back to article Virgin Media to splurge BEELLIONS on UK network infrastructure expansion

Virgin Media temporarily pushed BT's shares down more than 2 per cent on Friday, after it announced a juicy £3bn cash injection into Britain's internet infrastructure. The cable company, which was bought by John Malone's Liberty Global roughly 18 months ago, promised to bring broadband speeds of 152 Mbps to four million more …

  1. eJ2095

    Wonder

    IF they will get round to increasing there current capacity.. from 160mb down to 1..5mb by 6pm...

    How am i supposed to get my porn fix eh lol....

    I end up with buffer face lol

    1. Laurent Cargill

      Re: Wonder

      Same here, 1-5 mb speeds in the evening since October last year, and they're now saying it'll get fixed by June 2015. And this is after spamming the entire area with mail last year to get people to sign-up, when they blatantly didn't have the capacity.

    2. VinceH
      Coat

      Re: Wonder

      "I end up with buffer face"

      No, that's just your normal face.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wonder

      Why are you watching porn at 6pm? At least try dating before going home for some umm... visual stimulation.

    4. Sanlorenzo

      Re: Wonder

      Wish I was with VM. BT screwed up my 1.8Mbps "broadband" about 2 years ago, when they began "updating" the local infrastructure - I suffered 5 to 10 outages a week until last Christmas, when the outages ceased. However the speed dropped to about 700Kbps where it has stayed. Since 2012 they have been telling me that I will get infinity in a couple of months, so I have been patient. Bad move that. Last visit from a BT engineer improved nothing, but he did say "I don't think you will ever get infinity here, it just won't work over the distance" [I am from the cab]. The cabinet I refer to is about 1.5km up the road. However there is another fully equipped cab about 650m down the same road, but when I told this to BT Openreach, they simply said "service can't be delivered to me from that one". I no longer complain as I am now thoroughly demoralised by BT, who I now consider to be institutionally moronic, and not a company anyone should have to deal with. I'd be happy with your 1.5Mbps from VM but of course they aren't in our street.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Wonder

        "However there is another fully equipped cab about 650m down the same road, but when I told this to BT Openreach, they simply said "service can't be delivered to me from that one". I no longer complain as I am now thoroughly demoralised by BT, who I now consider to be institutionally moronic,"

        650m at £200 a metre*; £130K. Time to pay that back at £40 a month (ignoring the cost of any actual services delivered, just the dig); 270 years.

        That doesn't sound moronic, it sounds like the kind of thing a business has to do to not go bust.

        *from www.aql.com

  2. Tristram Shandy

    Spell Checker

    El Reg needs to use a spell-checker. This article has BEELLIONS yet another article has BEEELLION.

    Or is a BEEELLION bigger than a BEELLION?

    We need consistency and a definition of units.

    1. JamesTQuirk

      Re: Spell Checker

      Perhaps like me, they find it annoys dweebs, that have a "anal-retentive" problem with spelling & Grammer, but not dealing with the facts, so Like me, they throw spelling mistakes in, just to annoy them ...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Spell Checker

        ""anal-retentive" problem with spelling & Grammer, but not dealing with the facts,"

        Spelling and grammar are important for determining exactly what it is that someone means. Used poorly the facts can be hard to determine. That semantic ambiguity is exactly the kind of thing IT professionals try to avoid, in my experience.

        1. JamesTQuirk

          Re: Spell Checker

          "I cdn'uolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg: the phaonmneel pweor of the hmuan mnid. Aoccdrnig to a rseearch taem at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Scuh a cdonition is arppoiatrely cllaed Typoglycemia .

          "Amzanig huh? Yaeh and you awlyas thguoht slpeling was ipmorantt."

          And a translation for MAC & PC users ...

          "I couldn't believe that I could actually understand what I was reading: the phenomenal power of the human mind. According to a research team at Cambridge University, it doesn't matter in what order the letters in a word are, the only important thing is that the first and last letter be in the right place. The rest can be a total mess and you can still read it without a problem. This is because the human mind does not read every letter by itself, but the word as a whole. Such a condition is appropriately called Typoglycemia.

          "Amazing, huh? Yeah and you always thought spelling was important."

          1. Baldie

            Re: Spell Checker

            Atoghluh I nciote taht no canhecs wree tkean wtih Togymplyceia.

            1. JamesTQuirk

              Re: Spell Checker

              I wdn'uolt blveiee taht you wluod ntocie, Srory aobut Plragairsim .....

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typoglycemia

              :)

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Spell Checker@ JamesTQuirk

            " Yeah and you always thought spelling was important"

            Ah, but in the modern age a typo is not just a typo. It's more likely to be a Swypo, where an accurately spelled, but undesired word is inserted in the text due to auto-correct capabilities. And these are usually far more problematic than a mere mis-spelling.

            1. JamesTQuirk

              Re: Spell Checker@ JamesTQuirk

              Yes, well I think that the people who wrote auto-suggest/correct on Phones, Should be BURNT @ STAKE, but maybe thats a little harsh ....

    2. VinceH

      Re: Spell Checker

      I don't know if a single BEEELLION is bigger than a single BEELLION, but I'm pretty damned sure that BEEELLIONS will have a higher value than BEELLION.

      Think about it.

    3. TitterYeNot
      Coat

      Re: Spell Checker

      "We need consistency and a definition of units."

      I'm afraid the inconsistencies here are purely down to sloppy writing. If the authors had consulted a copy of the readily available 'Würdminger's Apochryphal Lexicography', they would have found the following widely accepted definitions:-

      BEEELLION - The natural number million transposed from the 1960's to the present day, complete with flares, bad teeth and gold medallion.

      BEELLION - Welsh chimera, has the appearance of a flying lion, but has a sting worse than surprise buttsex...

    4. streaky

      Re: Spell Checker

      You're supposed to use Tips and corrections else some reg hack will come along and shout at you for mouthing off in the comments - true story ;)

  3. Richy Freeway

    Have they released any information on WHERE they're going to be expanding? Our business is stuck with 8Mbit ADSL and no sign of Infinity making it onto our industrial estate, despite all the residential properties surrounding us having it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "no sign of Infinity making it onto our industrial estate, despite all the residential properties surrounding us having it."

      Isn't it a domestic/consumer service - why would it be installed on an industrial estate?

      1. Turvy

        Nope - it's available from BT Business too..... I have Infinity 2 with them....

    2. batfastad

      Agree with this.

      Worked at a small business on a business park for a number of years and being on the ar$e end of town the ADSL was terrible. All the residential cabinets along the main road had been deployed in the first wave of FTTC rollout. But absolutely no effort to provide anything more than ADSL to businesses on the business park. The only option was leased line/ethernet connections which started off at £1k+ per month, they just didn't have the budget for that.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        May they should not have setup in a "small business on a business park for a number of years and being on the ar$e end of town the ADSL was terrible" and done some planning before hand. I once setup shop boat building atop Snowdon, the rivers to the sea didn't have the capacity to float us down stream and the local civil construction companies wouldn't invest in getting larger rivers to us, beleive it or not, we had to move to where the rivers were larger.

  4. Nigel Whitfield.

    So far ...

    ... all the reports of this that I've read have talked about how they're expanding the cable network, bringing them within reach of extra homes (maybe they'll decide they can afford the 20 foot of cable from my front garden into the house now...).

    However, none of them has mentioned any corresponding investment in the core network. It would be good to assume that that will naturally follow, but I'm not sure we live in such an ideal world as that.

    Are they really more interested in getting more people to pay for the cable TV services, and the fact that they'll be linked to the network for internet happens to be a handy side-effect for which they can garner much publicity?

    I'd have been more impressed if there was detailed information eg "80% of investment on network expansion, and 20% on core upgrades"

    1. Terry Barnes

      Re: So far ...

      Core network investment should be ongoing, unremarkable, part of the business's normal Opex. I'd not expect it to be remarked on separately unless this investment is expected to materially change the average cost of serving a user.

  5. Elmer Phud

    "It also claimed that its private network investment would create 6,000 jobs over the next five years and boost the UK's economy by £8bn."

    (Victor Meldrew moment)

    If, that is, they can stop half the dosh disappearing to HSBC Switzerland.

  6. Tim 11

    Good news

    for private companies to start digging up roads and putting down their own TV cables 25 years ago was a very brave thing to do. After a lot of long-term losses and consolidation, the fact that it's still privately owned, and the new owner thinks it's a good idea to dig up more roads and put down more cables, is basically a vindication of the original concept.

    Cable TV and internet has served me well over the past 25 years and I'm pleased that it's turned out to be commercially viable and worthy of more investment.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good news

      "new owner thinks it's a good idea to dig up more roads and put down more cables, is basically a vindication of the original concept."

      I don't know that the economics read that way. All of the original cable companies went bust - every single one. Their assets got bought in fire sales by other companies that also went bust and a period of amalgamation followed. All of the assets were then bought by the company that now goes by the name of Virgin who have managed to run the service profitably for the last handful of years.

      What that shows me is that up until now, you could only make money out of this if you avoided paying for the installation of your network.

      If Virgin have solved this economic problem, that's awesome news.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good news or more likely a chimera

        "If Virgin have solved this economic problem, that's awesome news."

        That's a big "if" you have there, sir! Here at Cynic Towers, it is assumed that this is purely to increase the future value of the business since they're hoping to sell it to Vodafone. So the Cable Cowboy can make this commitment, knowing that he won't have to honour it. If the sale happens with a new and now much higher valuation (to Voda or anybody else), the new owner will be even more debt addled, and won't consider themselves bound by the previous owner's rash promises. A few infill extensions will occur, but the idea of a £3bn roll out? At 50% penetration on the four million homes they hope to pass that's around £1,500 per household - distribute that for those properties that will be more expensive to serve and you can see that it wouldn't be economic for a good chunk of the 4m homes they talk of.

        You're quite right about the economic history of cable, and it is interesting to note that the same applied to railways, to the M6 Toll (still blissfully traffic free for the rich or spendthrift), and to Eurotunnel. Infrastructure is only investable at very high customer densities, and where geography and alternative solutions are limited, and that's why we have so few forms of genuinely universal infrastructure, and why bumpkin broadband is only going to happen slowly and with huge subsidies.

        In this case we're talking about extending cable to the less optimal urban peasants (if it really made money they'd have done it first), so if this happens as claimed I'll be amazed. Gormless Dave is obviously impressed, but let's be honest, it doesn't take much, does it?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good news or more likely a chimera

          "At 50% penetration on the four million homes they hope to pass that's around £1,500 per household - distribute that for those properties that will be more expensive to serve and you can see that it wouldn't be economic for a good chunk of the 4m homes they talk of."

          25% is considered pretty good in the industry, so you'd be looking at more like £3K per household, versus the £2k a household other suppliers consider the eventual break even point. Maybe the 'cable my street' website is intended to give a roll-out targeted on demand and get closer to 50%?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good news or more likely a chimera

          "You're quite right about the economic history of cable, and it is interesting to note that the same applied to railways, to the M6 Toll (still blissfully traffic free for the rich or spendthrift), and to Eurotunnel."

          Salesman - Build it and they'll come.

          Engineer - Build it and it will break.

          Accountant - Build it and you'll go bust.

      2. hplasm
        FAIL

        Re: Good news

        Well, Virgin never bought any of it, and they don't own it now if they did...

    2. Trigonoceps occipitalis

      Re: Good news

      We should have adopted the Stockholm approach. Every company/organization who dug up a road had to install a cable duct. Not sure who paid.

  7. PCS

    Splurging all that money on infrastructure and yet Virgin have sold all of their non-cable customers to TalkTalk.

  8. Ashton Black

    Expanding, not extending.

    Unfortunately, for me anyway, they won't be coming anywhere near out village. It appears, that they are concentrating on urban areas. *shrug* So it goes. Privately owned businesses will always choose the more profitable areas, first and foremost.

    *sigh* Back to my 1.7Mb ADSL. (On a good day)

  9. Christopher Lane

    Innovating...

    ...with IPv6 wouldn't go a miss either.

    1. Skoorb

      Re: Innovating...

      IPv6 is in the works and rollout should commence this year - see Virgin Media's talk at an IET conference last year at http://tv.theiet.org/channels/news/40805.cfm or the slides only at http://www.ipv6.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/VM-IPv6-council-presentation.pdf.

      Details from other major providers, like BT, Sky and Janet are at http://www.ipv6.org.uk/2014/11/20/ipv6-council-meeting-oct2014/.

  10. Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse
    Meh

    Hopefully they'll fix it...

    So that the bandwidth that I'm supposedly paying for actually is available between 8 - 10 am and 6 - 9pm.

    For all the crowing, VM are still pretty shit in terms of consistent bandwidth, but to be fair, very reliable in terms of service availability.

    1. Badvok

      Re: Hopefully they'll fix it...

      "So that the bandwidth that I'm supposedly paying for actually is available"

      It is, you are getting EXACTLY what you are paying for. If you want more bandwidth (I hate that term) you simply need to pay for it.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Maybe there's more to the name

    I talked to one of thier network planners about a fill-in where I live. Part of our bit would need a b cab, but, she said when the roll out the fiber, it wouldn't be needed. That was 9 month ago, maybe there's a clue to the word light in project lightning. Oh, we weren't viable, even though we offered to put in duct ourselves!

  12. Andy The Hat Silver badge

    Optional

    Shove a gigabit connection into a few properties and multi-hundred megabit into a few thousand that are easy to do and imagine what that does to your 'average connection speed'! Relatively little outlay, marketing can have a field day and the average punter can get the same old crap down a massively contended line.

    I've currently got 2.5Mb/s and "they" keep offering me a deal on fibre, I keep explaining that my overhead string seems to regularly dry out, the plastic cup at the end is cracked so leaking data and it's unlikely to have ye olde shouty-cup-to-fibre-adapter ... "Yes, but I can assure you that you *can* get fibre Sir ... We will have to send an engineer to check though ..." Doh!

  13. Warm Braw

    Won't happen here - and their cable is within spitting distance

    The block of flats where I live was build in a cable franchise area, but several years before the cable layers were due to pass the doors. Consequently, we had to seek a waiver from the franchise holder (which I think was United Artists in those days, long before the Virgin rebranding) to install a communal satellite TV system (they could actually have prevented us from doing so if they wanted) to cover the intervening period.

    Of course, when the cable layers came, they passed by without stopping - as the building was marked as having a waiver, it was considered uneconomic to actually connect it up.

    When analogue satellite broadcasting was being switched off, we did approach them again, but by that stage there was an absolute embargo on extending their cable network, even by the few feet necessary.

    And having rewired for digital satellite, we would not now see the need to do it again, even if Virgin offered, especially since there's FTTC available.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Any chance of Virgin Media spending a few quid upgrading their Youtube proxy caches? No, thought not!

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    And yet...

    ...their upload speeds are a total joke. So much for "superfast"

    1. Rol

      Re: And yet...

      Purposefully so. You don't think Virgin is going to let their customers run a server farm on the back of a residentially charged line.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And yet...

        No, but it'd be nice if a 20MB e-mail didn't upload at the whopping 70KB/s BT think is an appropriate upspeed. Not sure if ADSL works this way - but I'd much rather have 8Mb/s shared between up and down than 8Mb/s down, 450Kb/s up.

        1. Rol

          Re: And yet...

          Yeah, that is pretty poor. Virgin are slightly better with about a ten to one ratio between down and up.

          I supposedly have a 20Mbit line that normally runs at about 2MByte down and 150KByte up.

  16. mark jacobs
    WTF?

    Honestly?

    I left Virgin last year, when my 5th "megahub" blew up on me (completely dead). These substandard devices, cheaply made in the far east, always seemed to go wrong on me, so I moved to Plus Net. Not only did I get consistently fast speeds (downloads 3 to 3.5 MBytes per second, 1 to 2 MBytes per second uploads) throughout the day, evening and night, but their support was more personal and immediate. I'd move to them or One 2 One, and stick a finger up to Branson and his drug-fuelled island of depravity that he owns!

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Priorities

    How about some focus on getting ipv6 rolled out, as a major player in the UK they are keeping everyone in the dark ages and the candle is about to burn out.

    Innovative company, really ..

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wholesale...

    I'm personally in an area where the cabinet isn't upgraded and IS in a VM area for fibre. As BT Wholesale fibre is sold to other ISP's (including Sky) it limits my options. They get it on wholesale access.

    If VM manage to fibre up the whole area and increase speeds, why can't they then be forced to open that wholesale to Sky etc? It would make it a completely level field for competition.

    We get this already through government projects (N3, PSN) where access is provided by the cheapest operators so I use BT in one office but Virgin in another - all delivered over the same contracts.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wholesale...

      "If VM manage to fibre up the whole area and increase speeds, why can't they then be forced to open that wholesale to Sky etc? It would make it a completely level field for competition."

      I can see why some customers would want this, but given that it's VM's asset, paid for with the cash of private investors, why should they have to open up to competitors? You might feel miffed if the local council put a parking meter on your drive, but its the same concept.

      1. chris 17 Silver badge

        Re: Wholesale...

        @ Ledswinger

        its not the same concept. there are loads of people in VM's patch that are ADSl customers on poor speeds. i'd rather have sky broadband over VM's net than just VM. I'd guess there are a lot of customers like me and it would encourage greater usage of VM's infrastructure earning VM more money from it. OpenReach is earning for every ADSL line (line rental), VM could be earning too if they opened their net up for high speed BB to competitors. The issue is VM are earning too much from line rental that costs them sod all (they don't have the same network costs per line nut this may be regulated) & competitors would expect a healthy discount on that. VM are "cutting their nose to spite their face" on this.

        The closest concept of VM allowing competitors on their net is like Virgin Mobile operating as an MVNO on O2's mobile phone network.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Wholesale...

          "'d guess there are a lot of customers like me and it would encourage greater usage of VM's infrastructure earning VM more money from it. OpenReach is earning for every ADSL line (line rental),"

          Margins are tiny. I expect that only customers taking the most expensive packages actually turn a profit for VM. If they just wholesaled the last mile at a price that another ISP would want to pay, they'd lose money.

          VM haven't set their business up to be wholesaled either, so the "cost plus x%" regime that Openreach operate under wouldn't be easy to apply. Do you want the real cost, or an average cost for that town, that county or the whole country? How much would it cost to upgrade the ordering, billing and trouble ticket systems to handle wholesaling? How would you isolate the traffic and manage flows to ensure your own customers don't suffer because of a.n.other ISP's customers downloading 'Linux distros' 24/7?

          It seems like a lot of money and effort to enable other people to take your customers from you.

          It's unattractive for other ISPs because there'd only be a tiny gap between VM's wholesale cost and their retail price to customers for the new ISP to set a price and make any kind of profit. Openreach is subject to a regulation test called 'margin squeeze' where there has to be enough difference between the Openreach wholesale cost and the BT Retail ISP price that other people can sell stuff using Openreach connections and make money. VM wouldn't be subject to that test because they're not regulated in the same fashion.

        2. hplasm
          Facepalm

          Re: Wholesale...

          Virgin ADSL runs over BT tails, otherwise it would be VM Cable...

          It's called 'offnet' for a reason.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Wholesale...@Chris 17

          "its not the same concept"

          Depend how far you want to stretch my analogy. I only wished to make the point that VM are the legal owner of their infrastructure, and you apparently wish to force the disaggregation of their value chain because of your unhappiness with alternative companies' offers via Openreach.

          In the parking meter on the drive example, its a very good analogy, because somebody else (the council) wishes to open up better use of your asset (your driveway) for the common benefit (of others suffering from a lack of on street parking), and if you keep the parking charges they can argue that you'll be better off, despite you not necessarily consenting to this socialisation of your property.

          BT's position is different because they have a near 100% coverage, their infrastructure was gifted to BT plc by the state for a relatively modest privatisation value, and because in the decades long build out of the telecoms network, the GPO enjoyed all manner of advantages in building a national network that wouldn't be available to private companies.

          No sane individual can argue that VM should be forced to sell their capacity on wholesale markets if they don't want to, and the only argument is therefore whether BT should in fact be subject to LLU. I think on balance it should, but that doesn't make any case for VM being subject to the same rules.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wholesale...

      "If VM manage to fibre up the whole area and increase speeds, why can't they then be forced to open that wholesale to Sky etc?"

      Because it would very much reduce their incentive to do the work in the first place.

  19. batfastad
    Coat

    Peppa

    In the immortal words of Mr Bull... "We're digging up the road!"

    An in-joke for Peppa Pig afficionados/sufferers there. Please don't hate me.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    under investment in core and local network

    We suffered with Virgin's terrible service and like others that have already posted, were repeatedly told that fixing the service that was supposed to 150meg and actually crawled along at 1-2meg would take another 9 months... having already had no usable service for 6 months. The jitter on Virgin's service was also terrible - making it impossible to hold conversations by VOIP or using a SIP service.

    We won't ever go back to Virgin - their customer services / faults team are misleading at best and I'd rather have 60meg BT infinity that hasn't missed a beat in 2 years than Virgin's 150 meg service that costs more but can't ever be relied on to be working when you need it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: under investment in core and local network

      "I'd rather have 60meg BT infinity that hasn't missed a beat in 2 years"

      Pray that it doesn't. Currently on day 11 offline, the fix date has slipped 3 times so far. Customer services are a joy, despite a known issue at the exchange, the poor home hub has been restarted so many times it's probably going to give up before BT fix the line. But I do get to enjoy conversations such as:

      Me: "So when will it be fixed?"

      BT: "They're working on it now"

      Me: "So can you contact their dept/them for an update?"

      BT: "They don't work weekends"

      Me: "So by now... you meant?"

      BT: "I'll arrange a call back Monday from a technical supervisor"

      Me: "Yeeah, you do that"

      They still have a few hours left. On the positive side, I did get to setup a Pi as a 3G router, that was fun (don't tell EE).

  21. a_mu

    more better in the future

    Well

    what do we expect,

    they have been promising for 18 months to upgrade our line for free , every time I check its 6 months in the future,

    One day may be,

    but then it will be throttled back / overloaded at peek times anyway,

    peek being any time I want to use the thing !

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    New area customers will learn quickly

    Virgin will put 3 billion quid in to their network and Youtube will still buffer for it's customers.

    This cash injection won't solve existing customers peak time speed issues at all as it will be spent on connecting new areas. Excitement for newly connected customers until they learn what running nodes too hot means.

  23. Ossi

    Too late

    I live in a part of London with high density expensive new housing. It sounds like an ISP's delight. However, all those brand new blocks had direct (and very long) lines to the exchange. No cabinet meant no FTTC. Broadband speeds were pathetic. Low hanging fruit for a company like Virgin, which had adjacent networks, doubly so when you consider they closed down an analogue network here, so presumably still have some infrastructure.

    So what did they do with an area full of well-off people crushed together in a small space and desperate for decent broadband and with no effective competition? I'll tell you what - nothing. Other operators have moved in now and it's too late - the freeholders wouldn't let them in the building now. Idiots.

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