back to article UberPop granted temporary reprieve in France

A French Court has declined to ban Uber's controversial UberPop app, bouncing the decision to the country's highest appeals court. The ruling provides a reprieve for Uber's lower cost app service, which effectively allows users to be ferried around without a professional licence. "The Paris Court of Appeal today gave a strong …

  1. RobHib

    Funny isn't it?

    Funny isn't it how the world wants competition and fee markets at almost any cost–witness all the free trade agreements etc? And yet in almost every country this aspect of free trade is verboten.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Funny isn't it?

      Free trade is one thing, operating without a licence, probably having no insurance and pocketing undeclared income, and the authorities will take a dim view of your activities.

      1. RobHib
        Facepalm

        @A.C. - - Re: Funny isn't it?

        A.C., perhaps you should actually read what I said.

        I said nothing whatsoever about "operating without a licence, probably having no insurance and pocketing undeclared income", nor did I even infer it!

        ...But then what would one expect from an A.C. who'd even bother to be an A.C. over such a trivial headline. Perhaps you're trying hide from your own shadow.

    2. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Funny isn't it?

      It isn't forbidden. In Germany Uber just has to ensure their drivers obtain a professional driving licence in order to get insurance.

      As they don't do this and all of their drivers are driving illegally, with no valid insurance, they are banned.

      1. phil dude
        Gimp

        Re: Funny isn't it?

        In Europe (generally) that makes sense, as the streets there can be quite narrow and car laden.

        Here in the USA there is loads of room, and driving is very much a right of passage thing.

        But Uber has insurance. The rules of "no insurance if no license" is a profit thing for insurance companies. The license simply gives a higher-bar for assessing risk. Oh and so the govt gets its cut...

        And let us not forget that as cars become less accident prone (autonomous incremental adoption), do you think insurance will drop to match this?

        This is all about money and the ability to control who gets it.

        If you have not used Uber once, you really cannot get how much of a paradigm change it is.

        P.

        1. big_D Silver badge

          Re: Funny isn't it?

          Nothing to do with insurance companies, it is a legal requirement.

          If Uber want their drivers to drive without a professional licence, then they need to first get the legislation changed.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Funny isn't it?

          I'm guessing that US and UK insurance works differently. As far as I understand it, you're not allowed to insure the same vehicle on two different policies, so, if you're driving under the Uber policy, your personal policy will become void, and remain void from that point onwards. Unless you have insurance that specifically states you can operate for hire, any such activity will immediately invalidate the insurance. Insurance companies love a way to get out of paying. Once your personal policy is invalid, then any non-Uber journeys are uninsured, which is definitely illegal here. You're also most likely to find your name on an insurance "naughty list", making future insurance difficult and expensive to obtain.

          1. phil dude
            FAIL

            Re: Funny isn't it?

            That cannot be true AC, so not sure if you are a troll.

            Insurance companies don't care how many policies you take out on a car. But you can only claim on one of them, and you must not break the terms of the policy.

            Insurance is given on the basis of risk according to the information you give them. Commercial insurance is no different, but the company can aggregate the risk and set the terms they are willing to pay for.

            We will have to see how the law suits shake out, but this reason is not the one, which is why Uber has a gigantic banner saying this.

            P.

          2. Greg 16

            Re: Funny isn't it?

            I don't think he's trolling, because in the UK it's a commonly held belief that you can only have one insurance policy on each car.

            In fact there's no law stopping you having as many policies as you like, but some companies have their own rules in place which prevent multiple policies and if you have a claim, then obvviously you can only claim on one policy.

            1. Just Enough

              Re: Funny isn't it?

              Re:insurance.

              In the UK, most insurance policies insure the driver, not the car. Many people get this confused. You could, I suppose, take out multiple policies on yourself as a driver, unless it's obvious the insurance companies don't care much until you try claiming. At that point, don't be surprised if they all refuse to pay out.

    3. phil dude
      Pint

      Re: Funny isn't it?

      clearly there is a sweet spot between "free market" and "free for all".

      I guess the problem is that in this globalised world (divided for profit) , companies from one domain (USA) have different expectations of operation than, well, everywhere else.

      Hypothetical:

      If I meet a bloke in the pub on Thursday morning and get talking for a few minutes, and he adds me to Facebook and then turns on geolocation, and I then ask him for a ride when he is near on Thursday evening. Could someone explain if the few minutes I talk to him makes this any different than Uber?

      Here in Knoxville, the city is not that big and getting the same driver twice is quite likely, and no different from a taxi. (As a side bar I have been given a religious lecture on morality when being carted home with an "amorous new friend" - I guess that is why taxi's don't want feedback enabled apps....)

      The difference being when I want to go home (or wherever) I simply hit the "get me home" button.

      And there are no taxi's where I sometimes find myself after a night out....(see icon)!

      P.

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Funny isn't it?

        If I meet a bloke in the pub on Thursday morning and get talking for a few minutes, and he adds me to Facebook and then turns on geolocation, and I then ask him for a ride when he is near on Thursday evening. Could someone explain if the few minutes I talk to him makes this any different than Uber?

        You are getting a lift from a private citizen in the first instance, in the second instance money changes hands and it is a professional service.

        In Germany Uber drivers can carry passengers, as long as they don't charge more than the petrol used. Any more and they need a professional driving licence.

        1. phil dude
          Go

          Re: Funny isn't it?

          That is my point exactly. No money changed hands.

          Yes, I get debited elsewhere. But the "no money at the point of service" is the difference. In a normal taxi you pay the guy and he pays the firm (or some calculation thereof). In an Uber some guy drives you and you pay Uber, and they pay the guy. You do see the ordering is different?

          In Germany Uber drivers can carry passengers, as long as they don't charge more than the petrol used. Let's say Uber charges their drivers 50 euros a litre, so no license needed? (Hire car firms do this all the time, BTW)

          I am not saying Uber hasn't been aggressive and perhaps a bit uppity. They can be complete nobs like all companies tend to be.

          I am making the point that this is a paradigm change because if you have ever been to another city and hailed a cab you have done the following:

          1) Assumed the taxi driver was licensed

          2) Assumed the taxi is in good working condition.

          3) Failed to get a review of the taxis last 10 trips.

          4) Failed to get a list of previous complaints listed against the taxi driver.

          5) Taken on blind faith the taxi will take you the most economical route.

          6) Must have a means of payment on your person that is sufficient to cover the unknown taxi charge.

          Just because a painted car turns up with a photograph pasted in the back does not make it any more desirable or even theoretically safe.

          The only way in which a London (black cab) taxi is different is that the Hackney carriage carries more people. But then they invented minivans.

          Personally I think it would be nice if Uber could some agreements sorted out and perhaps we could have this efficiency spread throughout society.

          I suspect the status quo is just too lucrative to the vested interests.

          P.

          1. big_D Silver badge

            Re: Funny isn't it?

            That is my point exactly. No money changed hands.

            Yes, I get debited elsewhere. But the "no money at the point of service" is the difference. In a normal taxi you pay the guy and he pays the firm (or some calculation thereof). In an Uber some guy drives you and you pay Uber, and they pay the guy. You do see the ordering is different?

            But both parties go into the transaction knowing that the passenger is being charged for the journey (more than the cost of the fuel) and that the driver will get recompensed. It is irrelevant if that is direct or over a third party, the driver is "PLYING FOR HIRE" and that is illegal in Germany without the proper driving licence.

            Let's say Uber charges their drivers 50 euros a litre, so no license needed? (Hire car firms do this all the time, BTW)

            Can't do that. Uber would first need a network of petrol stations charging 50€ a litre, who in their right mind would refuel their vehicle there? And what is the incentive for the driver? IF they are being charged 50€ a litre? They still aren't earning anything!

            The regulators would also frown upon it.

            There are already several of "car sharing" services in Germany, where you can book a journey from A to B and you are matched with a driver who has registered the same journey, you pay half of the fuel costs for that journey. That is legal and doesn't require a professional licence, because the driver isn't making the journey as a professional driver for profit.

            Yes, Uber are being knobs. They have come into a market where there are clear LEGAL requirements for a driver to carry paying passengers. They completely ignore those rules, don't ensure their drivers are within those laws and let them drive with invalid insurance, putting the driver, passengers and third parties at risk - if the Uber driver has an accident, then he has to pay for the damage to all parties involved and any personal injury to himself, passengers and others involved out of his own pocket - and will probably end up with a prison sentence for driving without insurance and lose his licence for several months or a year.

            1. Steve Gill

              Re: Funny isn't it?

              ah, but big_D you've forgotten that the new shiny app is always better than the old ways so obviously having some bloke with no insurance or experience driving passengers will be better than another bloke who has been doing it for years and has got all his papers in order.

              1. phil dude
                Happy

                Re: Funny isn't it?

                @big_d @Steven Gill:

                Guys can we please stop propagating FUD that they are not insured. It is a COMMERCIAL policy, and does not act like the ones you have on your PERSONAL vehicle.

                I will say it again, they might be nobs, but this is a paradigm change and it benefits the consumer, and I would urge you all to try it just once so we can hear informed opinions....

                Shiny Happy People....

                P.

                1. Vic

                  Re: Funny isn't it?

                  Guys can we please stop propagating FUD that they are not insured

                  It isn't FUD. They are almost certainly not insured in most jurisdictions - and definitely not in Germany.

                  It is a COMMERCIAL policy, and does not act like the ones you have on your PERSONAL vehicle.

                  The policy on my vehicle is a COMMERCIAL policy. And, in common with every policy I'v ever held, it explicitly and specificly excludes travel "for hire or reward". So although I have a COMMERCIAL policy that permits use of my vehiicle in the pursuit of my business, I would be completely uninsured if I tried driving as an Uber driver.

                  this is a paradigm change and it benefits the consumer

                  As with all such illicit activities, it does until such time as something goes wrong - and then you find it really doesn't. If I were driving an Uber customer, and I crashed and paralysed that passenger, my insurance would not pay out. Not a bean. And I haven't got the money to pay for ongoing care. So although the fare would have been cheaper than a properly insured taxi, the end result is a massive loss for the traveller. This is not a Good Thing(tm).

                  so we can hear informed opinions

                  This is an informed opinion - carriage for hire or reward costs *significantly* more[1] in the UK than other forms of insurance. And in Germany, it's not available unless you're properly licensed. This might not be what you want to hear, but it is the truth.

                  Vic.

                  [1] Last time I got quoted for H&R, it was double the cost. I didn't take that option...

                2. big_D Silver badge

                  Re: Funny isn't it?

                  @phil,

                  no FUD. In Germany, unless you have a professional driving licence, it is impossible to get commercial insurance. The insurance companies cannot legally issue commercial insurance for a driver transporting passengers for money unless they have the licence.

                  That is the issue, Uber won't ensure its drivers have the licence and that they therefore have valid insurance.

                  http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxi

                  If they don't have a professional licence, then the best they can do is transport the passenger for a maximum of their share of the cost of the fuel.

          2. Da Weezil

            Re: Funny isn't it?

            Where I live the car carries a licence plate from the local authority giving the car details (to prevent use on multiple vehicles, the car goes through a tougher than usual (private car annual) inspection every 6 months, carries a huge insurance policy and is subject to spot checks. Oh and the journey is metered so if you make it regularly you should be able to predict the cost.

      2. Mike Moyle

        Re: Funny isn't it?

        @ Phil Dude:

        "The difference being when I want to go home (or wherever) I simply hit the "get me home" button.

        And there are no taxi's where I sometimes find myself after a night out...."

        So -- and I'm not asking to be snarky; I'm honestly curious -- How is this different than having one or more cab companies' phone numbers in your phone's contacts list and hitting "dial"?

        1. phil dude
          Boffin

          Re: Funny isn't it?

          @Mike Moyle:Sir, I do not think you are being snarky, but I am assuming that you have not used the app? (or even the web based version that works surprisingly well. This would limit your exposure....).

          1. Click on Uber icon, opens a map of where you are.

          2. You move the pin (which tells you how long until nearest car, and has a map with the cars moving on it), to your desired pickup point (and enter destination).

          3) You choose the type of car service (I have only used UberX, but there are others).

          4) It gives the make, model, registration, driver first name, photograph of driver, and the reviews status of the driver.

          5) On the vehicle approaching, and making sure it has the correct registration, get in car and confirm destination (you already entered destination in step 2).

          6) The app will IMMEDIATELY show you the route to be taken. You can share this with ANYONE you want, in fact your entire journey can be shared (I believe) . If you want a different route, the driver will take it, but Uber apparently calculates the best route everytime.

          7) At your destination you get out, no money changes hands.

          8) There are options to review drivers, if you want.

          Does this sound even remotely like any taxi ride you have taken?

          P.

          1. Just Enough

            Re: Funny isn't it?

            @phil

            "Does this sound even remotely like any taxi ride you have taken?"

            Uber have a really neat smartphone app that is some way ahead of the competition and some taxi's I've taken only have elements of what you describe. But you've listed nothing that couldn't be done by a properly licensed, old-style, taxi firm.

            You're looking at the technology and getting excited, but that's not the authorities' problem with Uber . Uber's problem is how their drivers are employed, licensed and insured, not because they are run through a smartphone app.

            1. phil dude
              Facepalm

              Re: Funny isn't it?

              "couldn't be done by a properly licensed, old-style, taxi firm".

              That is the point. The taxi firms didn't think of this and now they are crying to the govt. I very much doubt any govt scheme would come up with such a useful combination of technologies.

              The govt doesn't care if you get a good deal, which is why taxi's are so uniformly crap.

              The taxi's don't care if you get a good deal, which is why they are so scared you'll have another choice.

              We will see how this shakes out in the courts I'm sure.

              I'll say it again for those who missed it, if the taxi firms were so concerned for YOUR well being, they would buy the sodding app off Uber.

              P.

      3. Just Enough

        Re: Funny isn't it?

        "Could someone explain if the few minutes I talk to him makes this any different than Uber?"

        Money changing hands makes it different. That's when it becomes conducting a business and when authorities take notice.

        Personally, I like to be sure my taxi driver is competent and insured. Socially, I like to be sure my taxi driver is paying taxes like everyone else.

  2. WalterAlter
    Coat

    This is What Caused the Dark Ages.

    Medieval craft guilds protected and monopolized their trade secrets keeping Europe in a state of peasant ignorance for centuries and then they howled like cats under a rocking chair when the Industrial Revolution stamped out kitchen utensils affordable by the average Joe Sixpack, utensils used by Karl Marx his entire life. It took me months to learn how to spell medieval.

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Re: This is What Caused the Dark Ages.

      Craft guilds are still there for many professions, in Germany, for example, you can't be a carpenter, plumber, butcher, baker etc. without an apprenticeship in that trade and you can't run a business in that trade without a Meister Brief (Master Craftsman's Diploma).

      And they have been replaced pretty much in general trades through unions these days. There are many jobs today, where you are forced to join the union if you want to do the job.

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