Fact Hunt!
there is no translation for lesbian from English to Icelandic
Google has apologised after its language-scraping service offered up offensive alternatives including "poof" and "faggot" as replacements for the word gay. Campaign group All Out spotted the blunder and complained about the slurs to Google. The ad giant then replaced the words with more neutral terms. The worst insults to …
I for one don't think we should censor a dictionary type resource just because of sensibilities.
Whilst I'm inclined to agree, in part, I don't see why translations to certain words cannot be tagged, as offensive, vulgar, slang, etc. (as they are in dictionaries) and why Google cannot apply the equivalent of 'safe search' to them.
If I were to use it to translate a document into another language (caveat emptor, I know), it would be a reasonable expectation that it wouldn't use offensive terms, unless I specifically allowed it to. In the more likely situation where I am translating a document from another language into English in order to understand it, I typically wouldn't want the resulting text to be peppered with bigotry.
Conversely, if the source document contains text which is racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise distasteful, and I wished to know what nasty things the author had been saying, but translated into my own language, it would seem reasonable to have an option to preserve such language in the translation. However distasteful such terms are, they still convey meaning.
@Loyal Commenter
You are requesting a fairly major increase in functionality. Certainly what you are suggesting would be useful, but it's beyond the scope of what Google currently does.
In the mean time, single interest, narrow-focus pressure groups are attempting not to increase the functionality, but to remove the use, in any context, of words they don't like. Which is not, really, constructive.
You are requesting a fairly major increase in functionality. Certainly what you are suggesting would be useful, but it's beyond the scope of what Google currently does.
Given that organisationally, Google are perfectly set up for exactly this sort of data analytics, you'd probably be surprised at how little work this would be. I reckon it would probably turn out to be a couple of weeks work for one programmer, to define the rules and techniques for extracting such information, and then a learning period for the software as it goes to work categorising the data. Given that Google's Oompah-Loompahs are purportedly given a day a week to work on their own projects, it wouldn't surprise me if someone was already working on it.
>In the mean time, single interest, narrow-focus pressure groups are attempting not to increase the functionality, but to remove the use, in any context, of words they don't like.
That's a tall order. Words become offensive when they reflect the offensive intent of the users. It is the intent, not the letters or sound which is offensive. Until you can erase hateful people, you won't ever erase words full of hate. It works both ways though... "I hate your hateful words, therefore I hate you and seek to marginalise/erase you." appears to be the common moral-high-ground-surrendering response.
There do appear to be activists who seek out all opposition to their cause and try to destroy it by any and all means. They tend to be quite obnoxious, sad people. They remind me of present-day Nazi-hunters. Yes, the Nazis were bad people, but there is little to be gained from prosecuting 90-year-olds. If doing so would undo the evil they did, prevent future abominations or really even demonstrate justice in action I'd be all for it. At this point however, it just makes the hunters look like people who nurture spite and hate with an inability to forgive.
As has been said, tag the terms appropriately as colloquial, slang and.or vulgar. Job done.
@Loyal Commenter
Be careful with Google Translate, I tried it on a safety manual. GT doesn't seem to like unabbreviated sentences. E.g. "Don't" translates correctly, but "Do not" translates to "do", at least in German.
My safety manual, which read "do not open the case, no user servicable parts inside" translated into German read the equivalent of "open the case, no parts inside" :-D
More worrying was that "do not open the case, high voltage inside" translated to "open the case, high voltage inside," I think Google must have noticed that I had stopped using Android and was using a Windows Phone...
@big_D
I absolutely agree; if you trust the translation from Google, you are asking for what you get. As I said, caveat emptor
Fun examples can be had by taking a sentence of your choice, using Google Translate to translate this to a second language, then taking this translation, translating it to a third language, and finally back to the original language.
The above sentence translated to Greek, then Japanese, then back to English, reads:
"Fun example, Google is, to translate it in a second language, taking this translation, translated into third language, using eventually return to the original language, by taking the penalty of your choice you can be had."
You can be had indeed...
Depends, if you use an offensive word in English, then it should probably translate it into an equivalently offensive word in the other language, and if you use a politically correct word, it should.
However, Google is nowhere near as good as a skilled human translator, and it works by examining already translated texts, so maybe I'm asking too much.
Is it even possible nowadays to "not" offend someone, or some group, or some subset of and subset of a tiny proportion of infinitesimally minor range of people.
When we have reduced the language to 16 words and the human brain to nothing more than a slot machine will we then have achieved satisfaction for the Nanny State and it's members.
After reading about Cumberbatchs' apology the other day I decided to have a look around for the list of words that I'm not supposed to use.
Guess, what..there doesn't appear to be one.
This is actually quite clever, because people who are constantly watching what they say (just in case it might offend) are effectively already mind-controlled.
Control the language and you control the scope of thought processes.
Control the language and you control the scope of thought processes.
More fool them...
More of a hinderanc to anything intelligent or productive rather than any other behaviours. How much 'scope of thought processes' is actually needed to encapsulate the concept of say, having sex with a member of the underage population, or hitting somebody over the head repeatedly with a length of wood or throwing old women off the top of large buildings? In fact, in lieu of anybody interesting to talk to or the ability to formulate more meaningful thoughts I'd wager these activities would gain in popularity.
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of course someone will still be offended by "melon farmer"
This is why I sometimes have a tablet or laptop nearby, while watching movies at home.
Urban Dictionary. Seriously, I would have been completely lost watching "Deuce Bigalow" otherwise.
They should include subtitles for these.
You don't actually get what the problem is.
When I write a sentence, I want to use words that are exactly as nice and friendly, or exactly as offensive and insulting, as I want them to be. So I don't mind offensive words in a dictionary, if they are part of the used language.
A dictionary giving English translations, presumably used by someone who doesn't speak English well, can translate say French insults to English insults, but here it translates inoffensive words into very offensive words. Someone said these words should be marked as "vulgar" or "offensive", but there were some that fall into the category "may cause loss of teeth" or "will get your into deep trouble when used".
Also "ham doctor" as coined back in 2009.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/07/22
From the blurb:
A year ago, we saw a quiz thing that asked you to determine which of four odd phrases were euphemisms for sexual acts. By the time we had discovered this question, every item on the list had developed a carnal reputation. That is to say, *every item*. We are fast approaching a point where ordering a sandwich at a deli will land you in prison. While I’m intrigued by the dystopian undertones of this scenario, I don’t necessarily want to live under its strictures, not least of which because I tend to frequent delis.
Also, I’m pretty sure that “Dystopian Undertones” is guttermouth for the male testes. Make a note.
"But gay also meant prostitute. There, fixed your misplaced nostalgia for you."
Different nostalgia in different places methinks. I can remember describing myself as "a batchelor gay" when picking up ladies of the female gender for rather more than platonic love. It was a common phrase probably emanating from a popular song written in 1917. As I don't know the words I haven't a clue if that was euphemistic but if so it was lost of the lads of the 60s. Well those I knew. It was a bit embarrassing when a few years later it took on the other meaning. Had to rewrite my chat up script.
Not that either was very effective :-(
Since it is based on the French word "Gai", voila some etymology, in French of course
I will sum up some of the points in the text below.
Historically it appears to stem back to the 11th century.
Gay:
That which is funny humour, that which expresses gaiety; that which inspires gaiety, a calm and agreeable moment. Bubbly.
There are a few others less connected meaning which are not worth mentioning unless you need to know that it could express Light Green, Yellowish when speaking about soup....
Étymol. et Hist. 1. 2emoitié du xies. « qui est d'humeur riante (en parlant d'une personne); qui exprime la gaieté (visage, etc.) » (Levy Trésor, p. 121); ca 1155 « id. » (Wace, Brut, éd. I. Arnold, 1564); 2. ca 1225 tens ... gais « qui inspire la gaieté, temps agréable et doux » (Durmart le Gallois, éd. J. Gildea, 924); 3. ca 1300 vert gay « vert clair, jaunâtre (en parlant d'un bouillon) » (Taillevent, Viandier, éd. P. Aebischer, p. 94). Peut-être empr. de l'a. occitan gai « pétulant, gai » (dep. Guillaume IX ds FEW t. 16, p. 9 a; v. aussi Levy (E.) Prov.), lui-même issu du got. *gaheis « impétueux » (cf. a. h. all. gāhi « id. », all. jäh « brusque »), provenance qui serait due à l'infl. des troubadours (FEW, loc. cit.), ou plus vraisemblablement mot issu directement de l'a. h. all. gāhi d'où la forme attendue jai (xiiies., Pastourelles, éd. J. Cl. Rivières, CIX, 8). La prédominance de la forme avec g- s'explique en particulier par les interférences constantes entre gai et gaillard (v. DEAF, col. 35, s.v. gai).
I believe the use of the word to insinuate homosexuality (amongst other meanings, which have now fallen out of use) pre-dates that by a fair while. However, the use of the word to mean homosexual, as its primary meaning, and as a noun, rather than an adjective dates from the mid 20th century. It's first use in that sense on screen, for instance, was by Cary Grant in the film, "Bringing Up Baby" in 1938.
I've not seen the film in question myself, but on the website from which I cribbed this information:
Bringing Up Baby in 1938 was the first film to use the word gay to mean homosexual. Cary Grant, in one scene, ended up having to wear a lady’s feathery robe. When another character asks about why he is wearing that, he responds an ad-libbed line “Because I just went gay”. At the time, mainstream audiences didn’t get the reference so the line was thought popularly to have meant something to the effect of “I just decided to be carefree.”
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/02/how-gay-came-to-mean-homosexual/
I guess that, like me, he didn't get the memo about "coloured" now being a grossly offensive term outside the US, and made a slip using that word while within it. Apparently it isn't the meaning of the language you use that matters any more, just how compliant you are with the Universal PC English Dictionary.
Somebody should also tell the NAACP about this, lest they inadvertently offend themselves.
Yes, as a general rule.
But really there's a problem because bulldyke shouldn't be listed as a synonym of lesbian, because it's so specific. If I looked up "sportsman" I wouldn't expect a list of players of each sport.
(I don't actually think of bulldyke as offensive.)
'Bulldyke' borders on being a dangerous word. Those women who don't feel it describes them will be pissed off if called by it, while the (very tough and scary) women who really are BDs shouldn't be addressed with anything other than the most respectful terms, so as not to get a thump across the earhole or your neck stomped on.
There are words communities use that outsiders cannot use without risking censure or life and limb. The N word is an example. Similarly, the F word (fairy) is jokingly used within the community, but not by an outsider, not as a neutral term.
It would be nice, as another commentard has said, if 'slur' terms could be flagged up as such, as do dictionaries. I'd rather that than words being removed.
A queer problem indeed.
What a fag it must have been to specifically hunt this down and point it out to google. Now some poor intern has to get on with the fagging this has undoubtedly created.
Oh well Im sure whomever cleans this up will throw themselves at it with gay abandon, with all the vigor he can muster...soon enough *poof* the faggery will be over and the problem solved.
Ill get my coat, mines the black PVC one with silver spikes on the collar, hanging next to the gimp.
> Reminds me of time on holiday in the US when I mentioned (in a crowded bar in the deep south) that I was going out for a fag.
A colleague of mine on business in San Francisco commented that their railway stations were apparently not used as ashtrays (this was pre Smoking Ban) with the immortal phrase "I'm impressed by the state of fag butts around here".
That caused some confusion, I am informed.
Similar to the N word, Dr Dre can use it and even name his group after it....
wonder how many people in the US and UK were arrested asking for F*** the Police By N****** with Attitude in record shops.
Making a word "Un-Pc" doesn't stop it's use around the world,
Another US one, try saying to someone in a UK gym, "I love your toned fanny, How did you make it so firm?"
They would have a lot of work with modern Hebrew. In the small Bantam-Megiddo dictionary it is amazing how many apparently innocent words have translation alternatives as mostly male sexual terms. Even a letter of the alphabet "zayin" is rendered a common phallic expression by its upright shape.
NB Google translates the Hebrew ז as only being a letter of the alphabet - either G or M.
If you intended to use 'gay' as a pejorative then these are perfectly legitimate synonyms. Is Google supposed to use a lexicon without insults? Why? Insults are part of the language.
I occasionally admonish people who use the term 'gay' as a pejorative in anger (I can think of a bunch of better pejoratives that don't have the same connotations and are generally much less insulting) but expecting Google to account for that? That's just gay, frankly.
Seems that translating from another language to English also has issues.. I'm translating a monograph from French to English using Google (personal use, not professional so I can sort it out) but some of the words/phrases do make me laugh. Others might find offense.
So I'm guessing that going from say Spanish to Russian might offend someone, somewhere?
The sanitisation of the world continues. I feel that this is like chipping pieces off the Rosetta stone because you dont like the translations.
Google should be able to present an default option for those who want the world wrapped in cotton wool or those who want to be able to spot reality's razor edge.
<<Trolling?
I don't think think many normal, intelligent and rational people would fairly describe the Charlie Hebdo cartoons as "viciously insulting".>>
Fair comment. Likely unnecessary of me to use such barbed language. Will keep that in mind.
No, not trolling. Just felt that there seemed to be some inconsistency in Google's position on free (including offensive) speech and was wondering what others thought.