back to article FORCE Apple to support BlackBerry hardware, demands John Chen

In a blog post on the BlackBerry website, CEO John Chen has called on regulators to force Apple and Netflix to support Blackberry hardware, claiming this forms part of the ongoing net neutrality debate. He argues that because BlackBerry has the eyes, ears and fingers of the most important people in the world – thanks to its …

  1. Steve Todd
    Stop

    Erm, wrong

    Net neutrality is nothing to do with terminals or client systems, it is about the flow of data over the web (and how no ISP should throttle or impede trafic based on failure of the provider to pay a premium).

    You can't use it as a stick to force Netfix et al to write software for your crappy platform, but you can use it against your ISP if there IS a Netfix app and they throttle it while pushing their own streaming video service.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Erm, wrong

      It would set an interesting precedent though… no?

      Customer: I'm having problems connecting to your Internet service

      Helpdesk: What OS are you running?

      Customer: Ubuntu Linux

      Helpdesk: I'm sorry we don't support Linux

      Customer: But net neutrality requires you to do so. Shall I call the FCC?

      Unfortunately such a ruling would only have effect in the US, other countries would likely be unaffected.

      Personally I don't see it happening. "Access to services" yes, but this is about ensuring there's the necessary bandwidth in links to support higher level applications: which can stream whatever they like over that link.

      1. Rick Giles
        Linux

        Re: Erm, wrong

        I was thinking almost exactly that with Netflix and Linux. I CAN watch Netflix via an ugly hack using WINE and Silverblight (yeech).

        I would prefer not to.

        1. Cameron Colley

          Re: Erm, wrong @Rick Giles

          If you're willing to install Google Chrome Beta you can now watch Netflix on Linux natively just as I am doing right now, it being the only thing I do use Google Chrome for but that's another topic.

      2. Hugh McIntyre

        Re: Erm, wrong

        Firstly I agree with all the other posts that Blackberry cannot force people to write apps for them and this should not be made a rule. That's the cost (for BB) of being a minority platform, just as lots of platforms no longer get Flash or AcroRead [*].

        The one area where there might be a valid argument, though, is to require enough of the protocol to be public so that Blackberry (or someone else) could write their *own* iMessage compatible app. Similarly to the way Microsoft was required to open up APIs and file formats, but not forced to write a copy of Office for other platforms. This could also have the consumer benefit, long term, of being able to buy a phone from company A and tablet from company B and more compatibility between the two.

        The obviously problem though is how you'd decide which protocols would have to be open and which were small enough, so it's very unlikely Mr Chen will get help from the FCC. Presumably you'd just require "dominant/monopoly" content such as iMessage or Skype, with even Netflix being much less obvious, but really it's hard to see this being a rule. In the past some of these open formats were forced by government purchasing i.e. "open the protocol or no US Gov sales", which was enough leverage in many cases.

        BB probably shouldn't hold their breath ...

        [*] sometimes a blessing?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Erm, wrong

          The one area where there might be a valid argument, though, is to require enough of the protocol to be public so that Blackberry (or someone else) could write their *own* iMessage compatible app.

          This could be worthwhile: I don't care so much about whether an implementation of a system is open, but so long as I choose how I access it.

          Me personally: I don't care enough about Netflicks to get worked up about not being able to access it. In fact, it was only until very recently that we could get Netflicks at all, thanks the the daft policies that forget the Internet is global.

          There's some nice shows to watch? Great. So what? I'll just be a little patient and buy them on DVD later. Sure, it's quaint, but I've got a life to live rather than sitting around watching TV shows all day.

      3. sisk

        Re: Erm, wrong

        It would set an interesting precedent though

        I think it would be a terrible precedent. It'd be great for Linux and other niche systems, but pretty much everything would end up getting more expensive as the companies involved were forced to support every obscure system out there.

    2. Bigboy1

      Re: Erm, wrong

      I think everyone is aware of what net-neutrality is. What is being proposed here is an extension of the idea to include app-neutrality.

      Its a great idea - a net benefit to consumers anyhow. The only loser in the situation is Apple who is making a killing off of their walled app garden and off of their dominance in the apps-race.

      As for Dev's - Chen's proposal is not to force dev's to write code for every OS that springs up. It is to have them write one app based on some universal standard and the OS providers can build to use the app. Any tweaking of apps for suitability on a certain OS would be optional and done by the OS provider themselves.

  2. ThomH

    I think this is the wrong sort of burden

    The suggested neutrality rules for carriers prohibit what they can do. Packets are inherently have equal priority; the primary offense is taking action to perform market-restricting traffic shaping.

    Chen wants not to prohibit something but to force it; he wants to put a positive burden on Apple, Netflix, etc to develop software they weren't otherwise planning to.

    I don't foresee that leap being widely supported.

    1. Dr Stephen Jones

      Re: I think this is the wrong sort of burden

      "Packets are inherently have equal priority"

      Arts Graduate Alert!

      No they don't. Netflix and VoIP wouldn't work if they did. Like most people commeting on Net Neutrality you don't know how the interwebs work.

      1. asdf

        Re: I think this is the wrong sort of burden

        Yes net neutrality is not about filtering based on packet types but more filtering in the same class based on the source or even destination of the packet. Even that is an oversimplification obviously.

    2. Bigboy1

      Re: I think this is the wrong sort of burden

      "Chen wants not to prohibit something but to force it; he wants to put a positive burden on Apple, Netflix, etc to develop software they weren't otherwise planning to."

      I don't think he is proposing that. I think he is proposing that apps be developed by some universal standard and all OEM's can access them and run them on their Operating System. The obligation is for the OEM to make the Operating system compliant with the standards. He is not suggesting every software benddor has to by law, write a new program from scratch to suit every Operating System that pops up in the space.

      1. asdf

        Re: I think this is the wrong sort of burden

        >that apps be developed by some universal standard and all OEM's can access them and run them on their Operating System.

        Like Java? We all know how great those apps are compared to native on most platforms.

  3. GitMeMyShootinIrons

    How about "no", Mr. Chen?

    If he wants folk to support his platform, then he needs to make his platform an attractive proposition, either through numbers of devices in the wild, or some attractive business enticement.

    To arrogantly demand support in this fashion shows that he has a poor grasp of business (effectively wanting something for nothing) as well as a misunderstanding of what net neutrality is about.

    Mr. Chen has made himself look a tad foolish.

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: How about "no", Mr. Chen?

      Not if it works he hasn't!

    2. Bigboy1

      Re: How about "no", Mr. Chen?

      It's not a matter of arrogance. he was hired to increase shareholder value. There is no bigger impediment to that goal, than the app gap.

      He's going his job.

      1. asdf

        Re: How about "no", Mr. Chen?

        What by whining and making his company look even more pathetic and desperate publicly?

  4. Test Man

    Total utter idiot.

  5. Nigel Whitfield.

    To the re-education camp!

    Bonkers. Completely and utterly bonkers.

    Who's going to decide which apps are required to be ported? Will it only apply to the ones he really wants? Will organisations be fined if they don't port an app?

    Who will cover the cost of this? Will Blackberry provide lots of lovely free tools, and education material?

    Will they be setting up re-education camps, to ensure that wayward developers recognise the folly of their discrimination in platforms?

  6. William Donelson

    He thinks we are fools...

    Gee, I can't sell my app-less phones. Let's have the government force you to buy them.

    Idiot.

  7. Frank N. Stein

    Chen is reaching pretty far, here. There is neither legal precedent nor reason for US Federal regulators to force anyone to support Blackberry, least of all, their competitors. Good luck with that, Chen.

  8. Michael Hawkes

    Free speech

    Net neutrality is a bit like free speech. Everyone has (or should have) a right to speak.

    Blackberry seems to be saying "Everybody should speak our language."

    Just because I support net neutrality, doesn't mean I want to speak Blackberry.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Free speech

      But you are getting a taste of your own medicine.

      It's hilarious.

  9. thames

    The actual post is not quite as reported

    The actual post is not quite what was reported. The relation to "net neutrality" what he calls "carrier neutrality" and is with respect to how radio spectrum is regulated in the US. He would like to see the rules used for "C block" spectrum applied across the board to all wireless. These rules he characterizes as "no blocking" and "no locking". These rules prohibit carriers from limiting what legal devices can be used on their network, and to prohibit them from locking handsets or crippling features.

    Apple is under investigation in Canada over forcing deals on carriers which prevent them from selling handsets from certain competitors or dictating that those handsets must be priced higher, so it's not just something that is emanating strictly from the carriers. This issue will have been at the top of Chen's mind when he was framing his argument. If people are not prevented from using whatever handsets they want on whatever carrier they want, then Chen can sell more handsets directly to businesses without worrying about what exclusivity deals that carrier might have made with other handset manufacturers.

    The application and content neutrality comes at the end of his post, which means that it's the least important issue so far as he's concerned. Note however the inclusion of "content", not just apps. He doesn't go into details on this point, but I think the issue is mainly about Netflix not allowing their app to run on Blackberry (Blackberry can run Android apps with minimal effort), possibly due to exclusivity deals with other parties. Google's deliberate hobbling of Youtube on Windows Phone would make another good example, but he doesn't mention that one.

    He's taking some subtle digs at Netflix here, pointing out that they are crying about being "net neutrality" on wired networks, while simultaneously blocking support on certain wireless platforms. He doesn't actually anywhere say that companies should have to port their apps, so I think what he has in mind is that Blackberry or some authorized third party would write the apps or port the Android app to Blackberry.

    I suspect that his app/content argument will go nowhere, but I think he's right about the need for more consumer and business protection from carrier locking and blocking, and that applies to a lot of other countries besides the US.

    1. cupperty
      Big Brother

      Re: The actual post is not quite as reported

      On the app front he should finish what RIM/BB started (allowing Android apps to more-or-less run on BB10) and pay the devs of key apps (like WhatsApp) to ensure that the Android versions work properly on a Blackberry.

      I'm thinking of defecting to Android so that I can use the likes of RedPhone & TextSecure from my mobe ..

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So back when Blackberry was dominant

    Was the app that let you connect your phone to your PC to sync contacts, etc. supported on OS X? I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was not.

    If Blackberry was able to demand this, why not even more niche phone OSes like FirefoxOS, Tizen and Sailfish?

    1. Tom 13

      Re: So back when Blackberry was dominant

      Was the app that let you connect your phone to your PC to sync contacts...

      Given that Windows Apps don't run on Macs, no. I would however be willing to wager a good steak dinner that BB had an equivalent program written specifically for the Mac.

      ..why not even more niche phone OSes..

      I don't see where you can discount niche phone set makers from the net neutrality argument when niche content providers are at the heart of the case for net neutrality. The whole point of the net neutrality argument is that the big guys can buy access the little guys can't. If the principle is sound for the pipes, it is also sound for the delivery system.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Tom 13 Do you even understand net neutrality?

        Why do you think this is a big deal? It is because companies are using public resources (right of way for running fiber, spectrum, etc.) What public resources is Apple is using with iMessage that should require them to support it on Blackberry?

        Given that you don't even understand the very basics of the net neutrality argument, but apparently think that successful companies should be forced to get a leg up to the less successful ones, you should reference socialism in your arguments because that's what you're advocating for.

  11. Qwixel

    There is one of the very last gasps of a dying company, folks.

  12. Anonymous C0ward

    He's batshit mental.

  13. Alistair
    Coat

    Microsoft - I have an issue

    your platform will not run my MVS JCL code. Please fix now.

  14. Mike Moyle

    Any programmers out there...

    ...want to port a fart app to BB and insist that they MUST carry it in their store, out of fairness?

  15. johnblackberry

    Not Playing Fair

    I always feel like something is going on behind the scenes with Apple and how they deal with other their competitors and partner companies. I am fairly sure there are examples of Apple unfairly wielding their influence to stifle competition(Apple and Adobe Flash controversy). I have a Playbook tablet and I was an early adopter. In the beginning there was an app to run Netflix on it that an independent developer created. Netflix at some point decided they were not going to allow it. I used to be able to watch HBOgo and Showtime on my Playbook tablet and suddenly they stopped working. I put my tablet in development mode to debug the issue with HBO to go and specifically found jscript code that is there to recognize if the user agent(browser) is Blackberry. It is completely possible that Apple puts pressure on content providers to not support their competitors device platforms Blackberry has done some questionable things as well. I've never understood why Blackberry gave ATT exclusive rights to sell their phones at a time when ATT was almost exclusively marketing and pushing the iPhone to consumers. I don't understand why Blackberry creates a phone like the Passport which looks amazing and then its not available anywhere. I never understand why Blackberry doesn't defend its public image better. Every time I turn around some iPhone fan boy is writing about the death of BlackBerry or someone is purposely misinterpreting facts to make the company look bad and they don't stick up for themselves.

  16. johnblackberry

    I would cite the Apple and Adobe Flash controversy as an example of how Apple deals with competition. It is not out of the realm of possibilities that they do not team up with business partners and content providers to stifle the competition. I have a Blackberry Playbook and I can not watch HBO to go on it event though in the beginning I could. At some point it stopped working and no one ever said why. Since HBO runs through a browser they should it should work but HBO seem to block their content from working on Blackberry devices. Netflix never created an app for Blackberry because there was a perceived idea that Blackberry would be dead in a few years and it would be a waste of time to develop an app for the platform. Other companies also followed this line of thinking and I did not see much effort from Blackberry to counter this notion.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Flash was not competition

      It was shitty software, which has been mostly abandoned even on PCs now. If Apple cared that much about trying to prop up Quicktime, they wouldn't have supported h.264 video via HTML5 well before they told everyone they would never support flash.

      Flash was a clearly inferior alternative to that, and that's why it failed in the marketplace. Or did you like having a Core 2 Quad brought to its knees by a single web page filled with flash ads?

      1. asdf

        Re: Flash was not competition

        Check out the dude's name. At least you know where he is coming from. Butthurtistan.

  17. asdf

    hahahahahaha

    Is it a coincidence they are headquartered in a place named Waterloo?

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Is this the John Chen

    Who excluded the BlackBerry PlayBook from BB10 functionality? PlayBook users (me and Doris) would like him to read his own memo

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why respond to what John Chen's point was, when you can shoot down a straw-man instead? One can almost perceive the high pitched whine of eyes swivelling around in their sockets.

  20. Tom 13

    Chen's claim is insane,

    but flows logically from the net neutrality premise.

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  23. Bigboy1

    People are misunderstanding ....

    Based on what I am reading, I think many people are misunderstanding how an app-neutral market would work.

    Developers would develop one app, based on some set of universal standards. It would be the responsibility of the Operating System providers to make their OS compliant with that standard so that apps are able to run on all devices.

    Net bennefit to consumers, to Developers, to BB, to Amazon, to Tizen, to Microsoft...

    Net loser - Apple and their walled-app garden cash cow.

    1. asdf

      Re: People are misunderstanding ....

      Ever taken a look at the amount of malware comparing iOS to Android? Sometimes the walled-app garden isn't a bad choice as long as the consumer does have choice (ie. can use a non walled garden OS if they so choose).

  24. James 100

    Call his bluff

    OK ... let's start by applying his demands to his own software first. Order him to release BBM for BeOS and OS/2 on PowerPC for starters. That North Korean Linux distro, too, of course.

    Like a comment above, I could understand requiring open protocols for these services, in the same way MS were forced to open up some of their APIs and file formats and the big cable and telephone companies have to follow standards and interconnect nicely - but his demands are just crazy. Not to mention, of course, the exact opposite of what his company did until long after it had any market power - hypocrisy anyone?

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