back to article WinPhone community descends into CANNIBALISM and WOE

Windows Phone fanbois are turning on each other in an online orgy of recrimination. So says Daniel Rubino of unabashed fan site Windows Central – formerly Windows Phone Central. Rubino made the observation in a candid post entitled: “The Windows Phone community is imploding”. “The tone today from many is dire,” he laments. “ …

  1. James 51

    So, how long till the burning platforms memo is dusted off?

    1. Phil_Evans

      I think Amazon have the nose on that with their co-incidentally named 'Firephone'. Fits nicely with your comments and probably sets the agnda for anything non-IOS and Droid for the long term.

      MSFT had the world in their hand on this with CE. They could be exactly in Apple's position on Mobs today had they 'imagineered'. But then they just step onto the next rake and get a smack in the chops instead.

    2. Bob Vistakin
      Pint

      2016 apparently.

  2. Adair Silver badge

    Windows/Apple...

    in the end it's not about users interests, it's about shareholder's interests. It's as simple as that. Then all you have to factor in is the human/institutional capacity for hubris and fucking up and you have the whole picture.

    1. dajames

      Re: Windows/Apple...

      in the end it's not about users interests, it's about shareholder's interests. It's as simple as that.

      No, it's never as simple as that. If the users' interests aren't served there will be no users, and that can hardly be good for the shareholders' interests.

      Yes, the ultimate goal is to pay dividends to shareholders, but to do that you have to sell something that users want ... or, at least, are prepared to pay for.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Windows/Apple...

        "the only valid purpose of a firm is to create a customer"

        (Peter Drucker)

        Something that in the modern economy if often little understood. The stock market made some people think value can be created out of nothing - just it's "virtual" value that can disappear as fast as it been created (unless you're so clever to sell it to someone not so clever, in exchange for true money) - while "true" value last for much longer.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Windows/Apple...

        Also see:http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/04/01/is-delighting-the-customer-profitable/

      3. Adair Silver badge

        Re: Windows/Apple...

        Yes, but that is only adding detail to my basic point. The ultimate interest is the money, i.e. the shareholder's interest's. Everything else bows down to that; the 'customer's interest's' are merely a function of the 'shareholder's interest's.

        A charity or not-for-profit can put other interest's front and centre, but a capitalist venture faces enormous challenges and economic cultural pressures to conform to the imperative to serve the interests of those whose capital is at stake. That, after all, is the essence of the game.

        1. photobod

          Re: Windows/Apple...

          Agreed. It's a matter of separating aims and objectives.

          - the true aim of any business is to make money. That is the sole reason for it's existence.

          - the objectives of any business are the means to achieve that aim.

          Making profit is an aim.

          Offering products or services people want to buy is an objective.

          Keeping the customer happy is an objective.

          Despite what they may claim, no business *ever* puts the customer first. That would mean pleasing the customer becomes the aim rather than an objective.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Angst

    I'm not feeling any angst, and I'm a winphone owner.

    Is this another one of those storm-in-a-forum things? The majority of winphone users being either happy with what they've got, or are about to change for something else but certainly not having a go at one another about it...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Angst

      Just to be clear, you're a winphone 10 user?

    2. 0laf

      Re: Angst

      That's probably why MS hates you, because you're not a rabid fanboi willing to sacrifice your firstborn to buy the latest phone.

      MS doesn't want buyers it wants worshippers just like Apple.

      But it ain't going to get them, A winphone like a windows desktop is a tool and people generally don't worship tools.

      It's shame. I really like my Nokia 920, I liked winpho 8.1 even thought I hated Windows 8.1

      If they cock it up I don't know what I'll get next.

      1. LucreLout

        Re: Angst

        and people generally don't worship tools.

        In a world where Kanye West wants to run for President, I feel I must disagree with your hypothesis.

        1. Anonymous Custard
          Headmaster

          Re: Angst

          In a world where Kanye West wants to run for President, I feel I must disagree with your hypothesis.

          He said worship, not vote for. Unfortunately no matter where you are, it seems to be universal that the choice on the ballot paper will all be tools of one sort or another (West, Trump, McAfee to say the least).

      2. nematoad
        Windows

        Re: Angst

        "A winphone like a windows desktop is a tool and people generally don't worship tools."

        I don't know.

        Donald Trump is a right tool and some people apparently worship him!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Angst

          Question is this:

          Will the Up(down)grade to Winphone10 be a forced update or can I just tell M$ to fuck off and leave my phone on Win8. The availability of blAndroid apps doesn't fuss me one iota..

    3. Franco

      Re: Angst

      It absolutely is a storm in a forum. Almost every negative post on Windows Central is met with 5 saying submit feedback if you have an issue, rather than moaning about it here, and don't complain if Technical Previews aren't flawless or feature complete.

      Most of the negativity seems to be coming from the gap between preview builds to be honest. 10536 is supposed to released to the Fast Ring today, so guess what I'm doing tonight. :-)

    4. dogged

      Re: Angst

      > Is this another one of those storm-in-a-forum things?

      Yes. Windows Central is weird. It's about the only place (either virtual or real) where MS actually has fanboys. And just as every other type of fanboy, they're fucking idiots. Honestly, MS is better off being treated like a mildly annoying utility company like Scottish Water or nPower. Or like Tefal or Panasonic. You might use their stuff but you don't get all excited about it.

      It's also not the first time AO has "reported" on stupidity in one MS-based forum as if it were an epidemic sweeping the entire tech world. In this case it's just some stupid kids whining about not being able to buy a new "flagship" phone as if they can't read Facebook or Twitter or watch porn on any of the existing phones. Or, god forbid, make a bloody phone call.

    5. John P

      Re: Angst

      Have you tried WinPhone 10?

      WP8 is the first mobile OS I have actually liked using. WP10 currently looks like a cheap Android imitation, most if not all of the UI features of WP8 that I like are gone or on the way out. I sincerely hope they make some drastic changes before release, but I think that is unlikely at this point.

      I'm not liking the way this is going...

    6. L05ER

      Re: Angst

      plenty of angst here... but some of it has died down from the loss of social integration with winphone 8.

      sadly the writing has been on the wall since 7.5, microsoft created an amazing phone OS that was faster at getting things done than any other... and has since hobbled it in an effort to play "me too".

      while i'm very angry at what they've done to winphone... i'm not about to go after other users(?).

      time to prepare for another two years with my 1020 and order a replacement battery.

      1. Vortigern

        Re: Angst

        oh... I've not tried 10 yet but had good hopes with it being able to do android apps.

        I think MS have just bought into the Nokia ethos... even since Simbian days, the next iteration of phone and/or OS took away good or innovative features like WP8 to 8.1 took away the cloud photo integration and unified messaging.

        But eg. I remember going N85 to N8 took away funky features like "Say Caller's Name" and a host of other stuff which had seemed to make them stand out from competitors at the time.

        They need the old Nokia ethos where they would make something good and people would like it rather than chasing what they think people like or even worse asking them (wasn't it a Nokia guy who said people would always say they want the same just bigger/faster so pointless asking)

        1. Dan 55 Silver badge

          Re: Angst

          You must have had problems finding it, because my Belle N8 had Say Caller's Name, it was great when you set up a car profile, enabled it for just this profile, and let it automatically connect to the car's handsfree via a Bluetooth connection.

          I don't believe any of the current big three mobile OSes can even do this.

          1. ROC

            Re: Angst

            I believe my Lumia 640 (WP 8.1 Update 2) is doing just that with my Ford's MS Sync (base level, not the "nightmare Touch"), although I have not had enough calls to be sure that I am remembering correctly. It definitely does speak source and content with text messages over the car's speaker (but usually not clearly enough for my impaired hearing, so I usually kill the vocalization before it gets far along...).

    7. ntevanza

      Re: Angst

      Same here. I have iPhones and Androids, and I tend to use the WinPhone where possible, which is anything not work related.

      If WP 10 is rubbish, that will be a shame. But you can 1. not upgrade or 2. get a new phone. WinPhones cost 100 of your local currency, so it's not like there's a big sunk cost to justify.

      The prospect of going back to Android is certainly no worse than going down the motorway services and putting your dick through a hole in the wall. How bad could it be?

      iOS is okay if you're not paying for it yourself, or bought enough Apple shares to get the 40% rip-off back in capital gains, and are never further than 60 feet from AC power.

      To get back to the subject, MS has a good record of not breaking stuff that works... except in mobile. Oh shit.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Angst

        I upvoted because of the dick/hole jibe. It's Friday.

  4. ColonelClaw

    "Microsoft created an astonishingly good platform"

    That's a brave statement, if I ever saw one.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Have you owned one? They're really good ( except for the lack of apps ). I'm on my second ( Lumia 640XL bought last week, previously Lumia 820 bought two years ago ).

      Hopefully the android compatibility will mean we can have the apps, as long as they don't ruin the rest of the system.

    2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Maybe it's a marmite OS. But I'd say it is very good. Particularly for the low marketshare. I set my Mum up with hers, and she's barely asked a question on how to use it. There's no way that would be true of Android, which can be very confusing at times.

      Win Phone is still "unfinished". There are a few rough edges they bloody well ought to have ironed out by now. But it's much better at handling contacts and emails than the iPhone. Or stock Android. I'm aware that with 'Droid you can always find another app out there, although that can be frustrating as there are so many to choose from. I remembe porting my sister-in-law's stuff between Android phones, and I think I had to download 6 different apps, just to move her text messages across. 4 didn't work properly (all had 4 star reviews), and of the 2 that did, one only did MMS and the other only did SMS. That was 2.3 though, I hope that Android has improved in that area by now.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Perhaps it is, but I have a feeling that most people who don't like it have never actually used one for more than a couple of minutes. Maybe I'm wrong, it's been known to happen.

      2. Richard Taylor 2

        I set my Mum up with hers, and she's barely asked a question on how to use it.

        As did I. I did a little customisation, but a large bright screen, dirt cheap, OK battery life and very easy to use for an 80 year old who just need to make calls (originally - large screen makes it easy for clumsy fingers). She is even using it for small amounts of web browsing - which has amazed the family, children and grandchildren alike.

        After a telephone failure I left her my iPhone (5) (and reverted to the trusty Nokia 6310i (see other legends for the week). ). While I'm hanging on to my iPhone, she needs little that it offers and the Nokia/MSFT offering gives her all for much much less than a 6s whose only advantage for her would have been the lightning connector (symmetry has a lot going for it - but a bright pink spot on the USB cable and some practice has mainly solved that problem) and the larger screen.

    3. dogged

      Only if you never used it.

    4. Terry 6 Silver badge

      Not brave at all.

      Microsoft haters will snipe and perhaps genuinely refuse to believe, but the current Winphone is really nice to use. And looks good too.

      It lacks the vast range of crappy "apps", true.

      But it is a good range of devices.

      Microsoft's ability to throw out the baby and keep the bathwater is getting close to legendary.

      ( LIke the pig's dinner that is the Win 10 version of a start menu).

    5. Paul Shirley

      Oh, I'm sure there are some fans who genuinely believe it.

      It's completely possible for better tech to fail by being prohibitively costly or have low availability - but neither apply here. This time there just aren't enough people that think it's an 'astonishingly good' anything to succeed. Shouting a lot from positions of supposed influence (like say, news site editors) is no substitute for willing customers.

      I'm not sure Andrew is ready yet to accept Microsofts Win8/10/WP strategy has nothing to do with what we need, it's a cynical strategy to impose what's good for Microsoft and only Microsoft. They couldn't push a phonified OS on desktop users so now they'll try it the other way. Eventually they'll either die or do the right thing and use the right OS on each class of device instead of the jack-of-all-trades cockup we're seeing now.

      1. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

        "I'm not sure Andrew is ready yet to accept Microsofts Win8/10/WP strategy has nothing to do with what we need, it's a cynical strategy to impose what's good for Microsoft and only Microsoft.

        Of course it is. As everyone (and not just fanbois on fansites) has rumbled by now.

        1. Anonymous Custard

          The "Marmite OS" sums it up quite nicely.

          For those who want a phone to actually be a phone (a communications device for calls, plus SMS and email) then WinPhone is great. Nicely focussed (the rose-tinted positive spin of restricted app availability) but more to the point rock solid and reliable, it just gets on with what it should be doing.

          But of course for those who want it as a tablet/laptop replacement then it of course fails, due to the self-same lack of apps etc. In that arena it's never going to replace and iOS or Android device.

          So yet again MS are suffering from producing a product and then trying to market it as something else (or it being seen as such by the market) in the same way they did with Surface being a laptop-replacement vs being an iPad or other tablet replacement/competitor. And now with WinPh10 they seem to be trying to change their target and be a jack-of-all-trades across both, and like Surface end up mastering none.

          Speaking as a WinPh8.1 user (on my company HTC 8X) I can say I'm quite happy with it as a phone, which I will miss if WinPh10 screws things up like it looks like it will. And for tablet stuff, there's my Nexus7 also fairly happily filling that role (albeit with some signs of showing its age now).

        2. John Sanders
          Thumb Up

          And that is why...

          One should not pay attention to anything MS does outside the monopoly.

          MS sseems to be unable to compete in equal terms and seem to throw shit at walls to see what sticks.

          Im mobile in particular there is something that most people miss or give enough importance.

          People do not run Android or iOS, people run applications in Android and iOS, one has the back of most of the industry and it is endlessly flexible, the other a restrictive premium product.

          Microsoft has no flexibility and no premium, only restrictions.

          What is happening to Windows mobile is what happened to Windows RT.

    6. dajames

      Not actually bad ...

      "Microsoft created an astonishingly good platform"

      That's a brave statement, if I ever saw one.

      I was certainly astonished at how good a platform they'd created -- especially with their record -- it was actually not bad.

      Not as good as an iPhone, or Android, or Blackberry, or the Palm Pre (back when there was such a thing) ... but it was actually usable.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows CE

    Was a good product. Companies loved it and brought it in droves.

    It had manufacturers like symbol behind hardware solutions for logistics. It could be developed with Visual Studio .Net CE.

    Easy to integrate within your IT infrastructure, and with plenty to power your corporate solution needs.

    However, there where some issues with the software that where never sorted, and then, when things should have been stabilized and improved with new and better models, the whole platform was just fazed out.

    They had the opportunity to grab the market that Blackberry captured, and lost it.

    When the iPhone arrived, it was a storm and they just counldn't handle the market evolution. Compound to tha the woes of Compaq / HP (their major manufacturer), and you have a a recepie for a perfect storm.

    And like they said, the rest is hysteria (pun intended).

    1. DropBear

      Re: Windows CE

      Windows CE always looked really, really weird to me (even back then) with its "tiny windows" feel - at least compared to other PDA OSes like Palm OS which seemed to be much closer to the feel of a smartphone today.

      1. ROC

        Re: Windows CE

        Actually, it was pretty useful in the Handheld PC (HPC) form factor of the NEC MobilePro 780/900 and smaller HP Jornada 72x models. Instant-on, real keyboards (although the Jornada's were definitely cramped, where the MobilePro's were my dream for class note-taking with Pocket Word). I would love to see their form factor revived with the rumored Surface Phone as a 6-inch phablet with Touch style of keyboard cover (and bootable to Linux, and a Trackpoint to make my dream complete...).

    2. John Sanders
      Holmes

      Re: Windows CE

      You can not be everything to everyone all the time.

      And MS does that all the time.

      In my opinion (as bad as anyone else's) they should stop making consumer products.

      And I mean phones, consoles, mp3 players and the like.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Windows

    Should be a new build of Windows 10 mobile today

    Looking forward to it! Magical and game-changing

    1. hplasm
      Gimp

      Re: Should be a new build of Windows 10 mobile today

      You forgot to mention the free packet of unicorn farts!

  7. nematoad
    Unhappy

    "...but the preoccupations and desires of loyal users don’t seem to matter."

    Why is anyone either surprised or hurt? It's not as if this was the first time MS have gone its own way and damn the users.

    Just look at Win 8, everyone told MS that it was taking the UX in the wrong direction but MS went ahead anyway. Or that bloody ribbon, hated by many but forced on people just because MS knew best. I could go on but for anyone to be upset by MS ignoring the wishes of its users is either being willfully blind or inattentive.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I too work for a corporate dinosaur

    Just like Microsoft we see clever things being innovated and then delivered by other companies, wonder for a couple of years what this might mean, and then fail with a lacklustre me-too offer. We ignore the message of the market, and revamp the product in the direction our directors think it should be taken, and unsurprisingly still nobody will buy it. Our core business remains profitable, but under attack, and we've not invested anything that we could avoid in it. Our bean counters and directors have no stomach for commercial risk, or for backing internal visionaries, having achieved their positions during the gravy years when we could make money just by being us.

    It's sooooo dispiriting. HR have a star hand in these sorts of corporate demise, by valuing, recruiting and promoting group-thinkers whose talents are defined by the dominant but declining core business. The mavericks, the inspirers, the doers, they're all unwanted in these wholly avoidable slow motion car crashes. And Finance seem to believe the pointy haired boss maxim of "theoretically, if I cut costs far enough we'll be profitable without selling anything". All new business ideas are harshly judged against the scale of the core business - at my workplace, directors won't consider anything that won't almost immediately generate £10m a year profits. There's a rash focus on acquisitions - the "buy something, buy anything!" model that both Microsoft and HP have followed, leading to overpayment, performance and integration problems and huge writedowns.

    Obviously not going to name my own employers, but outside of the tech sector we're busily following this Standardised Model of Corporate Doom (SMoCD).

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I too work for a corporate dinosaur

      Go on, you work for HP don't you :-)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I too work for a corporate dinosaur

        you work for HP don't you

        No, but we use them for our IT, and our god-awful customer service, and sense of entitlement are perfectly matched by theirs. It's a match forged in the very fires of hell, and the only thing that keeps our customer facing systems up to date (1) is the fact that we have kept CRM development in house.

        Note 1: Not "up to date with customer needs", just "up to date with legal compliance in a heavily regulated sector".

        1. Terry 6 Silver badge

          Re: I too work for a corporate dinosaur

          Interesting. In the light of the stick that Microsoft get, and the trouble they are in, that HP even survive.

          I've yet to have a single HP device, even a sodding mouse, that hasn't hit some kind of software, mostly a driver, problem. Usually stupid things like a software update that overwrites all the existing files but one that it can't overwrite for some reason., then refuses to install because that one hasn't updated, and won't work anymore because the file versions are now wrong.

          1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
            Windows

            Re: I too work for a corporate dinosaur

            Weird problems and incompatibilites with "HP" branded gear is nothing new (even though the actual company carrying that brand has mutated more than a Chernobyl chicken), our HP-UX PA-RISC boxen sometimes demanded a specialist be flown in at top dollar pricing to magically sneeze in the server room.

  9. Teiwaz

    Cannibalism?

    Gave me the impression there was a flaw in winphone hardware, and users were buying up devices for spare parts...

    Some fan forums can get a little heated, with the ill-informed decrying 'doom' and more knowledgeable correcting, or vice-versa...

    The former has been occurring on some linux forums over the arrival of another convergent platform for some time. Don't think anyone has tried to crack open any heads and consume their brains like a mueller yoghurt yet.

  10. werdsmith Silver badge

    Fanboys

    Has anyone ever actually seen a fanboy in reality? Occasionally the media seeks out a couple from a queue on some new product release day and encourages them to make fools of themselves on TV but they are extremely rare creatures in the wild.

    I know exactly zero people with a religious attachment to an electronics brand.

    So who are these people supposedly lamenting the Microsoft strategy, and why don't they just buy something they do like?

    1. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

      Re: Fanboys

      "Has anyone ever actually seen a fanboy in reality?"

      Maybe they just "do it with the lights out?"

    2. theOtherJT Silver badge

      Re: Fanboys

      I've met a couple of Apple ones over my years doing IT support, but only via email and on the RT system. They become regular people when you go and talk to them about whatever their problem is in person. I think it's an extension of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory

    3. Avatar of They
      Happy

      Re: Fanboys

      I know quite a few Apple Fanbois, they buy every model, wait up till 3 AM or whatever it is to watch the Apple release live, and have even queued over night. Even posting on facebook how excited they are when the iwatch arrived (or phone or whatever)

      They do exist, they are that sad.

  11. theOtherJT Silver badge

    Drive by management

    Windows Phone feels so much like an unmanaged project - first in a good way, then in a bad way.

    It's like Phone 7 started out as one of those skunkworks jobs that springs fully formed from the minds of a very small group of people. Yes, it had quite a lot of rough edges and didn't feel quite "finished" but you could see what they were going for, and what they were going for was GOOD. All it needs is a few point updates to get to 7.3.11.23.1 or whatever arcane number it ends up at and it'll be brilliant.

    But no. Someone had to try and "manage" it.

    PHB style.

    "Can you just add this?"

    "Android has that, we should have that."

    "Apple did this - why aren't we doing this? We should do this."

    So by the time Phone 8 came along it had all gotten into a bit of a mess, and in the best traditions of drive-by management, having completely ruined it whoever was supposedly running the show then fucks off and leaves it in the lurch. All the engineers working on it become annoyed with each other, because their teams have been instructed to pull in different directions and everyone's had a bit of a falling out, and so what do we get?

    Windows (phone) 10.

    Phone 10 really does feel like it's been abandoned by it's parents and with no one in charge any more everyone went and did their own thing. Some of them set off on a "We'll keep doing the last thing we were told to" trajectory, some of them on a "Thank god that's over, I want to try new things" sort of path, and some more on "Well, let's just put it back the way it was" and now we get an even BIGGER mess. Not only is it totally incoherent, but it's also started to get worryingly buggy because it's been messed around with in too many different directions at once and a whole bunch of "doesn't play well with others" has happened to various bits of the UI.

    I hope you're happy, Microsoft.

    You had a great product, and you blew it.

  12. Irongut

    Scaring potential customers away

    I considered WinPho earlier this year when upgrading my mobile. I'd been using Win8.1 on a tablet for about 6 months and found it really good, Google's evil business practices and crap code were pissing me off again and I was a prime target for a flagship WinPho. But, knowing WinPho10 was due soon(ish) and with all the confusion around what it would be like I ended up buying an S6 Edge. Probably for the best, Win10 tablet mode is not as good as Win8.1 was on my tablet. :(

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Play for sure, WinRT and now this.

    Credibility is destroyed.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Don't forget

      Kin and the Brown Zune

      It is a shame that they'd (IMHO) messed up this platform. With the impending demise of BB the mobile world really needs three strong players. A strong MS would keep Apple and Google on their toes.

  14. BenBell
    Pint

    The WinPhone community turned on eachother

    ...all 7 of them?

    I need a drink.

    To be honest, I alctually like the Windows Phone - I have one work a work mobex and its easy enough to use, is flawless with our Exchange and the battery almost matches my shiney new personal HTC despite being a year old.

    1. Hans 1
      Boffin

      Re: The WinPhone community turned on eachother

      I saw a third Windows Phone in the wild, so there must be more than 7, how about 10, maybe ?

  15. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

      "At least it still has the best keyboard."

      +8

  16. clockwork.satan

    Call it fate, call it luck, call it karma...

  17. James Fox

    I'm actually back on my old 7.8 device whilst waiting for a replacement battery for my 820 and it has really reminded me how complete a vision win 7 was in comparison with what 8.x became. To be fair I can do more with 8.x (like actually open most media files), but I can't help but feel 'if only MS could have kept their nerve...'

  18. marekt77

    Everyone is complaining that Windows Phone 10 looks like Android, but the fact is the market has spoken, and the masses simply did not “get” the UI of Windows Phone 7 then 8.1. The bar was set by the iPhone, with its home screen of icons. Android copied that design, and that is sadly what people now expect in a smartphone.

    Remember, Windows Phone 7 was released in 2010, Android was kinda crappy back then. Actually the first decent Android phone in my opinion was also released in 2010, the Nexus One. So it is safe to say they started on equal footing. However Android, with its grid of icons looked a lot more like the iPhone than WP7 did with its live tiles. In the US the iPhone was still limited to ATT, so if you couldn’t get an iPhone you wanted something similar and got an Android. WP7 I guess was too radical, even if at the time certain things were a LOT more intuitive once you got over that it did not look like iOS/Android. Sadly most people never got that. Funny because back then the tight Facebook/Twitter integration was an awesome feature!! I can go to one place, the People Hub and see everything I wanted too! No ads, just feeds from people I cared about.

    So Microsoft in one of the few times in their existence did something different, original, and good, and no one seemed to care, and still very few people care. Then Windows 8 came out, and anything remotely associated with it was toxic, including Windows Phone 8.

    What are they left with then? The market rejected their UI and design over and over, so either they kill it, or make it more similar to what is popular. Sure they have their fanboys. I’ve enjoyed the WP experience since my first WP7 device the HTC Radar. But a few dedicated fans do not a market make. Sure MS has made some major mistakes with the platform. But back in 2010, while a bit late to the party, they did have a unique and easy to use OS that VERY few people cared about!!!

  19. nkuk

    WinPhone actually has fanboys? I thought everyone that owned one was a mom that had been given a cheap phone as a gift and didn't know what they were missing by not having an iPhone/Android.

  20. Aoyagi Aichou
    Coat

    Microsoft created an astonishingly good platform

    No, Microsoft created a platform with an astonishing potential, which was BRUTALLY MURDERED by INSANE limitations.

  21. bobgameon

    He's right

    Daniel is right. The community is imploding all thanks to Microsoft. Ever since its inception they haven't been able to come up with a coherent plan for windows phone. First they tried to compete with apple by comparing it to the iPhone at the original launch. Then they decided to go after android. Now they are marketing it as a productivity device with windows 10. I mean someone should probably ask Microsoft to make up their mind of what they want the device to be and then release a new version.

    Even the internals keep changing. First they put a shiny new interface on a windows CE core and say this is the phone. Then they move to NT with wp8.0 making half of the apps developed for wp7 useless. Then they jump on to the whole universal app platform craze and make so many changes to the API that many apps I use needed to be updated before they worked. And now they have a new Universal Windows Platform for apps with a completely different set of API's and even that's led to app crashes. WhatsApp is working on optimizing their app for w10. Truecaller had to pull their app for from the store and is going to release a windows 10 version "soon".

    Not to mention all the interface and usability changes that accompany every version.

    Microsoft really needs to sit down, think what they want from their phones and then do something about it. Even under Nadella the phone division feels like its still being run by ballmer with the age old Microsoft strategy of throwing everything(including the kitchen sink) at the wall and hoping something sticks.

    1. Terry 6 Silver badge

      Re: He's right

      Makes sense to me.

      As I understand things in the old days, say ten or twenty years ago, a company would have an idea for a product. And try and sell it. Whether it was a phone, a film or a sweeping brush.

      But since then the accountants and marketing executives have taken control.

      The accountants don't want to produce anything that hasn't already made money. Or if they work for the financial institutions don't want to finance it. So we get endless sequels of Star Trek, Batman etc.

      And the marketing people don't know what to do with an original product, so they want to see a version of what the competitor is already selling.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Horrible UI

    >> Until last year, the phone hid the status bar from the user, as the permanent presence of a clock and signal bars was considered to bespoil the beauty of the design.

    One of the main tenets of good UI design is to show the user enough information that he/she feels in control of the device and aware of its status and can easily figure out how to accomplish whatever he's trying to do.

    Microsoft has clearly lost the plot and seems to think UI is good when all information and buttons are hidden. Thus no battery indicator, no signal bars, you have to swipe from seemingly-random directions to bring up various bars of buttons, etc.

    At least this is all getting somewhat better with more recent releases. But seriously, everybody at Microsoft should be required to take a basic UI class at the local university.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Epic fails

    Microsoft Bob, Clippy, Windows Phone 10...

    1. Hans 1

      Re: Epic fails

      >Windows Phone 10

      Unfair, it is not out, yet.

      But I would have added:

      Windows 3.0, 3.11, NT3.1, NT3.5, 95, NT4, 98, 98SE, 98ME, XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10, 2003, 2008Rx, 2012, and 2016 ...

  24. The Original Steve

    I have a theory...

    There's lots of speculation around a 'Surface Phone' coming out Q1/Q2 2016.

    The renders of the latest flagships (Cityman / Talkman - the 950 / 950XL) appear to have great specs on paper, but look very much like a lower-end Lumia. Quite a contrast to the sharp edges and metallic bodies of the earlier flagships of the 930.

    There seems to be a lot more OEMs interested and creating devices for Windows 10 Mobile, mostly small OEMs but Acer and HTC have devices in the pipeline.

    Adding those things together, along with the general tone coming from Microsoft in the last 6 months I wouldn't be surprised to see MS spending the next 6 - 12 months working hard on getting a solid HW line up, a full range of latest gen Lumia's... And then selling the whole Lumia family to a 3rd party.

    At that point they will do the same as they have with the Surface tablet range... Just a handful SKU's at the premium end of the market, with MS referring to them as 'reference designs' for other OEMs. Will have the same design language as the Surface tablet, not too dissimilar from the 930 with sharp, angled edges and premium materials.

    I think that could give the ecosystem a kick up the arse and the best possible chance of gaining market share.

    1. Richard Plinston

      Re: I have a theory...

      > There seems to be a lot more OEMs interested and creating devices for Windows 10 Mobile, mostly small OEMs but Acer and HTC have devices in the pipeline.

      OEMs need to keep their 'loyalty' discount. If Microsoft tell them that they need to make Win10 mobile devices in order to show their loyalty (or pay an extra few million a year for non-discounted Windows and Office) then they will talk about making some.

      > And then selling the whole Lumia family to a 3rd party.

      Would anyone want to buy it ? Only if Microsoft paid them a billion a year, as they did to Nokia.

  25. Terry 6 Silver badge
    Devil

    My views have changed

    On top of the questions about Winphone 10, and my existing irritation with Windows 10s horrible implementation of an otherwise good start menu (not letting users just move folders where they want etc).

    Today I found that the latest cumulative update falls over and won't install if the character map's link in the start menu isn't where Windows expects to find it.

    I need to repeat this for emphasis.

    The Windows cumulative update falls over because it can't find the link to the character map in the right folder .

    Not a major system file. Not even the actual character map. Just the f---ing start menu link to the f---ing character map.

    It's time I joined the penguins.

  26. BobChip
    Linux

    Microsoft screwing up again?

    Well yes, perhaps. Probably, even.

    But look on the bright side. Over the last few years they have at least demonstrated stunning consistency.....

  27. W. Anderson

    Sad Microsoft and it's dupe millions

    What is dificult for any reasonable person to understand, is that if "Microsoft created an astonishingly good (mobile) platform", why then are Apple iOS and Android platforms gaining even more ground in the USA and global mobile marketshare, which six months ago stood at approximately 93% for iOS & Android combination and about 4% for Microsoft mobile that was slowly decreasing - accotding to "every" reputable and respected technology market research entity.

    It is therefore understandable that Microsoft mobile fans and loyal followers might turn on each other if they remain mired in delusional reality and do not accept fact that Microsoft in new Mobile and Internet age remains a second tier company, devoid of any innovation or original creativity that mobile customer desire.

    All the baseless (of fact) vitriol they spewed incessantly at every Microsoft competitor, particularly technologies based on Linux and UNIX, with which they cannot compete, has come back to bite them in the rectum.

    1. Hans 1

      Re: Sad Microsoft and it's dupe millions

      They are making more money on Android than Windows Phone, even if you do not count marketing budgets and product design. I mean, Windows Phone incoming cashflow vs Android extortion scheme cashflow.

      When a German court looks into the Android extortion scheme, and that will happen sooner than later, the Android extortion scheme will be over in Europe, other continents will follow suit.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They got it right...

    Microsoft has the right strategy. As a surface pro 3 user if I could shrink it to the size of a phone with the same port connectivity and have a similarly sized docking station I'd never look back. Doing my work, programming visual studio on my phone hooked up to a large monitor, mouse, keyboard and camera then undocking it and hitting the road makes perfect sense to me. Add to that taking phone calls and using GPS in the same device and it's Nirvana tech for me.

    The only improvement on that is to put on some hololens goggles and use the phone screen as a controller and you are set.

    My Samsung phone can detect my finger above the screen. It's not hard to imagine a hololens view that as my fingers near the phone up pops a virtual keyboard which shows my finger location so I can strike the key. Prior art right here in case anyone thinks this is good ;-)

    Anyway that's my idea of the future. And it's centred in the phone as desktop. That would be the holy grail for me.

    What's really killing Microsoft? Lousy Lousy support from app vendors. I'd suggest Microsoft scrap app vendor fees entirely for the foreseeable and let them keep 100% of the takings. This would work well for content vendors for sure.

    1. Richard Plinston

      Re: They got it right...

      > Microsoft has the right strategy.

      Actually, what you describe has been Canonical's strategy which Microsoft commandeered but may not deliver.

      > As a surface pro 3 user if I could shrink it to the size of a phone ...

      Microsoft will never get to a billion devices if it only sells _one_ to every Windows 10 user. It wants, or needs, to sell you a desktop, a tablet or laptop, _and_ a phone (plus many IoT devices).

  29. SidF

    I have to agree on the Windows phone 8 on Lumia 735 and 630(wife's phone). Good operating system, very good at picking up the incredibly weak O2 2g signal in the Brecon Beacons( big internal antenna?) and good interface with a PC to copy stuff on and off. Here drive and offline maps ( all free!) are excellent, the sat nav worked very well indeed in the French Alps. Offline maps are essential in most of the UK outside the cities as the 2G connection is useless with the Google/Android navigation app. If Windows 10 phone messes all this up, this could be the last phone I every buy. Or perhaps I should buy a spare W8 phone as a back up?

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