didn't come clean about the Audi and Porsches, they waited for the EPA to discover the same software was running on these other cars. Did VW really not realize that all VW owned brands will be tested?

    Honestly, VW should have its imports banned for sale in the US for 5 years, just for stupidity.

    1. Slx

      Re: Discovered by the EPA

      They already addressed this. It's been in the news for weeks.

      I already have a recall notice for my Audi in Ireland.

  13. Speltier

    Show me the Code

    Oh wait... can't reverse engineer due to DMCA, so this may take a while. A smoking gun is a nice source code comment, incriminating records, or management admitting fault. Without those, the the lawyers argue about the number of angels on the head of a pin.

    Every manufacturer -- every one of them -- only puts enough effort into the engine design to meet the pollution rules. Sometimes, like the small VW diesels, the beginning design fails to meet executive targets so they cheat their way out of the problem of having a competitive engine that meets pollution rules and is on the executive schedule. Other times, the rules have enough vagueness to be bent. So the question is, how far can you bend the rules before they break?

    And did anyone hire really smart engineers who could write firmware with plausible deniability?

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not exactly as reported

    Audi and Porsche on very limited applications use the 3.0L V-6 VW Diesel engine. The EPA is not accusing VW management of knowing about the illegal test detection software or reduced emissions when the vehicles are being tested. The EPA said that VW should know (now) that the software code is non-compliant. The reported "up to nine times" the allowed NOx is only in a few operating modes. The exhaust emissions is still an extremely low quantity of NOx because the requirements are very low - in fact the lowest levels in the world. No one including the EPA has any statistics to prove that the small volume of excessive NOx released had any negative effect on people or the environment. That said VW's rogue engineers and programmers which appear to be between 10-20 people total from an independent investigation, should be held fully accountable for their violations of emissions laws.

    Let's make sure we get the facts and not a bunch of sensationalism that just confuses owners and the general public. As with the four cylinder VW Diesel engines a software update should fix the problem with a minor loss of mpg.

    As far as resale value, in the near term trade in values will be lowered than they should be. Many people are more than glad to take these Diesels off people's hands for a significant cost savings. Many plan to never have their cars updated. Others are not concerned about a loss of a few mpg which is what was determined in actual testing of the VW four cyl. Diesel engines. Some folks are looking to exploit the situation for billions if they can.

    1. Xpositor

      Re: Not exactly as reported

      " Many plan to never have their cars updated."

      Lots of my friends who own affected cars have been talking in this way. Alas, the UK government is talking about making the recall mandatory, being policed via the MOT (i.e. your call will not pass its MOT if its not had the recall applied).

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not exactly as reported

      Audi and Porsche on very limited applications use the 3.0L V-6 VW Diesel engine

      and V10 diesels in the Q7 and VW Taureg, Audi also have 1.9 and 2.7, diesel engines and a few others thrown in on smaller SEAT models

    3. JohnMurray

      Re: Not exactly as reported

      It actually makes good sense to have the software detect the difference between urban/rural and switch to a more economic setting.....they just went a bit too far [maybe][never forget the EPA is hardly an untarnished organisation].

      Doubtless they'll have many thousands claiming their health has been ruined...etc

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not exactly as reported

        VW just adjusted the duty cycle of the emissions controls too low in normal driving according to the EPA's public statements on their website. A simple software upgrade fixes the issue but there can be a slight loss in mpg of 3 mpg highway and slightly slower acceleration. The problem is that VW used emissions test detection code when they should not have so they will pay dearly for the poor decisions of a small group of engineers and programmers.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nobody expects the German inquisition!

    Our chief weapon is surprise, fear and surprise; two chief weapons, fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency!...

    I'll come in again.

  16. Breen Whitman

    In a recent study, 40 convicted pedophiles were asked questions. One of the questions was "Does the pollution from motor vehicles concern you". Of the 40, 38 answered "Yes".

    From the control group(40 non pedophiles), 40 answered "No".

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      And you bring this to our attention because ?

      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

        Intredasting.

  17. jamesb2147

    Clean mode?

    Up up down down left right left right B A Start!

  18. Hubert Thrunge Jr.
    Meh

    TDI and TSI

    The way they make diesel engines run fewer NOx emissions is to make it run hotter and on an oil burner, that means pumping in more fuel. On a petrol, you do the opposite, you lean the mixture off. So the upshot of this is the VW group diesels were found to be more economical in the real world than the figures given in the EPA tests. That set some inquisitive minds going and their tests found what we now know as test cheat mode.

    So, you bought a VAG group vehicle based on (a) its fuel consumption, (b) its performance and (c) its perceived reliability. Now you're waiting for that recall to get it remapped so it will have poorer fuel consumption, reduced performance, and potentially less reliability. You're going to rip that letter up and give them the bird aren't you?

    I know I would.

    I'd never go out to buy a car based on its emissions, I buy a car because it does everything I want. If it happened to be the cleanest thing on the planet, I don't care, that wasn't the reason I bought it.

    I do wonder how long it will be before other manufacturers are reported as non compliant.

    I bet the bods at the EPA will be looking at how they can make their test more "real world" to stop this from happening again.

    1. Gideon 1

      Re: TDI and TSI

      "The way they make diesel engines run fewer NOx emissions is to make it run hotter and on an oil burner, that means pumping in more fuel. On a petrol, you do the opposite, you lean the mixture off."

      No, in diesels, hotter burn = more NOx, but higher efficiency. Later, slower, or tailed off burn reduces NOx but reduces efficiency. Another way is to lower the compression ratio, but that makes the engine difficult to start.

      On petrol, lean mixture causes hotter burn = more NOx, but higher efficiency.

    2. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: TDI and TSI

      >"I bet the bods at the EPA will be looking at how they can make their test more "real world" to stop this from happening again."

      No! from the letter it looks like they are more concerned about the fact someone cheated (and the EPA only discovered it through the work of someone else) rather than the fact their testing was found to be deficit...

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Maybe gasoline too?

    My US model 2007 A3 3.2 quattro has some kind of mode change when driving it hard. I had suspected something for years but a long steady climb up Whitney Portal Rd in California made the change very obvious. At some point the engine growls loudly and surges in power whenever throttle is above about 75%. Normal driving doesn't cause any change like this - the length of high throttle driving needed to trigger the change can't happen on flat and straight road at sane speeds. I suspect that repeated acceleration and braking tests would, though.

    1. Slx

      Re: Maybe gasoline too?

      That sounds more like the turbo compressor kicking in. Most high performance diesels do that.

      1. ToddR

        Re: Maybe gasoline too?

        If its 3.2L its a petrol engine

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Maybe gasoline too?

      At some point the engine growls loudly and surges in power whenever throttle is above about 75%

      In the gasoline engine you have a two-stage air valve (because that's all you control with your gas pedal, the car takes care of the rest), and at 75% you're busy opening the second (larger) gate. Also, as soon as you come above 4000 rpm the engine dynamics change and it will go for power over fuel economy.

      That's pretty much standard for any Audi, nothing to worry about. Even the first 1.8 A4 I had did that, and the 4.2 (non-turbo) I have still does the same. Below 4000 rpm it's a quiet and comfortable family car, go above that and the monster under the hood wakes up and murders your fuel economy as first act of terror, then growls and slings enough torque to all 4 wheels to move a cathedral. As far as I know that's pretty standard for most multi-valve engines.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Maybe gasoline too?

        It's much more significant than intake tuning and it won't do it under normal driving. It feels like an ignition timing advance. Cruise on highway at about 45 to 60 MPH, lock in 6th gear, depress gas until pedal until it begins to touch the kickdown switch. Nothing interesting happens. Drive car very hard and repeat. Engine surges hard at 75% throttle. It feels like a trick to do well in "best of 5" acceleration tests while passing NOx tests.

        The A3 never had 3.2L and turbo options at the same time.

  20. Pascal Monett Silver badge

    And so the stain spreads

    First it was only the small 4-cylinder engine, now bigger 6-cylinder engines are also concerned.

    What's to bet that virtually all constructors are doing something like this ? Come on, am I really supposed to believe that VW is the only group that had something to improve their test results ? Especially since we now know that the engine software has to know it's being tested, since the test involves one set of wheels not rolling when power is applied, and that, in normal function, that would apparently be a cutoff situation.

    I expect more constructors and engines to be drawn into this issue.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: And so the stain spreads

      Actually, VW has already denied the allegation that the same software used elsewhere is in use in the Audis and Porsches. It's to be expected that something similar is in use but the EPA should probably start being very careful with any new allegations because they may prejudice the inevitable legal proceedings.

      Regarding a general problem: it's difficult to combine fuel efficiency with low NOx emissions seems to be borne out in the most recent tests. However, there do seem to be some exceptions. The German ADAC, itself recently tarnished putting up its "car of the year" awards to the highest bidder, has done some real world tests indicating that under test conditions about a third of diesels exceed Euro-VI NOx limits by up to 15 times, another third up to two times and one third are well within the the limits. However, real world use suggests that all vehicles regularly exceed the limits by three to four times. Source Interview on German radio.

      It also goes into detail about the additional costs for scrubbing diesel emissions and much simpler this is for petrol engines. It's a tricky problem because diesel still offers better fuel economy than petrol but the problems with NOx and soot emissions are particularly acute in urban areas.

      Given the current low oil price and the glut of diesel on the market, I can't help think that there is an interest in switching back to petrol in Europe. Long-term, however, I think we're moving towards combustion engines as battery chargers. This will allow for optimal fuel cycles independent of what power the vehicle is drawing. This is coupled with the mechanical simplicity of the electric drive train, which makes more an increasingly attractive proposition, if we ever manage to significantly increase the energy density of batteries.

  21. &rew
    Flame

    Numbers and figures, please

    Dear Journalists,

    Please give us some facts and figures, rather than the nebulous and unhelpful "seven times higher than allowed". I have heard mumblings about the EPA having set ridiculously low targets for NOx emissions on diesel motors, but I do not know what levels are deemed harmful to environment and humans, nor what amounts are actually produced. Do the same emissions targets apply to massive diesel power stations, where eking out every last bit of efficiency saves tonnes of fuel used and CO2 emitted? Has the EPA, knowing that it's pretty much an either/or situation regarding fuel economy and NOx emissions done some sort of analysis on the impact of extra fuel consumption versus NOx output?

    While you're at it, can we have some comparisons with some other vehicles which aren't currently the subject of an investigation, to see how well other engine manufacturers are doing, and whether there seems to be anything fishy going on elsewhere?

    Thanks,

    Reader concerned about reporting facts, rather than opinion and vox-pops.

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Numbers and figures, please

      Actual numbers and figures are largely absent from the EPA open letter, the "up to 9 times" is a direct quote from this letter, the only hard number seems to be the length of the FTP 75 test at 1,3720 seconds...

      Which suggests that the EPA doesn't really want to go into hard details as that might undermine it's "Disgusted from Tumbridge Wells" outrage at VW's "Alleged violations"...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Numbers and figures, please

      .3g/m is the NOx limit in the U.S. which is the lowest in the world. So nine times or forty times is still a very low volume of pollutants and the peak numbers are intermittent not continuous. The VW Diesel tested with and without compliance showed a 3 mpg highway decrease and .6 seconds slower zero to sixty times, thus no major issues with emissions or engine performance when in full compliance.

      On Monday VW officially stated that there is no illegal software code in the V-6 Diesel engines used by Audi and Porsche and VW reps are meeting with the EPA to show that these V-6 Diesel engines are in full compliance.

  22. Chris G

    Hammer

    If I were a yank car maker I would support lobbying to get Volkswagen hammered into the ground until their shares were being given away, then I would buy them out.

    Naughty or nice the Veedub group has some good stuff.

  23. Dieter Haussmann

    Really annoys me that they call this a gadget and a device that has been installed.

    It is just a lookup table of values and quotients in some software.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Correct

      Yes it is simply a software calibration issue with one exception. VW used a series of sensors to deduct when an emissions test was being conducted so that the ECU operated the emissions controls at full capacity. Having the test detection software is technically a "defeat device" according to emissions laws. "Defeat device" is an EPA term which unfortunately implies a hardware type device but in this case it is software programming that is noncompliant.

      The media has done a poor job of explaining the real issues and what is required to fix the vehicles, which is a simple software upgrade in most cases. BTW, VW has officially stated late Monday that the V6 diesel engines do not have any improper ECU software code and they are meeting with the EPA to resolve the misunderstanding of the V6 diesel operation which VW claims is fully compliant. Audi and Porsche use the V6 diesel engines in relatively low numbers compared to other engines.

    2. toughluck

      Dieter, that's understandable, but on the other hand, adding new terms to cover software cheating would make it possible for Volkswagen to weasel out on the technicalities since software cheats were not expressly forbidden when the cars were first tested.

      As it stands, the proper umbrella term for these is 'defeat devices' which is what actually enabled EPA to have a case against VW.

  24. Mike 137 Silver badge

    Vorsprung durch

    Betrugerei?

  25. IanDs

    Just how low the NOx emissions are with and without the cheat software is kind of irrelevant, the issue is that such devices are explicitly illegal and VW broke the law. Not liking the law or "everybody does it" isn't an excuse for deliberately breaking it or whining if you get caught, just like speeding -- if you get caught, 'fess up and pay up.

    Every time I hear the term "rogue engineer" in this story it makes my blood boil. The chance of middle and upper VW management not knowing about and approving this type of defeat device is precisely zero, regardless of whether what started it off was an engineer saying "hey, I know how we can pass the emissions limits without urea injection" or a manager saying "come on guys, you gotta find me a way to pass the emissions tests without urea injection 'cos we've publicly said we don't need it and it's too expensive".

    Finding documented proof of how far up the chain this went might be more difficult, this is the type of thing where people are often given verbal "don't put anything in writing" instructions so there can be some chance of deniability -- like the phone hacking scandals, nobody believes the denials of Rebekah Brooks and the like but if they say "I didn't know" or "I can't remember" enough times they get away with it.

    The suspicion now must be that having found this in two completely different VW group products, it's in all of them -- after all, once you've found something that lets you pass the tests and save a shedload of money, why wouldn't you use it everywhere?

    Whether other manufacturers are doing the same thing remains to be seen, but there's no proof yet that this is the case. Mind you, do you believe that VWs competitors didn't know what they were doing, given the way people move between companies? If they knew and weren't doing it themselves you'd have thought they'd have blown the whistle on VW, which suggests that they did know and kept quiet because they were doing it too...

    1. TheWeenie

      Every time I hear the term "rogue engineer" in this story it makes my blood boil. The chance of middle and upper VW management not knowing about and approving this type of defeat device is precisely zero, regardless of whether what started it off was an engineer saying "hey, I know how we can pass the emissions limits without urea injection" or a manager saying "come on guys, you gotta find me a way to pass the emissions tests without urea injection 'cos we've publicly said we don't need it and it's too expensive".

      Finding documented proof of how far up the chain this went might be more difficult, this is the type of thing where people are often given verbal "don't put anything in writing" instructions so there can be some chance of deniability -- like the phone hacking scandals, nobody believes the denials of Rebekah Brooks and the like but if they say "I didn't know" or "I can't remember" enough times they get away with it.

      So from this we can assume that:

      1) Governance in the VW group is inadequate and the management weren't aware, and every component of every vehicle they produce should he investigated to make sure that they're fit for purpose;

      2) Governance in the VW group is adequate and management were aware, in which case the individuals who sanctioned the change should be fired;

      3) VW employs engineers who are dumb enough not to get everything in writing and act on verbal instructions even when they know that what they were being asked to do was amoral and had potentially catastrophic ramifications, in which case the engineers and the management should be fired.

      Most organisations won't even let you take a midday dump without raising a change and having half the management team sign off on it. Are we really supposed to believe that some "rogue" engineers can commit several hundred lines of code into the engine management software used in hundreds of thousands of engines worldwide without anyone higher-up knowing about it?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      An internal investigation suggests between 10-20 people involved

      Executive level management in my experience would never have a reason to know about software code or doubt what the engineers tell them until some issue develops. With a VW internal investigation suggesting that only 10-20 people within VW knew of the four cylinder Diesel software issue, it's highly unlikely anyone else inside or outside the company knew of the issue. Unlike the media and technically clueless talking heads, without irrefutable proof I would not accuse VW executives of knowing about the software when they had no real reason to know or even suspect an issue. The difference between compliance and noncompliance emissions in this case is a minute change in the emissions controls operating duty cycles. Dealing with the facts is far less sensational than the ill informed rumors and conjecture.

      1. toughluck

        Re: An internal investigation suggests between 10-20 people involved

        But what does that imply? That 10-20 people can effectively bring down a company with over half a million employees worldwide?

        That would mean terrorist organizations would be far better off training and injecting engineers in key positions at various companies across the globe in a concerted effort, which would produce much more mayhem than downing a few aircraft.

        1. Vic

          Re: An internal investigation suggests between 10-20 people involved

          That would mean terrorist organizations would be far better off training and injecting engineers in key positions

          They'd have been more effective taking out cheap mortgages a few years ago. That pretty much brought the world to its knees...

          Vic.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: An internal investigation suggests between 10-20 people involved

          Do people understand that the minor excess exhaust emissions exhibited in the VW Diesel engines amounts to nothing but an embarrassing public relations situation that will cost VW and it's customers probably $50 BILLION or more when there is no real damage to anyone? If you bought one of the VW four cylinder Diesels affected you actually enjoyed better fuel economy than the EPA advertised rating and the minute difference in exhaust emissions world wide "may" according to the environmentalist have cost six to forty deaths over a period of 8 years these vehicles have been in operation.

          Considering on average 100 people die everyday in the U.S. from traffic accidents of which more than likely 90% could have been prevented had the vehicle operator obeyed the laws and eliminated texting and talking on their cellphone. In addition if the DUI drivers and crack addicts behind the wheel were removed from operating a vehicle more than 90% of all vehicular deaths that occur in the U.S. could be eliminated yet no one is suing the cellphone companies, the DUI operators, the telephone companies, etc. to stop this insanity. So while the above entities are the principal cause of 100 vehicular deaths daily, seven days per week, year round, every year, nothing is done to stop the insane carnage yet the media goes postal over VW or some other auto company selling a product with some minor defect.

          The media is duping the gullible public for huge financial profit. You don't see the media asking for federal investigations into the 40,000 deaths per year in the U.S. primarily caused by people talking on cellphones, violating vehicular traffic laws, driving DUI, etc. You don't see the media explaining how terrible it is to be killing 100 people per day everyday when this is almost entirely preventable. Yet the media and the clueless talking heads in DC and elsewhere are "piling on" VW as if they were ax murderers or worst - elected politicians. Does anyone think the House Speaker should have engaged in inappropriate sex with a teenager and then lied to the FBI and paid bribe money to keep it all quiet? Maybe those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

          Those in the media with a technical clue (and there are a few) should explain to the public (some have) that the VW scandal is completely over blown and not the end of the world or even a significant event other than to those who can profit from making it a big deal. Almost no major media has reported the extremely low excess actual volume of NOx in the exhaust is insignificant, yet it is. Instead the media uses expressions such as "up to nine times" or "up to forty times" the NOx allowed which sounds horrible until you understand the U.S. has the most stringent exhaust pollution requirements for passenger Diesel cars in the world - by virtue of political agendas that have nothing to do with public health or a better environment. Thus forty times .3 of a gram per mile of NOx is a very insignificant volume of pollutant and that has actually never occurred. Mainstream media can't be bothered getting the story straight.

          IMNHO it's sad that it is so easy to dupe and mislead the public on most matters. Probably not one in a million people will read this post and actually do some fact checking to see that the VW scandal which appears to have been orchestrated by a small group of 10-20 rogue VW employees, could end up being perceived by the masses as some outrageous evil act against society when it's literally a very insignificant lapse in judgment by a small group of people who have damaged not only the VW brand but the public's perception of the company, it's hundreds of thousands of dedicated employees and it's products. You don't hear many in the media reporting that a simple software upgrade can fix the minute emissions issue, but it's true. You don't hear many in the media quantifying the minute difference in exhaust pollutants by volume. Instead you get sensationalism, misinformation, false conclusions and a ton of technical ignorance that hurts and confuses consumers, new car dealers and VW owners as a group even though none of these entities has done anything wrong.

          VW should certainly be held accountable for all violations of emissions laws but they should certainly not be persecuted for the rogue acts of a small group of people within the company. The 300+ U.S. class action lawsuits will result in lawyers reaping millions in legal fees per law firm while VW owners are likely to get a small financial compensation for any perceived loss resulting from the mass hysteria in the media over a trivial issue. While current VW Diesel vehicle resale values have dropped, in a few years they will return as the vehicles will comply with all emissions requirements and perform just fine as they did previously.

          At the end of the day however many people will lose their jobs as a result of the cost being charged to VW for a trivial violation of emissions laws while the lawyers enjoy jackpot justice and windfall profits from suing everyone they can. It may come as a surprise to many but increasing unemployment and handing hundreds of millions in legal fees to lawyers is not a good economic strategy. People all over the world will be injured by the media's hyperbole and mission to extract revenge for a minor violation of the exhaust emissions laws. Most people have no clue at all how insignificant the emissions violations are nor are they ever likely to learn this from mainstream media because the media is clueless and callous for the most part. Thus ignorance really is bliss for many.

          1. toughluck

            @AC one hour ago

            I'm not sure whether I should address you by your proper name, Mr. Horn, but I guess I shouldn't.

            That "minor excess exhaust emissions exhibited in the VW Diesel engines" is 40 times higher than the limit. It's worse than NOx emissions of most engines 25 years ago when there were no emission standards limiting nitrogen oxides.

  26. PhilipN Silver badge

    "... clean air for all Americans ..."

    Why does every petty American official have to talk so grand, as if he/she is running for fucking President? Who the hell is listening to such drivel?

    And why does anything which smells foreign suggest an attack on all good clean values of the pure US of A and all right-thinking upright citizens of the Leader of the Free World?

    1. Dan Paul

      Re: "... clean air for all Americans ..."

      For the record, we hear the exact same "drivel" from all of Europe and Britain's politicians and because we now know for sure that European governments specifically go after all American companies to give European ones a competitive boost.

      And by the way, too effing bad that your employer VW got caught cheating on emissions. Hope they go belly up.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "... clean air for all Americans ..."

        For the clueless... VW has a factory in Chattanooga, TN and employs many people in the U.S. They also indirectly provide many jobs for vendor supplier companies in the U.S. Just because a small number of VW engineers and programmers violated emissions laws does not mean the world is coming to an end or that any thinking person would want to undermine the economic and personal well being of the U.S. or Europe and the millions of people who work for VW, Porsche, Audi and the parts suppliers. Blowing this minor emissions failure out of proportion for financial gain by the media and by paid liars is a disservice to the world. Instead of talking smack people should educate themselves so they understand the facts of the situation and how totally insignificant the minor excessive emissions is in the grand scheme of life.

        I have no association with VW but I have a brain and I use it. Other folks might want to try using their brain once in awhile instead of talking foolishness.

  27. Slx

    Who the hell drives a diesel Porsche ?!?!

    Isn't that some kind of automotive sacrilege?

    1. TeeCee Gold badge

      Yes it is.

      Unfortunately Porsche have now achieved the sort of sales levels where most of them are bought by people who want a car that says "Porsche" on it, rather than an actual Porsche[1].

      [1] i.e. Rock-hard ride, handling sponsored by the Darwin Awards[2], a sintered racing clutch[3] with all of 2mm travel between "out" and "fully engaged", terrifying acceleration, slightly less than sod-all by way of luggage space, a cabin that the Spartans would complain about, in-car entertainment provided by the fearsome racket from the engine / exhaust and a heater that doesn't.

      [2] i.e. It'll kill anyone stupid enough to cane one without knowing how to drive it properly.

      [3] This shark was actually jumped when they fitted the first automatic transmission. Been downhill since then.

      1. Kubla Cant

        a sintered racing clutch[3] with all of 2mm travel between "out" and "fully engaged"

        I think you're wrong about the clutch. I drove a 911 SC for six years. It was a 1981 model, so well inside the "lethal Porsche" era. The clutch had plenty of travel and was reasonably light. It used to be commonly said at the time that anyone of either sex could easily drive a 911 in traffic.

        In other respects, I mostly agree with your comments.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Isn't that some kind of automotive sacrilege?

      When I was involved in such things, many years ago, the company I worked for had a racing tractor. With a Diesel, of course, to get more power you just add more turbo or supercharge and increase the fuel supply until something gives out (I simplify, but that's it.)

      Great was the rejoicing one Monday when, at the weekend, the company tractor had beaten the guy whose tractor had a Merlin engine - exact details were highly confidential but it was believed that the company tractor engine had achieved 5.8 atmospheres boost from its supercharger.

      It isn't sacrilege if it wins.

  28. ravenviz Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    pumps out up to nine times the allowed amount

    How many?

  29. slinkywizard

    Not seen any Japanese manufacturers implicated yet. My motorway oil-burner is a Mazda 2.2 Skyactive diesel, and you can see instantly when that is doing all it's emission/EGR stuff - as the fuel economy on a motorway run drops from the usual 50mpg, down to around 30mpg. It's the only diesel I've driven where it's that obvious what it is doing...

    1. toughluck

      German ADAC (or maybe TÜV) tried to finger Nissan and Citroën and accused them of cheating on the tests, but they actually never presented their data, and apparently managed to do a comprehensive test among all makes and models within a week, since they presented their flawed findings on 2nd of October, which was less than two weeks since the scandal erupted.

      Not to mention that they would not be able to replicate the tests fully. It's possible they managed to trap some cars in a loop that had them emit too high NOx, but they didn't present the methodology nor actual findings.

  30. Widgetbox

    Well it's been going on for a while

    I used to have an old British sold 911 - 1982 vintage. There was a mechanical device plugged into the exhaust system which was designed to "dilute" the exhaust gases. Anyone aware of this would remove it on old Porsches as it reduced the power a bit.

    I kept the bag of bits (not a lot of software in 1982) all the time I had the car.

    So no - not new...

  31. unwarranted triumphalism

    Now I've seen it all

    Motorists pretending to care about pollution.

    Newsflash: no one believes you.

    1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

      Re: Now I've seen it all

      I really need to stick a HOWTO to El Reg trolling on the Net somewhere.

      The only thing you're doing right is putting so little effort in that is actually becomes insulting, but you should aspire to some sort of standard.

      Or maybe we ought to write a trolling RFC, that could actually be quite entertaining :).

      1. unwarranted triumphalism

        Re: Now I've seen it all

        Good for you and your incisive analysis.

        Do try not to take out your frustration on any nearby pedestrians, there's a good chap.

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Who the hell drives a diesel Porsche ?!?!

    Isn't that some kind of automotive sacrilege?

    It's not as weird as it appears. Audi created a diesel racing car which has proceeded to produce impressive wins from its maiden race onwards. Diesels are not hard to tune - the challenge is more managing pressures that make petrol engines look positively wimpy.

    The dominance of the new diesel powered Audi was such that the racing rules were changed to give the competition a chance to catch up, much like when the Audi Quattro was introduced.

    For the rest I agree: a Porsche and fuel economy don't seem a comfortable fit :)

  33. Ilmarinen
    Stop

    Cheatware?

    Apologies for being late to the lynching - but have we established that anyone "cheated" ?

    Or did they just comply with whatever stupid regulations that the politicos/big greens diktated, and then reverted to normal outside mandatedtestland?

    A bit like politicians expences - or worse than that (Jim) ?

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Maybe not

    VW on Monday issued an official statement that there is no unacceptable code in the ECU software on the V-6 Diesel engines in any of the VW, Porsche or Audi vehicles. Since VW would be fools to lie at this stage of the investigation, it's likely that what the EPA is claiming to be a violation is in reality an actual allowed cleaning cycle for the CAT and not an actual violation of the regulations. VW has agreed to discuss the matter in detail with the EPA so that everyone is on the same page. So at this point we don't know for sure if VW has actually violated any emissions regulations with their V-6 Diesel engines, contrary to media reports.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Maybe not

      Hey! Don't you go and bring any of those, those, "fact" things in here to ruin a perfectly good rant.

      Sjeez, some people..

      :)

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