back to article Trans-Pacific trade treaty close to signoff says USA

The US Trade Representative Michael Froman has tried to reassure the country's lawmakers that the interminable negotiations over the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) will conclude during 2015. However, as chief negotiators meet in New York with the hope of securing signatures by the middle of March, there's speculation that …

  1. Steven Roper
    Flame

    Any government that signs the TPP is comitting treason against its nation and its people

    I've long maintained that Tony Abbott and his cronies should be charged with high treason if they sign this TPP as it stands. The provision that foreign corporations are allowed to sue a democratically elected government for passing laws they don't like, is nothing less than blatantly selling our nation's sovereignty to foreign powers. Which is an act that, throughout recorded history, has been globally regarded as treason.

    1. LaeMing

      Re: Any government that signs the TPP is comitting treason against its nation and its people

      Beat me to it.

      I wonder if the TPP can be twisted so the Austraian People can sue their own government.

      1. Thorne

        Re: Any government that signs the TPP is comitting treason against its nation and its people

        "I wonder if the TPP can be twisted so the Austraian People can sue their own government."

        Well yes but as the elected representatives of the Australian people the compo will go to the government......

        1. cs94njw

          Re: Any government that signs the TPP is comitting treason against its nation and its people

          No no - every member of Australia joins a company, and sues the Government. The Government pays the compensation back to the company, and so the people get the money.

          Of course, the Government may then raise taxes to pay for it... which of course the people company will need to sue the Government again...

  2. Mark 85

    Given all the secrecy and now the trade-offs being considered, I'm wondering if US citizens can sue the US government over this. It's supposed to be a trading treaty for all signees and thus fair and equitable to all. Not just us and Japan. To alienate the rest of the signees is just plain stupid, stupid, stupid....

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Holmes

      We have always traded with Oceania

      a trading treaty for all signees and thus fair and equitable to all

      These kind of treaties are amazingly easy to set up and generally just say "repeal subsidies and import duties, let's have some free trade here".

      The one where special interests are promised taxpayer money, protectionist rules are haggled over and legal weapons of mass destruction are handed out naturally take some time. They also need to be discussed in secrecy and leakers best be considered terrorists.

  3. Medixstiff

    With the Snowden leaks, the way the MPIAA and RIAA have been going and US companies willingness to stifle innovation by suing other companies for the dumbest patents that should never have been given, I can only assume that politicians in other countries are inept beyond belief or accepting bribes, because no-one in their right minds would sign the TPP treaty.

  4. dan1980

    I hold no hope for this or anything else. It will pass. Not only will it pass, the worst parts of it will pass either unaltered or intensified and we will end up worse off in nearly every possible way.

    We will be more vulnerable to powerful US corporations, both as a nation and as individuals; we will end up paying more for medication - exactly as we did after the US-AUS FTA was signed during the Howard era; our consumer protection laws will be neutered where they conflict with US profits and we will slide ever further towards preferencing unfettered corporate greed over the rights of consumers, adopting much that is so wrong with the US and their belief that profit is the ultimate good, but without gaining any of the freedoms enshrined in their constitution, which we lack here.

    In short, any law or right that gets in the way of US profits will be watered down and in doing this, we will surrender our sovereignty because what, after all, is that but the power to make your own laws without interference from other nations or the need to obey their dictums.

    I just don't see how a prime minister has the right to do this. I mean that.

  5. SolidSquid

    So since it's so close to passing, I would assume the treaty is in a suitable position to be released to the public since they don't need to worry about it being an early draft and misinterpreted? No? Oh well

    1. Elmer Phud

      Hmm, before the May elections?

  6. cs94njw

    So depressing :( You can only assume Governments are getting bribes, because it's not clear how this benefits the people.

  7. Graham Marsden
    Thumb Down

    Froman?

    Why did my mind interpret that as "Front Man"?

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Solutions?

    I'm a strong believer in peaceful solutions, but I hear people every day say: "The only way to stop criminal corporations and criminal government officials from continuing the gangster like activities is with actual violence against them."

    I don't agree with the idea, but many think it would be effective.

  9. Tom 13

    Crazy 'Merkin here

    Out a lot of really bad crap, this line in particular caught my eye:

    America, in turn, agreed to allow Japan to maintain its safety standards on car imports.

    As a crazy 'Merkin, I don't understand how that was a concession to Japan. I mean, as long as the same safety standards apply to their domestic manufacturers, that seems like common sense. Especially given that here in the States we mostly get stuck with Kali's motor vehicle standards regardless of where we actually live. Sole exception is the ultra-low emissions vehicles.

    1. dan1980

      Re: Crazy 'Merkin here

      This line shows exactly what the problem is with this whole mess.

      What it says is that the US wanted to make it so that Japan would be forced to allow the import of goods regardless of if they met the Japanese standards or not.

      This is the core of these agreements - you must adopt US rules.

      The fact that the US views it as a concession to allow Japan to require US goods to meet the same standards as local goods is all you need to know. Yes, these agreements are always done like this, but that's the bloody problem!

      The US sees local regulations as "trade barriers", with the associated logic that trade is, ipso facto, good and therefore any barriers are bad and should be removed.

      The problem is that nations put those regulations in place - often with much internal debate and discussion and compromise - to protect their citizens and/or their natural environment. They are the result of the legal, usually democratic, processes of a sovereign nation, enacted for the good of that nation (idealism perhaps . . .)

      Labour laws, environmental regulations and safety standards are all 'barriers to trade' and so must be abolished.

      The US values profit over all else and so has built a local system around that. As a sovereign nation, that's their choice. Other sovereign nations, however, may decide that that approach is not right for them and develop a system that tempers the greed for profit with the need to provide a good quality of life for the people.

      These 'partnerships' and 'agreements' aim to get those countries to disregard their own people in favour of the US 'profit-first' ideology.

      1. Tom 13

        Re: Crazy 'Merkin here

        Except that none of what you posted about America is in fact true. That's just you projecting hatred. Because I am in fact a free trade advocate. Less red tape and lower import taxes improves everybody's lot. If the Japanese can, after including the cost of shipping across an ocean, produce something more cheaply than we can, they ought to get the sale. Same thing the other way around. But none of that is related in anyway to safety regulations. Unless you have overwhelming evidence that the so-called safety regulations are in fact a sham to protect local production. But that would be readily provable because the cars they make wouldn't meet their own regulations.

        1. dan1980

          Re: Crazy 'Merkin here

          @Tom 13

          "Because I am in fact a free trade advocate. Less red tape and lower import taxes improves everybody's lot."

          First thing: 'red tape' is a pretty loaded term. Calling something 'red tape' is saying that the regulations or procedures in question are redundant or unnecessary and thus should be removed. "Cutting the red tape" and all that.

          So yes, removing 'red tape' is generally a good thing. The problem comes in differentiating between what should actually be considered 'red tape' and what is actually important. And just because something becomes a burden to businesses or reduces their potential profitability or increases prices, that does not mean that it is self-evidently 'red tape'.

          For example, building code regulations certainly raise the price of construction but they exist to ensure that buildings meet certain standards that, when applied across a large area (local or state or nation-wide) increase safety and protect customers from potentially costly issues. Some might see some of these regulations as unnecessary and as adding to costs without providing appreciable benefits but, with the origin of (modern) building regulations being the Great Fire of London in the 17th century, the impetus is becomes clear.

          Regulations generally come from experience where bad practices - either careless or unscrupulous - have had detrimental consequences for the public. For example, in Australia, the previous government, which was in power during the collapses of several financial advisory and investment firms, created some new regulations for that sector, focusing on increased reporting and more control over commissions.

          The current government views those regulations as 'red tape' and wants to scrap them.

          Likewise they want to scrap regulations aroudn charities, which are there to ensure that those companies running as charities are actually proper charities. Apparently the fact that adhering to this regulation costs the charities money makes it, ipso facto, red tape.

          On the other hand, the government wants to remove the regulations around movie classification that requires movies tgo through classification whenever they are released on different format. So, a movie released on DVD and can be re-released on Blu-ray without having to be reclassified.

          That is most certainly 'red tape' as it costs money and doesn't provide any real benefit for consumers.

          Some things just ARE red tape and these are usually regulations that used to serve a purpose but have since been rendered irrelevant or redundant and cost time and money yet add little or nothing by way of benefit or protection.

          Most other things bandied about as 'red tape' are classified based on ideological biases. If you are of the more strongly capitalist, free-market bent, then you are more likely to view regulations as unnecessary burdens on businesses and believe that their removal will benefit everyone, allowing businesses to save money while providing more and better choices for the consumer as well as driving down prices.

          But this is not a purely objective matter because it often depends on what outcomes one views as more important.

          If you are someone who is very pro-enterprise and simultaneously does not believe that climate change is real or that humans activity is a contributing factor, then you are likely to view environmental regulations - such as those enforcing energy efficient electronics or buildings or cars - as 'red tape' because you either don't believe there is a benefit or believe the benefit is small so the cost appears unbalanced.

          One big element of the TPP appears to be around food exports/imports and much of the discontent is where local regulations of food safety are concerned. Some leaked parts of the agreement have the effect of limiting a country or state's ability to impose health standard on food brought in. In Australia we have strict regulations concerning (e.g.) poultry, to prevent any spread of disease. The US wants to see these removed to allow US corporations to sell more chicken to Australia.

          Likewise regulations around mandatory labelling of food products, including GMO foods. Personally, I have little to no problem with GMO but it is not unreasonable to require foods to be labelled so people can make their own decisions. These requirements are also in the crosshairs.

          These things are not so much barriers to trade as insurances that the trade that does occur will be to the standard that the country setting the rules expects.

      2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Re: Crazy 'Merkin here

        The US sees local regulations as "trade barriers"

        That's precisely what they are.

        Now, some would argue that they're good barriers to trade, because what they do is turn externalities - such as product safety - into market-entrance costs, which means they can be reflected in prices. I'm perfectly happy with that outcome myself.

        Corporations, however, are looking to minimize cost and maximize profit, and one way to do that is to sell the same product in all markets, and one way to do that is to force all markets to be homogeneous. Since the executive branch is far more interested in serving the interests of corporations than those of people, and particularly of non-citizens living in other countries, of course it will first try to convince other nations to adopt regulations parallel to US ones.

        The error is in thinking that there is no greater good than removing an impediment to trade. We recognize a huge number of such impediments that we deem better than the alternative. Which ones any particular free-tradist supports may vary, but no one except an anarchist wants to abolish them all - and anarchists are fools.

  10. ecofeco Silver badge

    As I say, it's the New World Order!

    You have problem with Corporate Communist Capitalism©®™, comrade?

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