back to article Apple drives itself round bend: Pities the fool who inks deal with carmakers – source

Hours after rumours surfaced suggesting that Apple was working on an "automotive product" with established carmakers – new gossip apparently reveals that Cupertino will go it alone with a self-driving electric vehicle. The Tim Cook-run firm is said to be discussing its plans with eggheads at car manufacturers, but purely – it …

  1. Mark 85

    Dark secrets in Cupertino...

    I wonder if this just isn't a way to create lots of patents... and then sue the hell out of anyone for using them.

    1. Steve I

      Re: Dark secrets in Cupertino...

      You know, it really isn't that easy to create lots of patents and then sue people for using them.

      At the bare minimum, you have to invest a new best way to do something. If it isn't the best way, then other people will just do it differently and not infringe your patent.

      1. Mark 85

        Re: Dark secrets in Cupertino...

        Well.. they have issues with Tesla (over hiring practices) and Google (over a lot of things). It's possible they'll actually build and market it. Probably build in China and charge a premium because of the Apple logo. It just seems strange that they're jumping into this.

        1. SuccessCase

          Re: Dark secrets in Cupertino...

          "It just seems strange that they're jumping into this."

          It's bold, but it doesn't seem strange at all. Apple made greater revenue last quarter than any other company in history (indeed they more revenue last quarter due to price fluctuations in the dollar, than Google made revenue last quarter full stop). Other world record revenue quarters have been held by companies from only a handful of other sectors; Oil, automotive and finance.

          There is no other foreseeable tech product that will bring the scale of revenues Apple are realising with the iPhone. Watches certainly won't do it.

          Automotive is undergoing a revolution where car production - as advanced as it is - has become commoditised. For years, the Ford Focus has been as good or a better vehicle than the Volkswagen Golf and the differences between manufacturers has been reducing, but the Ford brand has meant they aren't able to realise the Margin Volkswagen can. Now most of the innovation in automotive is focused on computing and navigation. Apple have so much cash-piling up they don't know what to do with it. They like to control the user experience top to bottom. With physical car production commoditised, they can do that, in a similar way to the way they control the experience on the Mac top to bottom.

          So huge revenues: check

          Capacity to control the experience top to bottom: check

          Brand margin: check

          Huge cash reserves to be able to move into an entirely new sector: check

          To me it's obvious why they are jumping into this.

      2. John Tserkezis

        Re: Dark secrets in Cupertino...

        "You know, it really isn't that easy to create lots of patents and then sue people for using them."

        Yes, it's easier to steal them and call them off as your own.

        1. frank ly

          Re: Dark secrets in Cupertino...

          Wheels have very rounded corners.

          1. Montreal Sean

            Re: Dark secrets in Cupertino...

            They also have air...I see more lawsuits ahead.

            1. Preston Munchensonton
              Coat

              Re: Dark secrets in Cupertino...

              So, is it just a matter of time before a crash of the electric iCar will produce accusations of "You're holding the steering wheel wrong"?

        2. Steve I

          Re: Dark secrets in Cupertino...

          So, umm, let's follow your logic here: Apple are building a car, so they can steal patents, and then sue people for infringing those patents.

          Sorry - I missed something. Why do they need to build the car?

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh dear...

    "They don't appear to want a lot of help from carmakers,"

    cue lots of posts about :-

    Thickness

    Colour

    Cloud

    RDF

    etc.

    Personally, if they are going it alone then I think this may turn out to be a failure (another newton?)

    1. GitMeMyShootinIrons

      Re: Oh dear...

      Don't forget corners. It's gotta have corners!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Oh dear...

        It'll be fine on American roads without them ...

    2. Tom 35

      Re: Oh dear...

      No, none of the car makers would give them 30%.

  3. John Tserkezis

    But you are only allowed to buy things from one shop.

    Driver: iCar, take me to the nearest laptop store.

    iCar: Proceeding to your nearest Apple Shop, now.

    Driver: iCar, take me to the nearest grocery store.

    iCar: Proceeding to your nearest Apple Shop, now.

    Driver: Er, no, I want a grocery store, I'm done with the Apple Shop.

    iCar: We are already parked outside the Apple Shop.

    Driver: Go to hell you piece of crap!

    iCar: We are already parked outside the Apple Shop.

    1. LINCARD1000
      Coffee/keyboard

      Re: But you are only allowed to buy things from one shop.

      Pure gold.

      Thank you for the real life "laugh out loud" moment this morning :-)

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "They don't appear to want a lot of help from carmakers"

    Well, they are going to find it hard to build anything without them. They will definitely need auto-engineers and automotive components manufacturers. The first couple they could probably build in a lockup in California with the help of a copy of the Halfords kit-car book. But scale production, meeting construction regulations/law....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      They are hiring engineers from the automotive world, and could make deals with (or purchase) components makers. The quote was that they don't want a lot of help from CARMAKERS, i.e. Ford, GM, etc. not that they can go it alone and don't need engineers or parts.

      Keep in mind an electric car shares a minority of parts with standard vehicles. They have no engine, drivetrain or transmission. No fuel injection, no exhaust, no catalytic converter, no brakes (replaced by regenerative brakes) They will still need tires, wipers, suspension, etc. and of course the interior, but would have to design a lot of the parts themselves.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Components? Wouldn't they just CNC mill it out of a solid billet of Al ?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Just print it

          Just use a 3D printer - you can make anything on a 3D printer, at least according to the propaganda, er, news.

      2. ckm5

        80% of parts on electric cars have commonality with traditional cars

        Sorry, but the above post is written by someone who knows little about cars, apparently.

        80% of all parts on electric cars have commonality with traditional cars. The only things that are really different are the engine & fuel storage. Pretty much everything else is the same. Yes, including the drive train. You still need drive shafts, bearings, differentials, gears, hubs, even gearboxes (even if they are only one speed). Here's a Tesla Model-S rear-end for reference: http://d2ojs0xoob7fg0.cloudfront.net/evtv-word-press/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/model-s-motor.jpg

        Also, regenerative breaking doesn't do away with brakes, all electric cars have brakes. Regenerative braking is the electric car equivalent of engine braking, except that instead of compressing air, your are turning the drive motor in reverse, making it a generator. The 'engine braking' effect is much greater than in traditional cars, but in no way does it replace actual brakes.

        Bottom line is that most automotive industry supplies can easily supply most of the components for an electric car, particularly since most traditional car companies make their engines in house, so there are no 3rd party suppliers for that specific component. The other major large parts that are typically outsourced & missing on a electric car are the gas tank & exhaust..... Otherwise it's pretty much all the same.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: 80% of parts on electric cars have commonality with traditional cars

          That's true for a regular car maker building a hybrid version of a regular car - especially those "hybrids" that are just built for a tax break.

          If you were to build a car purely around it being an electric car first, even with a limited top speed, limited range, limited seats.

          Laptops share a lot of components with a desktop, just add a screen hinged keyboard and battery to the same motherboard - an iPhone doesn't

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 80% of parts on electric cars have commonality with traditional cars

            Tesla Model S is not a hybrid.

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: 80% of parts on electric cars have commonality with traditional cars

              But it is just a luxury BMW/Audi/Porsche saloon that just happens to be electric.

              I'm assuming Apple aren't planning to just build a Nissan leaf but something a little more "think different"

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 80% of parts on electric cars have commonality with traditional cars

            Why in the world would you need a driveshaft and differential on an electric car? Four motors, one at each wheel, would work better than a single large motor that provides power to a traditional drivetrain. I can't speak to the cost, but drivetrain components are heavy and reduced weight means greater efficiency - Apple is not going to worry about the cost being higher due to four motors if makes for a better car!

            It would also increase reliability, as losing one motor is a problem when it is your only motor, but losing one out of four isn't even a problem worthy of scheduling the next available appointment, rather than waiting until it is convenient to schedule the service.

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: 80% of parts on electric cars have commonality with traditional cars

              On a high performance car like the Tesla the motors are heavy and expensive.

              Putting them in the wheels would be tricky, you don't want unecessary unsprung weight. Formula 1 cars (and 2CVs) even have the brakes mounted on the "axle" to reduce the weight of the bit bouncing up and down on the road.

              So you need to mount two motors back-back in the middle each connected to a half shaft. But then you need careful control that you don't put even slightly more speed to one wheel than the other (torque steer), except when cornering when you DO need to put more speed to one than the other. It's easier to just mount a single motor to a regular differential.

              If you want AWD then two motors back-back in the middle and sets of axles and diffs makes sense. Especially since AWD transmissions already have a central differential anyway.

              If you want super go anywhere low speed AWD or just a low speed golf-buggy then a motor per wheel does have advantages.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: 80% of parts on electric cars have commonality with traditional cars

                If cheap fans in computers can have rpm sensors, surely one can imagine it is not difficult for a motor (and the wheel, to detect slippage) to be able to tell how fast it is turning and feed that information back to a CPU that dynamically adjusts the power to each wheel. Torque steer should not be an issue.

                You're correct about not wanting the motors in the wheel, but they can be next to it and the differential can be dispensed with. The fewer parts that are critical to the operation of the car, the better.

  5. Michael Habel
    FAIL

    Why wont they just stick to what they're (supposedly good at..), and just give us a new Apple TV IV, that One can... With an additional purchase of a reassuringly expensive Joy Pad... Play some Games on?

    Do they feel that threatened by Google?

    I mean I can see them doing this, as its about the "Tech", but, with Apple its about selling very expensive overpriced tat.

    1. VinceH
      Trollface

      "Why wont they just stick to what they're (supposedly good at..)"

      I think that's what they are aiming to do. They'll design a car and eventually get it to market, and it'll use a lot of technologies that you'd expect in a car and which have (obviously) already been invented. They'll add a few Applisms to the design, and ensure they get the design patents on those.

      Then they'll sue (say) BMW for infringing on their design patents, and BMW will counter-sue because Apple are using some real patented tech of theirs without paying up.

      That is what Apple are supposed to be good at, isn't it?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This should be fun.

    Whenever there's been a problem with an Apple device its always been due to the user holding it wrong, or its upside down, or its the non-Apple device you're connecting to. If in doubt Apple just stays quiet on the forums and denies anything is wrong at all.

    Lets see how they do when they have an accident and somebody gets hurt. Staying stum won't work then.

    Apple may just be so arrogant that they think they can build a self driving car with no input from car makers. Lets face it, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Ford, GM, Toyota, Fiat, Honda are all muppets with no idea what they are doing or any idea how to improve or make a better product.

    Well I suppose its one way to get rid of the pile of cash they are sitting on.

  7. beast666

    I, for one, welcome our Apple self driving overlords...

    (Except if it uses Apple Maps.)

  8. Chris G

    iMiniVan

    Great! a mini van for the price of a Bentley.

    Although, since Appoo actually build things, unlike the Googoomobile the Appyvan could have some really neat stuff built into it with a user friendly Fisher Price UI and a GPS linked Siri.

    I hope it has an accelerometer built into the screen so that if you roll it the view will remain correctly oriented to your position inside.

  9. MontaraMike

    Terrible Photoshop LOL

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    'Apple wants to gather as much information as possible about how to build a self-driving car from experts'

    They would be the ones with four rings on the bonnet, they seem to feel that the car can drive itself while they make that important call/facebook update/whatsapp message....

    YMMV of course

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ah! Audi

      The new BMW perhaps?

      you know the cars where the driver think that they own the road and everyone should just get out of their way.

      Cue much flashing of lights while in a stream pf rush hour traffic on the M25. Lane 3/4 is not just a passing lane for most of the day but a TT driver just wanted to get ahead of me despite the traffic density being such that he'd only get one car further along the cue.

      If crapple were to develop a car then one would hope that Siri would tell the driver to stop being a bigger pratt(for driving a car with the Apple logo on it) than thay already are and slow down.

      Nah, won't happen.

      1. D@v3

        Ah! Audi

        Audi - Drive like they are the only ones on their roads

        BMW - Drive like they own the roads, and are disgusted to find any commoners using them and getting in their way

  11. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

    Wait, what?

    What does Mr. T have to do with any of this?

    And is this going to happen to all future Reg Apple articles?

    1. returnmyjedi

      Re: Wait, what?

      I take every El Reg article and headline with a glass of milk.

  12. returnmyjedi

    Whilst I have little doubt in the skills and talents of Apple's engineers who are amongst the most talented on this ere bkue marble (antennagate and the eMac being amongst their few missteps) I don't foresee a vehicle crafted by their designers to be somewhere I'd want to spend any time. OSX and iOS resemble a heated battle between a Tipp Ex and Crayola factory, and the Apple Stores and so sterile it's as if all of the furniture and employees are autoclaved on a daily basis.

    Furthermore the arrogance of Apple (if the sources are putting to be true) in thinking they can better vehicle manufacturers has an air of Shakespearean tragedy about it. They may have struck lucky with the iPhone, but folks' relationship with the car is far more emotional than it is with a mobile phone and I'm not sure that tech companies such as Apple and Google grasp that.

    1. Richard Taylor 2
      FAIL

      Well you know what thy way - remarkably the harder you practice, the luckier you get. The iPod/iPhone/iPad were not just 'lucky' even if your blinkers are set to straight ahead.

  13. Gordon 10

    If apple were smart

    I think they could go it alone with the right team:

    http://www.gordonmurraydesign.com/GMD/Gordon_Murray_Design.html

    Hey presto instant iCar.

    1. Havin_it
      Trollface

      Re: If apple were smart

      Never mind that, how did he/you survive being shot out of an airlock by James Bond?

  14. SQL God

    Just Like and IPhone

    I pity the poor fool who would buy an Apple car. Three software upgrades into the life of the car and Apple will drop support. The switch between ICar4 and ICar5 would render your charging cable obsolete and instead of buying a new charger cable with the correct plugs for $50, you'll have to shell out $500 to Apple for one with a ID chip that recognizes Apples Bait-and-Switch pin change technology.

    When Car-OS XI is released, it will gobble up the memory you had previously used to store data for your IMaps driving assistant. And oh yeah, I forgot... When the battery wears out, you'll just have to buy a new car.

    IS Apple the "Force" or simply Darth Vader in a white suit?

  15. Rainer

    Mini Van makes sense

    They are popular in China - even more so for high-end customers (who often pay a driver).

    All the nay-sayers remind me of the Blackberry "Amateur-hour is over"-guys.

    Or the Motorola CEO who called the iPhone "the west coast phone", because he didn't even want to use the name.

    Or the "600 Dollars and it doesn't even have a keyboard"-CEO we all love to laugh about.

    The reason why Apple is still alive and at the top is that even though they believe (probably almost in a religious sense) that their product is the best, they don't deny the fact that a better one can come around and they better be the one bringing it to market - even if it kills a product of their own in the long run.

    In this case, Apple can go were no one else can go because they have nothing to lose (except a couple of billion dollars maybe), no product to cannibalize, no important partner they could alienate.

    Just a lot of (rather loyal) users like me who think that it's high time that someone look at the "car-problem" with a pair of fresh eyes, without a vested interest and without a "we've always done it that way"-line of thinking. Because that "horseless carriage"-type of problem is what seems to plague current e-cars from "traditional" manufacturers.

    If Apple can come-up with something new, I'll at least have a look at it when it can be bought.

    And if you hate Apple products, you don't have to buy them. But don't transfer that hate to the buyers either. That's just not classy.

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Mini Van makes sense

      An "electric smart" would be my guess.

      For the iPhone market sector that live in cities what's the point in the top-gear car specs?

      What differentiates your Toyota little cute city car from the Honda little cute city car is the iPod dock not the torque curve roll off above 5000rpm or power slides.

      If Apple built an electric Smart Car with the same level of Apple quality and design features as a Macbook I can see a market.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Design by Ive

    Judging by the insipid iPhone and truly awful Watch, the styling should be pretty terrible.

  17. southen bastard

    IMaps only cover walled garden

    With Apples walled garden their would be limitations on were you could go,

    amagin jail braking your icar, you could install google maps and discover places out side the usa,

    lots of people crashing into the wall trying to escape, incompatable hardware could be any road not certified with an apple ID.

    with cars talking to each other being the up and coming thing , apple would do it differently from everybody else , effectivitly isolating these icars making the invisible ( untill they hit you)

  18. Alan Denman

    Brilliant if driven by Siri

    Just think,

    we go to work on a 'cloudy' day and get all the non cloudy days off work.

    Magic.

  19. graeme leggett Silver badge

    Time will tell

    When we see if anything does come out of it and there is actual hardware in the hands of reviewers.

    "That means we have to hand it over to our tame racing driver. Some say......"

  20. Howard Hanek

    Tim Cook's Obsession

    Ever since seeing the original "Total Recall" Mr. Cook has long wanted to reprise the role of Robert Picardo as the voice of "Johnnycab". He envisions a world filled with "Applecabs" despite the fact that the audience applauded when Arnold ripped his head off.

  21. ItsNotMe
    Devil

    And when YOU get into an accident with one...because of a software or design fault...

    ...you will simply be told by Apple's legal department...You were driving it wrong.

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