back to article Microsoft dumps ARM for Atom with cut-price Surface 3 fondleslab

Microsoft's brief flirtation with ARM-powered Windows RT tablets looks to be over: the Redmond giant has unveiled its latest fondleslab, the Surface 3, which is a dinky Atom-powered slate running a full version of Windows on Intel hardware. Up until this latest tablet, Surfaces have sported ARM-compatible processors, and …

  1. Lost in Cyberspace

    Ideas that sounded good at the time

    like the naming for almost every Microsoft product ever released?

    1. goldcd

      Nothing wrong with the Zune

      Just got sat on my Apple.

  2. x 7

    Makes the Linx 10 tablet look even better value

  3. Gis Bun

    Errrr

    You didn't know that MS dumped the RT? It was announced previously. Those with RT based tablets won't have a Windows 10 option. Just maybe some features ported over.

    1. Neil McAllister

      Re: Errrr

      Microsoft hasn't announced anything definite on RT. Its future certainly doesn't look very bright, though.

      1. jason 7

        Re: Errrr

        RT did it's job. It got Intel to make the chips MS wanted all along.

        Sometimes you have to make a move on a different girl to get what you want.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Errrr

      "You didn't know that MS dumped the RT? It was announced previously. Those with RT based tablets won't have a Windows 10 option"

      No, they said it will get an update:

      "We are working on an update for Surface, which will have some of the functionality of Windows 10. More information to come," says a Microsoft spokesperson."

      So much like RT already only has some of the functionality of the full version of Windows I guess.

  4. Gannettt

    Neither fish nor fowl: not portable enough for a real tablet, not powerful enough like a modern laptop.

    If the Pro line weren't priced so ridiculously, I would definitely snap one up, though.

    1. goldcd

      Oh I don't know.

      I picked up an Onda (poxy CPU, 2Gigs RAM, LG screen off an ipad) last year for £150ish at my door.

      For some reason I'd got it into my head "Windows was for desktops and laptops and cheap was bad".

      Then I played with a Linx tablet. Was definitely 'budget', but thought windows actually seemed pretty damn good on it, and took a punt on the Onda for the better screen.

      Whether you'd pick an Onda over an iPad or a Nexus is up to you - but there's a certain satisfaction with just mapping a samba share as a drive, and watching your videos on VLC. No pissing about. No wondering if you can manage to do what you could do on a PC etc.

      MS have won my heart and mind over, and quite nice to see there's a 'path of expense' ahead of me now if I want to step up through their basic and pro models.

      Selling my 'revelation' definitely comes with mixed results though. Half people I talk to join me in the fervor and start hunting down obscure windows tablets. Other half just look at my blankly and ask why they'd need it, when they have an iPad.

      Suspect that's it pretty much. If you use a tablet - but get eternally niggled it's not a PC, you should take a punt on these. If you are 'quite happy' with your iPad, these aren't going to sway you one jot.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "If the Pro line weren't priced so ridiculously, I would definitely snap one up, though."

      It's very competitive compared to the nearest equivalent - a MacBook Pro.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. jason 7

      @Gannett

      I think you'll see most sub £500 laptops coming fitted with these same CPUs as standard.

      Already the case in the £300 and below sector.

  5. Roger B

    So close..

    £399 with the pen and keyboard and I think I might of given one of these a go, my Toshiba Encore will last me a while longer I think. Their pricing plan is also a bit to close for comfort to the iPad Air as well, an extra £80 to double the HDD on either model, although the Surface doubles the RAM as well, but how can I scoff at Apple prices as easily now? Maybe they'll have some Surface Pro 3s going cheap at the end of the year.

    1. Kunari

      Re: So close..

      The stylus and keyboard is not included in the prices listed, so add the cost of keyboard and stylus to the cost of the tablet.

      1. Steve Todd

        Re: So close..

        Erm, I think that was the point. If they were to throw in the pen and keyboard for that price he'd be interested. Get it?

        Since PC World are flogging convertable machines (full keyboard, detachable tablet/screen) for £250 then I think he's on the high side.

        1. Roger B

          Re: So close..

          Exactly what he said that I said, thanks Steve, I did have a look at some of the PC World machines, maybe that's a better choice, not in a huge rush to be honest, the Toshiba just gets a bit warm sometimes.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    MS is trapped

    Layers upon layers of ossified x86 code doomed any exit for Microsoft from the Intel platform a long time ago. Unlike Apple's elegant leaps from architecture to architecture due to the Mach microkernel's small dependency footprint.

    Unfortunately, Linux is not far behind in this scenario.. it has the same large monolithic LSB 'kernel'. However, being open-source, it at least has a fighting chance to evolve - SystemD is a step in the right direction to break Linux into smaller, better integrated pieces.

    Not being able to even make it onto the architecturally similar ARM means Microsoft products are doomed to remain on the sidelines of mobile as well as the new more efficient server designs being rolled out, not to mention any radical new architectures that may appear on the scene.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: MS is trapped

      Erm, what do you mean by SystemD breaking Linux into smaller pieces ? I always thought those guys are doing the exact opposite. And if you ask me, they are trying really hard to break Linux.

      1. MrRtd

        Re: MS is trapped

        It's systemd, not systemD.

      2. John Sanders
        Holmes

        Re: MS is trapped

        This is how systemd is destroying Linux:

        - I wonder what the status of my cluster is...

        systemctl status pcsd.service

        pcsd.service - PCS GUI and remote configuration interface

        Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/pcsd.service; enabled)

        Active: active (running) since Tue 2015-03-31 18:20:38 BST; 18h ago

        Main PID: 577 (pcsd)

        CGroup: /system.slice/pcsd.service

        ├─577 /bin/sh /usr/lib/pcsd/pcsd start

        ├─593 /bin/bash -c ulimit -S -c 0 >/dev/null 2>&1 ; /usr/bin/ruby -I/usr/lib/pcsd /usr/lib/pcsd/ssl.rb

        └─594 /usr/bin/ruby -I/usr/lib/pcsd /usr/lib/pcsd/ssl.rb

        systemctl status corosync.service

        corosync.service - Corosync Cluster Engine

        Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/corosync.service; enabled)

        Active: active (running) since Tue 2015-03-31 18:20:47 BST; 18h ago

        Process: 1558 ExecStart=/usr/share/corosync/corosync start (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS)

        Main PID: 1652 (corosync)

        CGroup: /system.slice/corosync.service

        +-1652 corosync

        Mar 31 18:20:46 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1652]: [VOTEQ ] Waiting for all cluster members. Current votes: 1 expected_votes: 2

        Mar 31 18:20:46 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1652]: [QUORUM] Members[1]: 1

        Mar 31 18:20:46 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1652]: [MAIN ] Completed service synchronization, ready to provide service.

        Mar 31 18:20:46 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1652]: [TOTEM ] A new membership (192.168.56.31:68) was formed. Members joined: 2

        Mar 31 18:20:46 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1652]: [VOTEQ ] Waiting for all cluster members. Current votes: 1 expected_votes: 2

        Mar 31 18:20:46 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1652]: [QUORUM] This node is within the primary component and will provide service.

        Mar 31 18:20:46 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1652]: [QUORUM] Members[2]: 1 2

        Mar 31 18:20:46 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1652]: [MAIN ] Completed service synchronization, ready to provide service.

        Mar 31 18:20:47 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com corosync[1558]: Starting Corosync Cluster Engine (corosync): [ OK ]

        Mar 31 18:20:47 nsa00.systemd.willeat.your.babies.com systemd[1]: Started Corosync Cluster Engine.

        Great, systemd is giving me way more information and control than ever before, and it is modernizing the painful daemon/service management in Linux I must oppose it vehemently!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: MS is trapped

          Meanwhile Windows Server users just see a nice green list / picture of cluster resources without having to digest all that crap...

    2. mrmond

      Re: MS is trapped

      "Unfortunately, Linux is not far behind in this scenario.."

      I think you'll find Linux has been ported to just about every architecture available and has been for years.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        The 1990s called. They wanted their x86-centric world back,

        "Linux has been ported to just about every architecture available and has been for years."

        Quite.

        Just out of interest, anybody know whether MS and Intel share any board members, or major investors?

    3. PNGuinn
      Trollface

      "SystemD is a step in the right direction to break Linux into smaller, better integrated pieces"

      Er - I thought all systemd needed was its oun kernel and an improved replacement for EMACS to be the operating system to end all operating systems....

    4. P. Lee

      Re: MS is trapped

      It isn't the OS that trapped MS. They have the resources to make it work.

      However, they made a couple of mistakes. When Apple ported OSX, they went all-in and the it worked. MS didn't produce a feature-complete Windows for ARM. That might have been due to ARM's reduced power vs Intel, but it was a mistake.

      The differences between intel Windows and ARM Windows put it in the "too hard" and "MS obviously isn't committed to it" category as far as devs were concerned. I'm not saying a feature-complete Windows would have worked, but Apple & Google have done their mobile OS as "something completely different" from OSX and Linux. I'm not sure there's a place for a third "something completely different" in the market without a serious USP. MS' USP was not "its just Windows" because it wasn't.

      Sticking to x86 is a good idea for MS. It doesn't have to be significantly better than ARM at a hardware level, it just has to be "good enough" and make the devs' and users' problems managing another platform go away. Then MS just have to work out how companies can get employees to pay for company-controlled assets.

      1. Hi Wreck

        Re: MS is trapped

        It's not the kernel that's ossified, it's the applications. Windows itself suffers from 'junk DNA' which has accumulated throughout the years resulting in the bloated mess that exists today. The windows kernel has run on a variety of platforms in the past, and will continue to do so with windows 10, as MS plans on running it on pretty well everything. The brilliance of Apple (and DEC for that matter when moving from the VAX to the Alpha) was the ability to translate legacy code to a new architecture (rosetta for Apple). Furthermore, Apple deprecates code faster than most people change their underwear, so old applications either adapt or die. If MS had allowed legacy x86 cruft to run on ARMs or Itanics [sic], perhaps the x86 would have sunk to it's most richly deserved place on the bottom of the ocean.

        1. Mark 65

          Re: MS is trapped

          Apple deprecates code faster than most people change their underwear, so old applications either adapt or die. If MS had allowed legacy x86 cruft to run on ARMs or Itanics [sic], perhaps the x86 would have sunk to it's most richly deserved place on the bottom of the ocean.

          One key point is that MS is used in the enterprise and big organisations will not tolerate "everything breaks from version 1 to version 2 so best upgrade all your apps". Apple operates mainly in the consumer space where you can just tell people to suck it up.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: MS is trapped

          "Windows itself suffers from 'junk DNA' which has accumulated throughout the years resulting in the bloated mess that exists today"

          Windows Phone outperforms Android and has longer battery life when installed on identical hardware, so that 'Junk DNA' obviously hasn't caused too many issues.

          "The brilliance of Apple (and DEC for that matter when moving from the VAX to the Alpha) was the ability to translate legacy code to a new architecture"

          Like Microsoft's "run anywhere" application architecture you mean? And the fact that the Windows kernel has supported far more CPU architectures than either of those 2 vendors?

          1. oldcoder

            Re: MS is trapped

            MS "run anywhere" is a misnomer. It only runs on Intel.

            And the Windows kernel hasn't supported more than one architecture for years. And when it did run, it was ported by the manufacturers of those other architectures, not by MS.

            MS has never supported other architectures on its own.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: MS is trapped

              Wrong on all points - It will run on any Windows 10 system regardless of the CPU. The only requirement is to customise for GUI size and other input differences - e.g. phone, tablet and desktop.

              Windows runs on ARM, x86 and x64 right now. No other manufacturer has ever ported Windows kernel - all ports and support have always been via Microsoft.

            2. Richard Plinston

              Re: MS is trapped

              > And when it did run, it was ported by the manufacturers of those other architectures, not by MS.

              Actually Windows NT was initially written on and for MIPS (after i860 was evaluated and discarded) and was ported to x86. At the time the best x86 was the 386 and was probably 20MHz - too slow to be any use in development.

              It is likely that manufacturers had a high involvement in porting to their chips but Microsoft was heavily involved.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: MS is trapped

              "MS has never supported other architectures on its own."

              Correct. Without the Advanced RISC Computing consortium ACE scheme (DEC, IBM, MIPS, and others) there would have almost certainly have been no NT on RISC.

              NT wasn't even written inside MS. It was imported, like so much else MS are famous for. It came, with Dave Cutler and his team and the OS source code, from DEC. It was software that had been targeted at a DEC-developed microprocessor that never hit the market, but which could be (and was) readily re-targeted to other processors: initially x86, then others.

              On seeing what was going on, the idiot then in charge at DEC (Bob Palmer), let MS get away with it, in return for Gates privately promising that he'd play nice with DEC in future.

              This is the same Gates who later told Palmer "You can be Larry's friend or you can be my friend" and f***ed up NT on Alpha [1] (Larry Ellison, of Oracle, for the younger readers, was at one time an important, very important, man to system vendors).

              MS's improvements to NT have included a shinier GUI being radically and incompatibly revised every few years, and more security holes than the holiest Swiss cheese.

              As for the wit who suggested that there was some relationship between WinCE. PocketPC, HPC and Windows/x86: what are you smoking? Same company, different (and incompatible) products. Nothing in common but the name and (if you're feeling generous) a tiny few MS integrated products (MS IE 4, anyone?).

              A small part of the serious "equipment" market moved their equipment from WinCE onto Windows XP Embedded. and will (unlike the rest of us) be provided with updates for XP for another few years. I doubt very much if many of them will move beyond XP Embedded.

              Others (huge numbers of others) have already gone for embedded Linux (mostly on ARM), or a handful of other non Wintel alternatives.

              [1] http://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/10/business/digital-employees-tell-of-threats-by-gates-over-product.html

              1. Richard Plinston

                Re: MS is trapped

                > On seeing what was going on, the idiot then in charge at DEC (Bob Palmer), let MS get away with it,

                Microsoft paid DEC a settlement of 65 to 100 million.

                """ "Why the Fastest Chip Didn't Win" (Business Week, April 28, 1997) states that when Digital engineers noticed the similarities between VMS and NT, they brought their observations to senior management. Rather than suing, Digital cut a deal with Microsoft. In the summer of 1995, Digital announced Affinity for OpenVMS, a program that required Microsoft to help train Digital NT technicians, help promote NT and Open-VMS as two pieces of a three-tiered client/server networking solution, and promise to maintain NT support for the Alpha processor. Microsoft also paid Digital between 65 million and 100 million dollars."""

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Microsoft paid DEC a settlement of 65 to 100 million.

                  How much were DEC paying MS for PC licences at the time? How much did Gates promise would be waiting for DEC's services business in terms of Windows-centred opportunities via Affinity and otherwise?

                  How much actually materialised in terms of 'compensatory opportunities'? How much did they cost DEC internally (eg making themselves one of the first serious large-scale Exchange-based outfits)? (Hint: there were several occasions when Exchange in the UK was dysfunctional for weeks).

                  There's a book to write on the subject. Maybe it's already been written; people I know have recommended "DEC is dead; long live DEC". I haven't read it yet.

                  "Digital cut a deal with Microsoft."

                  Palmer and friends cut a deal. (It was DIGITAL, btw. The capitalisation apparently mattered, to HQ),

                  "Affinity for OpenVMS"

                  Put another way, Palmer (a chip man at heart, with little clue about serious software) had been convinced that 'VMS is past it. NT is the future." That was a long time ago, and may still turn out to have been not quite right.

                  For those who may not be aware, VMS had a last minute resurrection last year, outside HP, courtesy of a new company called VMS Software Inc.

                  Despite Palmer's efforts to do down VMS (and Alpha), VMS is still around, customers still value some of its unique features, and as of last year VMS has returned to being developed and supported by many of the original VMS team, in New England. Outside HP. An x86-64 version is on the cards, but in the meantime many people and organisations are already running VMS in x86-based emulators of VAX and Alpha hardware.

                  Alongside that, Palmer's preferred replacement for Alpha, the Itanic (coincidentally involving another Palmer-era settlement for ideas stolen from DEC) is also dead in real terms. Even Intel have finally admitted it.

                  VMS isn't dead, but NT is heading for the clouds. Who would have thought it, except perhaps people who really knew about VMS and NT, and people who really knew about Alpha and IA64...

                  "[Gates] promise[d] to maintain NT support for the Alpha processor"

                  That worked well didn't it. For Gates. Not so well for anyone else. Not that Gates ever really delivered much in practical terms. An Alpha version of a server OS, for a bried period of time. Office? Well, arguably. But in a hobbled build with the debug code left in, and with many of the same issues that an Office for ARM would have two decades later.

                  What did Gates put on the table for Alpha beyond that? About the same as has been on the table for ARM recently, ie nothing much at all.

                  Should anybody be particularly surprised at any of this? Not really.

                  That Business Week article:

                  http://www.businessweek.com/1997/17/b3524142.htm

                  Further reading, also pre-Itanium:

                  http://windowsitpro.com/windows-client/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story

      2. Richard Plinston

        Re: MS is trapped

        > MS didn't produce a feature-complete Windows for ARM. That might have been due to ARM's reduced power vs Intel, but it was a mistake.

        It seems to me that RT/Windows On ARM achieved its objectives. At the time HP were about to release the ARM tablets running WebOS and Dell had ARM Android tablets. MS controls its OEMs via 'loyalty' discounts. If the go too far away from MS they get their discounts on all products removed. It worked for Netbooks when XP was brought back from the dead - Vista was never going to run.

        With WOA MS could wave 'discounts' at WebOS and make it go away, and at Dell to kill their Android projects. Job done so now RT can fade away.

      3. Deltics

        Re: MS is trapped

        That "reduced power" of ARM makes for one killer feature of the RT slabs: Ridiculous battery life!

        By which I mean ridiculously GOOD. That's as compared not only to the Intel Surface's but also iPad's, especially given that a Surface Rt can actually be used to DO stuff on, not just view funny cat videos.

        Yes, I know you didn't mean "reduced power CONSUMPTION", but as far as horsepower goes, even my first gen RT has enough under the hood to do all the things it can and does do (well duh!). The things it doesn't do aren't actually all that relevant on a tablet. Run Windows desktop apps you say ?

        Ah yes - what a glorious squinty eyed exercise in frustrated poking at miniscule UI elements those are, on a tablet.

        The biggest mistake MS made with Surface RT was not in having a Desktop environment that was incomplete (i.e unable to run x86 apps) but in having any desktop environment AT ALL !!

        On a tablet with pretensions to be a laptop or even desktop replacement, sure there may be some grunt lacking. And seriously so. But for a tablet that is a companion to a desktop/laptop, it was damned near perfect, as a piece of hardware.

        1. Richard Plinston

          Re: MS is trapped

          > Surface Rt can actually be used to DO stuff on, not just view funny cat videos.

          I am not sure why you think that iPads (and Androids) can't be used to "DO stuff". It must be because you know nothing about what is available for those. There are plenty of office apps (see especially WPS), code editors, even complete IDEs. What languages can you code, develop and run _on_ a Surface RT ? There are several for iPad and Android tablets.

          Please do provide _evidence_ for your snear, list what you can DO on Surface RT that can't be done on iPad and Androids.

          1. Mark 65

            Re: MS is trapped

            iPads and tablets can generally be used to do stuff, but that stuff is mainly email and browse. At home I still gravitate back to the desktop for most things. Photo processing - yep, video - yep, spreadsheet - yep, most things - yep. It's the fact it has a big screen, craploads of storage, a mouse, a keyboard (both of which are highly accurate) and is incredibly fast.

            I don't shop on a tablet and most sites are still crap to use in this regard and password managers are a pain in the arse. I have much more faith in my PC with firefox, adblock, betterprivacy, lastpass etc added in.

            I read emails on it, maybe do some light browsing, and maybe look through photos I have been arsed to sync to it. Used to use it for movies when flying. The kids get much more use out of it these days. Some apps are useful but given most will be on my PC I'm not keen on paying twice.

      4. oldcoder

        Re: MS is trapped

        "Feature complete" would fail - as all the active X and code embedded in data would fail. For those to work, MS would have to include an X86 interpreter... and the result bloat the system, and make it very slow.

        MS being trapped is MS own fault. They did not support Intel when Intel started to migrate to a RISC processor with the Itanium. Even now, Intel uses RISC technology, as the X86 is actually being interpreted by a RISC processor - being front ended by a translator layer for the really poor X86 architecture.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: MS is trapped

      So much ignorance in one post is quite breathtaking...

      "Layers upon layers of ossified x86 code doomed any exit for Microsoft from the Intel platform a long time ago."

      You do realize that 99.9% of Windows code is C/C++ etc., not x86 assembly language, don't you?

      "Unlike Apple's elegant leaps from architecture to architecture due to the Mach microkernel's small dependency footprint."

      Also written in C/Obj C.

      "Unfortunately, Linux is not far behind in this scenario.. it has the same large monolithic LSB 'kernel'. However, being open-source, it at least has a fighting chance to evolve - SystemD is a step in the right direction to break Linux into smaller, better integrated pieces."

      None of that makes any sense.

      "Not being able to even make it onto the architecturally similar ARM means Microsoft products are doomed to remain on the sidelines of mobile as well as the new more efficient server designs being rolled out, not to mention any radical new architectures that may appear on the scene."

      Windows made it onto ARM 15 years ago, in many incarnations - WinCE, Pocket PC and Mobile, Windows Phone. Windows 10 is on ARM phones and there will be an IoT version for the Raspberry Pi.

      Windows server made it on to several other architectures - MIPS, DEC Alpha, Power PC, Itanium.

      Not to mention all the applications on iOS and Android - no x86 code to be found anywhere there.

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: MS is trapped

        >> "Layers upon layers of ossified x86 code doomed any exit for Microsoft from the Intel platform a long time ago."

        > You do realize that 99.9% of Windows code is C/C++ etc., not x86 assembly language, don't you?

        That is not what was referred to. NT ran on many different architectures: MIPS, Alpha, Itanium, .. but that didn't solve the problem which is the thousands of applications that are locked to x86/x86-64.

        > None of that makes any sense.

        Your inability to make sense of it is not a constraint.

        > Windows server made it on to several other architectures - MIPS, DEC Alpha, Power PC, Itanium.

        But the applications did not. Office ran on Alpha in x86 emulation mode. Users don't buy machines to run the OS, they buy them to run their applications. Even in C/C++ it can be hard to get running on a different processor, and of course if the application is not open source (or in-house) then converting and recompiling is not even an option.

        1. John Sanders
          Thumb Up

          Re: MS is trapped

          """Users don't buy machines to run the OS, they buy them to run their applications."""

          Thank you! I have been saying that for years and no one seems to get it.

    6. jason 7

      Re: MS is trapped

      I don't see that.

      MS has woken up that it's not about which architecture you are on, it's purely about getting your software on as many different machines and devices as possible.

      So where is MS today? I think they are now a good few years ahead really. All these folks talking about out dated, clunky code etc. etc. but then here we are with £60 tablets running full Windows in a perfectly usable fashion. A Windows that's the same broad experience and connectivity across desktop, laptop, tablet and phone.

      That doesn't happen by accident.

    7. John Sanders
      Linux

      Re: MS is trapped

      You do not know what you are talking about, clearly not a clue on the Windows side, and on the Linux side even less so.

  7. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Happy

    That's a relief!

    I was worried there for a while. Fortunately ARM can now carry on developing new ideas with out the ball & chain of Microsoft's 'requirements'.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Great news!

    Can we have Secure Boot off of it now ?

    1. h4rm0ny

      Re: Great news!

      Yes. Enter the UEFI BIOS and slide "Secure Boot" to the "Disabled" or "Off" position.

      If you can't do that, you probably shouldn't be turning it off.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @h4rm0ny - Re: Great news!

        On ARM ? Are you sure ? Look at my hand, how many distinct fingers can you count ?

        1. h4rm0ny
          Facepalm

          Re: @h4rm0ny - Great news!

          >>"On ARM ? Are you sure ? Look at my hand, how many distinct fingers can you count ?"

          You realize that the entire point of the article you are commenting on is that MS have shifted the latest Surface off ARM and onto x86? How many fingers can I count on your hand? Six, probably, based on your evidenced intelligence.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            @h4rm0ny - Re: @h4rm0ny - Great news!

            I was aware of that and, since MS is no longer interested in ARM platform, I asked politely if manufacturers can now be allowed to let us disable SecureBoot on ARM devices so we can install other OS on them.

            You failed your second attempt too!

            1. h4rm0ny
              FAIL

              Re: @h4rm0ny - @h4rm0ny - Great news!

              >>"I was aware of that and, since MS is no longer interested in ARM platform, I asked politely if manufacturers can now be allowed to let us disable SecureBoot on ARM devices so we can install other OS on them.

              >>You failed your second attempt too!

              MS only this week announced a Windows version for Rasberry Pi (an ARM platform if you're not aware) and are most certainly building OSs on ARM so you're clearly wrong that "MS is no longer interested". Secondly, MS is not preventing manufacturers from selling ARM devices with undisablable Secure Boot anywhere I'm aware of so you should really be directing your question to the OEMs. What device is it you think MS have caused it to be locked on - specific names, please. Because if you're talking about MS forcing the hand of OEMs you plainly can't mean the Surface RT / Surface 2.

              "Failed my second attempt?" Seriously? You're the one who launched in here with one-line off-topic posts wrapped up in snark about how many fingers you were holding up, not me.

              1. Richard Plinston

                Re: @h4rm0ny - @h4rm0ny - Great news!

                > MS is not preventing manufacturers from selling ARM devices with undisablable Secure Boot anywhere I'm aware of

                Your lack of awareness is not relevant. Microsoft imposed a requirement on ARM based Windows RT that it have secure boot without the ability to turn it off.

                """However, ARM machines don't have this same stipulation. In fact, they do the reverse; Secure Boot is mandatory and permanent on ARM machines, including Surface."""

                > a Windows version for Rasberry Pi

                It is an 'Internet of Things' version of Windows 10. This is not really 'Windows'. While some form of 'Universal Apps' may run later the primary API of IoT is the Arduino Wiin API. There will be a subset of Win32. The current IoT version does not have a UI nor any display.

                It is unlikely that the Pi will have a 'secure boot' for IoT.

  9. IGnatius T Foobar

    Wintel4evah?

    Just goes to show you, Microsoft is incapable of anything other than Windows on Intel. And the ARM world tells them in unison: "Goodbye, dinosaur."

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wintel4evah?

      Is there some mysterious virus going around that causes extreme ignorance? I hope I don't catch it!

    2. Afernie

      Re: Wintel4evah?

      "Just goes to show you, Microsoft is incapable of anything other than Windows on Intel. And the ARM world tells them in unison: "Goodbye, dinosaur."

      I guess nobody told the Raspberry Pi Foundation, eh?

      https://dev.windows.com/en-us/featured/raspberrypi2support

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: Wintel4evah?

        > I guess nobody told the Raspberry Pi Foundation, eh?

        Windows 10 for the Pi2 is just the IoT (Internet of Things) version.

        1. Afernie

          Re: Wintel4evah?

          "Windows 10 for the Pi2 is just the IoT (Internet of Things) version."

          And?

  10. kmac499

    tesco pico surface

    The Missus bought a Tesco Connect 7 inch at the weekend, for her sewing machine.(Don't ask). Just like the surface it comes with 1yr Office 365 plus a £10 Blinkbox voucher and a few clubcard points for the princely sum of £59. I was so impressed I nipped back and bought myself one.

    A quick root in the bottom drawer of long lost kit to retrieve an old Bluetooth Keyboard and HDMI cable to a suitable display job done.

    1. h4rm0ny

      Re: tesco pico surface

      Similar, but I got a Linx tablet. Very good value. However, the Pen on this device could be a really big plus. Great for both taking notes and for meetings where you want to whiteboard things and just hit save at the end.

  11. Brahe

    Surface 3 user . . .

    Most Surface 3 users likely do not and/or will not care about the technical issues of this tablet outside the range of being a consumer of Internet and Store Apps; most will use it and like it.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bob, Zune, Clippy, and Steve Ballmer

    Windows Phone, surface, office, xbox, Windows 8, likely pay with real money versions of Windows 10 too.

    Does Microsoft have anything left that's not a turd that's been rolled in glitter to try and get a few last remaining sales?

    1. John Sanders
      Linux

      Re: Bob, Zune, Clippy, and Steve Ballmer

      Yes, how about 92% of the world's office desktop computers and laptops?

      Poor poor Microsoft...

      1. keithpeter Silver badge
        Windows

        Re: Bob, Zune, Clippy, and Steve Ballmer

        "Yes, how about 92% of the world's office desktop computers and laptops?

        Poor poor Microsoft..."

        The younger people I work with do associate Microsoft as a brand mainly with work. And that means office PCs that are mostly OK but a bit slow.

        We run some decidedly clunky 'business applications' that have UIs that appear to have been designed by someone who likes cluttered and difficult to read screens, and who appears to believe that the published procedures actually represent the way tasks are completed.

        These business applications have nothing to do with MS of course, but they are associated in our minds with the Microsoft logo - which we have lots of time to see as we watch the little arrow chasing itself around the circle.

        My younger co-workers will be making the decisions in a decade or two. This I suspect may be the reason for Microsoft's foray into lower end hardware including this new tablet.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bob, Zune, Clippy, and Steve Ballmer

      Surface is selling over $1 billion a quarter and growing rapidly - hardly a failure.

      Once Surface Pro 4 comes out (with proper mobile optimised CPUs) I think Microsoft will start to make a serious dent in Apple's high end tablet business....

  13. Mage Silver badge
    Windows

    Hoist by own petard?

    Maybe.

    A victim of the success of the legacy products. Why buy MS products if it can't run your old programs?

    This why Vista, Win7, Win8, etc are having difficultly wiping out XP and the risk for Win10.

    They need to break completely with past, a new OS not called Windows for ARM, x86 and whatever.

    AND

    issue a new 100% XP compatible Windows Classic.

    The RT ARM experience and Win 8.0 shows one foot in each of two camps is a failed strategy.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Well I think it looks great....

    The real, ongoing problem for Surface is the tablet apps. They either don't exist or are piss poor compared to their iOS and Android equivalents*. OTOH, as a spare laptop to have when travelling, and an armchair web browsing device, the new surface looks great.

    * BBC iPlayer? Sky Go? Nope. 4OD? No download. Evernote? Pants! Kindle? Double pants!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well I think it looks great....

      SKy GO? I just use it in the desktop browser - once you start a movie there's no difference if it's an app or not. The Kindle app works pretty well. Don't use Evernote, because I really find OneNote a far better application - and pen input makes it a breeze to use-, but it does exist.

      While being able to run the full Lightroom instead of the neutered mobile version available on iOS is a big advantage while travelling.... and all in one device, no need to carry around a laptop and a tablet.

      1. damworker

        Re: Well I think it looks great....

        I have the 8 inch Argos version. I do like it but its too fiddly a lot of the time. Windows desktop is only just usable with a touch screen at 8 inches and would be less usable with a smaller screen. The cheap ones tend to lack main memory so I get the occasional long pause and the odd "you are about to run out of memory" message but mostly it's ok.

        Fiddly? hitting the maximise not the exit button on a window means I hit minimise 2 times before getting it right. Likewise getting the stop button not the volume (or whatever) button in video. Where I used to pick up an ipad for browsing or viewing I don't with the windows tablet. I like the flexibility of the windows tablet but the cost is usability. I now have a BT mini keyboard/trackpad which works well but an android/ipad doesn't need one. Wouldn't recommend unless you absolutely need a pc app.

    2. Afernie
      Facepalm

      Re: Well I think it looks great....

      "BBC iPlayer? Sky Go? Nope. 4OD? No download. Evernote? Pants! Kindle? Double pants!"

      It's entirely possible to use each and everyone of those services on Windows tablets, either using an App in the case of Kindle and Evernote, or this advanced technology you may have heard of called a web browser.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well I think it looks great....

        iPlayer: Sub par experience on web, on my Asus T100, compared to Android and iOS apps.

        40D: No facility download content, using the Windows Universal App.

        Evernote: Crap compared to iOS and Android versions.

        Kindle: Crap compared to iOS and Android versions*.

        * The bloody thing didn't even properly download the whole book, first time I tried it.

  15. stu 4

    Linx 7 inch

    Got a Linx 7 inch bay trail windows 8.1 tablet last week - 69 quid.

    32gb eMMC.

    Or tescos does the 16gb one with a lumia phone for 89 quid!

    Why ? Well...the one windows machine I run in the house is got serving my 4 webcams out (using netcam studio) - I thought this would be quieter and more efficient.

    For 65 quid you get a full regular windows machine - install any regular x86/x64 stuff.

    most of the time spent was un-windows8ing it so it was actually usable - but then it works a treat.

    Unlike the atoms of old, with the new GPUs, you've got adequate power for full HD video playback, does netflix, et all fine - it's actually a pretty useable little mini computer - if you treat it like that rather than as a tablet - I think they are worth a look.

  16. 0laf

    Still quite expensive

    Ok these are lots cheaper than the Surface 3 Pro 12" but that's only because that is very expensive.

    £500 for an atom 10" tab, + stylus £50, + keyboard £100.

    Then if you're a business you have to add the extras for MS's esoteric licensing. This is quite an expensive budget device

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Meh

    The usual

    Pretty much everything Microsoft does now is late, not quite finished, derivative - albeit with the odd good idea, and an expensive copy of something better already out there.

    The Surface 3 continues the tradition.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The usual

      "Pretty much everything Microsoft does now is late, not quite finished, derivative - albeit with the odd good idea, and an expensive copy of something better already out there."

      Like HoloLens for instance?

      http://www.microsoft.com/microsoft-hololens/en-us

      Or Kinect?

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: The usual

        >> "Pretty much everything Microsoft does now is late, not quite finished, derivative - albeit with the odd good idea, and an expensive copy of something better already out there."

        > Like HoloLens for instance? Or Kinect?

        I am not sure if you are supporting the original poster or attempting to provide counter examples.

        Kinect is a product licencesd from an Israeli company with software written by Rare in the UK. I remember from New Scientist in the 70s reading about headsets that projected 3D images that merged with reality. In that particular article it was used to study computer generated images of blood flow around heart valves. Obviously the technology has improved over the 30 years or so but Hololens is just another step.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The usual

          Rare is part of Microsoft. What Microsoft licensed from PrimeSense (the Israeli company) was the range camera technology...The resulting product itself is pretty unique.

          Link for the claimed 1970s "Hololens" invention? Or it didn't happen.

          1. Richard Plinston

            Re: The usual

            > Rare is part of Microsoft.

            Rare is _now_ part of Microsoft because they bought them to get the software.

            > Link for the claimed 1970s "Hololens" invention? Or it didn't happen.

            "Hololens" is just the latest iteration of technology that started to be developed and used in the 1970s. Being able to see the real world while having an image projected into a local space via goggles and having a computer keep track of your movement and hand gestures has been around since then. It was just horrifically expensive.

            """What you see isn't a holograph or a hologram; it's a projection - but it's being projected onto holographically printed lenses, which lets Microsoft produce very cheaply the extremely complex lenses that turn the projection into the 3D image you see. """

  18. Handy Plough

    When was Ballmer ever a good idea? Right from the start his tenure was doomed to failure.

  19. carlos_c
    Megaphone

    Does have its uses

    If I was a musician I'be be tempted by a Surface if only for this - Staffpad music notation software

    http://microsoft-news.com/staffpad-is-a-new-music-composition-app-designed-specifically-for-surface-watch-it-in-action/

    Looks very elegant and uses the pen very well

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    That's why we call it Wintel

    Looks like MS has decided to come home to Intel after a brief foray into the ARMs of another.

    Proving that even with all its marketing hype... er, clout, MS can't ignore Intel's need to ship product.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    People have asked me: "Mr Coward - just what is the difference between Microsoft Surface 2 and Microsoft Surface 3?"

    And I answer: "1".

    1. h4rm0ny
      Paris Hilton

      >>People have asked me: "Mr Coward - just what is the difference between Microsoft Surface 2 and Microsoft Surface 3?" And I answer: "1".

      Funny, I got 86.

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