back to article Assange™ lawyers demand Swedish prosecution files or no London interview

Lawyers for Julian Assange™ have said they want access to all files held by Swedish prosecutors on their client before they can grant an interview with him. According to an AFP report, Assange's defence is to demand access to the Swedish officials' "förundersökningsprotokoll", a dossier normally only made available to the …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    He twists and he turns

    So he flees questioning, takes refuge and says he will only answer question if they come to him. They say they will come to him and now he he wants to bend the rules around him again.

    So what's the excuse this time, other being a total attention whore?

    1. Gotno iShit Wantno iShit

      Re: He twists and he turns

      [speculation]

      Or he's guilty, he knows it, and he's stalling because there's a statute of limitations nearing.

      [/speculation]

      No such thing for his breach of bail. I wonder if he's made any money as a result of being in the Embassy rather than in jug. Hope so, POCA should then ensure the taxpayer gets some money back for the cost of plod being on his doorstep for 4 years.

      1. SolidSquid

        Re: He twists and he turns

        In most cases the statute of limitations would only apply if the court proceedings had not been initiated for a set duration. Since they already have (and they're trying to bring him into custody) he can't argue this case. I suspect what he's actually trying to do is to make his prosecution such a black mark, both for the cost involved and his framing it as him being detained for over 1000 days that they'll eventually give up. It's not *likely* but if he's guilty it might be the only hope he's got. Then first chance he gets he disappears to Equador

        1. Ian Michael Gumby
          Black Helicopters

          Re: He twists and he turns

          They have already said that the statute of limitations is almost near.

          They haven't charged him yet and I believe according to Swedish law, they need to interview him before they can formally charge him.

          The Swedes don't have to show him anything ahead of time. Suppose they do and then he decides that they don't have enough information to convince a jury. He could then go back and face trial. If they do have enough information to convict, then he can sit out in the embassy. A win/win for Assange and a lose / lose for Sweden.

          But here's the irony.

          Because Assange jumped bail in the UK... suppose that Julian waits out Sweden and is then free to go because the statute of limitation ran out? He still faces the jumping bail and when that's done normally he could just go free and the UK can say please leave the country. Or Not.

          And that's the thing. The UK doesn't just have to let him go. They can opt to choose to force him back to Australia for being a prat and costing them $$$$$.

          Assange doesn't get to go to Ecuador or anywhere else.

          He could also lose his passport too. (ABC news talked about this moons ago when the whole extradition hearing started. ) And that's got to worry poor Assange because he shat on them too.

          So Sweden is really a moot point if you're looking at the end game.

          1. AnotherBird

            Re: He twists and he turns -- on limitations.

            The statue of limitation is a law to force the prosecution or the complainant to be diligent in seeking "justice." It is not a tool to be used by the accused. If the prosecutor or the complainant can demonstrate in court that they have been diligent and the situation is exceptional then the statue of limitation is tolled.

            It is about who has been more diligent in moving the legal proceedings forward. It is unknown how far the prosecution needs to being the case forward, but Julian Assange's stalling tactics do not help him at all. He seems more intent on making matters ever worse than they already are.

            1. Grunchy Silver badge

              Re: He twists and he turns -- on limitations.

              In Canada, we have no statute of limitations. If you commit a crime in Canada, they can seek justice against you at any time. It might take years to gather enough evidence to make a successful prosecution, so the prosecution is allowed to take how ever long as they want or need.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: He twists and he turns

          The applicable statute of limitations law is Swedish, so presumably follows different conventions.

        3. Mark 85

          Re: He twists and he turns

          Then first chance he gets he disappears to Equador

          I rather like that idea.. let's just get someone to airdrop him in from, say 10,000 feet. Lots of nice jungle there for him to hide and get lost in and hopefully never be heard from again.

          1. Tom 13

            Re: I rather like that idea.

            At first glance I did too.

            Then I realized we have no right to inflict Assange on an innocent piranha or boa constrictor.

      2. Anakin
        Facepalm

        Re: He twists and he turns

        The victim invited Assange to a party several days after the so-called rape and bragged of her fine companion on facebook.

        Several days later, she met another lady who also bragged about her fine cavalier.

        For some strange reason they went both well-known feminists after they discovered that they both had had sex with him to the police who then made a separate notification of rape which then was shut down by a prosecutor.

        At the same time the bragging on facebook was deleted

        Then resumed the known feminists Clas Borgström and Marianne Ny this notification.

        A little about what we're dealing with, you can read translated here

        http://goo.gl/yGQ7Dt

        What i personally think of it?

        I think Assange is a player and a pig when it comes to woman.

        I don't think it was a rape but maby a bit humilating sex act and then it catched a political flu.

        Everything is so strange.

        Assange was clear to leave the country according to documents and Marriane Ny is trying to convince everybody that an arrest order was out when he was at the airport and passed security controll.

        We must remember we are dealing with well known rabid feminists in high places here.

        1. Ian Michael Gumby

          @Anakin Re: He twists and he turns

          "I think Assange is a player and a pig when it comes to woman.

          I don't think it was a rape but maby a bit humilating sex act and then it catched a political flu."

          But in Sweden it was rape when you don't wear a raincoat and the woman says no sex without a raincoat.

          There's more to it but where his actions wouldn't be rape in a lot of different countries... it is under the law in Sweden.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Anakin He twists and he turns

            There's more to it but where his actions wouldn't be rape in a lot of different countries... it is under the law in Sweden.

            He's progressed to the highest court in the UK as well to find out the same would be true in the UK.

            Given that he shat on so many people I would not be inclined to entertain any demand little Julian or his herd of lawyers may dream up. What he needs to do is clear - he's not special so he has to face what any of us would have to face. If there really is nothing to the Swedish claims it should not be a problem to go to Sweden (if allowed from the UK) and sit it out.

            I suspect he *does* have something to hide, which is rather ironic.

            1. Tom 13

              Re: I suspect he *does* have something to hide

              I suppose that depend on what you mean by "have something to hide."

              I suspect that what he'd guilty of is being male and a cad, which was compounded by being fool enough to have sex with ideologically fanatical feminists. I suspect it was not what logical people would think of as rape, and have my doubts that it even was even rape by Sweden's definition. But given their ideological bent, I wouldn't want to find out whether or not the feminists would be willing to perjure themselves in court, especially if I was the only witness.

              All that being said, he's still in a stew of his own making and needs to pay the piper.

              1. Ian Michael Gumby

                @Tom13 Re: I suspect he *does* have something to hide

                Unless you're one of the judges involved, it doesn't matter what you think.

                As I said in an earlier post its what the prosecutor and the courts thing in SWEDEN.

                Even though the courts in the UK said that 2 of the 4 counts, if true, would be considered rape in the UK. To your point, there are countries where none of this would be considered rape, or even if it was, it wouldn't warrant the extradition. THAT's WHY HE FLED JURISDICTION. He gambled and lost.

                You claim that the women would perjure themselves if this went to court. Hardly. The real question is if their testimony is strong enough to get Assange convicted. His running will influence the courts as to which side is being truthful...

                1. Tom 13

                  Re: @Tom13 I suspect he *does* have something to hide

                  Sorry, I come from the land of Kings. MY opinion always counts.

                  There are multiple reports that BOTH women had FB posts in which they bragged about the encounters. Until they met each other and changed their stories, at which point they pulled their FB posts. To me that says:

                  1. Assange had consensual sex with both women.

                  2. The women enjoyed the sex and initially thought it empowered their feminism.

                  3. The women later met and talked. At which point they changed their minds about it.

                  4. They took down their previous FB posts about the encounters.

                  5. They filed charges.

                  I don't care what country you live in, you MUST to have a reasonable chance of KNOWING whether or not what you were about to do was legal. Whether or not it was legal CANNOT depend on how someone feels about something weeks or months after the event.

                  1. AnotherBird

                    Re: FB post bragged

                    Yes, even one is allowed to their opinion even when that is all it is.

                    There have been a lot of reports about the women when have never been true, let alone having supporting information to demonstrate them to be true. If it is states that something existed and was later deleted then it never existed.

                    1. Based on the allegations at 4 incidents consent was absent.

                    2. They might have enjoyed it but at some point felt their rights were violated. Point (1)

                    3. More like the women felt empowered enough to go to the police together.

                    4. The FB never existed nor have been demonstrated to have existed.

                    5. They believed that their rights were violated.

                    Of course what Julian Assange was accused in Sweden violated Swedish laws. Sweden has a statue of limitation on when an individual can bring similar complaints forward, other countries have none. So, if it is 10 years then a person can bring the complaint forward 9 years after the event. This "weeks or months after the event" as a point of disbelief has no basis in law.

          2. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

            Re: @Anakin He twists and he turns

            The High Court in the UK assessed the allegations and said that at least 2 of them would amount to rape under UK law.

            1. Ian Michael Gumby

              Re: @Anakin He twists and he turns

              Sparty,

              Yes and no.

              First, rape is one of the 32 crimes that doesn't require parody between the two countries, so really its what Sweden says.

              While the high courts found that 2 of the 4 counts would still be considered rape in the UK, it meant that 2 counts wouldn't and of course there's the other issue.... getting a jury of his peers to find him guilty of the crime. That's where you will run in to difficulty. If you take everything at face value to be true, then you may have had a crime, yet during trial, if the defense can raise enough reasonable doubt... it makes going to trial moot.

              I don't know why the high courts even suggested this because it wasn't necessary under the language of the extradition treaty.

              But we're splitting hairs, we both agree that he needs to go back and face the music.

              Oddly enough... had he not even fled jurisdiction (with the assistance of his attorney, which said attorney admitted to under oath...) , had he been charged and faced a trial, the worst case outcome would have been 4 years or so. The odds are he would have gotten far less time if any.

              What this really points to is his character. And that says a lot.

              1. Anakin

                Re: @Anakin He twists and he turns

                "the worst case outcome would have been 4 years or so"

                Worst case is about 4 months in Sweden and a lifetime on Guantanamo and best case is just lifetime on gitmo

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Anakin He twists and he turns

            Assange is a great example of exactly why the treason laws need to be reinstated.

        2. AnotherBird
          FAIL

          Re: He twists and he turns re: bragged

          It was that she commented about being around the coolest "people." That is more than one person. If we understand about human nature it would be no surprise, and means absolutely nothing in relationship to the allegations. Being that up is the weakest defense that can be used for a person as famous as Assange, for an experienced litigator can turn it around to make matters worse for Assange.

        3. Grunchy Silver badge

          Re: He twists and he turns

          I guess it's muddled enough that it should be up to the court to decide.

          Time for Assange to face the music. For ALL of his (alleged) crimes.

          1. Tom 13

            Re: I guess it's muddled enough

            There's nothing muddled about it at all. Enough foolhardiness to embarrass a couple hundred million normal people, but not much actually muddled. The only question of any import will be "are the feminists lying their butts off" when they testify in court.

        4. LucreLout

          Re: He twists and he turns

          We must remember we are dealing with well known rabid feminists in high places here.

          So what? I have a general dislike for feminists, much as I have a general dislike for mysoginists. I have a much stronger dislike for rapists.

          If the lady in question consented on condition he bagged up, then those are the terms of the deal. She has every right to object if he has waited until she's asleep before attempting to leave her dripping: nobody enjoys a firey piss and he seems to have been putting it about like a puppy with two peckers.

          1. Tom 13

            @ LucreLout

            I'd concur with your sentiments if they filed the charges immediately after either encounter. But they didn't. In fact, they both bragged about how good it was. Until they met up with each other. At which point they both started singing the same song about being raped. I'm sorry, but if you didn't suspect it was rape at a time when you were not subject to mind altering drugs, it wasn't rape. This I think is the only true thing Assange has ever asserted.

            But he made his fame and fortune by associating with the sorts who don't give a damn about whether or not something is actually true so long as it advances The Cause, so as far as I'm concerned he's been hoist on his own petard. This is one of those rare cases where I do truly wish that when all parties were before the judge he'd throw them ALL in jail for making a mockery of justice. Yes, that includes all the lawyers except the actual prosecutor(s) who got saddled with the case.

            1. AnotherBird

              Re: bragged about how good it was

              Did both brag about it? No, they did not.

              There is only one accusation of rape and only one. Both women's complaints are entirely different, except for two points. The obvious is they are complaining about the same individual. In principle that what started out as being consensual, had incidents that were not consensual.

              With the most serious offense it is quite obvious that consent was absent. Sorry, but the courts nor the law use the standard you have suggested.

              What he is accused of was released before his first extradition hearing. It was also included in the initial hearing and the appeal.

              There can not be a desire to have "thrown them all in jail" when one does not even want to address the basics of the case.

            2. LucreLout

              Re: @ LucreLout

              I'd concur with your sentiments if they filed the charges immediately after either encounter. But they didn't. In fact, they both bragged about how good it was. Until they met up with each other. At which point they both started singing the same song about being raped.

              I wasn't there, so I don't know. I've never met or spoken to either woman involved, so again, I don't know.

              However, it is possible that each woman was embarrassed or ashamed about what had happened, and unsure about coming forward. Once they became aware that it was an ongoing pattern of behaviour for assange, they may have decided to act, either because each gave the other the confidence to do so, or because the need to break his behaviour pattern was now elevated byt he frequency of its occurrance.

              If all is as Assanges supporters say that it is, then there is zero risk or concern about being interviewed within the embassy. In no instance should his lawyers have chance to amend his story in relation to evidence gathered by the prosecution - his version of events must be recorded in full prior to that happening.

              The most ridiculous aspect of all this, is that once he has answered the questions and completed the interview, the prosecutor may very well decide that there is no case for him to answer.

          2. Anakin
            Facepalm

            Re: He twists and he turns

            After "the rape"

            " Julian want to visit a swedish crayfish party. Anyone got seats over?" "Julian vill gå på kräftskiva, nån som har ett par lediga platser ikväll el imorgon? "

            Notis the cashual tone in the tweet with only Julian and not Julian Assange or Assange.

            In sweden we know a guy is lost on the meat market when a woman say things like that.

            On the party after "the rape"

            "Sitting outside at 2am and not freeze at all with the coolest pepole in the world it's amazing" "Sitta ute kl 2 och knappt frysa med världens coolaste smartaste folk, det är ju amazing!"

            Mirrors with screen shots are hard to find after googles forget me and the womans deletion

            http://www.samtycke.nu/doc/AnnaArdin_cache19aug.htm

            The actual case is about if Assange tampered with the condom so it broke or if it just broke

            If Assange did something to brake the condom it is rape if the woman dont want to screw without.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I bet he's sick of the taste of Ferraro Rocher by now. "That ambassador and his smug fucking parties"

    1. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge
      Coat

      If I were going to fucking parties for 4 years I'd be pretty smug too, Ferrero Rocher or not. Smug and sore.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Fucking Ferrero Rochers for 4 years would probalby result in some severe nut rash.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          You know, in retrospect, I should probably have phrased that better.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Given his track record

    I hope his lawyer was smart enough to ask for cash up front.

    1. Ian Michael Gumby
      WTF?

      Re: Given his track record

      Huh?

      This is a defense case. You're always going to pay up front and then get billed. No money... no legal representation. Unless its a pro-bono case.

      1. Chad H.

        Re: Given his track record

        I think his point is that Jullian short changed a lot of people when he skipped bail.

        1. Ian Michael Gumby

          Re: Given his track record

          I know, but when dealing with lawyers you have 3 options...

          They take a retainer aka cash up front and then bill you.

          They take the case on contingency (getting paid from the payout)

          They do the work pro-bono for the good of the system if you can't afford proper representation.

          Since this is not a contingency case its one of the other two options.

          At one time, Assange could have gotten a lawyer pro-bono because of his idealism. However this isn't a potential ground breaking SCOTUS case, but one of a criminal act against an individual. (Rape)

          And Assange isn't destitute.

          Yes he caused his followers to part with cash because he's a scared little boy... or rather an adult with a Peter Pan complex, and that also leads in to the case itself.

          Again... had he just manned up and didn't flee in the first place? He would have been back on his merry way. Now? Even when this is all over... he can be denied entrance in to Sweden. In addition, its possible that he could be denied entrance in to other EU countries as well or even other countries because of his criminal conviction. (Heck he could even be added to US's no fly list too.)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Given his track record

        Unless its a pro-bono case.

        From Assange's perspective it appears to be more a pro-boner case.

        Yes, I'll be here all night, thank you.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Given his track record

          I would group Assange along side the other ape-like primates, in such a case what he requries is a Bonobo defense lawyer for all his monkeying around.

  4. Nei Takk

    Does Julian Assange™ actually have the right and the ability to block a Mutual Legal Assistance interrogation? Isn't this a matter between Sweden, the UK, and Ecuador? Unless we're assuming that Assange™ speaks for Ecuador (something he has several times assumed in the past, not always with good results). If Sweden and the UK agree to mutual legal assistance, and Ecuador agrees to let the police in to interrogate Assange™, what then? Is Assange™ supposed to hide in the closet or something? Is there another country's embassy inside the Ecuadorian embassy that he could take refuge in?

    And I'm not sure one should assume that Ecuador taking Assange™'s side on this is a given. When he's claimed to have spoken for Ecuador in the past he's gotten twice verbally smacked down by Correa (once by claiming that Biden bullied Correa, and once in the whole Fake-Ecuadorian-Papers-For-Snowden incident). He also got a dressing down for making offensive videos in the embassy during his embarrassing run for the Australian senate. Correa has portrayed Ecuador's intervention as a humanitarian gesture to keep the US from somehow getting ahold of Assange™, and not to interfere in the Swedish legal process. Are they going to abandon that concept in order to interfere in the Swedish legal process by blocking an interview that in no way shape or form could be perceived as working to protect him from the US? I doubt it, personally.

    And if the police are let into the embassy to conduct an interview... what's Assange™ going to do?

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      It's a good point. But they probably can't force him to be interviewed unless they arrest him. And I'm not sure what the legal implications of that are. The police can't enter an embassy without permission of the ambassador or government. But if they've been given permission to arrest someone, does the embassy still have the power to stop them walking out of the door with them? I'd have thought they don't. You can't be a bit pregnant, and in the same way I suspect you can't be a bit arrested.

      Although that's one for diplomats to settle, not me. And is probably another many hours of negotiation and timewasting they're going to have to sit through over this.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        It is important to note that the Swedish police cannot arrest anyone (Assange or not) in their embassy unless the ambassador gives them permission. However the ambassador can give the Swedish police permission to enter the embassy in order to ask Assange questions, although he cannot force Assange to answer them.

        Of course if the ambassador is fed up with Assange and allows the Swedish police to arrest and remove him, the moment Assange steps out the door the UK plods are going to be all over him like a rash. At that point the Swedish police will just have to go to the end of the queue; the UK courts get first dibs on a small account of breah of bail conditions.

        1. Ian Michael Gumby

          "At that point the Swedish police will just have to go to the end of the queue; the UK courts get first dibs on a small account of breah of bail conditions."

          I'm not so sure on that.

          It could be that he's extradited to Sweden. They charge him and hold a trial. At the end, (guilty or not, prison or not) He goes back to the UK for the jumping bail charge. Or he could be found guilty and then he's sent back to the UK to serve his time after Sweden. Then its off to Australia.

          (You can bet that this has been already in the works. ) It would then clean the hands of Sweden, the hands of the UK where back in Australia, the US can present them with an extradition warrant and the Aussies will comply because they already know that he's a prat.

          I think Julian has the right to be scared. He's not going to be executed. (That's already off the table because of Manning's sentence) He'll get jail time, and then there's a high possibility that he won't do too well in prison.

          1. LucreLout

            I think Julian has the right to be scared. He's not going to be executed.

            I'm not convinced about that. Sure, America won't put him out of our misery, but a sufficiently lengthy stay in general population may not see him leave incarceration HIV negative.

            1. Tom 13

              That's not executed. Dead yes. Executed no. Your language has some precision built into it. You should learn it.

            2. Ian Michael Gumby

              @LucreLout

              Reply Icon

              I think Julian has the right to be scared. He's not going to be executed.

              I'm not convinced about that. Sure, America won't put him out of our misery, but a sufficiently lengthy stay in general population may not see him leave incarceration HIV negative.

              -=-

              Well that's a different sort of lethal injection... and of course with some of the drugs not made in the US and other countries now refusing to sell the drugs used in lethal injections to the US... we're back to other methods.

              Sorry, but the point is that Assange will not face the death penalty at trial, which is a major stumbling block to extraditions. He may very well die in prison, any prison because of other inmates in gen pop.

              As to HIV... for all we know, he may already have it and its one of the complaints that the girls had and wanted him tested because he chose to have unwelcomed unprotected sex with them.

        2. This post has been deleted by its author

        3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          "Of course if the ambassador is fed up with Assange and allows the Swedish police to arrest and remove him"

          The ambassador doesn't have to allow the Swedish police to arrest him. All he has to do is to decide that Assange no longer qualifies for asylum. If the Swedish & Ecuadoran authorities are in agreement that the proposed interview is an acceptable procedure and he refuses to be interviewed then maybe that would provide the basis for terminating asylum.

        4. Alan Brown Silver badge

          uh yeah

          "the UK courts get first dibs on a small account of breah of bail conditions."

          The standard punishment for breach of bail conditions without violence is a small fine and a warning not to do it again.

          One of the local nasties thought so little of it that he'd breach his bail twice a day to go to the local betting shop - for 3 months. The police were thoroughly frustrated by it, because every time they arrested him, the judges gave the same "punishment" (and in that case the guy had an exclusion order because he'd been intimidating witnesses whilst facing ABH charges, so showing up was a threat of violence all in itself)

          A judge tossing St Julian Asshat in clink for a few months would face questions about acting far in excess of the norm, so whilst he's technically in trouble the reality is "not very much trouble"

          1. Ian Michael Gumby

            @Alan Brown Re: uh yeah

            I'll defer to your local knowledge on jumping bail.

            However...

            Assange fled to the Ecuadorian Embassy. Its theoretically possible that Assange's fine wouldn't be that small giving the UK government a chance to recoup some of its expenses? (I don't know... just asking)

            Also it could take some time for the courts to hear Assange's case. He's going to be put in to the clink until his case is heard... no chance of bail.

            While the jumping bail is the least of his worries, it also leads to an excuse for the UK government to forcibly return him to Australia. Under the law, he's usually told to leave the UK and he can go where he wants, however, he can also, at the discretion of the UK government, be sent back to his home country.

            Now which do you think is more likely to happen?

    2. Ben Tasker

      It's an interesting question, Assange has been given asylum to protect his physical person, not so that he can do and say whatever he feels like after all.

      Ecuador would probably have a harder time (diplomatically) refusing to allow a 'harmless' interview. On the other hand, that's assuming that no spin is applied to it at all.

      Asking to have the prosecutors papers at an earlier stage than it would normally occur sounds very much like a stalling tactic to me. If it's not a stalling tactic, it's pure arrogance in thinking that a country's legal system should willing jump through the hoops put in place by a suspect.

    3. Ian Michael Gumby

      Good points.

      Suppose they let the police in... that doesn't mean that the police can leave with Assange.

      But if Assange is his usual 'charming' self.... I wouldn't say that's out of the question.

      The issue is that even if they come, Assange could refuse to answer and could refuse to meet with them. So while the investigators are there. Its pretty much a wasted trip.

      1. Trainee grumpy old ****

        >The issue is that even if they come, Assange could refuse to answer and could refuse to meet with them. So while the investigators are there. Its pretty much a wasted trip.

        If he refused to meet them, then hopefully the prosecution could use that to make a case for waiving the statute of limitations? The fact that he makes a new demand everytime he gets a concession should be going into the building of a case....

        1. Ben Tasker

          >If he refused to meet them, then hopefully the prosecution could use that to make a case for waiving the statute of limitations? The fact that he makes a new demand everytime he gets a concession should be going into the building of a case

          It's quite possible it is - the prosecution have to show diligence, so it may well be that they go to a court, and use his 'evasiveness' to have the statute waived.

          Aside from perhaps arguing points of law, there's not much his defence could do about that if it's Julian that's been unreasonably causing the delay (and demanding changes in laid down process would be unreasonable I think).

  5. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

    ...which has seen Assange confined to the small Ecuadorian diplomatic premises in London for years

    I'd argue with the choice of language from El Reg here. He specifically has not been confined - he was out on bail, until he did a runner.

    It's one of those weaselly uses of the passive. "...has seen Assange confine himself to..." works. But I think I prefer "hide", or "skulk".

    ...which has seen Assange hide in the small Ecuadorian diplomatic premises in London for years.

    "lurk" has a nice ring to it too.

    He'd made noises about settling in Sweden before the allegations, so it's not like he can now claim Sweden is this terrifying banana republic, just lining up to export him to Gitmo.

    Sometimes I get the feeling that his paranoia is genuine, and that he may now believe that it's all a plot by the Swedish to send him to the US. But then he went from there to the UK, which is arguably an even worse place to avoid the long arm of the US. Given our extradition treaty with them is a fucking disgrace (thanks Tony!). Not that I'm a fan of the European Arrest Warrant system either, but at least that's reciprocal. So while he's described as paranoid by every journalist who's dealt with him, it would have to be at genuinely insane levels for Sweden to go from safe to terrifying, the instant rape allegations are raised against him, while the UK remained somehow safe.

    And the only other conclusion that leaves me with is fleeing from justice. Admittedly a paranoid innocent man may be just as likely to flee justice as a paranoid guilty one - but that's just tough shit. Everyone else has to hand themselves over to the police and defend themselves as best they can. So why not him?

    1. Ian Michael Gumby

      @Sparty...

      You wrote:

      Sometimes I get the feeling that his paranoia is genuine, and that he may now believe that it's all a plot by the Swedish to send him to the US. But then he went from there to the UK, which is arguably an even worse place to avoid the long arm of the US. Given our extradition treaty with them is a fucking disgrace (thanks Tony!).

      -=-

      Actually didn't McKinnon ?sp? successfully fight extradition?

      In terms of going from Sweden back to the UK, Assange didn't think that Sweden would file for an extradition over the 'he said/she said' issue of rape.

      In terms of his paranoia... is it paranoia when you actually have something to hide? Manning's Article 32 hearing alleged something that wasn't used in the actual court martial but could bite Assange in the ass.

      We won't know until Assage ends this Swedish nonsense.

      In terms of the UK, they have options and poor Julian won't be walking scott free from the embassy.

      He'll end up in Australia shortly.

    2. PNGuinn

      +1 for lurk

    3. Tom 13

      so it's not like he can now claim Sweden is this terrifying banana republic, just lining up to export him to Gitmo.

      Except, that's exactly what he's been claiming for the last four years.

      I don't think his paranoia is entirely unwarranted. I do expect that when he goes to Sweden they're going to convict a non-guilty man of a crime he didn't commit. But none of that has anything to do with whether or not he gets extradited to the US, which is where he continues to successfully redirect the story.

  6. JimmyPage Silver badge
    Stop

    Statute of limitations ...

    there's a phrase regarding US law which goes something like "the statute of limitations cannot be considered active if the offender absents themselves from the jurisdiction"

    In other words, nice try buster.

    Surely the Swedish system would be the same. I can't believe they have a fugitives charter ....

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Statute of limitations ...

      The Italian system doesn't work that way. In Italy you can have been convicted, but still get off on statue of limitations if you've managed to tie the appeal up for long enough that it doesn't go through and confirm the verdict of the lower court.

      That's a particularly bizarre system. I know nothing about how it works in Sweden. However he's not been charged. Whether they could just charge him anyway, and claim special circumstances, I've no idea. Laws are a funny old thing.

      1. AnotherBird

        Re: Statute of limitations ... (Italy)

        Interesting. In Italy it seems that in order for the prosecution to prove that they are diligent, the accused has to be sentenced. In other jurisdictions it is merely being charged.

    2. LucreLout

      Re: Statute of limitations ...

      Surely the Swedish system would be the same. I can't believe they have a fugitives charter ....

      I was wondering the same... surely it can't be that someone could visit Sweden, get all rapey with the natives, then return to their home country. Fast forward a few years and the charges vanish because they couldn't identify, find, or question you in a short timescale? That just seems wrong.

      Sorry Assange, but if you duck the questioning I will believe you did it to time out the charges because you were guilty. Nothing you say or do from that point will change my mind.

      1. Phil W

        Re: Statute of limitations ...

        Have an upvote purely for the use of the phrase "get all rapey with the natives"

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Statute of limitations ...

      That's what I was wondering ...

      I would imagine that the statute of limitations only applies where the legal system fails to realise you've done something wrong for some lengthy period of time and doesn't initiate proceedings against you until too late.

      Surely this doesn't apply when the the legal system DOES try to initiate proceedings against you right at the beginning - only to find that you've done a runner to escape justice.

      That's just common sense mind you, which often in this world doesn't reflect reality.

      1. Tom 13

        Re: Surely this doesn't apply

        Depends on the jurisdiction. In fact the whole mess around Clinton came about precisely because of Statue of limitations. Hearsay was printed in a national publication. Paula Jones decided she was defamed. She couldn't sue the publication because of oddities in the US law and the fact that they were quoting someone. She couldn't sue Clinton because the statue of limitations had run out on that part. So instead her lawyers attempted the sexual harassment charge because that one didn't have a statue of limitations.

        As a wise man once noted, "The problem with common sense is that it isn't."

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Statute of limitations ...

      "Surely the Swedish system would be the same. I can't believe they have a fugitives charter ...."

      Do they have provision for trial in absentia as a last resort?

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So basically Assange's lawyers are asking for favoritism?

    You know what?, I'm sick of this guy. He helped leak a bunch of combat reports that basically demonstrated that war is hard and kind of bureaucratic, diplomatic cables that mostly made U.S. diplomacy look good and everyone else in the Middle East/Central Asia look kind of crazy, and videos of a helicopter shooting up a bunch of Iraqis in a situation where the helicopter pilots didn't really know what they were looking at and had to make a judgement call to support U.S. forces under fire. Basically, nothing he leaked actually changed any policy, because none of the leaked material was actually important from a policy point of view.

    So, Snowden = Hero who I hope gets a pardon, Assange = Blowhard for whom I wouldn't shed a tear if he really did get extradited to the U.S. and tossed into Leavenworth.

    1. Ian Michael Gumby

      Re: So basically Assange's lawyers are asking for favoritism?

      Here's the thing...

      Were this only that Assange published the leaked documents... well, he'd have some protection under the constitution.

      But its been alleged in Manning's Article 32 hearing that Assange assisted with the theft. If that's the case. He's looking at 10-15 in a serious prison and not some club fed.

      Snowden? That's a whole nother kettle of fish. I'd suggest you choose better heroes.

      1. ratfox

        Re: So basically Assange's lawyers are asking for favoritism?

        I'm not sure whether Assange really "assisted" Manning or merely offered a service for publishing leaks; but one way or another, I don't feel that these actions are ethically wrong. Suppose he had been an actual professional spy paid by Australia to spy on the US. The US would try to catch him and put him in jail, but spying is a game played between countries in which ethics do not enter; he would just be doing his job. The fact that he was working to inform the public rather than his country only makes it the more ethical from my viewpoint.

        I actually find skipping bail more reprehensible, and I have no sympathy for him if the UK ever get him. And as a person, Assange does seem like a dick.

        1. Ian Michael Gumby

          @ratfox Re: So basically Assange's lawyers are asking for favoritism?

          You'd have to go back over the evidence in Manning's Article 32 hearing.

          Again if all Assange did was publish the docs... he's have the 1971 Ellsberg decision where SCOTUS protects the press.

          But the allegation is that he helped with the break in. That's a whole different kettle of fish and they seem to have some evidence to that effect. I don't know and I'm not going to say that if what was alleged in the Article32 hearing is true... Assange is in a world of hurt unless he can hide for the next 25 years.

        2. LucreLout

          Re: So basically Assange's lawyers are asking for favoritism?

          I don't feel that these actions are ethically wrong

          Which is one of the reasons for the rule of law. Each of us has our own opinions on behaviour we consider ethical or unethical, and you'll never achieve consensus. Assange will be judged whether his actions or inactions broke the law, not someones personal code of ethics.

          1. ratfox

            Re: So basically Assange's lawyers are asking for favoritism?

            Which is one of the reasons for the rule of law

            Sure. Yet even the law can be unclear, considering that whistleblower protection laws exist and sometimes apply, sometimes not. Quoting from the Wikipedia™ article about whistleblowers:

            "Whistleblowing in the U.S. is affected by a complex patchwork of contradictory laws."

            I wish it was possible to know whether someone's actions are legal or not, but very often, the answer costs a lot of money and time spent in front of a judge.

            Spying is also particular in the fact that its illegality depends on the place. Spying in the US is illegal in the US. Spying on the US might be illegal in the UK. Spying on the US is probably not illegal in Iceland. In general, people don't get extradited to another country for acts that are not a crime in the country where they are (blasphemy laws come to mind).

            So you can say that Assange will be judged according to the rule of law (assuming he is); but you cannot tell me that this truly determines whether what he did was wrong.

      2. phil dude
        IT Angle

        Re: So basically Assange's lawyers are asking for favoritism?

        True heroes are often not decided until after the eulogy...

        The balance of probabilities would suggest they all know something we don't. That of course doesn't stop media articles from saying what they want..

        My "spidey sense" would have JA checking his food for glass, his glass for cyanide, and a wary fear of strangers of either gender...

        P.

  8. WalterAlter
    Pint

    Kill the Pig, Bash Her In

    Beastly man, eat his tongue, hoist him high upon the Catherine Wheel, let the crows have his eyes, feed his bones to the Kings' mastiff, bury his memory in the Cesspit of Infamy and pat ourselves on the back for a dirty job done dirt cheap.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Extradite the scumbag

    He's no better than any other person and he should be sent packing to be prosecuted like any other perp. He's certainly not sleeping on the couch at the embassy because he's innocent.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So in 4 years, has the Ecuadorian embassy not had a fire drill/alarm forcing everyone out of the building into the arms of the waiting coppers? Perhaps they have a large back garden they retreat to, I dunno. Still, I'm surprised no-one's thought of an inventive way to clear everyone out of the building for a while, yet. Does anyone else smell gas? (no fart jokes please). :)

  11. Killing Time

    Four years...four years...and counting....

    I have had highs,lows,travelled, partied, a fair balance of excitement and the mundane...hell I have even had a marriage in past years which lasted less time than that.

    I like to think I have lived in that time whereas St Julian has sulked around the same building....

    No matter what happens with the Swedish investigation, it's still going to end the same way. He skipped bail in the UK and will have to answer to the UK courts.

    Given this evidence, I am supposed to believe that these are the actions of a rational man whose opinion and intellect should lead me to believe in his personal cause and beliefs.

    Nope, I will continue living my life until the inevitable day when he leaves and faces the music. I suspect however that by that time I will have completely given up caring.

    I am ninety percent there already..

    1. Ian Michael Gumby

      @Killing Time...

      So... I have to ask...

      I remember reading somewhere that they were crediting Manning/Assange for leaking material that set off Arab Spring. (Its actually on Manning's wikipedia page...)

      So I have to ask... are we safer today post Arab Spring?

      That was more rhetorical.... No we are not.

      This is why bringing Assange to justice is important. Not just because he abuses women, but because he's a real threat.

      1. Killing Time

        Re: @Killing Time...

        I agree he needs to face justice, however I don't believe he is a threat. Due to his theatrics his credibility is completely blown. His self promoted relevance has long faded.

        Ninety five percent there.......

        1. Ian Michael Gumby

          Re: @Killing Time...

          So you're right, Assange is no longer a threat because he's been outed as a prat.

          But he's a threat because of Assange/Manning we have Snowden who isn't a whistleblower either.

          And then if you don't punish Assange or Snowden... you'll have to worry about the next idiot who thinks its a good idea to steal and spill the beans even if no illegal activity has occurred.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The money? Seriously?

    The Poms are the ones who "spent" (yeah, let's see the spreadsheets, boys?) the ridiculous sum of money lining their own p.... the "streets outside the embassy". A$$HAT or not, it's their fault and nothing to do with him. F*&** them.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: The money? Seriously?

      I like living in a country where our police make an effort to apprehend alleged rapists. I think that's a valuable social good.

      I also believe in fair trials. I've done my jury service, and found someone not guilty because I wasn't sure. I believe the Swedish system is probably as good as any.

      I admit, the costs lead me to suspect our police can't count though...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The money? Seriously?

      To put this in slightly less inflammatory tones:

      The police allocate their own resources. A court case has established, for example, that the costs of policing town centres on the days of football matches cannot be billed to the football clubs. In the same way, the cost of policing the area outside the Ecuadorian embassy shouldn't be passed on to the embassy or its resident.

      I despise the man, and his attempts to avoid justice. But the above still holds.

  13. aberglas

    Life in an embasy to avoid a short jail term in Sweden

    Get real. If this was really about the dubious rape charges then Assange would be much better off just facing the music in Sweden.

    The statute of limitations is just an excuse. Ny was pressured into the meeting by the Swedish court and UK govt.

    Ny does not want to go because once the meeting happens she needs to either put up or shut up. She cannot shut up after all this time regardless of the evidence, so she has to prosecute. But if, as it looks like, the evidence is very dubious, the it could be Ny that ends up being blamed for the fiasco.

    Meanwhile, Assange is on a plane to the USA...

    1. AnotherBird
      FAIL

      Re: Life in an embasy to avoid a short jail term in Sweden

      Strange was allowing his lawyers to argue on what he believed the accusations were instead of what was in the arrest warrant. Just maybe allowing his lawyers to argue against the actual accusation then there could be some consideration on the validity of the accusations.

      It was known long ago when the case was being argued through the courts that there are statute of limitations on sexual assault in Sweden. Ng is being pressured into meeting with Assange because the statute of limitations. The expiration of the limitation on bring legal proceedings will conclude the case.

      At issue for the prosecution is having Assange in a Swedish court to defend himself against the allegations. However, before that is to get Assange's version of the events without him being able to "skip out of the country when things get to hot."

      Evidence is what Assange has not produced to support his fear that Sweden will violate the rights of the accusers, Assange, and international law.

      With the low rate of conviction on sexual assault, Assange would statistically be free today.

      1. Tom 13

        Re: With the low rate of conviction on sexual assault

        If it were a normal sex assault case, yes. But it isn't normal. This is about TWO high profile feminazis in Sweden taking down a Designate Male Predator.

        He's not wrong to fear conviction in Sweden. He is wrong to blame the whole thing on the US. But hey, it worked the first time. And the second. So why not stick with a proven plan?

        1. AnotherBird

          Re: With the low rate of conviction on sexual assault - re: normal sexual assault case

          The problem is not addressing the accusations and these constant shifting arguments. What has been suggested make it less likely the US is involved, which what is less than 0.

          Julian Assange needs to stop his demands and fully cooperate. It has never worked. None of his strategies have worked other than delaying the process. It is unknown the details about Swedish laws, but his tactics have only worked to his detriment.

  14. Grunchy Silver badge

    A real man stands up to the system, says what's right and what's wrong, despite the consequences.

    But everybody hates Assange because he's a whiney little suck-hole.

  15. localzuk Silver badge

    Not good

    I have supported his quest for proper treatment, but this has no basis or need.

    Why does he need access to these files before someone comes and talks to him? They wouldn't under our law in the UK either - you get access to the documents at the "you've been charged" stage before court dates.

    This isn't a good move and he has lost my support with it.

  16. Bernard M. Orwell

    Oh ffs, Julian!

    I've said it before and I'll say it again; your actions, Julian, do not do the cause any good. Information openness and government transparency is one thing, but what you are doing is just bollocks.

    Man up and get this over with.

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