back to article Timeout, Time Lords: ICANN says there is only one kind of doctor

Domain-name overseer ICANN has decided that only one kind of doctor may be allowed online – and that is a medical doctor. In a decision made late last month but challenged on Friday by one of the companies vying for the rights to run the internet registry .doctor, ICANN will insist that all dot-doctor domains be verified as …

  1. The Man Who Fell To Earth Silver badge
    Boffin

    "legitimate medical practitioners"

    What does that mean & who decides what a "legitimate medical practitioner" is?

    You can bet that quacks pushing things like homeopathy and all sorts of alternative medicine snake oil will get a .doctor domain.

    1. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Re: "legitimate medical practitioners"

      In the UK the GMC decides who is a legitimate medical practitioner. There's a list on their website (sort of).

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: "legitimate medical practitioners"

        But what about legitimate supervillians (many of whom hold advanced degrees) ?

        1. Simon Harris
          Mushroom

          Re: "legitimate medical practitioners"

          It seems

          No.doctor

          Is acceptable if you read the book, but not if you watch the movie.

          It wouldn't be James Bond without a big explosion ------>

        2. Ken 16 Silver badge
          Devil

          Re: "legitimate medical practitioners"

          They didn't go to Evil School for 7 years to be called 'Mister'

        3. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
          Happy

          Re: "legitimate medical practitioners"

          But what about legitimate supervillians (many of whom hold advanced degrees) ?

          The super-villain problem is easily solved. They don't want the .doctor name anyway, since Dr is usually the first part of their name. What they need is the new gTLD .evil...

          There admittedly might be a touch of confusion between the two domains: DrNo.evil and DoNo.evil (as owned by Google), but I'm sure it would all come out in the wash...

          The next question is a domain for superheroes. I was thinking .man. Hence you'd have super.man, ice.man, spider.man, bat.man. And robin too...

          Also mannersmaketh.man and the less pleasant superhero herpes.man.

          1. Swarthy

            Re: "legitimate medical practitioners"

            Don't forget wonderwo.man.

      2. Sarah Balfour

        Re: "legitimate medical practitioners"

        All depends if they work for the NHS or not, if they do they're quacks, whose sole concern is not your health, but the profits of their Big Pharma overlords.

        1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Re: "legitimate medical practitioners"

          You forgot the joke icon Sarah

          1. Jedit Silver badge
            Joke

            "You forgot the joke icon Sarah"

            I thought she was talking about the supervillains.

  2. phil dude
    WTF?

    cash for names...

    The problems with this "cash for names" orgy, is that the public gets the impression it actually provides some sort of "expectation of competence".

    Clinicians (those that see patients) are of a very wide disposition and competence (as with all disciplines).

    I would bet that the ones that can afford .doctor will be the ones with the highest income...

    Oh and here in the US, will that include the chiropractors being "upgraded"?

    Sufficiently frightening group I would not want anywhere near "real" medicine...

    P.

    1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: cash for names...

      Clinicians (those that see patients) are of a very wide disposition and competence (as with all disciplines).

      And they're rarely researchers (since most people don't have time for both serious research and significant clinical practice). Since the word "doctor" etymologically and traditionally means "scholar", many clinicians - fine body-mechanics though they may be - have less claim to it than the holders of Ph.D.'s do.

      After all, that's why we have organizations like Cochrane that coordinate panels of reviewers who sift through reams of medical research to distill out recommendations for evidence-based medical practice. Clinicians typically don't even have time to follow more than a tiny portion of research, unless they operate in a very narrow specialty.

      Medical "doctors" only have that title because a bunch of sawbones in the UK wanted to dress up their rather disreputable profession, back in the days before antisepsis and anesthesia and the germ theory of disease.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    is .twat reserved for ICANN?

    or is it .another-avoidable-debacle?

  4. Francis Vaughan

    Sadly the wrong answer.

    The domain will almost certainly become debased, as charlatans of every ilk sneak past the implementation. As soon as the chiropractors weasel past (and they will) the domain will become a cesspit, as all the other pile in. It would be better to leave it totally open from the outset, and even encourage the crystal twirlers and purveyors of quack cancer cures to infest the domain. This would achieve the desired effect much better. Anyone registered with a .doctor URL would be thus instantly known as a fraud.

    Those with the need to be seen as a "doctor" are exactly those that are not.

    (I have a PhD - thus I have a doctorate, can be addressed as "doctor", but I am emphatically not a Doctor.)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sadly the wrong answer.

      Chiropractors don't have an M.D, they are "D.C." Limiting it to those who hold an M.D. should be pretty simple, the only hole for the charlatans to sneak past will be offshore diploma mills that will grant you an M.D. without courses that are worthy of the title (or even for payment of a fee and no coursework at all)

      If the domain was limited to a single country you'd deal with that the same way you deal with someone practicing medicine without a license. But just because the US and UK may have high standards for an M.D., doesn't mean all countries in the world will, so guys like 30 Rock's Dr. Spaceman will be able to get spaceman.doctor I guess!

      1. WatAWorld

        Re: Sadly the wrong answer.

        Why not make it .MedDoc if you want to restrict it to medical doctors?

        Imagine all the people from other languages looking for engineering PhD or dentists and not finding them.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Sadly the wrong answer. - is also the wrong answer!

        My wife is a medical doctor with ten years of medical training and three degrees, including a first-class honors BSc in genetics she achieved in just 12 months. But she has no MD... because she's in the UK which does not award MDs except to people who have finished a doctorate in medicine: i.e. an extra 3 years on top of what you need to become a mere "doctor". In the UK MDs are the kind of people that hold professorial chairs in medicine - maybe 1% of the medical doctors?

        So straight away using MD as a criterion falls away. Which rather destroys any distinctive criteria at all?

      3. Raedwald Bretwalda

        Re: Sadly the wrong answer.

        "Chiropractors don't have an M.D, they are "D.C."

        Maybe where you live (the US?), but perhaps not true everywhere. If they apply the rule has "having an MD awarded anywhere in the world", it will be just a matter of time (if not the case already) that you can buy a "MD certificate" on-line from a dodgy jurisdiction.

        The quacks might even justify this to themselves as a noble work around of rules set up by the evil Big Pharma establishment to keep them out.

      4. SolidSquid

        Re: Sadly the wrong answer.

        In which case you limit it to people with an M.D. from an accredited school. At that point it's pretty much following the same rules everything else will

        edit: Although admittedly this runs afoul of the issue someone else raised, that not all doctors (including medical ones) have an M.D.

        1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

          Re: Sadly the wrong answer.

          Well they're going to come across the same problem with dot.bank.

          As I understand it, one of the potential registrars is going to set up some sort of system where you have to be registered as a bank with a national regulartory authority. And I guess a similar system can be built up for dot.doctor.

          However, once you do that, you're basically no longer dealing with a global system. So in this particular case, it might then be better off to go through the national TLDs. A dot.doctor.uk would make a lot more sense - as it can then be managed within the country's laws, and governments could even make it an offence to register a domain on there without the appropriate qualifications. Instead of, or as well as, administering the local register, by whatever local rules apply.

          At least most of the useless gTLD aren't actively going to do any harm. Bank, Doctor etc., could end up going horribly wrong.

          I'm just off to pay my $10 to register icann.sucks, or failing that my $150,000 to be registrar of .fuckingupthenamespace...

    2. WatAWorld

      Re: Sadly the wrong answer.

      You don't unregistered physicians to have quacks when you have the Doctor Oz's of this world.

    3. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: Sadly the wrong answer.

      I have a PhD - thus I have a doctorate, can be addressed as "doctor", but I am emphatically not a Doctor.

      You have a PhD but you're not a scholar?

      The medical profession coopted "doctor" relatively recently. There's no need to roll over and let them take it.

  5. greenwoodma

    In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

    This really makes no sense. At least in the UK most medical doctors don't actually hold a doctorate and so anyone with a PhD is more entitled to call themselves doctor (as I, with a PhD, constantly remind my wife who is a medical doctor but only has a Bachelor of Surgery and Medicine). Also most surgeons drop the Dr title and use Mr and Mrs etc.

    I'd say that if ICANN want to enforce a rule then it should be that if societal norms give you the right to use the title doctor then you should be able to register a .doctor domain.

    1. Chris Miller

      Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

      What do the Germans call a man with two doctorates? Herr doktor doktor. In fact "Herr Professor Doktor Doktor Schmidt" would be considered a perfectly normal form of academic address. And then if he's an engineer as well ...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Joke

        Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

        > Herr doktor doktor.

        "That's Mister Doctor Professor Schmidt to you!"

    2. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

      If the intent is that the domain be reserved for medical doctors then in the UK it ought to be relatively easy to manage because you must be registered with the GMC to practise as a medical doctor in the UK.

    3. david 12 Silver badge

      Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

      In the UK anyone with a PhD is not a real doctor, and only wishes to be called a doctor out of envy. Or (traditionally) so that they can feel justified squeezing into parking spaces that say "Doctors only".

      If they actually thought the PhD meant anything, they would be calling themself "John Smith, PhD", instead of trying to pretend that the traditional English qualifier for a medical doctor applied.

      1. localzuk Silver badge

        Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

        @david 12 - you might want to look into the history of the term "Doctor", as it is from the Latin "to teach", in relation to teaching in a university. It had no relation to medicine at all.

        The use of "Doctor" for medical professionals is closer to a colloquialism than any other definition, as medical doctors already have possible titles available, per their profession: Physician and Surgeon.

        1. david 12 Silver badge

          Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

          >The use of "Doctor" for medical professionals is closer to a colloquialism than any other definition,

          Accepting your colloguial use of "colloquialism", and your point is? You think medical doctors aren't "real" doctors because of a semantic point?

          I take the opposite point of view. Medical Doctors are Real Doctors because they are real doctors. PhDs aren't real doctors because all they have is title pinched from the historical past when the language of instruction wasn't even English.

          1. localzuk Silver badge

            Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

            You are trying to create a distinction as to what a "real doctor" is. I am trying to point out that your grounds for doing so are flawed - the term Doctor pre-dates its use in the medical profession.

            If you wish to diminish the use of the term Doctor for PhDs, then you should more rightly do so for its use in the medical profession, based on its historic use. Before medical doctors were referred to as doctors, they were referred to as physicians. It is MD's who have appropriated the term.

            However, both ways of using the term are used consistently world wide. A doctor can be an MD or a PhD. So, the idea that one or the other is a "real" doctor is nonsensical to say the least.

            Also, my use of colloquialism wasn't itself colloquial. You seem to be struggling with the English language a bit.

      2. DavCrav

        Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

        "In the UK anyone with a PhD is not a real doctor, and only wishes to be called a doctor out of envy. Or (traditionally) so that they can feel justified squeezing into parking spaces that say "Doctors only"."

        Let's see: I spent four years getting an undergraduate degree, and four years doing advanced research. Technically I have a DPhil rather than a PhD but it's the same thing.

        I'm guessing from this bollocks that you aren't a worthwhile person and only wish to pretend to be a worthwhile person out of envy.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: In the UK Medical Doctors aren't Real Doctors!

          >Technically I have a DPhil rather than a PhD but it's the same thing.

          Also known as 2nd place ;-)

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Consultants etc

    In an English hospital a highly skilled medical Consultant is a "Mr" - not a "Dr". So by ICANN's reckoning .consultant should also be restricted.

    IIRC the term "architect" is theoretically reserved for members of the appropriate design qualification for physical structures. Some countries also protect "engineer" to a certain professional qualification.

    1. John H Woods Silver badge

      Re: Consultants etc

      "a highly skilled medical Consultant is a "Mr" AC

      Actually it's about surgery --- e.g. a senior psychiatric consultant is a Dr, a neurosurgeon a Mr, regardless of the other qualifications of each.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Consultants etc

        Apparently because surgeons were originally barber-surgeons, and not doctors at all.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Trollface

    They need two more letters on the end of that...

    ICANNOT...

  8. Arthur the cat Silver badge

    I'm reminded of NASA's convention

    So many people at NASA have a PhD (or two, or more!) that they reserve "Doctor" for medics.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: I'm reminded of NASA's convention

      Or a Caltech faculty party where someone's wife snootily introduced herself as a doctor.

      After a moment of confusion somebody realised and explained "oh, just a medic"

    2. Benchops

      Re: I'm reminded of NASA's convention

      Reminds me of the Mitchell and Webb sketch where the pompous brain surgeon introduces himself to the NASA engineer.

      1. John H Woods Silver badge

        Re: I'm reminded of NASA's convention

        Yeah it's here if you want to see it again. Off topic, but a good theme for El Reg is their radio skit on Identity Theft

  9. Mark 85

    Ah.... So Dr. Oz

    Will have a multitude selling his diet pills and "pill of the week"?

  10. Efros

    .doctor in indecipherable font. .MD or even .quack would be better.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      .MD

      .MD would be distinctly better but is sadly already taken by Moldova.

      (My doctorate is in how many things they let you do doctorates in these days)

      1. SolidSquid

        Re: .MD

        My doctorate is a meta study on the recent proliferation of meta studies as a subject of a doctoral thesis. There's a lot of self reflection and so far I'm at n+1 levels of recursion

  11. x 7

    so where does one register to reserve

    crippen.doctor

    buckruxton.doctor

    shipman.doctor

    mengele.doctor???????

    presumably these would all be allowed?

  12. Irongut

    Does anyone actually use these TLDs? I read lots of stories about ICANN creating them, other people complaining about the rules and price, etc but I've never actually seen one in the wild. Every website I visit is from the classic TLDs .com, .net, .org or a country domain like .co.uk.

  13. Eugene Crosser

    It's paramaunt to keep spin doctors out

    the rest are acceptable casualties.

    1. Simon Harris

      Re: It's paramount to keep spin doctors out

      Spin doctors could have their own 'doctor' TLD, but encoded in ROT13.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Well, screws my plans for...

    Www.octopus.doctor

  15. Simon Harris

    Alternatively...

    Can we have a .PhD TLD to separate the doctors from the 'doctors'?

    Just to confuse people, I'm not a medical doctor, but have a doctorate from a medical school.

    1. WatAWorld

      Re: Alternatively...

      Medicine is not the only professional doctorate (non-Phd doctors) anymore.

      There are veterinarians, dentists, optomistrists, lawyers, professional doctorates are becoming increasingly common.

      All these people call themselves doctors despite not having earned Phds.

  16. raving angry loony

    Suggestion nobody will listen to...

    They should have a .med domain instead, to include the medical professions. Then a .hoax domain, for the homeopaths and others.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Happy

      Re: Suggestion nobody will listen to...

      New gTLD suggestion: dot.itsjustfuckingwater perhaps?

  17. T. F. M. Reader

    johnsmith.phd

    looks quite natural, actually, and does not give the impression that your office is in Moldova...

  18. WatAWorld

    It could have been .MD, .Surgeon, .Physician

    Who made ICANN the definer of the English Language?

    So what about UK surgeons who call themselves Mr?

    It is like in the UK where an Asian is someone from India or Pakistan, or the USA where an Asian is someone from China.

    It's a kind of imperialism and overarching sense of entitlement.

    In Canada and the USA, dentists, surgeons, chiropractors, veterinarians are common and generally call themselves doctors in the medical environment. (Homeopaths and naturopaths are rare.)

    And Phds in other fields call themselves Dr in academic environments.

    1. Simon Harris
      Meh

      Re: It could have been .MD, .Surgeon, .Physician

      "And Phds in other fields call themselves Dr in academic environments."

      I''l call myself Dr. in whichever environment I want to, thank you very much!

  19. WatAWorld

    I can foresee lawsuits against ICANN over this.

    ICANN has decided foreign locums should have the same status as locally licensed physicians and surgeons.

    So ICANN has decided to give the impression that any medical school graduate is qualified to practice medicine anywhere in the world?

    US doctors are not going to be happy that "poorly trained" people from third world countries can present themselves as fully qualified US doctors.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Happy

      Re: I can foresee lawsuits against ICANN over this.

      Whenever anyone talks about ICANN in the way you do in your first sentence, the only thing my brain processes is: ICAN HAZ CHEEZBURGER

      Is that wrong?

  20. WatAWorld

    Doctorates go back to the 1100s. Medical doctorates go back to 1780.

    http://www.findaprofessionaldoctorate.com/advice/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate#Professional_doctorate

    http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20130704133923315

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate#History

    History

    The term "doctorate" derives from the Latin docere meaning "to teach". The doctorate (Latin: doctor, "teacher," from doctum, "[that which is] taught," past participle of (docere), "to teach") appeared in medieval Europe as a license to teach Latin: (licentia docendi) at a medieval university.[1] Its roots can be traced to the early church when the term "doctor" referred to the Apostles, church fathers, and other Christian authorities who taught and interpreted the Bible.[1]

    The right to grant a (licentia docendi) was originally reserved to the Catholic church, which required the applicant to pass a test, to take an oath of allegiance and pay a fee. The Third Council of the Lateran of 1179 guaranteed the access—at that time largely free of charge—of all able applicants. Applicants were tested for aptitude.[2] This right remained a bone of contention between the church authorities and universities that were slowly distancing themselves from the Church. The right was granted by the pope to the University of Paris in 1213 where it became a universal license to teach (licentia ubiquie docendi).[2] However, while the licentia continued to hold a higher prestige than the bachelor's degree (Baccalaureus), it was ultimately reduced to an intermediate step to the Magister and doctorate, both of which now became the exclusive teaching qualification.[2]

    University doctoral training was a form of apprenticeship to a guild. The traditional term of study before new teachers were admitted to the guild of "Masters of Arts" was seven years, matching the apprenticeship term for other occupations. Originally the terms "master" and "doctor" were synonymous, but over time the doctorate came to be regarded as a higher qualification than the master's degree. Makdisi's revised hypothesis that the doctorate originated in the Islamic (Ijazah), a reversal of his earlier view that saw both systems as of "the most fundamental difference",[3] was rejected by Huff as unsubstantiated.[4]

  21. Allan George Dyer
    Facepalm

    Once it's registered?

    "ICANN has nothing to do with content."

    So, an MD can register sexynursesand.doctor as a legitimate medical practitioner, and use it for, well, what do you think?

    Has ICANN thought this through?

    1. nijam Silver badge

      Re: Once it's registered?

      > "ICANN has nothing to do with content." ...

      ... and a great deal to do with discontent.

  22. skebenga

    Only works in English

    In other languages, at least Spanish, a medical doctor is a "medico" and "doctor" means a doctor at a university. So this TLD decision is a little biased in favour of English.

  23. Michael Hawkes
    Boffin

    Sad if they go through with it

    We'll miss out on such fun things like

    doctor.doctor/give_me_the_news/ive_got_a_bad_case_of/loving_you

    doctor.doctor/cant_you_see_im_burning_burning

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Sad if they go through with it

      doctor.doctor/i/feel/like/a/pair/of/curtains.php

  24. saabpilot

    Does nobody use Engish anymore

    Has everyone forgotten the CORRECT TITLE is "Physician" since M.D. would screw with the domains :)

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Does nobody use Engish anymore

      At the risk of making an equally sweeping statement: No-one on the Eastern side of the pond uses the word "physician", at all, for anything. It's not a word.

  25. x 7

    well.....historically a british doctor was awarded a double degree as a first degree......MB.ChB (or MB.ChiB)

    I can't remember the exact latin it represents......but we (then) schoolkids took it to mean "Master of Butchery, Choppery and Blood"

    The double degree was due to the surgeons trade stemming from two sources: the medieval monastic learned tradition, and the on-the-job training tradition of the surgeon-barber. Two different skill sets, so two different degrees, awarded together.

  26. Stevie

    Bah!

    I play complex old-school war games for fun and insist on strict adherence to the rules as written. This prompts younger, ADD-riddled gamers with sub-par reading skills to label me a "rules-lawyer", something I turn back on them by wearing the badge proudly.

    Where do I get my dot-lawyer domain?

    1. Simon Harris

      Re: Bah!

      You may want to check they haven't read Henry VI part 2 before you do that.

  27. x 7

    Does this "doctor" qualify? They were originally sold as medical devices as a cure for female hysteria

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/defenestr8or/4157286588/

  28. Trigonoceps occipitalis

    .engineer

    Any chance they'll restrict this tld to real engineers only?

    1. raving angry loony
      Trollface

      Re: .engineer

      Yeah. Civil engineers only. The rest are just pretenders. Or did you have something else in mind? ;)

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