back to article By the power of Xbox, WE HAVE THE POWER! - Leakers publish One's SDK

An online group has released what it claims is the software development kit (SDK) for Microsoft's Xbox One console and, according to reports, may have access to games from Halo developers 343 Industries. The leakers released the kit over the festive break to encourage researchers to develop exploits required to gain full …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    practically?

    "practically a stripped Windows 8 device" with proprietary file and storage formats

    So it's like every other Windows computer, then.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Posting stupid?

      Post anonymously.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: practically?

      "The leakers released the kit over the festive break to encourage researchers to develop exploits required to gain full control "

      Whilst I would like to see the Xbox One get cracked, it seems unlikely in software. The Xbox One is like a super version of Bitlocker + Secure Boot with hardware fuses + a TPM + kernel enforced security. This combination hasn't yet been successfully cracked in their normal versions, let alone on a locked down console. And then the game OS effectively runs under a Hypervisor - so there is another layer of lockdown.

  2. Charles 9

    EXCEPT for the proprietary formats. At lest Win8 uses well-known filesystems like NTFS. Credits to milos all those virtual hard drives are encrypted with an internal private key, though. Pretty sure one of the first things the console does when it goes online is to pass along its public key to Microsoft so as to facilitate secure downloads.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      NTFS is proprietary, and only well-known due to reverse engineering.

      1. Charles 9

        Point remains. It's still well-known, even if it's proprietary, compared to say a reverse-spun DVD or the like. This virtual hard drive format is probably an encrypted version of the Virtual Hard Disk used in Virtual PC.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Pretty sure one of the first things the console does when it goes online is to pass along its public key to Microsoft "

      Microsoft already has the console specific keys as they are generated during manufacturing.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Microsoft already has the console specific keys as they are generated during manufacturing.

        And it just guesses which ones are yours when you connect.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Microsoft already has the console specific keys as they are generated during manufacturing.

          "And it just guesses which ones are yours when you connect."

          No - your console sends it's serial number once connected.

          1. Charles 9

            Re: Microsoft already has the console specific keys as they are generated during manufacturing.

            Either way. Point is the private key never leaves the console (and more than likely never leaves the blackbox unit it's stored--it's basically like execute-only memory).

  3. DrXym

    Homebrew with strings

    Assuming someone genuinely wanted to run homebrew they'd almost certainly have to forfeit all all online functionality - XBL, multiplayer, patches, achievements etc. Homebrew would require a custom firmware to bypass checksum tests and sideload the applications.

    When mods appeared for the 360 Microsoft wielded a mighty ban hammer against those stupid enough to sign using with them. I assume it would be simple enough to embed tests in the firmware, and even in games to do various tests to make sure the firmware is kosher - checksum a range of memory, check the value in a register, read a block from a disc - whatever passes on a legit firmware but not on a modified one.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Homebrew with strings

      I find the whole thing disgusting: You buy a £300+ box that you have no control over.

      1. dogged

        Re: Homebrew with strings

        Then don't buy one.

        You're happy and the lack of you complaining about a console you don't own will make everyone else happy too.

      2. DrXym

        Re: Homebrew with strings

        "I find the whole thing disgusting: You buy a £300+ box that you have no control over."

        Then use your £300 to buy a box which lets you fiddle with it. By and large consoles are not designed to be open systems.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Homebrew with strings

          There's a great difference between "not designed to be open systems" and aggressively hindering any attempt at re-purposing or upgrading it or even repairing it yourself.

          I do find it odd that people are generally ok with this type of thing, but I guess not everyone is a geek like me. I have no knowledge/interest in cars, but I'd be quite pissed off if I was unable to open the bonnet and were banned from the road if I made any attempt to.

          I haven't bought a console for a long time, and I have no intention - but I'm allowed to have and share my own opinion on the matter.

          1. DrXym

            Re: Homebrew with strings

            "There's a great difference between "not designed to be open systems" and aggressively hindering any attempt at re-purposing or upgrading it or even repairing it yourself."

            Perhaps I should have added that they are designed to be closed systems and it's strongly implied. Consoles are designed to stop people pirating games, enabling DLC, cheating, griefing or derive other benefits by tampering with the system.

            Unfortunately there is no easy way to distinguish between homebrew and piracy. Attempts to split the groups such as the OtherOS in PS3 had moderate success but soon turned into attack surfaces and were removed.

            Obviously it's in the company's interests to crack down on piracy but it's also in console owner's interests that they do too. A platform which succumbs to piracy will lose developer support and will die an early death or turn into a sea of shovelware. A platform which is opened to griefers or cheats will soon lose it's online appeal.

            Even if you did manage to bypass the protections in some manner, that doesn't oblige the companies to allow you to continue to use their online services. That's exactly what has happened in the past - Microsoft has been quite aggressive swinging the banhammer against modders.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Homebrew with strings

              That's the kind of attitude we're talking about; modifications = criminal. It's not about piracy (that's the excuse), it's about control and extortion.

              Last year a friend of mine asked me to modify his PS3 so he can copy his games and run them off an external drive, for ease of use and he's sick of them breaking (the games can be stored in a case away from his grubby mits, and doesn't need to get off his fat arse to change the game). Is he a criminal?

              Microsoft/Sony have you (and your wallet) in the palms of their hand...

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Homebrew with strings

                AC: Forgive me to laugh at what you are writing.

                Disclaimer: I used to be in a cracking group (when younger), and then worked in the video game industry (I happen to work in the R&D of one of the console makers you hate so much).

                The main purpose of "modifying" a console is not to run homebrews, or "copy your [original I presume] games off an external hard drive".

                The main purpose of "modifying" a console is to run illegal copies of games. Let's be clear and honest.

                It's like someone asking for programmable card and card-writer in electronic shop. It's not because they want to view their favourite show from their local hard-drive. :)

                Having been young, I can understand people do not have magic pockets with infinite amount of money. I do not condemn (well, to some extent) but I do not support either. I will certainly not find the crappiest justification ever.

                By the way, there has been lay-off in some of the big corporation you seem to hate (and in smaller game studios). The reality is that piracy kills jobs.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Stop

                  Re: Homebrew with strings

                  There's a great difference between "not designed to be open systems" and aggressively hindering any attempt at re-purposing or upgrading it or even repairing it yourself."

                  There is NOTHING stopping you. Once it is in your hands you can do WTF you want to do with it.

                  HOWEVER should you attempt to access ANY MS services, they have every right to say, nope not touching our systems.

                  So if you want to hack (as many, many people have for other reasons), feel free, just don't have it connect to MS.

                  1. dogged

                    Re: Homebrew with strings

                    Basically this.

                    You own the console. Do what you like to it.

                    You do not own the servers you want to connect it to. To do so, you must comply with conditions that are set in order to

                    a) maintain "fair play"

                    b) prevent PS3-style cracking of that system, thus hurting other players and

                    c) ensure that you're not playing against somebody who paid full whack with your pirated game (this is really a subset of a) but I felt it needed emphasis).

                    So sure thing, hack away. But you can only hack what you paid for. And you did not pay for ongoing support patches - those are warrantee items and you invalidated your warrantee when you hacked the box.

                    Well put, @Lost all faith.

                2. Annihilator
                  Stop

                  Re: Homebrew with strings

                  "The main purpose of "modifying" a console is not to run homebrews, or "copy your [original I presume] games off an external hard drive"."

                  It absolutely can be. I've still got an original PS2 with a hard drive shoved in the back, HD Advance in the DVD drive and all the games up the loft. The primary reason for this was a) convenience and also b) speed of loading - the PS2 didn't have any internal storage and so loaded games painfully slowly off the DVD, making Gran Turismo an absolute bll-ache.

                  For some PS3 games this argument still holds, as they don't all install full content onto the HDD.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Homebrew with strings

                    "The main purpose of "modifying" a console is not to run homebrews, or "copy your [original I presume] games off an external hard drive"."

                    It absolutely can be

                    Same here! I copy the bought games onto the kid's PS3 HDD - for convenience, and to prevent damage to the discs (they can be stored out of the way). Copyright law permits you to take a back-up copy - and even if it didn't, I'd still do it anyway. (In reality, the disc is the back-up).

                    Sure, there's nothing preventing me from re-selling the discs while still having it on my HDD - but I'll gladly have them restrict me on doing that, rather than make me jump through hoops just so I can have a legitimate and/or ethical back-up.

                3. Anonymous Bullard

                  Re: Homebrew with strings

                  The reality is that piracy kills jobs.

                  That's absolute bullshit FUD - there could be dozens of reasons behind a company's failures. Piracy is a small factor.

                  So here's my knee-jerk anecdote whenever I hear that:

                  ~10 years ago, I had a few pieces of desktop software out there (nothing spectacular, but it paid the bills for a few years - mothballing now because the desktop is dead).

                  When my applications phoned home - I mean checked for updates, almost 1/4 requests where from cracked copies (tampered EXE) or serial keys posted on public sites. So I made those people go to a landing page on my web site that politely said that their copy wasn't genuine, and here's a 50% discount (in case they simply couldn't afford it) - it got to around 3000 hits and about 4-6 people took the offer, and a single 1 paid full price payer who even emailed me to say sorry. I then made is simply refuse to run until they coughed up (no threats/accusations, but a 50% discount), I got takers in the mid-teens (number of, not age).

                  The moral? People who pirate your software aren't potential customers; if they can't pirate it, then they'll use something else (I'd rather them pirated my software than my competitors).

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Homebrew with strings

                    @Anonymous Bullard

                    >"That's absolute bullshit FUD": no it is not.

                    >"People who pirate your software aren't potential customers; if they can't pirate it, then they'll use something else".

                    Two problems:

                    - ressource allocation: You have some money available, where do you spend it (and why)?

                    - incentive: Giving the choice of having a good for free or against money, why should I pay?

                    Example #1:

                    You like cinema in theatre, and there is no other way to see a film in theatre than buying a ticket = you prioritize, and you have less money to spend on your other hobbies.

                    Now, someone is telling you "hey, I know a way to see movies in theatre, without paying, and with zero risk". Are you going to continue paying? If you choose "no" as an answer, you will have more money to spend on other hobbies.

                    Example #2:

                    Another example, tomorrow, someone is telling you that he has a way to have free mobile call, with zero risk. What do you choose?

                    An equivalent I could think is "France Telecom Blue Box" (google it)

                    Example #3:

                    Same with pay-TV decoding card (trust me, my experience in this domain is that nobody I knew chose to continue paying for pay-TV given the free alternative!)

                    People who are copying a game (I would not call it "pirate", as for me, it involves cracking) ARE (were) a potential customer!

                    If they copied a game, it is because they wanted to play it.

                    Did they want to play it enough to actually spent money on it? Hard to know.

                    You experienced pinging home and get only 25% of pirated copies. In game, once a console as a known hack, you'd be lucky to have 25% originals.

                    When the PSP was utterly hacked, the software sells went down very quickly, and nobody invested in it (also, the Technical Requirement Checklist of the PSP made it virtually impossible to implement copy protection, so the consequence of hacking was a big revenue loss for lots of people).

                    Now, just imagine you were developping a game for console, invested your own money, and suddently, kaboom, it gets hacked and you know the sales are going to go down the drain...

                    The xbox 360 had a better attach rate (or software tie ratio), mostly because of better protection (well, it was the thought shared by most people I knew in the video game are at the time).

                    With downloadable games, there was a chance for studios to sell almost directly their games to the consumers. The consequence of poorer sales due to piracy have been clearly visible to some people around me: redundancy, claim benefits until you find a real job, sometimes in a different industry.

                    [I know several talented people who left the video game industry because of the lack of stability, and the pay]

                    It is a tough industry, especially for small studios who are investing money to not do "game on command" (a command coming from a publisher)

                    Oh by the way, if you want to find other reasons for loss of jobs, I could give you plenty, but piracy is certainly not helping.

                    1. NumptyScrub

                      Re: Homebrew with strings

                      People who are copying a game (I would not call it "pirate", as for me, it involves cracking) ARE (were) a potential customer!

                      If they copied a game, it is because they wanted to play it.

                      Did they want to play it enough to actually spent money on it? Hard to know.

                      The point being made by Anonymous Bullard is that the vast majority of "pirates" never intend to pay for the software. They are not a lost sale, because they were never going to pay (you cannot lose a sale to someone who would never purchase your product), they are simply an opportunistic, unauthorised user. If you make it impossible for them to use your software unauthorised, they will just stop using your software, rather than purchase a legitimate copy.

                      Thus the canned statements of "we lost £100 million to piracy last year" are impossible to justify. If the product was impossible to pirate, Anonymous Bullard's personal experience is that there would have been almost the same number of sales, and that alleged £100 million in lost sales would be exposed as vapourware. It would be like claiming that "every vehicle on the M6 motorway is a lost sale for the M6 Toll road" and subsequently "the M6 motorway costs the M6 Toll road millions per year in lost revenue". On the surface it seems like a reasonable assumption, but if you actually look at the motivations and reasoning of the people involved, it is shown up as fallacious.

                      Software pirates don't buy software, they just use whatever they can get hold of for free. If you manage to stop them from using your software for free, they just look elsewhere; the vast majority do not (and will not) go on to buy your software.

              2. DrXym

                Re: Homebrew with strings

                "That's the kind of attitude we're talking about; modifications = criminal. It's not about piracy (that's the excuse), it's about control and extortion."

                It's certainly about control. Extortion? Not so much.

                "Last year a friend of mine asked me to modify his PS3 so he can copy his games and run them off an external drive, for ease of use and he's sick of them breaking (the games can be stored in a case away from his grubby mits, and doesn't need to get off his fat arse to change the game). Is he a criminal?"

                So how does Sony / Microsoft / Nintendo distinguish between your "running backups from an external hdd" scenario and "running pirate copies from an external hdd" scenario?

                I guarantee you that in the real world that the second example would be hugely more prevalent and the one that these companies are really concerned about. Anyway, both the PS4 and XB1 cache content on the HDD so the disc isn't used for much except to validate you own the game and install the content in the first place.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Homebrew with strings

                  So how does Sony / Microsoft / Nintendo distinguish between your "running backups from an external hdd" scenario and "running pirate copies from an external hdd" scenario?

                  Well, remember the scenario we almost had with Microsoft where they announced that they'd virtually put an end to the re-sale of games? That's the technology you could use; it's already there - if only they weren't so draconian about it.

                  1. NumptyScrub

                    Re: Homebrew with strings

                    Well, remember the scenario we almost had with Microsoft where they announced that they'd virtually put an end to the re-sale of games? That's the technology you could use; it's already there - if only they weren't so draconian about it.

                    Yep, they would tie the game to your account and then you wouldn't need the disc any more (it would become a coaster, as the game key was the important part). You could also share the game license with up to 6 (or was it 8?) friends, on the proviso that only one person could be playing at any one time; if you wanted to play together, you all needed to buy the game.

                    Most people violently opposed to the original plan missed the part where you could voluntarily share the content with several friends, aka "lend them the (virtual) disc". I wasn't aware of it until an acquaintance (who works for MS) pointed it out. So we gained the ability to lend or sell people the physical disc (and require the physical disc in the drive to play the game even though it's fully installed to HD), and lost the ability to just save all our games onto HD (including external HDs plugged in via USB) and never need the physical discs again once the license is assigned to your account. Once it's assigned you can also just download the digital version any time you want, rather than have to hunt the disc down for a reinstall.

                    I know which one I'd have preferred overall, since I tend to just keep my games rather than trade them in. Those people happy to spend £5 to £10 to rent the game for a week or 2 (purchase for £40, trade in for £30 later) are the people who lose out.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: Homebrew with strings

                      (purchase for £40, trade in for £30 later) are the people who lose out.

                      And they caved in in favour of those cheap skates (plus the way the media "marketed" the idea didn't help) - I'm no fan of Microsoft but I found it to be a good thing once I read all the facts.

                      Personally, I'd pay extra for the convenience of "officially" putting games onto my HDD, just so I don't need to jump through hoops.

                      Look at the likes of Netflix and Spotify - it showed that most of us "pirated" digital media because it was convenient, and as soon as there was a legitimate way we threw money at them.

                      1. dogged

                        Re: Homebrew with strings

                        > the media "marketed" the idea didn't help

                        the actual details didn't fit in a tweet (or red-top headline).

                  2. DrXym

                    Re: Homebrew with strings

                    "Well, remember the scenario we almost had with Microsoft where they announced that they'd virtually put an end to the re-sale of games? That's the technology you could use; it's already there - if only they weren't so draconian about it."

                    People screamed blue bloody murder about this. The idea was each disc would have the registration code uniquely embedded into it. By doing so, the console could register the disc and then it's basically a drinks coaster. No second hand trades, no loans, just a disc that became a backup. A bit like steam games and the registration code.

                    Microsoft backed down and consequently you need to validate you own the game by putting the disc in. It's a tradeoff.

                    It would be nice if they had an algorithmic "honour system" that reduced the need to verify the disc each time.

                  3. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Homebrew with strings

                    "Well, remember the scenario we almost had with Microsoft where they announced that they'd virtually put an end to the re-sale of games?"

                    That was not what they said at all. But they would have controlled resale and there would have been a small 'transfer fee' to swap used games - which of course many objected to.

              3. FlatSpot

                Re: Homebrew with strings

                Maybe not a criminal but it sounds like "your friend" needs to get out more and do some exercise.

              4. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: but I guess not everyone is a geek like me.

                True. Some of us geeks aren't over-entitled self righteous moaners.

          2. NumptyScrub

            Re: Homebrew with strings

            There's a great difference between "not designed to be open systems" and aggressively hindering any attempt at re-purposing or upgrading it or even repairing it yourself.

            I do find it odd that people are generally ok with this type of thing, but I guess not everyone is a geek like me. I have no knowledge/interest in cars, but I'd be quite pissed off if I was unable to open the bonnet and were banned from the road if I made any attempt to.

            You should be pissed off then; you can do whatever you like under the bonnet but unless it can pass an MoT you can't use it on the public road. The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 is the car equivalent of the Microsoft (or Sony) restrictions, on what you can and cannot do with your car and still have it use the public roads.

            You can do what you like to the console hardware, just don't expect to run the proprietary operating system on it after you've upgraded / modified anything. You'll need to install your own OS that doesn't care about the modifications, and use your own gaming services, because use of PSN / XBox Live is contingent on you using the supplied (restricted) console operating system.

  4. MJI Silver badge

    CPU power

    Is it that important?

    For consoles it appears not.

    More about GPU.

    Proof is look at the two generations, and look at the most powerful CPU, and it is fitted to the.....

    PS3.

    So why doesn't the PS3 produce graphics as good as the new pair? ****

    GPU

    **** Except some PS3 exclusives still look better than some more recent multiplatforms, a rather fishy multiplayer from late 2013 looks worse than some PS3 MPs from 2011.

    1. Richard 81

      Re: CPU power

      It would, presumably, effect loading times. I've seen Assassin's Creed: Unity running on an XBone and the load times are ridiculously long; often they're well over a minute, per cut scene.

      1. Anonymous Bullard

        Re: CPU power

        And we all know better graphics means improved playability, right?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: CPU power

          Yes, Microsoft told us that last generation, when every Xbox360 and PS3 were compared under a microscope..

          Ah, OK, now the Xbox One gets the crappy ports, the story has changed???

          Can't you see you are being played?

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: CPU power

            Yes, Microsoft told us that last generation

            But the PS3 pulled back with high speed bus between the 2 chips enabling the CPU to be used by the GPU. Some games used ALL SPEs (apart from OS) from the GPU.

            The 360 was much easier to write for and was a clever design. The PS3 was not so easy, more esoteric, but a bit more powerful.

            The PS4 is a simple matter of clever design when you have had a large number of developers moan at you, the X1 is still more slightly more PC oriented.

            Look we need the companies to compete, it drives the market forwards.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Look we need the companies to compete, it drives the market forwards.

              You are basically asking people to buy Xbox crap just to keep Sony on their game...

              OK then,

              What's weird in your argument, is Sony did just fine before Microsoft arrived and tried to disrupt gaming market with their botched attempts at hardware and viral campaigns.

              SO basically, nobody needs to suffer Xbox, just so we get better stuff, Microsoft can exit the gaming market (and with their continued losses in Xbox, they will in all likely do so), and it will be back to normal.

              1. dogged
                Trollface

                Re: Look we need the companies to compete, it drives the market forwards.

                I thought Sony were in financial trouble, AC.

                Nice to see they can still afford you.

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Look we need the companies to compete, it drives the market forwards.

                "and with their continued losses in Xbox, they will in all likely do so"

                Microsoft have consistently been making billions on the Xbox division for years now. It is Sony that are making a loss.

              3. MJI Silver badge

                Re: Look we need the companies to compete, it drives the market forwards.

                People buy the X1 because they like it, my previous postman bought one day of release. The market is better off with some competition. X1 is not as good as PS4 but it is not crap.

                Sony competed with Nintendo and Sega, beat both, twice, then MS, beat, draw (and Nintendo won), then looks like beat again.

                Now what has MS forced Sony to do?

                Develop a decent multiplayer system, would PSN be anything like it is now if there had been no XBL.

                Note : PS2 3 4 P V owner

              4. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Look we need the companies to compete, it drives the market forwards.

                "You are basically asking people to buy Xbox crap "

                At least once they get a PS4 they will be able to sit back and watch a Cinavia protected MKV format movie from any DNLA media source. Oh, wait - no you need an Xbox One for that!

      2. Eponymous Cowherd

        Re: CPU power

        Load times for Unity are a joke. I, too, have sat there for the best part of a minute waiting for the next "memory" to load.

        Moving from a Wii to an XBox One, I have to say that there are plenty of things to be disappointed with it about. Having to install everything to the HDD is a real pain, made doubly painful by the requirement to re-insert the disk to play the game on the HDD. I know why they did it, but it's still annoying.

        It's also not much of a "family" console. There's "Kinect sports heroes", and a couple of "dance" games, and that's about it. Most of the content is of the "running around killing things" genre with "driving like a chav" a fairly distant second and "kicking the ball around", third. Personally I like the first two, but justifying the expense as a family entertainment centre to the financial controller is proving difficult.

        I do rather like AC Black flag. The naval warfare stuff is great fun. Reminds me of the old Microprose "Pirates" game.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    All you need to know is just one click away

    Microsoft are in panic mode, disabling functionality to try and catch the PS4 and stem the flow of crappy Xbox one ports. Its made some small gains (at a big expense in lost functionality) but still has a massive gap that can't be closed in software hacks

    Real World Performance Deficit

    As the Eurogamer article points out, development is moving to GPU, and this is where PS4 performance will drive off into the distance, leaving the Xbox One to continue to get the crappy ports for the next 8 years

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Re: All you need to know is just one click away

      Oh grow up. If you're buying the games for pretty graphics, then you have no clue about gaming.

      Disclaimer, I own neither.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: All you need to know is just one click away

        @Lost all faith: go lookup what a compute shader is and maybe you'll understand GPUs aren't just about 'pretty graphics' but those other things games use like physics.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: All you need to know is just one click away

        Graphics didn't matter the moment Microsoft turned out (another) crappy console that couldn't keep pace..

        Funny that.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: All you need to know is just one click away

      "disabling functionality to try and catch the PS4 . Its made some small gains (at a big expense in lost functionality)"

      This was a tuning change to the amount of system reserved resources. They didn't disable anything. The next version of Direct X - which is coming to Xbox One - should narrow the gap in theoretical performance even more.

      "and stem the flow of crappy Xbox one ports"

      Having played most of the games that are available on both consoles - on both consoles - I can't say that I can see any difference in detail at sitting about 3-4 metres from a 60" Plasma. The PS4 graphical advantage is pretty much mythical imo. However what I can definitely say is that as a gamer, the Xbox One's controllers are much better quality and more precise and it's online gaming is far far superior.

      "Real World Performance Deficit"

      We can see how much that graph is bullshit by the fact that the PS3 is well above the Xbox 360. Whereas everyone knows that in reality the Xbox 360 had the better graphics on most games and a more powerful GPU.

      1. MJI Silver badge

        Re: All you need to know is just one click away

        PS3 / 360

        The 360 was easier to code. And the PS3 GPU was a higher clock speed (but less power per cycle) with a fast bus back to the Cell.

        So most developers could get more out of the 360, but the best developers made that generations best looking games on the PS3.

        Last generation the games from Naughty Dog and Guerilla were better looking than anything on the 360.

        As to quality of game all I need to say is "The Last of Us"

        As to graphics, the multiplayer of Killzone 3 looked better to me than the first X1 CoD.

        Finally I think MSs biggest mistake was letting Bungie go rather than giving them more freedom. They should offer their developers the same freedoms as Sony do.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: All you need to know is just one click away

          "Last generation the games from Naughty Dog and Guerilla were better looking than anything on the 360."

          You must have missed Alan Wake, Dark Souls 2, Diablo 3, Child of Light and Halo 4 which are all better looking on the 360 than anything to date on the PS3.

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: All you need to know is just one click away

            I would suggest you have never played Uncharted 2 or 3, Killzone 3, The Last of Us, nor God of War 3 or Ascension.

    3. NumptyScrub
      Trollface

      Re: All you need to know is just one click away

      As the Eurogamer article points out, development is moving to GPU, and this is where PS4 performance will drive off into the distance, leaving the Xbox One to continue to get the crappy ports for the next 8 years

      Since this seems to have degraded into console brand fanboyism, I'm invoking the PC Master Race and bombing this thread with irrelevant facts.

      The GPU in the PS4 is (slightly) less powerful than a 2 year old nVidia 760 GTX; both have 1152 stream processors, the PS4 runs those cores at 800MHz compared to 1000MHz on the nVidia part, and the PS4 has 5.5GHz memory (176GB/s memory bandwith) compared to 6GHz (192GB/s) in the nVidia part.

      Magical "code optimisations" could possibly pull that back, but the current gen PC GPUs like the 980 GTX have 2048 stream processors at 1200MHz and 7GHz memory (224GB/s). Given that multiplatform releases end up on PC as well, and Windows PCs can use the MS XBox controller natively (or the PS4 controller with the right drivers installed), and the most powerful gaming console is still the PC.

      Compare <insert game here> on the PS4 @1080p (or more likely, 900p lol), versus the same game on the PC @4k. If you want to play Destiny, Battelfield 4, or other games at 4k/60fps, then there really is only one option currently available, and it is neither the Playstation nor the XBox.

      </smug grin>

      1. MJI Silver badge

        Re: Numpty Scrub

        Compare <insert game here> on the PS4 @1080p (or more likely, 900p lol), versus the same game on the PC @4k. If you want to play Destiny, and it is neither the Playstation nor the XBox.

        Pillock!

        Destiny is not available on PC, and there are more strikes & weapons on PS4 than X1.

        Destiny was slightly held back by being multi generation rather than multi platform.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Numpty Scrub

          "and there are more strikes & weapons on PS4 than X1"

          A tiny difference in reality though. Pure marketing bs so that Sony funded loads of advertising...

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: Numpty Scrub

            "and there are more strikes & weapons on PS4 than X1"

            A tiny difference in reality though. Pure marketing bs so that Sony funded loads of advertising...

            So what else could I play on? I have a PS4 and it plays Destiny fine.

            I played on Exodus Blue twice last night, I tend to get Dust Palace quite regularly and The Undying Mind is rather good (as well as difficult).

            To be honest The Undying Mind is worth it,

        2. NumptyScrub
          Trollface

          Re: Numpty Scrub

          Pillock!

          Destiny is not available on PC, and there are more strikes & weapons on PS4 than X1.

          Balls, you are completely right. Still, I guess Battlefield 4, CoD:AW, Dragon Age: Inquisition, Far Cry 4, etc. all are available on PC to play (using a PS4 controller if you want) at 4k/60fps ^^;

          OK...now pull all that off from scratch...on a $400 budget.

          When I bought my current 760GTX 18odd months ago it was over £300, now they retail for £200 (for the 4GB version). Since the AC I originally trolled replied to mentioned "the next 8 years" of the PS4 pwning the XBox One because of a better GPU, I'm pretty sure that less than 8 years will be required to be able to build a gaming PC using a 980GTX (or equivalent) for $400; $100 for the GPU, $200 for the CPU, mobo, RAM and case, and $100 for the Windows license.

          Zotac do a bunch of barebones mini-PCs at around that price range, and whose specs have slowly been getting better (I bought one in 2013 and it's outclassed by their current lineup). At a guess it may only take a couple of years for consumer tech (with consumer markup*) to match or exceed console specs at console prices. Thus is the way of the tech world ^^;

          *If I order 5 million units from Zotac, what discount do you reckon I could get?

          1. MJI Silver badge

            Re: Numpty Scrub

            Hello Numty Scrub

            I upvoted you for the Balls!

            I have built 2 gaming PCs recently, 760 graphics cards AFAIR, 3.2 quad cores, 16GB RAM, SSD boot drive, dual boot Win 7 / Linux Mint for my sons.

            I get put off PC gaming as I prefer to slob out on the settee as I work on PCs all day.

            The other issue is that I am physically incapable of cutting back on PC spec and i could not build one I was happy with for peanuts, I would HAVE to have boot SSD, Blu Ray burner, at least 4TB HDDs (video editing) and so on.

          2. Charles 9

            Re: Numpty Scrub

            "When I bought my current 760GTX 18odd months ago it was over £300, now they retail for £200 (for the 4GB version). Since the AC I originally trolled replied to mentioned "the next 8 years" of the PS4 pwning the XBox One because of a better GPU, I'm pretty sure that less than 8 years will be required to be able to build a gaming PC using a 980GTX (or equivalent) for $400; $100 for the GPU, $200 for the CPU, mobo, RAM and case, and $100 for the Windows license."

            But by then the PS4 will ALSO cost much less. PS3's started at $500 and are now around $200 depending on the model. Similarly, a PS4 will always undercut the PC, meaning my statement still stands. A $400 budget today would reduce to $200 in four years time, and even today a $200 budget is tricky just to get a decent mobo/CPU/RAM combo, let alone the video card (and I've checked).

            1. NumptyScrub

              Re: Numpty Scrub

              But by then the PS4 will ALSO cost much less. PS3's started at $500 and are now around $200 depending on the model. Similarly, a PS4 will always undercut the PC, meaning my statement still stands. A $400 budget today would reduce to $200 in four years time, and even today a $200 budget is tricky just to get a decent mobo/CPU/RAM combo, let alone the video card (and I've checked).

              A Zotac ZBox AD02 (AMD E-350 APU with Radeon 6310 GPU), 250GB HD, 2GB RAM is apparently $160. I can get a preowned XBox 360 250GB for £109 (which is about $160 according to xe.com).

              The main question is really whether an AMD E-350 (dual 1.6GHz, Radeon 6310 w/80 shader cores) provides equivalent performance to the 360, and whether Mint Debian with the Steam client (total cost $0) would allow the ZBox to be considered a gaming machine, or whether you would require it to be running Windows (with the additional license cost) to be considered "equivalent" in functionality to the 360.

              I actually have an AMD E-350 based unit under my TV at home (It's not a Zotac, it's a rebranded Foxconn NTA350 mini-PC), that runs Win7 with Steam and Kodi installed. It plays Dungeon Defenders and Castle Crashers, games I own on both Steam and on the XBox 360, at 1080p at speeds that are indistinguishable from the XBox 360. If it was already running when I walked in, and you put a 360 controller in my hand, I'd actually have to look at the lights on the box to work out which device was actually playing the game ;)

              1. Charles 9

                Re: Numpty Scrub

                You're not bargain hunting enough if $160 is the lowest you're getting for a used 360 with 250GB hard drive. A little bargain hunting showed me price points closer to $100. Plus you've focused on two games with relatively simple graphics. If you were to give your systems something more demanding like, say, FF13 or GTA5, I think the differences in architecture will probably become more profound. Meanwhile, my point still stands in regards to the current generation. And just to be sure, I also checked Steam Machines, none of which can match the price/spec combination of either the PS4 or XB1.

      2. Charles 9

        Re: All you need to know is just one click away

        OK...now pull all that off from scratch...on a $400 budget.

  6. theOtherJT Silver badge

    I guess I understand why games companies are so keen to force you to log into their servers all the time - it's annoying, but it does have genuine up sides. I mean, Steam requires basically the same thing, and that's done pretty well.

    The bit I don't get is restricting access to the SDK and preventing people from loading arbitrary software. Surely that just broadens the appeal of the device and leads to better sales?

    At the very outside surely it would be possible to have the thing boot into "developer mode" or similar where online services are restricted, but you can run whatever code you like with the proviso that this is unsupported and you're on your own if you break it. Hell, even then it wouldn't be so hard to keep a "restore to factory settings" partition hidden away somewhere so you can at least put it back the way it came out of the box if you _do_ balls it up somehow.

    1. Charles 9

      "At the very outside surely it would be possible to have the thing boot into "developer mode" or similar where online services are restricted, but you can run whatever code you like with the proviso that this is unsupported and you're on your own if you break it. Hell, even then it wouldn't be so hard to keep a "restore to factory settings" partition hidden away somewhere so you can at least put it back the way it came out of the box if you _do_ balls it up somehow."

      As the OtherOS fiasco showed, give a hacker just an inch, they'll use that inch to wedge the gates wide open. ANY form of "offline mode" will be exploited, hacked, and so on to MAKE it online-capable again. And given that someone was willing to employ over $200K worth of hardware to attack the Trusted Platform Module, all it would take is ONE person with that kind of hardware and time on his hands to ruin the parade for everyone. So the only way to keep the walled garden relatively tight is to construct is solid, with no portals whatsoever.

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