back to article Hated biz smart meter rollout: UK.gov sticks chin out, shuts eyes

The government has opened a consultation on its proposals not to extend the deadline for businesses to opt out of the hated smart meter programme – despite hitting major delays with the programme itself. The government plans to force two million "non-domestic" premises to install smart meters by 2020. These include a variety …

  1. zebthecat

    I don't get it at all.

    What on earth are these smart meters meant to achieve?

    Unless they have some magic powers to reduce electricity if course. Do they contain some secret electical fairy dust?

    1. sorry, what?
      FAIL

      Re: I don't get it at all.

      Not fairy dust but rather sawdust instead of brains and straw instead of security. I don't want a "smart" meter anywhere near my property. I don't fancy having some teenage hacker turning off my supply by hijacking the comms.

    2. GreggS

      Re: I don't get it at all.

      They are meant to maximise the supply companies profits by them finally being able to bill their customers correctly (although that is debateable). Increase Distribution companies profits by them being able to charge for access and the connection. The benefit to the customer is the smallest part of the pie and even that is debateable on a long term outlook when the initial "wow, look what happens when i switch this off" effect has got so boring that they stop turning stuff off just to see what happens - they do after all have to keep watching TV, boiling that kettle and whacking their thermostat up to full in the winter.

    3. Electron Shepherd

      Re: I don't get it at all.

      The official reason is that if you know how much electricity, gas etc. you are using, in real time, you will use less, and that since the utility company won't have to send someone out to read the meter, their costs are lower, and those cost reductions will be passed on to the consumer. *

      The reality, I suspect, is to introduce the capability for demand- and time-based pricing, which is currently impossible for a read-it-once-every-three-months "old" meter.

      *No, I don't believe that one, either.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Electron Shepherd Re: I don't get it at all.

        If only they could calculate demand at the supply end, like water pressure dropping, so they know they have to pump more in to the system to meet real-time demand. Like the ad-breaks in Corrie, where a half-hour old reading is useless...

        I'm pretty sure gas is a fluid. Not so sure how a meter works ;-)

        1. Alan Brown Silver badge

          Re: @Electron Shepherd I don't get it at all.

          "If only they could calculate demand at the supply end"

          They already do - and even if meters instantly updated that someone's switched a kettle on, the message will get to the supply side at least 5 seconds AFTER the generators already noticed it and cranked up supply (or let the mains frequency dip a little)

          Short of being telepathic, "smartmeters" will have no effect on predicting demand and the enercos really aren't that keen on them.

          If smartmeters were worthwhile then the powercos would be installing them for free

          The _only_ way to maintain energy supplies and reduce CO2 is to go "more nuclear" - and once you have nuke technology which can cope with load peaks (LFTRs), the extra costs of running Solar PV/Wind, etc etc will simply serve to drive costs up.

          Current "renewable" energy supplies are heavily subsided - both directly and via "must connect" laws which force grid operators to hook them up whilst not allowing them to charge for the operation of "backing generation" (mostly being inefficient open cycle gas plants)

          Don't forget that in order to reduce carbon output, we have to go "more electric" - gas heating ends up deprecated and electric cars will increase demand too. Wind/Solar will _never_ produce enough to come close to satisfying current demands, let alone the spectre of requirements 4-8 times higher than they are now.

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge

            Re: @Electron Shepherd I don't get it at all.

            In addition, the advanced meters which send your usage every 30 minutes that that the article mentions as a way of getting around having a smart meter is no good for following demand either, they're too slow.

            What else can advanced meters do apart from fire the meter reader and allow electric companies to come up with even more confusing tariffs? Because it seems this is what it's mostly about.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: I don't get it at all.

        "read-it-once-every-year (if we can be arsed) "old" meter."

        FTFY

    4. Paul Shirley

      Re: I don't get it at all.

      "What on earth are these smart meters meant to achieve?"

      They're meant to allow gas suppliers to sack all their meter readers, low paid workers so my small share of the wage reduction will never cover the cost of installing the meters. The companies involved will turn a profit though, so that's alright with politicians sucking at the corporate teat.

      ...and nothing I've seen to date convinces me they will achieve any useful reduction in energy use. I'll vote for keeping a few more folk employed.

      1. Elmer Phud

        Re: I don't get it at all.

        "They're meant to allow gas suppliers to sack all their meter readers,"

        Do any of the companies have thier own anymore?

        Round here it seems to be some sort of intermediary outfit - with little time to spare.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I don't get it at all.

        "The companies involved will turn a profit though, so that's alright with politicians sucking at the corporate teat."

        FFS, every time "smart meters" get a mention on the Reg, ill-informed commentards come rushing to bleat about the fat cats installing smart meters to make more money. Could you at least check your facts with a Google search or two before spouting rubbish?

        The UK smart meter programme is enshrined in UK law by the last Labour government (Energy Act 2008), rubber stamped by the current government (Energy Act 2011), and is in response to Westminster's interpretation of the EU Directives 2009/72/EC and 2009/73/EC. The views and opinions of energy suppliers have little or no bearing on this, which is ultimately a product of the "green" thinking of the EU, and wishful thinking about the energy savings DECC hoped would come about.

        Maybe the energy suppliers will get rich anyway? Not very likely, because the costs of avoiding manual meter reading are small - about ten quid a year, and the case for sacking the meter reader by installing £400 of complex, unproven trickery doesn't really stack up unless a forty year cash payback appeals. And if that does, then form an orderly queue because you can be the asset owner, by becoming a Meter Asset Provider. It is most unlikely that smart meters will be owned by your energy supplier, more likely to be owned by the banks, who will then charge the supplier handsomely for the privilege of using the meter, and it will then get passed through to you. In just the same way as OFGEM's disastrous and incompetent Offshore Transmission Operator rules, in which the banks made more money from renting out wires than the windfarm owners made from the blasted windmills.

    5. A Known Coward

      Re: I don't get it at all.

      Their official purpose is to allow the government to turn off your power remotely, per household, for short periods in order to prevent demand exceeding supply. The rest of the stated reasons for their existence are just the 'sugar' which is meant to help the medicine go down.

      Welcome to the future of unpredictable renewable energy supplies. Free stock tip - invest in candle manufacturing firms.

    6. nematoad
      Happy

      Re: I don't get it at all.

      I didn't get it either. Not because I was given a choice, I wasn't, but because of the terrible mobile coverage where I live meant that they couldn't foist one of those things on me.

      Living in a not-spot is usually a real pain, but not in this case.

    7. Someone Else Silver badge
      Devil

      @ zebthecat -- Re: I don't get it at all.

      The are meant to allow the power companies to cut you off at their whim, without any advance warning, for any reason they desire, without any oversight (oh, yes, and without having to send a bod to actually do the deed). Reasons currently being mulled for said treatment include (but are by no means limited to):

      • Failure to pay your bill
      • Brownout control (by rotating cutoffs every so often, it relieves the Power Company from having to build out their infrastructure to properly meet demands).
      • Penalizing you for using "too much electricity/gas" (where the limit is arbitrary, capricious, and of course, unpublished; see previous item)
      • Because you're a terrierist, pedo, or just some loudmouth who shows up at council meetings and makes the Powers That Be™ uncomfortable
      • Because you oppose the Smart Meter™ program
      • Because you live in a district that didn't vote for the Tories (or, on my side of the pond, Republicans)

      Any questions?

      1. veti Silver badge

        Re: @ zebthecat -- I don't get it at all.

        So much paranoia. So little information.

        Hackers turning off your power? Yeah well, all I can tell you is that with a worldwide installed base of almost half a billion of the things so far (reference), this doesn't seem to have happened yet. Maybe their security is better than you give it credit for.

        Utilities turning off your power at whim? There are strict laws about the steps they have to go through before they're allowed to do that, and those steps are the same no matter what kind of meter you have. If they can bypass those with a smart meter, they could have done the same with the old kind. The big difference is that, by making the switchoff process simpler, it's easier for the utilities to follow an (auditably) consistent process.

        "Keeping a few more folk employed"? That's pure Luddite logic. People who are employed doing a job that doesn't need to be done are effectively on corporate welfare, with the added requirement that they have to waste time (and petrol) still doing this non-work.

      2. Chris Parsons

        Terrierist

        Is that something to do with hunting?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Terrierist

          I've had smartmeters here in my home in Europe for a few years, (that haven't yet been used to modulate my load, but I guess they could be). What did happen is that one side of my (complicated) house supplied by major energy supplier #1 in country was switched by me for a better tariff to minor energy supplier #2.

          Everything signed up OK, bills calculated by remote reading, paid by Direct-Debit. After a year, the van from minor energy supplier #2 arrived to cut-off its side of the house. Reason, major #1 hadn't established a mechanism for reading a smart-meter then passing these electronic numbers on to anyone else, so they just binned them. My #2 supplier didn't notice for a year, then gave me 3 minutes to pay a whacking bill!

          it was annoying at the time.

          since then one of my many smartmeters has gone faulty (no display) if I call major energy supplier #1 out for a fault incident - if they decide it's my fault I have to pay €300 for a new smartmeter, in fact I think I have to pay them to come-out - then they might refund me if they can't weasel out of it, somehow.

          I think the best news recently has been this http://www.symtechsolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Remote-Micro-Home-500-Watt.jpg OFF GRID MICRO HOME deep discharge Li-Ion, be your own utility and use PV at night!, other solutions are available..

  2. Primus Secundus Tertius

    Let Downing Street lead

    I propose that the first "smart" meters be installed in Downing Street, numbers 10 and 11.

    If that does not make the occupants smart (i.e. flinch), nothing will.

    1. GreggS

      Re: Let Downing Street lead

      You have to have smart consumers to have smart meters so i think you've hit on a problem right there.

    2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Let Downing Street lead

      That won't work.

      The Residences of the PM and Chancellor are provided by the State as part of their job. I'd even doubt that there are even leccy and Gas meters there to read/convert.

      Nice idea though. You could get them on Millibands place because all that Hot Air has to come from somewhere....

      1. Someone Else Silver badge
        Coat

        @ Steve Davies 3 -- Re: Let Downing Street lead

        Steve, you're missing the point. By putting a SmartMeter on their residences, they can helpfully participate in the energy consumption reduction necessitated by their policies (or as driven by some script kiddie sitting in his Mum's basement...)

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Business as usual

    More of the same, such as rolling out DAB instead of DAB+ even though technically inferior and DAB receivers use more power than analoge FM.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Big Brother

      Re: Business as usual

      and why do they do that - use more power - surely it is not byond the wit of engineering to make them more frugal?

      1. Vic

        Re: Business as usual

        and why do they do that - use more power - surely it is not byond the wit of engineering to make them more frugal?

        Digital radio involves a fair bit of number-crunching. That uses power.

        And that's on top of the tuner, demodulator, and audio output stages that made up the FM radio - you still need all those.

        Vic.

  4. GreggS

    A waste of money

    The money would be far better spent cutting the subsidies to renewal by making their entry into the market less costly. This could involve research into more efficient solar panels, wind farms that can actually be ran when it's windy and using the subsidies for them to actually build the things in the first place (rather than just for them to produce) amongst other things.

    What the government should be doing is looking at why is it that renewable generators only tend to produce when it befits them the most, i.e. when the subsidies and prices we are paying are at the highest (usually times of highest demand). If they were forced to produce at low peak times, we could easily replace a coal or gas fired power station or two with the renewables we currently have connected to the grid. It makes me mad that new technologies such as tidal (and even the newly proposed nuclear power station) say it's not in their best interest to build their plants unless they get a huge government subsidy for the electric they produce (in the case of said tidal and nuclear up to three times the going rate).Subsidise the building to encourage new ones, not the cost of producing, if it's inefficient, that's their problem - use the billions being wasted on smart meters to fund research into making production, transmission and distribution more efficient!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A waste of money

      "why is it that renewable generators only tend to produce when it befits them the most, i.e. when the subsidies and prices we are paying are at the highest (usually times of highest demand)"

      Utter, utter drivel. The subsidies to renewables are volume based and not time-related, and the owners invariably operate to maximise power output, added to which the marginal cost of renewable power is close to zero, so once built there's no logic in not running even if the wholesale price component is low.

      As for producing at peak demand, that is invariably after dark in winter. So no solar output, and (because the coldest weather is associated with high pressure and calm conditions) very weak wind power output. This is the fundamental problem with renewables - not very reliable, and not available when you need them. You could fix it with energy storage, but you then build in vast additional capital costs over and above the economically challenged renewable plant.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: A waste of money

          They don't get"an uplift", the subsidy comes in the firm of ROCs and LECs that they then sell to suppliers who are obliged to buy them. In future new plant will get payments directly over the wholesale price but this will completely remove any relationship with the wholesale price because these new subsidies (CFDs) will mean they get paid the same whenever they produce power.

          Now, if I'm having to explain basic stuff like this to you then it follows that you don't have a clue about the UK energy markets, and that whilst you're happy to share your valued opinions, you can't be bothered to do the briefest on line research that could have informed your views.

          [old git mode]

          I can remember when the Red commentards were both opinionated AND well informed.

          [/old git mode]

          1. Killing Time

            Re: A waste of money

            @Ledswinger

            Got to agree with your assessment here, the nonsense which is continually being recycled on this subject along with the power market debate is laughable.

            I am no fan of this particular metering 'initiative' however I will go out on a limb and state categorically that the prospect of remote domestic supply isolation by this project and technology whether 'smart' or 'advanced' is a big fat zero.

            The idea is complete bollocks.

            There is regulation and legislation in place which protects the consumer from being cut off for whatever reason, and rightly so.

            Just a small amount of research would separate the 'spin', rhetoric and facts in this matter. At least that would make a valid contribution.

      2. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: A waste of money

        "You could fix it with energy storage, but you then build in vast additional capital costs over and above the economically challenged renewable plant."

        You'd also need to build to build more of the renewable plant - all current storage technology results in a minimum of 30% energy loss over the cycle.

        Hopefully in 20 years we'll look back and shake our heads about how silly people were to put their faith in windmills for long-term reliable power supplies.

    2. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: A waste of money

      "we could easily replace a coal or gas fired power station or two with the renewables we currently have connected to the grid. "

      That's just the problem. We could replace _a_ power station (maybe 2), but you still need to have enough

      The entire UK wind output peaked at 3/4 of the nuclear fleet average output late last year for a few days. Under normal circumstances the average is less than 1/3 and at other periods during the year output dropped to nearly zero.

      Wind and solar combined could peak at about twice the current nuclear output.

      That might sound good, but the UK nuclear fleet produces only a small fraction of total UK power demand and that's _peak_ output for renewables, not average.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Meh

      Re: A waste of money

      while the producers keep waiting for Fusion Power - the disbutors keep waiting for ambient temperature superconductors; always 30 years away both of them but if the Gov based their plans on it, it would explain a lot

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Excluding the obvious WTF is the point of the darn thing, how are these supposed to talk back?

    Our meter backs on to another office on another floor.

    Is a smart meter in scope for Cyber Essentials ;)

    1. Zippy's Sausage Factory
      Trollface

      Last I heard it was 2G. O2 made some sort of commitment to keep their 2G network going, just for smart meters, I believe.

      Because that's totally secure and unhackable, amirite?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        USA is actually committed to switching off 2G in 2017 for security reasons

        (but then Boston chose Wi-Fi for their Smart-Grid comms... I bet they used WEP, I daredn't look it up, but it did take around a week before they were pwned)

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    No problem....

    ...we'll just bill them for the thousands of servers we need to "power down".

  7. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge

    "The report by the Energy and Climate Change Committee said it does "not believe" plans to install 53 million devices in homes and businesses by 2020 will be achieved."

    Did this august body indicate why they think this might not be achieved? Consumer resistance coupled with the knowledge these things are of fuck all use, perhaps?

    No, no. Can't be that. Must be that we "just don't get it" yet.

    1. Mark 85

      Well there's that. And as long as they keep holding meetings on it, no schedule will actually be forthcoming or implemented. For those not liking this idea, just suggest to the appropriate people that they have more meetings to discuss things....

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Advanced meters are defined as being able to provide half-hourly electricity or hourly gas data that can be remotely CUT OFF by a supplier." FTFY

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Time to buy share in a UPS manufacturer me thinks.

      And its not just geeks running servers, Joe Public wants his set top box powered 24/7 too.

  9. chris 17 Silver badge

    does anyone actually know anyone that thinks smart meters are a good idea?

    As has already been mentioned once the novelty has worn off it won't stop people carrying on with their lives, watching tv, boiling the kettle, turning the tumble dryer on or whacking the thermostat up. It won't stop my other half leaving the sky box on when turning the tv off or leaving the tv on when turning the sky box off, won't stop the bathroom lights being left on all day and all night unless i switch them off or turning the oven on 2 hours before its needed. i need smart devices and appliances that can remind people to turn them off if not in use or better still just turn themselves off , not smart meters

  10. Alan Sharkey

    Can I refuse to have one?

    I run lots of PCs and NAS devices at home (yes, I am a bit of a geek at heart) and I don't really want them turned off by some spotty Herbert deciding I don't need any leccy for a while.

    1. GreggS

      Yes you can refuse to have one fitted, supposedly with no detriment to you or your bill. That doesn't mean that they won't fit another device to be able to remotely cut you off though, which aren't covered by the current legislation and so could probably do it without your agreement - not that they would do something like that of course!

    2. ilmari

      I don't think any other country equated smart meters with remote control, everyone else is doing "advanced meter".

      One directive I don't see mentioned on thereg though, is the one requiring damages and refunds for power outages. It has caused a building boom in Sweden and Finland atleast, with grid operators hurrying to bury electric cables underground so they don't need to pay out so much compensation for outages during storms.

  11. x 7

    Simple solution

    buy a GSM jammer

  12. Chris G

    Privacy

    Here is an interesting view of smart meters: http://www.takebackyourpower.net/news/2014/11/06/smart-meter-privacy-invasions-are-unjustifiable-in-a-democratic-society/

    In Holland the government abandoned a directive to install smart meters after deciding they would contravene article 8 of the ECHR by intruding too much on the privacy of the family in the home.

    1. JimWin

      Re: Privacy

      Excellent reference that encapsulates the issues thoroughly AFAICS. So if the Dutch can do this, so can we. Perhaps contact with your MP might be in order.

  13. RyszrdG

    Mendacity squared

    Whether or not they are any more effective in reducing your own consumtion than say an Owl monitor, my main complaint is that it is the poor bloody consumer directly paying for the suppliers gain. No justice in that!

  14. Stuart Grout

    Tin foil?

    So if I get one of these foisted on my home, will tin foil silence it or will it cut me off it it can't report back to base?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Tin foil?

      this might be illegal to do, and the other people reportedly who have already kitted out their cupboard under the stairs as a RF-proof anechoic chamber might also be doing illegal things....

  15. Hubert Thrunge Jr.
    Mushroom

    one point missed

    My main concern in all of this boils down to one single word.

    CRAPITA

    They will turn this whole debacle into a fuckup of thermonuclear proportion.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    Of Course

    If script kiddies can shut these things off surely the more sophisticated can "amend" the out put figures to be a bit lower than they should be? ... just saying you know

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