back to article Ford to save you from BIKE FITNESS HORROR

Ford is looking at electric bicycles as part of an intelligent, integrated future for mobility. The company told El Reg that it had to look at mobility in the round, be it public transport, shared cars, walking or cycling, and not just focus on traditional driving. Ford is not the first car company to look at building …

  1. AceRimmer

    all the wheels?

    "The pro version is designed to fold into a Transit van with the wheels removed"

    All the wheels or just the back two?

    1. LaeMing
      Go

      Re: all the wheels?

      If you only have one bike, you only have to remove the wheels on the side of the van you are stowing it on. For two bike storage, all 4 wheels must be removed. If you want a handlebar basket with plastic flowers on it, you have to take out the spare too.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Go

        Re: all the wheels?

        TheReg clearly omitted certain facts as usual, for one that the van does come with a bike rack. The supplied MIG welder (110 AC) lets you attach it in any fashion you want.

        1. Dave 126 Silver badge

          Re: all the wheels?

          >The pro version is designed to fold into a Transit van with the wheels removed.

          What, so if you don't remove the wheels from the bike then you can't fit it in a Transit? Just how big is this bike?

          1. Extra spicey vindaloo
            Joke

            Re: all the wheels?

            It's a transformer? It's a bike and at the push of a button it folds into a transit van, with the back wheels removed*.

            Bizzare!

            *bricks not supplied

            1. Elmer Phud

              Re: all the wheels?

              "It's a bike and at the push of a button it folds into a transit van, with the back wheels removed*"

              Well, yes.

              That was my first thought.

              But being all eco an all that stuff, shirley a brick of compressed paper or passing dolphin or similar?

          2. Stoneshop

            Re: all the wheels?

            Just how big is this bike?

            Beats me.

            We've got a Renault Kangoo, which is the same category as a Transit Connect, and you can stuff a regular, non-folding, full-size bike in the back without effort.

          3. fruitoftheloon
            Happy

            @Dave 126: Re: all the wheels?

            Dave,

            There is a Transit combi/connect (can't recall the proper name) that is based on a focus hatchback - hence is considerably smaller than the full fat Transit.

            Regards,

            J.

            1. LaeMing
              Go

              Re: full-fat Transit

              Those are the ones that clog the arteries, aren't they?

          4. AlanB

            Re: all the wheels?

            If the plan is "two people unpack goods from the van onto the bikes", then the more space the bikes take up, the fewer goods fit in, and the fewer local bike deliveries you can do with one van load.

  2. Haku

    "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

    Yeah, good luck trying to sell those to people who live in places me - they don't call my area "The Five Valleys" for nothing!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

      Indeed, and in hilly terrain, I expect that 200W motor to drain the 9Ah battery in mere minutes. 35km range? Not likely.

    2. John Robson Silver badge

      Re: "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

      It's almost as if Ford haven't been around for the last 100+ years. Derailleurs are new kids on the block (sorry) when it comes to gearing on a bike.

      With anything from 2 speed automatic to 14 speed manual gearboxes, or 350% CVT hubs available that belt isn't a bad idea. Although getting the correct belt pretension each time you get the bike out would be a bit of a pain.

      Why not have it fold like any other mixed mode cycle - the brompton, for instance, folds the chain into the middle of the package, so there's no need to be concerned about it - well certainly no more than the wet road soup that drips off the tyres...

      1. Stoneshop
        FAIL

        Ford: Any gearing you want, as long as it's fixed

        Because Sturmey Archer, Torpedo, Sachs, Rohloff and Shimano can't build hub gears worth fitting into a bike made by a manufacturer who's only ever built cars.

        1. Elmer Phud

          Re: Ford: Any gearing you want, as long as it's fixed

          "Rohloff"

          or the Sheldon bike with three at the front, ten at the back and a 14 speed Rohloff in the hub -- you do it 'cos you can.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Ford: Any gearing you want, as long as it's fixed

          See bicycles as the open source world and cars as the proprietary software business.

          There are many parallels.

          Bicycles use standards, many new standards are proposed, made open source and licence free (BB90 etc).

          Cars always seem to use proprietary components. So car makers producing bicycles stick to what they know, odd frames, wheels and custom stuff which once is worn out won;t be easy or cheap to replace.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

        Belt drive is power sapping though. Same with shaft drive and other new fangled chain replacements.

        Not an issue on a motorbike or motor vehicle.

        On the flat you wouldn't notice too much, on hills you would.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          Re: "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

          "Power sapping"

          Do you have experience with this?

          Because it's just not supported by any of the people I know who run belts - both Gates Carbon and other similar belts.

          1. Tom 7

            Re: "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

            You would think that if belts really were sapping then every engine would have a timing chain!

            1. handle

              Re: "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

              @Tom 7 no you wouldn't - a car has plenty of spare power; a bike does not. Ever tried pushing a car? Then you'll realise how little difference the energy absorbed by a timing belt makes.

              By the way, I thought a "fixie" was a bike with no freewheel (so the pedals turn whenever it is moving) - isn't this one a "single speed"?

              1. Andrew Torrance

                Re: "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

                Yep , its not a fixie . You cant have a fixie powered bike it would break your legs . Its a single speed . Also belts are being used on several bikes now instead of chains when no deraileur is used

                1. Dan 10

                  Re: "there is no derailleur....so the prototypes are fixies"

                  LOL at the idea of a fixie e-bike - you WILL pedal all the way to work... and past it... etc

  3. Richard Crossley

    China

    Plenty of electric bikes in China, did Ford copy the Chinese on this one?

  4. ManFromOz

    electric bikes are established technology

    It always amuses me when there non-bike companies keep coming out with e-bicycle 'prototypes' and 'concepts', as if they are new and revolutionary. Generally these things are built by non-bicycle specialists, and are impractical and not well designed.

    Meanwhile, established and respected e-bike companies are on their fourth or fifth-generation designs by now, have ironed out most of the issues, and concentrate on the stuff that matters (ride comfort and stability, smoothness of assistance, range and power optimisation, weight etc), rather than being distracted by radar sensors and vibrating handlebars or whatever.

    For example:

    http://www.gazellebikes.com/collection-bikes/chamonix-t10-hybrid-m

    I have a gazelle e-bike, and it is a joy to ride. The technology is impressive, although very transparent - you feel like superman riding these things, bowling along, up the hills - and it's only when you turn the assist off that you realise how much the bike is actually doing for you!

    Given how much time El Reg devotes to electric cars, I'm surprised they don't do a piece on e-bikes. As an answer to the problem 'How to transport a single human being 10km to work each day' they are a much more logical answer than 'put him inside a two-tonne metal box that needs huge batteries and motors to make it go'...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Meh

      Re: electric bikes are established technology

      "...rather than being distracted by radar sensors and vibrating handlebars or whatever."

      Could have been worse. Could have airbags. To, y'know, throw the rider clear of an impending crash, or more likely, well above it...

    2. Warm Braw

      Gazelle e-bike

      At that price, it would almost certainly be cheaper to buy a tandem and pay someone else to pedal it for you.

      Vanishingly few people are going to spend two grand on a bike that will need secure parking while removing the principle benefit of a traditional bike - the fact you can hop on it and go without notice or preparation.

      1. stucs201

        Re: Gazelle e-bike

        Electric bike prices do seem rather high. The cost of one that's at all likely to be reliable seems closer to motorbike prices than pedal-bike prices (*), despite most of their parts being shared with pedal bike. Are batteries and motors really that expensive?

        I'd quite like an electric bike to get to work on, but for the relatively short distance involved and these prices it makes more finacial sense to just carry on putting fuel in the car and forget about a bike.

        * Yes I know some people spend this sort of money on pedal-bikes, but they tend to be enthisiasts wanting the lightest possible bike, whereas the electric bike seems more suited to the commuter who doesn't fancy arriving at work half-dead from strugling up hills.

        1. Guildencrantz

          Re: Electric bike prices do seem rather high.

          I dunno, you can get a conversion kit with a superb Bafang BPM hillclimber motor, and a Samsung battery which will do 80km for about £500. Wooshbikes are pretty much the leaders for high-quality low-cost serious ebikes in the UK, they're the ebike geek's choice for cyclists on a budget, you can get a superb bike from them for £600-800 (although £600 would be 'good', and an £800 bike like the Big Bear would be 'superb')

          1. stucs201

            Re: Electric bike prices do seem rather high.

            600 is somewhat more realistic, at least thats less than my annual fuel bill for the car (I only fill the tank once a month)

            1. John Robson Silver badge

              Re: Electric bike prices do seem rather high.

              "600 is somewhat more realistic, at least thats less than my annual fuel bill for the car (I only fill the tank once a month)"

              So you pay no insurance, VED, servicing, MOT costs?

              I assume your vehicle is already fully depreciated.

              If you rag the battery too often it will need replacing at some point, but hopefully battery tech can have stepped up a generation each time you do (and you can always stay one generation "old")

              1. stucs201

                Re: So you pay no insurance, VED, servicing, MOT costs?

                I'd still need the car anyway, I'd not be able to do every journey by bike. So there would be no saving to make on those fixed once per year costs (I get it serviced at MOT time even though I wouldn't need it on millage alone), just fuel and saved millage.

    3. Mr Common Sense
      Meh

      Re: electric bikes are established technology

      Unfortunately their bikes costs about £1500 upwards which is into scooter or motorbike territory both being vehicles with more materials and complex parts than ebikes.

  5. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

    Weak article

    "9-amp-hour battery"

    At how many volts? Come on, only Wired should make mistakes like this.

    "electric pedal assist for speeds of up to 25km/h"

    That's hardly impressive, and hardly difficult on a normal bike.

    1. ratfox

      Re: Weak article

      The point of an e-bike is not to go faster than a normal bike, it's to be less tiring.

      1. Elmer Phud

        Re: Weak article

        "The point of an e-bike is not to go faster than a normal bike, it's to be less tiring."

        I can only assume you've not seen the shots of the off-road bike that can do 45kph +

        Or that my mates new leccy hub thingy gives him 15mph up Muswell Hill?

    2. Stoneshop

      Re: Weak article

      "electric pedal assist for speeds of up to 25km/h"

      Which is a regulation issue, at least here in the EU. If it were to go faster under power, you'd have to register and insure it like a moped.

      Some e-bikes can be registered as moped, and ridden powered at higher speeds. A friend is planning to buy one for commuting, about 30km one way.

    3. handle

      Re: Weak article

      @ Kevin McMurtrie - you're right, Ah is pointless on its own, but the whole article just smacks of regurgitated press release - you can't expect the author to go to the trouble of actually finding out the answer to that question...

  6. Voland's right hand Silver badge

    The old adage

    A 5 kg bicycle needs 10 kg lock and chain

    A 10 kg bicycle needs 5kg lock and chain

    A 15kg bicycle needs no lock and no chain nowdays - that is heavier than the worst pseudo-mountain bike dual suspension piece of badly welded steel rubbish from Walmart (or Tesco on this side of the pond).

    I am not going to even comment on the idea of a 20kg bicycle with a fixed transmission. They could have at least used Peugeout (in-hub) gears in the rear wheel. These are preferred for city/commuter use anyway because they are much less susceptible to rust.

    1. Elmer Phud

      Re: The old adage

      Or - 10% of the original bike cost?

      Tesco? When doing Dr Bikes I've condemned brand new Toys R Us flatpackshite.

      'Take it back, you cannot used it as a BMX with the brake cable wrapped round the forks, or gears that don't work. Get yer money back and go to a BIKE SHOP not a 'Shop that sells bikes' "

  7. Allan George Dyer

    "fold into a Transit van"

    Wow! Elite ninja origami skills, but shouldn't that be unfolds?

    "with the wheels removed"

    Uh, OK, still elite ninja origami skills, but zero practicality.

  8. IDoNotThinkSo

    Peugeot made good bikes long before it started making rubbish cars.

    Looks like Ford now want to make rubbish bikes long after it started making average cars.

  9. ukgnome

    That thing on the back of it though?

    Do you HAVE TO deliver pizza?

    1. Stoneshop

      On the back

      Looks like L-Boxx/systainer power tool cases. Nice stuff, bit pricey, but I suppose you can earn some of the required moolah by carrying pizza and stuff in them.

  10. Zog The Undeniable
    FAIL

    The problem with electric bicycles

    is that they still have the two biggest disadvantages of a normal bicycle, viz. exposure to the elements (so you still have to face 5 miles into a headwind with sleet, as I did this Monday) and the danger of sharing the roads with people in fast armoured motor vehicles. The effort involved in pedalling a conventional bike is really not even a tiny part of the problem, and at least it keeps you fit. Cycle paths? Nice in principle, if only they were swept of broken glass, salted in winter and somehow kept free of uncontrolled dogs.

    Of course, popular perception is that we don't pay "road tax" and all of us jump red lights and knock over old grannies when we take a short cut on the pavement, so this post was probably a waste of time.

    1. Tom 7

      Re: The problem with electric bicycles

      I think you're missing the point of this - a lot of towns and cities have car free areas (or at least places you wouldn't park unless you are picking up your lottery winnings) so this means a delivery van can provide good service for relatively small items quite easily and effectively.This isn't a mode of transport - it seems like quite a sensible solution to a very common problem and returns the transit van to its original purpose as a delivery vehicle and not a collecting things quickly before their owner comes back vehicle.

  11. Graham Marsden
    Thumb Down

    "This enables a rider alert system...

    "... that both warns the cyclist when a vehicle is overtaking,"

    Thus removing the need for Lifesaver shoulder checks? Hmm.

    > and alerts motorists of the presence of the e-bike by illuminating handlebar lights.

    Thus meaning motorists don't need to make proper observation because the bike will do it for them.

    Hmm...

  12. J.G.Harston Silver badge

    There doesn't seem to be any indication of price. I paid £20 for my bicycle, I'm unlikely to be prepared to pay any significant multiple of that for electric assistance, and it would have to get me up the hills in Sheffield.

  13. Gartal

    The thing that Ford forgot

    Lots of nice comments here, some even vaguely related to the topic which is a novel proposition.

    "The usage model Ford gives is: a company which has deliveries to make, can drive to an area, two people unpack goods from the van onto the bikes, and then cycle round making the deliveries, with the van moving to a rendezvous point where the bikes can catch up with it, be loaded and recharge before going on to the next distribution point"

    If this was a viable or even useful model then it would be in use already with muscle powered bikes. Like the Segway (Segue? Sequguteiax?) it is a solution looking for a problem. As is the whole idea of strapping any sort of motor to a pushbike. Sorry, E-bikes and the like are ......... crap? nonsense? a nun on a penny farthing? (Virgin on the ridiculous)

    1. Marcelo Rodrigues

      Re: The thing that Ford forgot

      "Sorry, E-bikes and the like are ......... crap? nonsense? a nun on a penny farthing? (Virgin on the ridiculous)"

      Not quite. e-bikes have their place: when You don't want, or can't, pedal. Maybe the hill is too steep, maybe You can't arrive all sweaty at work. Or maybe You are an older person, not strong enough to face that damned last hill.

      All of this shouldn't get in the way of someone using a bicycle. Even using the engine on the last hill, the rest of the way could be by human power. Nothing like a liitle exercise, huh?

  14. Gartal

    One other thing....

    I notice that you need a car to make your bike work. That is just fucked.

  15. Infernoz Bronze badge
    Flame

    Frack Bicycle Hub Gears and any gear change at the hub, always a really stupid idea!

    A hub gear in a bicycle wheel will always be a pain in the butt because it will make the wheel a pain to take off to fix punctures, change tires or even swap wheels for winter/ice tires, and worse they make it much more expensive when the Rim needs replacing, because the hub has to re-spoked rather than replaced with a commodity whole wheel!

    Put all the damned (sealed) gear changing in the frame already, as all 21st century bicycles should have by now!

    Still waiting with a Derailer bicycle, which is also a pain, but at least affordable for wheels...

    1. stucs201

      Re: Frack Bicycle Hub Gears and any gear change at the hub, always a really stupid idea!

      Do you have some specific alternative in mind? Something in the bottom bracket? Part of a shaft drive? Or just a general wish for something better?

      I ask because I think one of the reasons I've hardly ever ridden my bike is that it turns out I *hate* derailers, so if I was to buy an alternative my inclination would be towards hub gears - not that I've much experience of those either (my previous bike was a BMX as a kid), but vaguely recall them being much nicer from having a go on a mate's Grifter.

      I'm not sure I'm too worried about punctures being a hassle, they would be anyway for me (fixing the last one involved whinging "Dad....!" about quarter of a century ago). Similarly changing rims - I can't think why I'd do that other than a crash bad enough to bend a wheel, in which case I've got bigger things to worry about than the labour cost of getting someone to rebuild the wheel.

      1. johnnymotel

        Re: Frack Bicycle Hub Gears and any gear change at the hub, always a really stupid idea!

        You know there is already one manufacturer making a motor/battery combo that fits in the down tube and drives the BB shaft through a gear? Cannot remember their name, but I thought it looked a brilliant idea and one that could be developed further. They make the diameter suitable for most standard downtimes, but why not make a fatter downtime and fit a bigger motor/battery combo.

  16. jzlondon

    Stupid car people

    Just the sort of thing you'd expect from a car company and a bunch of people who spend their lives living and breathing cars and petrol. Ridiculous.

    What's wrong with just buying a bicycle? There are plenty of really good ones. If you want one that folds, there's a really big choice of those too.

  17. skeptical i
    Meh

    Ford is coming late to a party already in progress.

    Wouldn't people who run deliveries into no-drive areas (congestion-free zone, housing estate, uni campus, whatever) already be schlepping a bike (folding, electric, or otherwise) to bring the merch the final leg of the journey from the parking lot to the customers' doors? Aside from possibly having colour- matched cycles and vee-hickles for marketing/ branding, I am not seeing much real advantage here. As has been pointed out above, bicycle manufactures have been refining leccy bike designs for a while now; Ford would be better off entering a joint venture with one of them rather than trying to reinvent the [spoked] wheel.

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