Australia's PM says data retention laws think of the children • The Register Forums

Tuesday 17th February 2015 23:48 GMT Mark 65

BS

If you are truly only keeping metadata then it doesn't help you one bit to see "what criminals are up to" as you need the content for that. Unless you see the content you have no idea what is going on. I could have a web server that contains content accessed via a URL that indicates some grotesque act of depravity but contains nothing but images of wild flowers or, likewise, the reverse case. Without the content you have nothing. The fact anyone you are really after likely uses encrypted point to point comms is clearly left out of the debate.

So far, in an attempt to get this nonsense passed he has invoked:

1. Nasty terrorists.

2. Think of the children.

What's next to justify this easily bypassed act of privacy invasion?

Tony, don't try to use a sound-bite to replace a sound policy.

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1. Wednesday 18th February 2015 00:21 GMT RealFred
  
  Re: BS
  
  Labor want in on it, afterall it was their baby to start with
  
  3 1 Reply
  1. Wednesday 18th February 2015 01:50 GMT MrDamage
    
    Re: BS
    
    Funny how that goes, isn't it.
    
    When Labor were in power, not only did the LNP oppose it, but Brandis also had very specific knowledge on what "metadata" contains.
    
    Now that the LNP are in power, not only are they gunning for metadata retention, but Brandis appears to have not only lost his notes, but completely forgotten his interviews with media outlets where he described metadata in detail.
    
    Add to this that Labor are now for it "in principle", but expect the LNP to describe exactly what is required before they agree to it.
    
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    1. Thursday 19th February 2015 21:42 GMT elljay75
      
      Re: BS
      
      Whilst I hate to disagree with the comment about LNP opposing the move to compulsory data retention..... according to this article, George Brandis was under the impression that "The public would accept a level of mandatory data retention" whilst Mark Dreyfus, the then LNP attorney general, scrapped the move....
      
      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/24/government-shelves-metadata-collection-plan
      
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2. Wednesday 18th February 2015 02:35 GMT John Tserkezis
  
  Re: BS
  
  "Without the content you have nothing."
  
  GovCo has been very vague about what "metadata" actually is. So much so, as things stand, it means EVERYTHING including the packet payload.
  
  "The fact anyone you are really after likely uses encrypted point to point comms is clearly left out of the debate."
  
  Likely not. They're also after those who don't encrypt their data, the ones who create world hunger, they bring countries to their knees, they destroy their's and other's economies. Yep, the worst criminals known to the history of mankind ever - the copyright thieves who shamlessly stole "Dallas Buyers Club". (now they're hiring third parties to collect data on who is "stealing" it)
  
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3. Wednesday 18th February 2015 03:36 GMT Sorry that handle is already taken.
  
  Re: BS
  
  Tony, don't try to use a sound-bite to replace a sound policy.
  
  Why would he change now, 21 years into his parliamentary career?
  
  5 0 Reply
4. Friday 20th February 2015 08:01 GMT JamesTQuirk
  
  Re: BS
  
  I hate to sound Victorian, I am from NSW, Maybe if porn & sex wasn't such a revv point in sales, Fashion, Sports, modern life, I do understand that's where all the little human's come from, I realise churches don't, or that they think locking guys up under celibacy for 50 years, might not be a mistake.
  
  Family LAW needs a change, let kids decide, give a housing/venue that kids have space & parents either side, let kid's provide truth, see what goes on, don't believe delaying "crap" in squabbles meant to frustrate court system ...
  
  I think the internet can be locked down on porn, it is a hunt, but, just needs political will, or reasoning ...
  
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Tuesday 17th February 2015 23:55 GMT veti

“A lot of people don't even use mobile phones that much these days, they use Skype and things like that,” he continued, “so metadata and its retention is more important than ever if we are going to be able to track what criminals are doing"

Are you saying, Mr Abbot, that you routinely analyse records of where every mobile phone call is made to and from?

What did you do before we had the software to monitor phone calls in this way? How did governments manage to keep us safe back in the 60s and 70s, when telephones were widespread but "metadata", or the tools to analyse it, simply didn't exist?

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1. Wednesday 18th February 2015 00:15 GMT RealFred
  
  They did, Telstra ( or the PMG in those days) had metadata that they used for billing. they knew who called who and for how long they spoke. In those days the government owned the telecoms network. They also were able to track letters and parcels if they wanted because everyone sent letters that had the return address on it.
  
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  1. Friday 20th February 2015 08:13 GMT JamesTQuirk
    
    Yeah, don't you remember Homicide, 'Bud' Tingwell, personally connecting a wiretap @ PMG Exchange,, I think I do ...
    
    On a personal note, my history teacher @ high school, a Mr Gregory, knew Charles 'Bud' Tingwell, & if we wanted a free period "more or less", we mention WW2 Bombers, & he would go into a long story of crashing a wellington bomber while training, while in same squadron as Tingwell ....
    
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Wednesday 18th February 2015 00:28 GMT Gray Ham

Germany

He cited a child abuse investigation in Europe, saying that in the UK around 25 per cent of suspects were convicted but in “Germany, which doesn't have metadata retention legislation, almost none of them were successfully prosecuted.”

This sort of begs the question "why doesn't Germany have metadata retention legislation?" ... is it because many Germans still remember the Stasi and the Gestapo?

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1. Wednesday 18th February 2015 01:53 GMT MrDamage
  
  Re: Germany
  
  Or it could be because the germans prefer their adult entertainment to involve fists, feet, and bodily secretions, instead of children.
  
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2. Monday 16th March 2015 22:23 GMT Cpt Blue Bear
  
  Re: Germany
  
  He cited a child abuse investigation in Europe, saying that in the UK around 25 per cent of suspects were convicted but in “Germany, which doesn't have metadata retention legislation, almost none of them were successfully prosecuted.”
  
  Thus presupposing guilt on the part of those suspects...
  
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Wednesday 18th February 2015 03:57 GMT dan1980

Hetty Johnson is a tireless campaigner for protection of children. She is also, unfortunately, a tireless self-promoting wowser who never misses an opportunity* to verbally wag her finger at everyone and express her disgust at everything; all is outrage and moral panic.

Her ignorant carping about anything she can use to push her name into the media is ignored by most people who still choose to use their brains and own judgement but therefore loved by politicians and tabloid media.

This is the kind of thing that we are getting from the Prime Minister and his lackeys - a one-sided commentary from those who are pushing the proposed laws. What news! Apparently the people who want this law passed think it's a good idea!

"His comments come after the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions briefed News Limited that a recent drug case, a 4.4 tonne ecstasy bust, rested on metadata."

Yeah, great. But, as the author points out, it's 'metadata' that CURRENTLY exists. Not passing this overly-broad and under-regulated law would have not hindered this bust one iota.

I do get what they're saying - if we can do this with the little we have, imagine what can be done with all the extra data we're asking for! That's a valid point. But if that's the logic we're using then why stop there? If the justification for such a law is the benefit to law enforcement then we can do far better than simply some metadata! Let's put cameras inside every room of every home! Let's issue mandatory ID cards that have to be scanned any time you get on a train or bus (close . . .) or enter a building or purchase anything. We could all wear GPS-trackable bracelets if they like.

That will help catch criminals so that's got to be good right?

* - Try her recent publicity around children sitting on Santa's lap in shopping centres.

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1. Saturday 7th March 2015 03:31 GMT kiwimuso
  
  @dan1980
  
  "Let's put cameras inside every room of every home! Let's issue mandatory ID cards that have to be scanned any time you get on a train or bus (close . . .) or enter a building or purchase anything. We could all wear GPS-trackable bracelets if they like."
  
  Nah! Don't need all that rubbish.
  
  Everyone is micro-chipped when they are born, and hey presto, you can track everybody!!!
  
  If you don't have, or 'volunteer' to have a chip implanted then you are automatically guilty.
  
  Nothing to hide, nothing to fear and all that crap as well.
  
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2. Sunday 2nd August 2015 11:49 GMT sbd
  
  "If the justification for such a law is the benefit to law enforcement then we can do far better than simply some metadata! Let's put cameras inside every room of every home! Let's issue mandatory ID cards that have to be scanned any time you get on a train or bus (close . . .) or enter a building or purchase anything. We could all wear GPS-trackable bracelets if they like.
  
  That will help catch criminals so that's got to be good right?"
  
  You realise that is exactly what they are getting. You have a mobile phone, the location is trackable as long as it is connected to cell towers. Victoria's Myki's, to fully use them you are asked to register an account, so you can view usage, and remaining balance... and scan them as you get on and off transport. Just not mandatory registration.. yet...
  
  On the article... think of the children? !!! Why not do something concrete about decades of abuse by the church, it's become a cultural meme, and all that has resulted from recent investigations is some wrist slaps... and while they're at it... look at the orphanage system, it doesn't take many conversations with those who were "cared for" to find out how rampant abuse has been over the past decades.
  
  But never mind all that, there's disgusting photos on that internet thingy, and we don't have to take blame for church or state institution if we focus on the internet!
  
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Wednesday 18th February 2015 04:42 GMT Winkypop

Electronic graffiti

If Tony was really interested in stopping child abuse he would start by getting the kids out of the detention camps. Their abuse is actual, it is known and it is documented.

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/asylum-seekers-and-refugees/national-inquiry-children-immigration-detention-2014

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1. Friday 20th February 2015 01:00 GMT RealFred
  
  Re: Electronic graffiti
  
  You obviously have a comprehension problem. Both the major parties were implicated, Labor actually put them in the detention center in the first place. Have a look at the photos for the detention center, the place is clean and tidy, the kids are being educated and are well fed while they wait for their parents documents to be found and identities verified
  
  2 1 Reply
  1. Friday 20th February 2015 11:59 GMT notowenwilson
    
    Re: Electronic graffiti
    
    Presumably there's no connection then between kicking back and waiting for your parents' documents to be processed and the negative effects on mental health for those kids. According to the RANZCP "There is now a large body of evidence to suggest that prolonged detention, particularly in isolated
    
    locations, with poor access to health and social services and uncertainty of asylum seeker claims, can
    
    have severe and detrimental effects."
    
    Or so they say here: https://www.ranzcp.org/Files/Resources/College_Statements/Position_Statements/ps52-pdf.aspx
    
    2 1 Reply
Wednesday 18th February 2015 05:13 GMT P. Lee

Liar!

I don't believe the cost is only 1% of 40Bn at all. Enterprise storage is expensive enough. Going carrier-scale would be massive.

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1. Wednesday 18th February 2015 13:16 GMT Mark 65
  
  Re: Liar!
  
  Errr, if I'm an ISP and you mandate that I retain metadata then I'm going straight out to buy a shittonne of wanky 1.5TB Seagates. No way I'd be spending on top line kit given I know the government will shaft me on the costing.
  
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Wednesday 18th February 2015 06:44 GMT Lyle Dietz

Think of the Children!

Anyone that uses that as an argument in their favour has just spouted a load of bollocks, and deserves to be kicked in same.

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Wednesday 18th February 2015 07:08 GMT DiViDeD

Well, terrorism AND protecting the children

So that's me sold. Where do I send the DNA sample?

In other news, that nice Mr Abbot explains why we haven't been experiencing this explosion in unsolved crime for the past 100 years.

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1. Tuesday 14th July 2015 07:41 GMT Shane 4
  
  Re: Well, terrorism AND protecting the children
  
  Ohh don't worry about the DNA sample, I am sure they are already in the process of getting a contract for someone to make all the RFID chips to place under each citizens skin!
  
  DNA only tells who you are, They(Governments around the globe) want far more information about you than that. They will be wanting to know where you are at all times soon.
  
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Wednesday 18th February 2015 08:05 GMT Malcolm Boura

I have assisted in a number of child pornography cases, both defence and police, in the UK. Communications data has not featured in any of them.

In the UK illegal photographs of children is very vague and includes far more than just pornography. That makes conviction easy and miscarriage of justice probable. I don't know the definition in Germany but it is almost certainly more sensible. Tony Abbott has forgotten that the objective is justice, not convictions. Justice is what really protects children.

This is yet another example of "think of the children" being shouted in the hope that all thought will stop.

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Wednesday 18th February 2015 09:57 GMT Anonymous Coward

Pathetic

In a word, Pathetic.

Technology and citizen rights post 9/11 are the only things getting "prosecuted". Most people have no idea the influence and scale the 5 Eyes NSA have already, they don't need more "metadata retention" they need less, and citizen rights of the 99% normal Australians (or anyone for that matter) should not be used as political cannon fodder. Period.

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1. Thursday 19th February 2015 02:03 GMT JamesTQuirk
  
  Re: Pathetic
  
  Well yes, but it's lucky we don't get a Hellfire missle thru server room windows, luckily they reserve them for accidents with Busloads of school kids or wedding parties. Maybe if we didn't "accidently" blow up bus loads of kids, their relatives might be so angry, or is that they think that's where some WMD's are, in a school bus ?
  
  America reminds me currently, of the end of Rome, petty, self-indulgent, arrogant & too busy living it up, to notice the shit they caused in rest of world ...
  
  America via Climate Change, is a WMD, for the rest of Us, but they will ignore that and persecute the world with NSA bugs ...
  
  2 1 Reply
  1. Friday 20th February 2015 00:32 GMT RealFred
    
    Re: Pathetic
    
    Really, are you that old that you can remember the end of Rome, or are you just relying on someone else's interpretation of what they thought happened.
    
    Perhaps if others didn't fly planes into buildings, try to obliterate other religions and people who don't follow their idea of what an invisible friend is, treat half their population as inferior because they don't have a penis and generally act as dicks to the rest of the world, people might stop mistrusting them
    
    1 2 Reply
    1. Friday 20th February 2015 07:03 GMT JamesTQuirk
      
      Re: Pathetic
      
      RealFred
      
      I agree that people should stop hurting each other, NOT all of ISLAM is ISIL, NOT all of ISIL is Islam some are trapped, I agree it needs dealing with, but with PRECISION, cause getting wrong people is making things worse, NOT better ...
      
      I agree with or condone NONE of these items in list below, being ONLY a humble PC "enthusiast" it is the facts as I see them, Maybe I try to simplify too much, but, ...
      
      .5) CIA train Osama to pester Russians to Death.
      
      1) 1994 - Osama blows up WTC with a truck bomb, kills 100, wounds 300
      
      2) 1994 - Osama (GW BUSH former business colleague) Declares WAR on USA
      
      3) 1994 - 2001 Osama spends time blowing anything he can find with a US Flag on it.
      
      4) 2001 - Shock Horror, he uses the Most Destructive Kamikaze mission yet seen, as a tactic of War. (Sorry about this, "a budget nuke")
      
      5) 2001 - the UK & rest join in, (2003 find me on abc.net.au & others elsewhere, saying it was obvious he was in Pakistan!!)
      
      5.5) again, finishing dad's Fkcuup in Iraq, now it looks much more like "little big horn", on world scale ...
      
      6) Our Younger Generation are being put thru a wringer, for the USA, who remind me of a punch drunk fighter swinging @ air, & defense personal suffer because the people they trust in "line of duty" seemed to be to turning into Kamikaze more & More, IED's ...
      
      Sorry but this WAR, is nuts, Innocent people are dying daily, to increase it all, Israel goes on a building spree in occupied territories, driving the real "Nutters" Crazy, in middle East. While in Ukraine, Sometimes it seems a familiar theme, breaking up Russia, into smaller & smaller, bits, Seeking expansion, "Room to Grow", Building new markets is easy with Capitalism, plenty of people will give you money for a business/idea/iThingy34.234, because they believe the advert, embrace it, after that those who control the money profit, those who don't are cleaned out, or reduced to a industrial Drone.
      
      It seems, as people find this unpopular they have to find more markets to start again, to prop up their failing system, employ CCTV, security, drones etc ...
      
      Strangely when you look @ maps over time, Russian borders including Most of "Ukraine", I think maybe 700 AD until 2005, Some Probs in 1400's & Ottomans took it, Some Squabbles, I think it was Peter the Great in 1700's, who fixed it, the last time there was trouble, over 75-85 years ago ....
      
      How Many Russians died liberating Ukraine from NAZI's, depending on whose figures, anywhere from 7 to 15 million ....
      
      SO it continues, the "theory of constant Expansion", Capitalism, is a artificial construct, like a balloon, blow a balloon up forever & see what happens, I am sad, Because we NEED to focus together, prepare for Climate Change, ALL of us, the whole planet, BUT you should remember these are just my views, it may NOT bear resemblance to your reality, but it don't have to ...
      
      COP20: Global Arctic Methane Emergency #2 (12-5-2014 in Lima Peru)
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQkNxuQ0DoI
      
      Dr Jennifer Francis - Arctic Sea Ice, Jet Stream & Climate Change
      
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAiA-_iQjdU
      
      No I am not that Old that I remember fall of Rome & you are right, it was from reading of others thoughts, listening(lectures) of others thoughts, watching video of others thoughts ...
      
      I don't "feel" much different to when I was 21, only the body's falling apart & I seen/know a lot of crap about a few things ..
      
      1 1 Reply
      1. Friday 20th February 2015 10:10 GMT RealFred
        
        Re: Pathetic
        
        Agenda 21, heard of it? Maybe you need to take off your disaster enhancing glasses and take a look at real data and its interpretation. You also need to look at what's causing the methane bubbling in the Arctic, its plate faults as the plates shift.
        
        There was a 38% chance 2014 was the hottest year on record. From the British met Office
        
        “It is not possible to calculate the global average temperature anomaly with perfect accuracy because the underlying data contain measurement errors and because the measurements do not cover the whole globe. However, it is possible to quantify the accuracy with which we can measure the global temperature and that forms an important part of the creation of the HadCRUT4 data set. The accuracy with which we can measure the global average temperature of 2010 is around one tenth of a degree Celsius. The difference between the median estimates for 1998 and 2010 is around one hundredth of a degree, which is much less than the accuracy with which either value can be calculated. This means that we can’t know for certain – based on this information alone – which was warmer". You need to examin both sides of an argument before you pontificate on it.
        
        1 0 Reply
        
        Saturday 21st February 2015 02:50 GMT JamesTQuirk
        
        Re: Pathetic
        
        It doesn't matter whats causing it @ this point, the current crop of halfwits in charge, nothing will happen about changing things, except for a "select few", because are to busy shovelling money into their & Friends pockets, it is already too late ...
        
        Sorry ....
        
        1 1 Reply
    2. Monday 2nd March 2015 04:42 GMT DrBobMatthews
      
      Re: Pathetic
      
      Wow have you serious problems. The jury with brains is still out on 9/11 as the inconsistencies found by experts all point to a deliberate act internally, the planes did not cause ths building collapse the internal explosions did. You of course mouthing off about everything are obviously an expert or a total dipstick. Somehow I don't see you as an expert, but I do see you as a brainwashed crawling sycophant for the USA. You obviously have a lot in common with your inglorious PM who worships on bended knee at the Washington cabal.
      
      0 0 Reply
      1. Tuesday 3rd March 2015 06:25 GMT JamesTQuirk
        
        Re: Pathetic
        
        I am willing to bet that "squib" charges are pre-laid in HighRise, in congested areas, to stop building going over, causing more "expensive" damage for insurance, instead making them go down in a heap, to centralise "disaster" ...
        
        Since maybe 1946 empire state building plane crash, and probably definitely after 1994 WTC Bombing, this was in their thinking ...
        
        In the later (WTC) the burning jet fuel was probably what the wick needed ...
        
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Thursday 19th February 2015 11:20 GMT Anonymous Coward

Side note for international viewers

Tony Abbott: think trained monkey, think an even more idiotic George Bush...

Back to your regular viewing.

3 0 Reply
1. Friday 20th February 2015 00:41 GMT RealFred
  
  Re: Side note for international viewers
  
  I don't know why you are complaining about Abbott. When labor were in, they tried the same thing because "won't someone think of the children". Labor are as keen to get this legislation passed as they can then point the finger at the LNP and say "we didn't do it, they did", but they won't repeal anything. There are reasons why all forms of the governments in Australia are keen for this to happen, and its nothing to do with terrorism or child abuse. If this is passed, the Greens know that whatever happens, they will get their wish, because they won't be in a position to make a difference and can happily point the finger at everyone else and say "they did it".
  
  Bill Shorten: think I'll bend over and let the Unions have their way with me because thats where I get all my funding from, and I really have no ideas of my own except what the unions tell me.
  
  Back to your Fairfax media and Union scare campaigns
  
  1 3 Reply
  1. Friday 20th February 2015 09:21 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: Side note for international viewers
    
    Alan, Alan Jones, is that you?
    
    2 1 Reply
    1. Friday 20th February 2015 09:53 GMT RealFred
      
      Re: Side note for international viewers
      
      No, never been in Queensland in my life
      
      0 0 Reply
  2. Friday 27th February 2015 04:09 GMT JamesTQuirk
    
    Re: Side note for international viewers
    
    All our governments are helping to funnel money into rich's pockets, we are still dealing with Howards Crap, let alone Labour, to think this is new is strange .....
    
    PS : Fairfax Media, I haven't read a newspaper or watched TV in 20 years, the only reason "papers" appear in any search is online comments, like here, if you don't like comments from "the mass's", maybe you can get Abbott to pass a law saying, only people with $1,000,000.00 in Assets can use it, then everybody making comments, would be so far up their own arse, they would all agree with you ...
    
    At least Spartacus could see his chains, we have little bits of paper keeping us working ..
    
    2 0 Reply
    1. Sunday 1st March 2015 19:52 GMT RealFred
      
      Re: Side note for international viewers
      
      There's none so stupid as those that think they are free.
      
      1 1 Reply
Friday 20th February 2015 01:44 GMT Dagg

Latest Snowden information

According to Snowden the governments already have the whole telecom infrastructure hacked so why should the ISPs be forced to store data that the government has already collected.

Or is this just some BS to attempt to cover-up what they are really doing.

2 0 Reply
1. Friday 20th February 2015 09:20 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: Latest Snowden information
  
  Yep, smells like back-filling time at the tip.
  
  2 0 Reply
Friday 6th March 2015 15:37 GMT Tom Czerniawski

But I am thinking of the children. Frankly, I don't want mine growing up in a surveillance state, the antithesis of free societies.

1 0 Reply
Sunday 29th March 2015 10:15 GMT eatdicks

too late - the law passed because no one did anything except rant on the internets

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