back to article Eco-loons hack Thirty Meter Telescope website to help the 'natives'

A cyber attack downed the Hawaiian Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT)'s official website for two hours in protest against the construction on Mauna Kea. A group called Operation Green Rights, claiming to be affiliated to Anonymous, launched a primitive DDoS attack on the TMT and Hawaiian government sites, posting trophy screen grabs …

  1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    Direct action

    The presence of the telescope on top of an active volcano angers the local volcano god....

    I don't think defacing the website is the worst that can happen

    1. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

      Re: Direct action

      But maybe these Greenies should go to the nearest lava tube and protest there first. Clearly, hot lava kills more bugs and crawlies than a few boffins with their coffee mugs.

      With any luck the Volcano gods will arrange a little surge in the tube and turn the Greenies crispy as well...

      1. Rampant Spaniel

        Re: Direct action

        Wow some incredible ignorance there!

        There are two significant areas of concern here over the building of the TMT. First and foremost there is a deep misunderstanding about the sacredness of the mountain. The summit (and others) are Wao Akua or basically the realm of the gods. It is not a case of only the area around an ahu (shrine) is sacred, but the entire peak is viewed and the literal home of the gods (Poliahu, Lilinoe, Waiau, & Kahoupokane). It is their mount olympus, viewed as an overlap with the heavens, a direct portal.

        You can mock, you can point to the low numbers of 'believers' but how many followers does a religion need to have protection? Go try built the telescope on temple mount and see what reaction you get. Na Kanaka Maoli have followed kapu aloha, they have protested peacefully and have used every legal avenue open to them (and no illegal ones).

        The issue they have come up against is the second point. Money, corruption and being held to account. An agreement was made after an extensive review process to limit the number of telescopes to 13 and keep them within a specific area. When #14 was proposed and people objected it was decided that Keck 1 and 2 were actually really just one after a few brown envelopes changed hands. Now they want to build number 15 and if you read the 2000+ pages of EIS (environmental impact study) and planning documents their sole justification for breaking their agreement on the limit is 'we have already done so much damage this won't be noticed'. Development was supposed to be limited, yet any agreement made is ignored as soon as it is inconvenient. How is that legal? You expect people not to protest that?

        This is not an issue for 'a few natives' this has support from haoles and maoli alike. By far the biggest income to the economy is tourism, those tourists come for the beauty. Yet repeatedly that beauty is degraded as the expense of irresponsible development that is permitted only due to lobbying. The current governor has had his nominations for offices repeatedly refused due to them being lobbyists.

        The argument is not against science nor astronomy, but about the cost. There are other locations for the TMT. It could be built with the VLT in Chile. This is just another case of bribery to cut some corners. If it went to Chile the bribes would go with it. There are inoperable telescopes up there which the operators refuse to remove. TMT is several times larger than any of the current observatories and would have a significant impact.

        1. dncnvncd

          Re: Direct action

          According to your post it appears the native Hawaiian population should be afforded protection on laws protecting Native Americans. It is unfortunate that the early Christian missionaries convinced many populations destroy idols and writings associated with idols worshiping gods. Maybe the site was an excellent location for communicating with outer space or part of a geomagnetic grid. This was probably more about computer hacking while claiming an environmental, spiritual concern.

          1. Rampant Spaniel

            Re: Direct action

            The government did offer Hawaiians a chance at 'tribal' status but it was turned down. There were two main points, 1- it would mean relinquishing sovereignty. Whilst the Americans are he and in charge there is a fairly solid legal argument that they didn't ever do it legally, via conquest, or treaty etc. They actually used a joint resolution of Congress which cannot affect land outside the borders of the US, so there are some valid questions. I don't see it resulting in a sovereign Hawaii but they do.

            2- nation with in a nation is more technically nation under a nation. Any laws passed by a tribe are still subject to overturn by the federal government.

            Personally I think the future lies in a compromise, others don't. I do think it's not right that Kanaka should have to protest building on their own land. You'd never get away with doing it on Christian is Muslim land.

            As regards the comments about idols, many kanaka were converted, many adopted both religions and some just kept quiet and kept their beliefs which is why it still exists today.

    2. John McCallum

      Re: Direct action

      This particular volcano has not been active for 4000+ years.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Direct action

        >This particular volcano has not been active for 4000+ years.

        To a God, 4000years = Meh

    3. Marshalltown
      Mushroom

      Volcano God???

      You better keep away from Hawaii, otherwise property values could suffer. The deity of vulcanism in Hawaii is Pele, a goddess. She brings an entirely new meaning to "hot" as applied to the concept of "female."

  2. CapiD
    Unhappy

    "Hippies suck ass in every galaxy"

    The Emperor's Back -Robot Chicken

  3. John Savard

    Fortunately, the attack didn't compromise any observations, or it would have been a far more serious matter.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is why you can't have nice thigns

    The telescope is being built on MK rather than a better site in Chile because it brings a lot of pork-barrel money with it ( and there were a few threats/suggestions that export licenses for some advanced technology might be difficult if it were built offshore).

    Other telescopes on MK have had to be closed to appease local interests.

    The same local interests will now get a bigger slice of the federal money that could go to research.

    The more protests and delays they can manufacture the more kick-backs they will get.

    And I thought working on Nasa projects back in the cold war days of defense funding was a pain...

    1. Rampant Spaniel

      Re: This is why you can't have nice thigns

      How so? The kickbacks aren't going to the people on mauna o wakea? Also which telescopes were closed, there are broken ones up there but funnily enough the folks that built them don't want to remove them like they promised.

      The barrels comment is spot on. Many wheels will be greased for many years to come from this project. There are lots of kanaka maoli who would always oppose a development like this, but many more who oppose it based on the conduct of the people proposing this project and the ones in charge of the previous projects. You can only break your word so many times before nobody believes you. Unless you are a politician of course. The delays etc might be benefitting contractors and the local portable lua company but not the kanaks on the mauna who are off work to protest.

  5. Crazy Operations Guy

    Green scientists

    I've always found that, on the whole, scientists tend to be a lot more environmentally-conscious than your average citizen and may very well provide more benefit to the land than just letting nature have at it. Not only that, but scientists come with a lot of disposable income ready to be spent at local shops. Besides, the telescope would make a pretty good argument to restrict further construction in the future.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Green scientists

      There is no nature there. The summit is bare cinder at 14,500ft, there is no water, except in winter when it is under several m of snow, there is nothing to eat except a few bits of lichen.

      The scientists wanted to close the summit above the 9000ft level to the public because tourists drive up there in hire cars and need rescuing when they get altitude sickness or sunstroke (you can get sunburn in minutes at that altitude), local idiots drive up there in 4x4 and cause a lot of damage and need rescuing when they get stuck.

      But it's federal land so you can't restrict access. When I worked there all the land below 9000ft was a massive army training ground which made a great nature reserve, now I think it's mainly used for cattle which has destroyed most of the local wildlife.

      1. Crazy Operations Guy

        Re: Green scientists

        Good to know. In that case, I've known a lot of scientists to see the lack of foliage as a challenge and start working on getting something to grow there in their spare time. The research would be invaluable in addition to oxygen it produces and the stabilizing effect it has on the ground.

        1. Rampant Spaniel

          Re: Green scientists

          Again, this is exactly the misconceptions that cause problems to begin with.

          Firstly the mauna o wakea is home to wildlife. The silverswords are amazing. It might be sparse up there but it also has a beauty in its own right, above and beyond the cultural importance.

          Secondly, we spend plenty of time trying to keep invasive species out to protect what is already there. I can understand the idea of introducing and experimenting, but Hawai'i is fairly small. Many of its species are unique and also endangered. If this were not the case it would make sense to experiment, but past experiments have shown that all that happens is diversity disappears. Hosmer's grove on Haleakala is proof of that.

          Thirdly, as I mentioned above, this is one of the most sacred sites to na kanaka maoli. Just being there without performing the correct protocol is viewed as improper. There might not be many kanaks left but that doesn't mean they don't have a right to say what happens. Technically this is actually their land. It just happens that the people mandated to manage it seem to have a habbit of collecting brown envelopes. Scientists have been building up there for decades, every time they promise it is the last telescope they turn round and need to build another and refuse to remove the broken ones. There are a few idiots who drive up there and get stuck, theres a shot last week of one of the tmt construction vehicles that ran off the road.

          The actual ownership is disputed, the observatory district is currently leased to UH by the BLNR which is a state entity. You may be getting mixed up with Halaeakala? which is a national park and federal. Mauna kea iirc is seeded lands so it technically held by the state until a Hawaiian government is formed. The dispute arises between the American view I mention above and the kanaka view that the USA never legally acquired the kingdom of hawai'i. Dr David Keanu Sai wrote a dissertation on the legality. What you believe is up to you, I just wanted to supply both sides on that point for anyone interested.

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Green scientists

            Slight mistake - don't know which bit of US government owned it. I'm just saying that the astronomers aren't cutting down redwoods and stamping on baby seals to build the telescope.

            The limits on the number of telescopes, which included shutting down Keck-Interferometer since each little outrigger telescope "counted" - is purely negotiating by local interest groups for money. They protested the Japanese Subaru telescope until each Japanese engineer gained a local assistant to sit around and watch. The same groups who are perfectly happy to have massive tourist hotels.

            Yes sure it's their sacred native land - in that case can we get all these Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Norman and other foreign invaders out of mine and return it to the Welsh?

  6. Chris Miller
    Facepalm

    What do ecoloons and ISIS have in common?

    They're both seeking to return the world to a mythical 7th century state of paradise.

    1. Sarah Balfour

      Re: What do ecoloons and ISIS have in common?

      Drop dead, you ignorant fucktard! What about the rights of First Nations…?

      Evidently, the bitter irony of the fact that, in order to search for life on other planets, we feel the need to destroy much of what remains on this, is lost on everyone but myself and the Spaniel.

      If a telescope the size of 4.5 footie pitches is REALLY necessary, go build it in the desert, surely with the advancements in tech we've got now, keeping sand out the workings should be trivial.

      If it's 'hippy' to want to protect what unspoilt ecosystems remain for future generations, and to treat indigenous and First Nations' people with respect, dignity and equality, then I'm guilty as charged - and fucking proud of it!

      Pave paradise and put up a 100ft telescope…?! Fuck off!

  7. Crazy Operations Guy

    And they are celebrating because...?

    The people running the project aren't going to stop just because a website was hacked. A lookup of where the site is hosted shows that its running on a Cal-Tech web servers, and its a simple information-only type website, so there is nothing on it of value to the opposition that isn't publicly available anyway.

    If this attack was done for the purpose of cutting off support for the project, it wouldn't do anything anyway as this is one of the issues where people aren't going to change positions (And, in fact, only causes them to dig in deeper)

    1. Rampant Spaniel

      Re: And they are celebrating because...?

      The majority of the people protesting are being silent on this. They are torn between appreciating the show of support and the publicity and the fact that they are bound by kapu aloha. This basically means that they are required by a moral code to protest peacefully and with love and respect. They didn't ask for the support from anonymous. They haven't applauded it nor have they criticized it.

      I don't think anyone believes the attack would do anything more than cause a few headaches for sys admins. What it did do is gain publicity for the cause.

      Lanakila who has been speaking publicly about the cause has repeatedly stressed people must not be destructive in their protests. Go try and build the TMT on temple mount and tell me what reaction you think you would get :)

      1. MondoMan

        Re: building on the Temple Mount

        If there were a dozen newish-technology telescopes there already, I don't see that adding another would be an enormous deal. The protesters here would have a better argument if the site weren't already chock full of telescopes/vehicles and so forth. Adding another telescope here would mean you wouldn't have to build a new access road and as much new infrastructure, so it should lessen the overall environmental impact vs building in a greenfield site.

        1. Rampant Spaniel

          Re: building on the Temple Mount

          Sadly the tmt is huge, much larger than anything up there. 18 stories tall and a 5 acre footprint (plus grading area ) with giant underground storage tanks for toxic waste. There isn't anything like it up there, most are 3 to 8 stories (keck is 8). It is also being built on virgin ground, new access roads are being constructed and graded over the original dirt tracks used to survey.

          I am pro telescope, just not with it being there. They had the option to remove broken telescopes and reuse that land but opted not too. They could have trucked waste out but opted not too. They could have presented a decommissioning plan and put funds in trust to cover it but they opted not to. Haleakala has a new facility going up, dkist?, which isn't attracting the same opposition for many reasons.

          1. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

            Re: building on the Temple Mount

            I think you are being too idealistic about this whole thing. From what I can see, and I'm sure you will find proof to it if you really dig deep into the local politics - these protests are more about how to split the contents of the "brown envelopes" rather than about some profound religious and cultural issues.

            There will be some protests, then the local chief gets a small present, a new car and a promise and, suddenly, it's peace and love, peace and love again.

            This is ALWAYS like that in such "disputes" and the more remote the area is, the surer you can be about it.

            The Greenie haxx0rs, on the other hand - they simply got the wrong end of the stick, as they usually do.

          2. cray74

            Re: building on the Temple Mount

            "with giant underground storage tanks for toxic waste"

            You're spinning that a bit thick. There's going to be a 5000-gallon, double-walled sewage holding tank to protect the environment. When it gets filled, it gets trucked out.

            Damn those scientists for being concerned about the local environment.

          3. cray74

            Re: building on the Temple Mount

            "Sadly the tmt is huge, much larger than anything up there. 18 stories tall and a 5 acre footprint (plus grading area ) with giant underground storage tanks for toxic waste."

            Some additional clarification beyond the "giant tanks of toxic waste," which I addressed separately.

            1) The 30-Meter Telescope's "5-acre" footprint is not 5 acres paved under concrete. The actual building has a 1.44-acre coverage, while roads use less. There will still be room for silverswords and weiku bugs.

            2) It'd help describe the land impact of the TMT if you provided some context, like, "Mauna Kea already has 3,894 acres of protected land in its Ice Age Reserve (covering major sacred sites), 10,760 acres of protected land in the Science Reserve, and 66,000 acres of protected land in the Forest Reserve. The TMT will not touch those reserves, instead staying within the 525-acre observatory grounds." http://www.malamamaunakea.org/management

            3) Mentioning the building's height is a strawman fallacy, since that won't impact the ecosystem. The environmental impact is determined by how much land gets paved over; how far eco-system disrupting chemicals are spread through the water table (hence: holding tanks); and what restoration projects are undertaken in the area.

            4) Unlike the many areas falling to developers who are building ever more condos and hotels, the Ice Age Reserve and Science Reserve have been excluded from such development because of their value as undeveloped lands to the small observatory area. The larger Forest Reverse and its ongoing restoration projects also benefit from the need for dark skies.

            Context helps, otherwise people might get the wrong idea that the astronomers were trying to bulldoze the whole mountain top and that sacred sites were only contained in the observatory area.

            1. Rampant Spaniel

              Re: building on the Temple Mount

              Just some a few corrections to your post.

              1- there are 3 5000 gallon tanks. One for water, one for waste water and one for chemical waste. The are also another two 25000 gallon tanks for the fire supression system and a 2000 gallon tank for diesel. You need to read the EIS.

              2- the ownership is actually quite important. The land is owned by the people protesting up there. Along with about a third of all land here it is ceded land, held in trust by the state until the Hawaiians form their own government. The same state who lost a $600 m lawsuit over mismanagement of that land. If it was federal that wouldn't be the case.

              3- the elevation does matter. It has an impact on the skyline. This is something protected here, we changed some safety railings and had to do a change of elevation permit as they were 2 inches taller (still about waist height) yet they get a free ride on 180 feet?

              The entire mountain to is sacred. The hawaiians have been protesting the building on their own land for decades. Whilst there are altars and specific sites within the summit area that doesn't mean somewhere without an altar isn't sacred. In the part they may have been beaten and some may have been paid off but hopefully this time will be different.

              1. cray74

                Re: building on the Temple Mount

                "1- there are 3 5000 gallon tanks. One for water, one for waste water and one for chemical waste. "

                And there's not a septic drain field pumping those wastes into the soil, or a simple open sewage drain pipe running down the side of the mountain? (Just to give some past examples of other remote scientific facilities.)

                "The entire mountain to is sacred."

                Noted. But you still withheld the scale of the mountain's protected areas against the impact of the telescope. If you were trying to give a fair and balanced perspective on the offenses of the 30-Meter Telescope in the face of "some incredible ignorance," then taking facts out of context and misrepresenting an environmental protection system undermines your goal.

                1. Rampant Spaniel

                  Re: building on the Temple Mount

                  Please remember you are dealing with a culture with different attitudes towards some things. Storing waste there, digging into the summit to put in the tanks, that is an issue in itself. It might not seem an issue to a western mindset, I totally understand that, but to the people who actually own that mountain it is a huge issue. Breaking ground had cultural significance, from planting kalo with an o'o. Honestly it's hard to explain, I don't to be condescending but it's an entirely different culture so what you think might be the issue could not be.

                  There are environmental concerns but mostly it is cultural. Yes leach fields would be worse, but they are banned here now anyway (unless that law was revoked). The act of digging into the mauna to store trash is pretty damn offensive. That the agreement to limit the telescopes was repeatedly ignored by the very people who drew it up is just typical of the mentality of the proponents. Their word is worth nothing. They will just take what they want.

                  The scale of the impact is an interesting point. It is 'only' 1.8 acres of building. There are preserves up there but the people who own the land want the entire summit preserved add the entire summit is sacred. It's like building a small brothel in the Vatican and saying oh its only a small percentage. Then floating a blimp 180 for above the Vatican with a picture of a growler and a pair of knockers on it . This telescope will have a noticeable impact on the skyline due to its height. A constant reminder for those living there that money buys anything, legal or not.

                  If they wanted to show goodwill they would have offered to remove the broken telescopes up there. It's just cheaper to build on virgin ground.

  8. Bob Dole (tm)

    I'd post something about how the loons should stop or whatever, but let's face it. They are loons.

    Just carry on and ignore them. If you take away their voice they'll go away.

  9. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Facepalm

    I love my spotted owl rare.

    deep love for the land

    Should probably be rewritten to "irrational impulses of a possessive nature". These are probably the same people newly imported from mainland USA and full of hippie ideas who want to remove GMO papaya trees from Hawaiian premises because the poor ringspot virus also needs some love.

    #WeAreMaunaKea sends forth hopeful message of global Aloha 'Aina - protect and restore land, and native peoples and their sacred places, or face biosphere collapse

    Yes, planting native peoples and their sacred places sure is a guarantee against biosphere collapse. I wonder whether the triassic had native dinos and THEIR sacred places?

    But it's 100% true that I would prefer nuclear-powered huge telescopes being blasted into circumsolar orbit on Nerva engines from oceanic platforms every 6 months, but we ain't there yet.

    1. Rampant Spaniel

      Re: I love my spotted owl rare.

      heh I'll let you go and tele Lanakila and the others up there they are from the mainland :)

      Funny you should mention the GMO issue. The papaya is one of the few examples where the use of GMO is pretty justified. The issue we found here is the GMO's were indirectly killing reefs and turtles. You also have to understand this is set against the backdrop of the legacy of the plantations. Our aquifers are still polluted by the fumigants, pesticides and herbicides used by the cane and pineapple industry over the past century. The majority of the 'anti gmo' protesters were against the bribery, the lack of transparency, and the dangers not specifically from the GMO aspect but from the fact the GMO was fone to promote tolerance of high levels of herbicide and or production of pesticides by the plants themselves.

      What was found was that certain types of agriculture were resulting in high levels of nitrogen run off due to poor nitrogen fixation by the crops (resulting in higher levels of N fertilizer being used). This was then caused eutrophication of algae, killing reefs and causing an explosion of cancers in the turtle population. A lot of work is still to be done on the mechanisms and ruling out simple correlation rather than an actual cause (which could happen) but given the history here I think caution is understandable. Not everyone had that approach, some just hate gmo's, personally I think they have a place. I do think they have to be used with caution. The irony of it being Hawai'i is palpable. If it wasn't for the diversity provided by the maoli cotton (called Ma'o) the industry would on its knees. Whe mass plantations of cotton were hit by blight and insects it was natural hybridizing with Hawaiian cotton that provided a resistance. Normally Ma'o wouldn't be grown commercially, the spreadsheets say no, but it was the 'crazy hippie' kanakas that grew it for cultural uses that provided the answer. Moving to mono cropping of designed plants leaves you at the mercy of companies who charge crazy money for seeds. We grow up to 60 varieties of tomatoes (just as one example from the farm), save our own seeds at basically zero cost. We are narrowing it down to maybe 20 of the better varieties for sale but will keep rotating the rest through to keep valid seed. When we bought in some corn seeds we paid a fraction of the cost for organic corn as we would have done for GMO corn, we have the freedom to cross breed the corns and we can save the seeds, also no chemicals required. I do worry about the GMO corn crossing with our corn and finding myself on the end of a lawsuit. I'm personally not all that happy about the corn producing bt toxins (not something we use, although some large organic farms do). I'd like the choice and I'd like to know we can keep their stock isolated, something thats' difficult on small islands.

      Plus some of it came down to trust. On the one hand you have farmers who pay for independent experts to check on their farming practices, on the other you have seed and chemical companies who pay politicians to pass laws to prevent people finding out what is happening on the farms. Which makes you suspicious?

      It's disturbing to see how the world perceived what went on here with that. No doubt helped by news papers remembering which large chemical companies buy adverts in their papers.

  10. Mark 85

    Environment or profit?

    Is this really about the environment? Or is it about profit? Hawaii is prime real estate and as developers move in, the light and radio pollution will only get worse to the point the telescopes will be useless. If they put an exclusionary zone around the 'scopes, then the developers and local politicians will be deprived of profit. The local populace will be deprived of jobs.

    I can understand some of the "keep in the US territory" because of some equipment issues.. secrecy and all that. If that's what's needed, there's an awful lot of empty places in the 48 that would meet the criteria... I'm thinking the Rocky Mountains or even the Cascades. The problem there is that they are so remote from anything including electric power that just getting the services to them would be an undertaking.

    Still, my first rule of thumb is "don't go where you're not wanted". I'm sure there's places in Montana, Colorado, New Mexico, etc. that would welcome this project.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: Environment or profit?

      Unfortunately you are always not wanted by someone wherever you go.

    2. https://bakerjd99.wordpress.com

      Re: Environment or profit?

      You are making way to much sense. As a long standing amateur astronomer and aficionado of major observatories I can state with absolute certainty that if you want to preserve the environment around a mountain one of the best ways to do it is place a major observatory on it. Large telescopes require large dark zones. If people would turn their damn lights off at night development in such zones might be permissible but as you are well aware people will not turn off their f&$#ing lights and will look at you like you've just beamed down from star-ship Looney Tunes if you try to tell them that light pollution is a real thing. The only way to insure a dark environment is to restrict development and as you point out that limits how much money certain cretins can extract. What’s happening on Mauna Kea now happened before on Mount Graham in Arizona. So called environmentalists fought for decades to block the Large Binocular Telescope because it might stress some squirrels. Well the scope got built and the squirrels are doing just fine and will continue to thrive because their habitat will not be sodomized by condo developers and other lower life forms.

      Mixed in with all this phony eco-warrior nonsense is even more phony religious nonsense. I realize it is horribly judgmental and privileged white male of me to say that sky fairies of all types are complete and utter rubbish. Jesus did not rise from the dead, Mohammed did not ascend to heaven, and Mauna Key is not a sacred sight regardless of what native Hawaiians believe. “Belief” is a bullshit word. It will be a pathetic day if the construction of a major 21st observatory is stopped to placate scientific illiterates and religious primitives.

      1. Crazy Operations Guy

        Re: Environment or profit?

        If you consider a long enough timeline, there is no such thing as "Natives", just people who got there first.

    3. Tom 13

      Re: Environment or profit?

      There's a good reason they prefer Hawaii for the scope, but it's been a while so I can't swear to it. I believe it has to do with the seeing over Hawaii. One of the reasons for putting scopes in orbit instead of on Earth is that there is an effective resolution limit for Earth bound scopes because of cells in the atmosphere. IIRC the effective resolution limit is around the size of a 6M scope. More surface area still gains you the ability to see fainter objects, but it doesn't help with resolution. I'm pretty sure the seeing in Hawaii is better than you get in the Rockies. I think it's altitude, but it might also be that with more stable temperatures there's a slight improvement in the resolution.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I know we need to preserve species..

    .. but I would admittedly be conflicted if eco-loons were about to be extinct.

    Actually, no, not at all. Anyone seen my rifle?

    :)

  12. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

    Talking of Pork Barrels

    I'll never forget "the day that will live in infamy" when the rich USAnians removed the Hawaiian royal family.

    1. Martin Budden Silver badge

      Re: Talking of Pork Barrels

      Wow, you must be older than I thought.

  13. POSitality

    It has recently become my belief...

    ...that there are two people in this world.

    When I was a child, it was Good vs Evil.

    When I was an adolescent - and cognisant of politics - it was Left vs Right,

    When I was a young man (and heavily into AD&D!) I thought maybe it was about Order vs Chaos...

    Now as a man, a father and a grandfather I realise what it's about, what it's always been about:

    * Regressives vs Progressives *

    You know that line "it was always better back in the old days" one?

    It's a lie: it was better then because ignorance and superstition meant *They* were in charge but now we have knowledge "We" have taken power. The frustration of power slipping through the fingers of the so-called "righteous" will see a lot more of this sort of thing.

    We, the people, seek knowledge. With that knowledge we might attain freedom. This must be stopped at all costs, say the righteous who fight freedom at every turn.

    And so it is with a telescope... not a shopping mall, not an industrial park but a scientific development made by people so "right on" as to relocate 35 rare frogs from the building site if they have to!

    There are fights to pick but this one? Way to look like regressive chumps :(

    1. Rampant Spaniel

      Re: It has recently become my belief...

      Honestly that is not the case. This protest is the straw that broke the camels back. For decades maoli have been treated as second class citizens, devoid of rights. Their burials have been exhumed by bulldozer and dumped on the side to make way for hotels and malls. Their sacred sites have been mined for runway material, used as toxic dumps and practice battlegrounds. They have been evicted from their own land because despite being promised that their land would inure to their heirs as originally intended found that whilst the state constitution protected this, it was overruled by the US constitution.

      Tell me that if I took a bulldozer to a christian cemetery there wouldn't be an outcry, yet repeatedly the same happens here and it's viewed as nothing. A developer locally was trying to build a house on top of a heiau (temple) which contained several important burials. Most were marked and they were not allowed to go near those (they don't own the land where the burials are but do own adjacent plots) but they ignored this and apparently they found 'chicken bones' which they threw into the ocean removing any proof. Tell me how you would feel if that happened to you? It happened to my family a couple of years ago. So if you find people less reasonable than perhaps you might expect, please consider there may be reasons.

      I have no doubt that the kanaka maoli have benefited from the shield provided by the US government. However, they have also suffered, been beaten in schools for speaking their language, kicked off their own land, deprived of water for farming only to be offered to buy back the very same water at grossly inflated rates, humiliated and thrown into poverty. Organisations that are supposed to benefit them work against them, time and time again they find themselves having to fight all the way to the supreme court, to win and still find that the judgement is simply ignored locally.

      So does this seem like an overreaction in isolation, sure I can see that, but in the context of the past 200 years it is a massive under reaction. If the people behind the project and the people that came before them had acted with any decency things would probably be different. If people had honored previous agreements, had cleaned up after themselves etc, then perhaps there wouldn't be this protest. Also please remember that on one side of this are paid PR specialists, media ad buys and slush finds. On the other are hard working individuals that just want to coexist and be respected. This is just the chickens coming home to roost.

      1. Salamander

        Re: It has recently become my belief...

        Welcome to the American empire.

        Yes, America IS an empire. When America won it's independence from Britain it consisted of just thirteen states on the Atlantic coast. How do you think America obtained the rest of it's territory? America fought wars to gain territory. Then they claimed squatters rights to land that belonged to various native tribes. When the tribes simply said 'Hang on a minute!', the Americans sent in the army to sort the issue out with an ineptly executed genocide (hence the reason there are still some native tribes left today).

        But on the other hand, I do like telescopes. Human culture would be greatly diminished if we stopped building telescopes.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where is Stitch when you really need him?

  15. Sceptic Tank Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Time to move

    I suppose they could always relocate to the Marshall Islands if they don't like the look of that them telescopes over there.

  16. dryFrog

    dryFrog

    73 yrs old and have learned the most complicated issues are based on forgotten words Simple question....

    Why do ppl fail to respect another's belief system? If your neighbors don't want you do that.. then don't do it!

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