back to article Swiss watch: Cuckoo-clock cops threaten Win 10 whup-ass can pop

Switzerland's top data cop says Microsoft has “gone too far” in abusing people’s privacy. The Federal Commissioner for Data Protection, Jean-Philippe Walter, told Le Temps on Sunday that he was prepared to take Microsoft to court if it does not alter its privacy policy for Windows 10. According to Walter, the installation …

  1. jason 7

    I guess this is what MS gets...

    ...for being one of the very few who are up front about what they are doing. At least there are options to turn it all off if you bother to read.

    Lord know what the others are collecting.

    1. Chairo
      Trollface

      Re: I guess this is what MS gets...

      At least there are options to turn it all off if you bother to read

      Yeah, sure, they never turned anything on that the customer actively turned off. Especially not in relation to Windows 10, right?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I guess this is what MS gets...

      At least there are options to turn it all off if you bother to read

      I don't know about you, but if there was someone stood behind me while I was typing out something personal, I would be very unhappy, even if they promised not to look.

      I would only trust Microsoft if the functions were not there in the first place.

    3. DJV Silver badge
      FAIL

      @jason 7

      Wrong! There is at least one setting in W10 that needs a registry hack to turn it completely off.

      http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-telemetry-and-data-collection-in-windows-10/

      I wonder how many others there are...

      1. jason 7

        Re: @jason 7

        Oh no...the sky is falling down.

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: @jason 7

          That would be the "cloud first" raining down upon you, mate.

          Cloud first, mobile first.

          Customers, partners, developers and staff last.

          Where would you like your privacy renditioned to today?

          1. jason 7

            Re: @jason 7

            Trevor you can fight it all you like, they will win in the end.

            Pick a better battle.

            1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

              Re: @jason 7

              I fight for what's right, not what's convenient.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Dearest Reg,

    Silicon Valley 'eats away at our freedom every day'

    Redmond is not in "silicon valley." It's not even in the same state.

    1. Richard Jones 1

      Re: Dearest Reg,

      First rule of a political animal, never let a bit of geographical ignorance get in the way of a good headline.

      Second rule always play to the gallery, the ignorant far out number those who can understand what is happening.

      Third rule slash and burn the reality if there is a way to stir things up.

      Next they will want to ban the odometers from cars as the maker of the car will know how far you have drive the machine.

      1. SImon Hobson Bronze badge

        Re: Dearest Reg,

        > Next they will want to ban the odometers from cars as the maker of the car will know how far you have drive the machine.

        Not a good analogy.

        A good analogy would be the car maker installing tech so he knows in fine detail when you started it, stopped it, changed gear, where you went and when, how fast you drove, what you listened to on the radio, and even what the occupants discussed.

        Yes you can turn some of it off if you even know it's being done and can find all the settings - some of then apparently requireing the equivalent of getting the toolbox out and lifting the bonnet to change. And lets face it the Win10 installer does NOT actually tell you what it's doing. The default is the express install which is the only clearly visible button on the installer screen - the customise option is done is such a way as to make it very very very easy to miss. So most people will get the default settings.

        And you, like me, might be one of the few who actually go and read what we're signing - but you have lead a very sheltered life if you don't know anyone in the vast majority who go "can't be reading all that, don't understand it anyway". It's not even there on screen to read - there's a link there (does it work before the OS is installed ?), which in turn takes you to a page with (IIRC) 11 different links to the various policies. Yes, each one is actually surprisingly easy to read, but I suggest you sit down and try reading them all through in one sitting - then have someone test you straight afterwards and see how much you can remember !

        So for the vast majority of users, this data collection is not actually done with their consent. It's consent only as much as someone standing behind you in a noisy bar, while you are in conversation with friends, and whispering "my mate is punching everyone in the face as they leave, would you like to opt out of that ?" is you giving consent for that punching should you fail to hear and opt out.

        Also, since some of the data collected is pretty well guaranteed to be "sensitive personal information", under UK law (enacting EU directives so it should apply in the whole of the EU) that can only be collected with express consent. I.e. the user must be given sensible information, and freely give their informed consent. Failing to opt out is not giving informed consent.

    2. Small Furry Animal

      Re: Dearest Reg,

      'Redmond is not in "silicon valley." It's not even in the same state.'

      A little over-pedantic there, methinks. 'Silicon Valley' is used in the sense of a generic descriptor.

      Now back to hoovering the floor with my Dyson before I head to my City job in Canary Wharf.

    3. That Lewis Page (Written by Reg staff)

      Re: Dearest Reg,

      RTFA matey:

      "big companies such as Google and Facebook,” said Walter.

      “They eat away at our freedom every day".

      1. earl grey
        Trollface

        Re: Dearest Reg,

        You are, perhaps incorrectly, assuming that they CAN read and HAVE read the article (as opposed to merely looking at the cow and milking it for comments).

    4. Mark 85

      Re: Dearest Reg,

      I suspect that this has become a generic term for anything tech related. I like here in the US, for years, the carmakers are referred to as "Detroit", even though most cars aren't made there anymore.

  3. Crisp

    Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

    How is that going to help? I thought Microsoft were giving it away for free?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

      I thought Microsoft were giving it away for free ramming it down our throats without revealing any obvious attempt at extracting remuneration prior to infection?

      FTFY

      O:)

      1. Bernard M. Orwell

        Re: Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

        There's no such thing as a free lunch.

    2. Test Man

      Re: Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

      To people with legit installations of 8.1 and 7, and only till next July 29th (2016). They are selling regular retail copies of Windows 10 as well and have been since July 29th.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

      Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

      How is that going to help? I thought Microsoft were giving it away for free?

      Ah, no, it will be a little bit more subtle than that. I suspect they will seek to ban the USE of Windows 10.

      The problem you have as a company (or any entity handling personal data of others) is that you are required to comply with local data protection laws. Given that Windows 10 appears to have been modelled after a colander when it comes to the protection of personal data, it can thus be construed that you wilfully risk disclosure of such data which means you do not meet legal obligations.

      To be honest, I would not disagree with that position but if they go that route they ought to be consistent and ban the use of Gmail for business at the same time, and it's not just Switzerland that ought to do this.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

        "To be honest, I would not disagree with that position but if they go that route they ought to be consistent and ban the use of Gmail for business at the same time"

        Agreed. Gmail compromises not only the company and the clients; but anyone who attempts to contact them.

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

        To be honest, I would not disagree with that position but if they go that route they ought to be consistent and ban the use of Gmail for business at the same time, and it's not just Switzerland that ought to do this.

        I maintain a strict separation between my personal devices and work devices. On my personal devices, Google et al. can shoulder surf all they want, I even whitelist them for those whose services I use. Business? Quite different. While they may have no expectations around privacy, that's their decision, not mine. Toss in HIPPA et cetera, definitely a different ballgame.

        1. a_yank_lurker

          Re: Ban the sale of Windows 10 in Switzerland?

          Also, toss in one has to actively chose to use Google or Facebook while the OS is requirement.

  4. Elmer Phud

    Switzerland?

    The land of open and clear audit trails to simple corporate enterprises?

    Demanding 'openness'?

    A taxing problem

    1. Nigel 11

      Re: Switzerland?

      'openness'?

      I read it as demanding privacy be respected. Openness, only in the sense of MS admitting how they are violating privacy, and ceasing to do so without its end users' well-informed consent.

      No inconsistency that I can see. Switzerland seems to be the only country left that actually believes in privacy, rather than merely pretending to do so.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Switzerland?

        Switzerland seems to be the only country left that actually believes in privacy, rather than merely pretending to do so.

        Not just "believes in", also acts to ensure that state activity doesn't encroach on that position. One of the major leaks in the protection of personal privacy is when authorities have found cause to investigate you (it can happen, all you need is a casual link to someone suspected of crime). In Switzerland, the approach to such investigations are also carefully prescribed insofar that data "extracted" has to be protected, with mandatory jail time for anyone who discloses this.

        This is why there were only US journalists present when they arrested those FA officials but not Swiss ones: someone in the US will have talked and tipped people off, but in Switzerland they did things by the book.

  5. Bladeforce

    I'm so glad..

    I dont use Microsoft, Google, Apple or Facebook or anything like that. Such a shame the internet is killing itself through the pockets of western capitlaism

    1. Bernard M. Orwell

      Re: I'm so glad..

      Wow....what browser did you use to post here?

      1. captain veg Silver badge

        Re: I'm so glad..

        > Wow....what browser did you use to post here?

        Heard of the Mozilla Foundation? Some people have been known to use its FireFox browser.

        -A.

        1. Bernard M. Orwell

          Re: I'm so glad..

          Yes, I've heard of them. May even have used them a bit from time to time. But, here's the shake: If you're connected to a network you are not secure. Data will leak and can be intercepted. I note that Mozilla has cookies and a browser history too.

          If you think that somehow your particular rig and config is magically immune to snooping, hacks or any form of interception then you are woefully mistaken.

          It doesn't matter whose products you use.

          Gotta love techie hipsters though.

          http://www.extremetech.com/computing/178587-firefox-is-still-the-least-secure-web-browser-falls-to-four-zero-day-exploits-at-pwn2own

          1. GrumpenKraut

            Re: I'm so glad..

            > It doesn't matter whose products you use.

            Wrong.

            1. Bernard M. Orwell
              Happy

              Re: I'm so glad..

              "> It doesn't matter whose products you use.

              Wrong."

              I am entirely swayed by the eloquence of your argument.

  6. Graham Marsden
    Meh

    Cuckoo Clocks...

    ... very probably originated in the Black Forest in Germany.

    Blame Orson Wells and The Third Man for spreading the Swiss origin myth.

  7. disgruntled yank

    ??

    Didn't the English police shoot that cow a few weeks ago?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: ??

      Yes and in other news Jimmy Saville is STILL dead...

  8. Wibble
    Alert

    Obfuscation is the name of the game

    Sure, you can (allegedly) turn off the data harvesting, but first you've got to find out how. Microsoft aren't going to help you in any way or highlight how much they're taking.

    1. mark jacobs

      Re: Obfuscation is the name of the game

      Here's how. Make a batch file with these commands and run it :-

      rem BLOCK WINDOWS 10 TELEMETRY BATCH COMMANDS

      reg add HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection\ /v AllowTelemetry /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

      reg add HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\DataCollection\ /v AllowTelemetry /t REG_DWORD /d 0 /f

      sc config DiagTrack start=disabled

      sc config dmwappushservice start=disabled

      sc stop DiagTrack

      sc stop dmwappushservice

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Obfuscation is the name of the game

        Here's how. Make a batch file with these commands and run it :- (etc)

        .. which may protect you against the currently known exports of your valuable data, and that may change tomorrow. Remember, MS is no longer telling what all these lovely updates are for?

        I'm not certain that MS will go back on this one, so far they have gotten away with any abuse they cared to lay on the users with the single exception of Vista. If it wasn't for the Swiss making a rather unusually direct statement about this they probably would have gotten away with this one too, it's not like people seem to care much about their privacy.

      2. Richard Plinston

        Re: Obfuscation is the name of the game

        > Make a batch file with these commands and run it :-

        How many times an hour does it need to be run ?

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    recommendation to ban

    question is, can they ignore the recommendation, or is it... unwise to? I would hope MS were taken to task across Europe over this intrusion, but I guess the majority of policy-makers are the same as majority of users, i.e. "who cares?"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: recommendation to ban

      recommendation to ban question is, can they ignore the recommendation, or is it... unwise to? I would hope MS were taken to task across Europe over this intrusion, but I guess the majority of policy-makers are the same as majority of users, i.e. "who cares?"

      .. but unlike the users, policy makers can be, er, "encouraged" to care less in various ways.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So you don't like Microsoft spying?

    So, I hear you don't like Microsoft "spying" and you're a government agency.

    So you want to sue Microsoft? Are you insane?

    That is not how you hurt Microsoft or teach them a lesson. They are a multi-billion dollar company even if you got over a million dollars out of them they would just laugh it off and carry on their merry way as if nothing happened. They'll get the money back eventually anyway when you purchase their next operating system, renew your Microsoft office/exchange etc subscriptions anyway and they know that million dollars will be back in their pocket from you in no time.

    If you want to teach them a lesson: stop buying their licenses & products. Get a Mac or Linux and don't renew your Microsoft subscriptions.

    As a government agency if you stopped using Microsoft software, then and only then would Microsoft feel the impact. Currently Munick has already done this.

    Now, I know you're thinking "Yeah but we use applications that are required and only work on Windows".

    This is true, but if software doesn't already exist you could hire a group of programmers to make a new version, or try to pressure the company that made originally to port it. If all that fails, try to find an alternative way of doing the task at hand, after all, when their is a will, there is a way.

    Now next up you're thinking "Yeah but it's going to cost us money to re-train people on how to use a new OS!"

    Again, true. But it will also cost you to retrain them for Windows 8, Windows 10 or a new version of Microsoft office which changes its interface. So retraining is required at some point anyway.

    Additionally, when switching to a new OS retraining costs will most likely be a one-time thing, so you'll make your money back by not constantly forking out money to MS.

    And last but not least: "Non-windows admins are more expensive! They are so picky and want a higher wage than Windows admins!"

    Spy on them, find something to blackmail them with then tell them to work for you at a lower wage or else!

    Eventually this will get easier if other governments follow suite, think about it, if governments all started moving away from MS, Microsoft would loose so much money it would have to change its ways! And commonly used Windows-only software will get ported over to other OS's which are in use simply because they won't be selling them for Windows anymore..

    And that, ladies and dirty old men is how you hurt Microsoft.

    Hit them where it hurts, their income.

  11. MikeeMiracle

    I want to be the king of my castle

    I think the problem is the split between mobile and home/desktop use. The mobile world has long since sought integration to make things easier to use, we accept this compromise. The mobile is, by definition, an insecure environment where privacy laws in effect mean nothing. Let alone being unable to use efective AV products as all mobile apps are sandboxed by default.

    For home use though things are different, we want to have full control of our destiny and data. Giving this up is a huge invasion of privacy and very presumptious.

    We already know that Microsoft actively scans outlook.com and have even banned certain users for having "questionable" content in their mailbox. How long is it before the start scanning for unlicensed software and media and acting accordinly.

    Also what happens if you login to Win 10 with a microsoft account and they then close your account for whatever reason? You lose the ability to access your documents and data on your own person computer?

    This is just too dangerous a road to go down. I have been on the bleeding edge of microsft operating systems, installing everything from Win 2000 to Win 8.1 on the day they are released (yes, even Vista.) With the state of play surrounding Windows 10, I plan to stick to Windows 8.1 for as long as possible.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I want to be the king of my castle

      I'm crazy enough to read those agreements (I'd actually call it terms as agreement is a two-way thing) and those are rights they have reserved to themselves. Whether they're idiotic enough to do it is another thing entirely.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I want to be the king of my castle

      We already know that Microsoft actively scans outlook.com and have even banned certain users for having "questionable" content in their mailbox. How long is it before the start scanning for unlicensed software and media and acting accordinly.

      Don't forget Skype, by the way. Go and watch your website's logfiles. The very moment you mention a URL in a Skype conversation you will find it taking a hit from a Microsoft owner IP address. When the Chaos Computer Club discovered this a while back it still took a couple of minutes. It now happens instantaneously. Just do a "tail -f" of your access files and type some nonsense into a Skype message or, if you're running a CMS, create a special page or simply type some nonsense and watch the 404 log - the hit is INSTANTANEOUS, and if you track back via ARIN who owns the IP address you just took a hit from you'll find that it's held by Microsoft.

      Don't like it? Well, complain to your local authorities - that's what you pay your taxes for.

      1. bobgameon

        Re: I want to be the king of my castle

        The site takes a hit because Skype now has a new feature that shows you a snapshot of the website posted just like Facebook does. The owner of the IP address is Microsoft because the snapshot is created on skype servers and then pushed to you. The feature background has been there for months and has now been rolled out to users.

        Sometimes people talk like they know so much but in fact know nothing of whats happening outside their small bubble..

  12. strum

    Give them what they want

    A more effective response to all this data gathering might be to give the slurpers everything they want - but issue fake data.

    signed

    Ronald Reagan,

    Disneyland.

  13. shovelDriver

    Stopping Services Isn't Enough

    Won't help to stop services if you don't disable them. And . . . any Microsoft Updates could reset them.

    So, create and use this registry edit. Keep it handy and re-run it whenever your system notifies you that an update has been applied.

    (Assuming, that is, that MS doesn't surreptitiously slip one pass the notification settings.)

    ----------

    Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

    ; All services have a setting controlling how they are started,

    ; either manually, automatically or disabled. This setting can

    ; be changed through the registry. Open your registry and find

    ; the key below:

    ; HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services

    ; Listed under this key are subkeys representing the devices and services on the system.

    ; Open the subkey corresponding to the service you wish to change, and modify the value of

    ; 'Start' to equal either "2" (for automatic), "3" (for manual) or "4" (for disabled)

    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DiagTrack]

    "Start"=dword:00000004

    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\dmwappushservice]

    "Start"=dword:00000004

    ; Telemetry, by Default, is enabled.

    ; "1" = Yes - Enabled.and "0" = No - Disabled

    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\DataCollection]

    "AllowTelemetry"=dword:00000000

    ----------

    Sorry 'bout the double-spacing. I'm posting a plain-text file, and don't have time to work out why the Reg is corrupting it.

    My name for this RegEdit? TelemetryServicesDisable

    Copy the file, change the Start Setting parameter, and you can have TelemetryServicesManualStart and a third copy can be TelemetryServicesAuto-Default-Start .

  14. shovelDriver

    Other Win10 - and 8 - and 7 - and XP - Privacy Issues.

    Apps That "talk" to the Outside World All Day, Every Day

    Control What Leaves, and What Comes In to your PC from outside

    Start > Settings > Search > Firewall > Allow An App Through Windows Firewall

    Disable (uncheck) the Public side for each app that you do not want communicating. Only Core Networking and Skype have to have the Public side enabled. All others work perfectly well if set to Private side only. And if you don't use Skype . . .

    But make sure you check on a routine basis, as Microsoft has a nasty habit of re-enabling apps and ports without asking first.

    Also . . .

    Delivery Optimization makes your PC part of a Torrent network, and uses your bandwidth, your time, your processing power to send updates and apps from your PC to other PCs on your local network or PCs on the Internet. It’s basically how torrents work: your computer is used as part of a peer to peer network to deliver updates faster to others.

    How do I turn Delivery Optimization off?

    Start > Settings > Update & security > Windows Update > Advanced options > select Choose how updates are delivered, and then use the toggle to turn Delivery Optimization off. When turned off, you'll still get updates and apps from Windows Update and from the Windows Store.

    1. F0rdPrefect
      WTF?

      Re: Other Win10 - and 8 - and 7 - and XP - Privacy Issues.

      "Start > Settings > Search > Firewall > Allow An App Through Windows Firewall"

      You use Windows Firewall, rather than something secure?

  15. W. Anderson

    Draconian actions as usual - from Redmond

    Commenter "Cairo" is obviously very ignorant about privacy settings in Windows 10. Most of the default settings, established by Microsoft "cannot", repeat "cannot" be turned off by customers, and some are very intrusive on private personal information. Eye-candy and cosmetics settings are not Privacy Settings.

    I suggest that all the idiotic Microsoft apologists bone up on "facts" of Windows 10 Privacy, and spend more time advising their heroine to significantly stiffen the security vulnerabilities of the OS - Yes! several have been shown and verified by security researchers - , which to-date remain considerably behind those of Linux - Ubuntu or other mobile releases (not Android which uses only the Linux kernel), as a worthwhile standard to shoot for.

  16. a_yank_lurker

    Russians now the Swiss who next

    Moscow Times reported there is a complaint to the Russian government to declare W10 spyware. Now the Swiss are making noises to declare W10 spyware. I do not remember that within 1 month of release two governments beginning possible legal proceedings to ban any OS.

    If this takes hold, many companies will not be able to install W10 legally. Multinationals could be asked to certify that they are using a currently supported OS and they are not using W10 by governments in order to do business with them. Now the only generally available OSes are there that are known not to spy on users are Linux and BSD distros.

    Apple could easily change their license and code for OS X to be complaint if it is not already so (I have not checked their EULA); they are a hardware manufacturer. Advertising revenue from OS X is not as important, more like chocolate drizzled on desert.

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