back to article Welsh council rapped for covert spying on sick leave worker

A council that ordered covert surveillance of a sick employee has been ordered to review its practices following an investigation by data privacy watchdogs. An Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) investigation found that Caerphilly Council breached the Data Protection Act when it ordered the surveillance of an employee …

  1. Jagged
    WTF?

    Early Stage?

    "...before resorting to covert surveillance at such an early stage"

    That makes it sound like might possibly be reasonable to do so at a later stage! *Grr!*

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Early Stage?

      As someone who has had his arm twisted to use CCTV to confirm timesheets during my tenure as an IT manager I can only say: "This does not surprise me".

      Welcome to Britain - doing this elsewhere in Europe f.e. in Germany would have resulted in the relevant manager in the council immediately and summarily dismissed with a lifetime blacklist entry.

      In Britain - you get an "ICO rap" - as per the classic Lafountaine fable: "The cat continues to eat regardless".

    2. Swarthy

      Re: Early Stage?

      Hmm, this could be an interesting discussion.

      In the US, you usually don't get 4 weeks of sick time, unless you had short-term disability, which usually kicks in around 2-3 weeks (just after you have used all of your sick and vacation time) and is often a 3rd party insurance.

      Would it be worth the occasional covert surveillance to actually be able to use sick (not vacation) time, and not have to shell out for additional insurance, for an injury/illness that lasts more than a week?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Early Stage?

        America is pretty stuffed when it comes to looking after people in the workplace. It could learn a lot from Europe.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Early Stage?

          Quote: America is pretty stuffed

          Maybe. If when you say Europe, you mean proper Europe. UK is definitely not Europe as far as staff is concerned.

          I have worked in 3 UK companies and 3 USA companies in the last 15 years.

          1. UK IT companies do not value technical talent. USA is a few light years ahead in terms of ensuring technical staff has the resources and ability to deliver what it has been hired for.

          2. A UK manager is more likely to commit a ritual sepuku with a blunt blade and hang himself on his intestines than pay someone who is purely technical an amount of money comparable to his pay ticket. USA - this is not out of the ordinary.

          3. UK companies do not value generalists, only specific skills are valued making the UK IT market 100% akeen to what is described in Asimov's "Profession". Rather not surprising - in the USA this is a mandatory read in most Engineering schools (including MIT).

          4. And so on...

          As far as "Europe proper", based on what I have seen it is somewhere in-between. It tries to treat staff to a high standard - you can choke on your coffee seeing some of the German (or even Eastern European) employee retainment incentives. It generally does not have the budget to get close to where USA is though.

          By the way - this is all IT. If you go into other industries, the table is probably turned (vs Europe).

      2. Swarthy

        Re: Early Stage?

        I was hoping for discussion, not a vote count.. but I guess as of the current time 5 people don't think it'd be worth it, and 2 people think it would? If that's the case can I down vote my own post?

        Maybe I should have worded the comment better: the discussion that I was referring to is the discussion that almost happens on frequent Google articles: What is your privacy worth to you?" I.E. would you trade privacy for unlimited sick time? Would you trade it for free email? (Gmail) Would you trade it for cheap, easy way to keep up with old friends? (Facebook)

        I was hoping that a discussion on this would harken less to the old OS battles and actually get some views on the value of privacy.

        1. ukgnome

          Re: Early Stage?

          The thing is a lot (not all) have a protected income with regards to sick leave. And there is no maximum, or if there is a maximum it's never hit.

          The working regulations in the UK are quite different so it wouldn't be a great idea to compare them. As such we don't get sick time (at least I don't)

          What I do get though is 30 days holiday, not including public holidays. Paid time off for doctors appointments and a very understanding company that would never dip into facebook to see if I am swinging lead. And NO drug tests!

          This is less about privacy and more about productivity. I suspect that we only have a small portion of this story.

          1. Dave Bell

            Re: Early Stage?

            I think you're right about the lack of detail. There's something that has been kept quiet. But look at the reason mentioned: "off work with a sick note for anxiety and stress". Combine it with the leap to covert surveillance, and we might have some really bad management here. It's all consistent with a really nasty piece of work running things. But we haven't got enough info to be sure. And this is the Undertaking signed by the boss. The "anxiety and stress" had a cause we don't know about. It doesn't have to be something at work.

            But somebody should have been getting a bollocking from the Chief Executive over this.

          2. ravenviz Silver badge
        2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: Early Stage?

          "What is your privacy worth to you?"

          Being as it's a human right delineated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? War, if necessary.

      3. ravenviz Silver badge
        WTF?

        Re: Early Stage?

        Would it be worth the occasional covert surveillance

        No.

  2. Sykobee

    The behaviour of the council here suggests why the worker was off work with stress and anxiety in the first place...

    1. goodjudge

      Or possibly the worker had a history of spurious sick leave and senior management were getting fed up of it?

      1. Christoph

        Could you please post links here to the evidence you used to make that accusation?

        1. wowfood

          Love to, but it might breach the DPA

          1. Colinafc

            I would love to see it as I am the person's Union rep and know you are talking rubbish.

            1. Dave Bell

              I didn't even know the person was a teacher...

              I did think this was a mismanaged office. I now wonder even more just where the idea for covert surveillance came from.

        2. Stig2k

          How is a question

          an accusation? Over-reaction much?

        3. fruitoftheloon

          @Christoph

          Christoph,

          the key word in the post from Goodjudge was POSSIBLY.

          J

      2. Colinafc

        Rubbish. The teacher had an exemplary attendance record over nearly 30 years employment.

        1. keithpeter Silver badge
          Windows

          Sudden Changes

          "Rubbish. The teacher had an exemplary attendance record over nearly 30 years employment."

          I'm suspecting (if the cause of the stress is actually work related and not something outside of work) that there has been a change of management recently and faces don't fit.

          Teaching for 30 years implies a degree of resilience and the inspection regimes (both OFSTED and management 'quality assurance') are fairly stiff with the radically incompetent /just can't cope people generally managed out smoothly.

          Not requesting any more information, just clarifying for the commentards.

  3. Barrie Shepherd

    I'm having difficulty understanding how the covert "spying" breached the Data Protection Act.

    Despicable as some may think it is has an employer not the right to determine if an employee is rorting the system? It may be an invasion of privacy but I really don't see where data is involved.

    Seems to me like the ICO extending it's sphere of influence and assumed power. Or has the report been under-reported and other matters were involved?

    1. bigtimehustler

      Clearly you are the type or moron who would authorise this yourself if you were in such a position then. The data is the compiled report on the employees personal day to day comings and goings, when they are at home, when they go to the shops, if they kissed their lover on the doorstep....once that is written down and compiled it becomes data of a very personal nature on you as a person in your private life, which has nothing to do with the company.

      1. Barrie Shepherd

        A Morons perspective

        Councils are expected to protect public money - thus there is a presumption by the rate payers that Councils will investigate if there is a belief that someone is rorting the system. As said in a later comment the misuse of sick leave in the public service is perceived as high by many people.

        As for the "data" - I'm no lawyer but I was under the impression that it used to be that information in written records was outside the purview of the Data Protection Act until it became "held in electronic systems". Of course if a digital camera was used by the PI then I guess the photography is captured by the Act. (If there is another "Privacy" Act that the ICO is responsible for then there may be infringement but the report said Data Protection Act.)

        And Yes I would authorise investigation if I believed an act of fraud was taking place. If that makes me a moron then I'm happy to be one.

        1. Oldgroaner

          Re: A Morons perspective

          Caerffili and 'protect public money' are words that don't normally turn up in the same paragraph. A little Googling will reveal some very iffy activities! See 'What you are all missing' below and follow up the links.

        2. Jagged

          Re: A Morons perspective

          Things that are acceptable for the council to do are to request a doctors certificate and to conduct "back to work" interviews. What is not acceptable, is for them to conduct any kind of surveillance. If they suspect the individual is not ill, then that is a form of benefits fraud and should be passed to the appropriate agencies (of which the council is not one).

          I would bet they had no reason to suspect the individual and were just "fishing" and should be appropriately penalised IMO

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: A Jagged perspective

            " If they suspect the individual is not ill, then that is a form of benefits fraud and should be passed to the appropriate agencies (of which the council is not one)."

            Wrong on two counts, my friend. First this was about sick leave from the council as an employer, so the benefits issue doesn't arise, and second, if there were a benefits issue, the local authority is responsible for housing benefit which is usually concurrently claimed in long term "can't work" scenarios.

            My wife works with a colleague who always has the week before Christmas off. I'd be quite happy for my employers to waste their money verifying that the very, very few days I have off sick are legit, and I'd be more than pleased if the CCTV vans parked up outside my wife's colleague's house to make sure she was properly laid up.

            There's lots of people with genuine health issues. But sadly there's also lots of fucking dossers who think that a sicky is part of their contract, and who don't give a shit about the other people who have to pick up their work. In most white collar office work it can wait until the ill person/skiver gets back, in delivery jobs some poor bastard has to do their job and somebody else's.

            Not that I'm defending Caerphilly council, who (unless there's some history) were clearly harassing their own staff.

        3. Looper
          FAIL

          Re: Yes, the Moron confirmed his perspective

          What kind of PI in a case like this would NOT use a digital camera for evidence? You are full of supposition and assumption, and you know what that is the mother of...

        4. fruitoftheloon

          @Barrie: Re: A Morons perspective

          Barrie,

          since 2001 paper records have also been under the scope of the DPA...

          Regards,

          j

          1. Barrie Shepherd

            Re: @Barrie: A Morons perspective

            My bad then - I'm in Australia so have not kept up to date on all aspects of the Data Protection laws/scope.

        5. Sir Sham Cad

          Re: perception

          "misuse of sick leave in the public service is perceived as high by many people."

          ARGH! Not this bullshit again! X is perceived as being Y therefore X must = Y.

          NO! A perception from people who are far removed from the situation on the ground is no more than vague, if not baseless speculation and can FUCK RIGHT OFF!

          It sounds to me as if the employee had scheduled meetings with HR/Occ Health for interim assessments (just as I had when off work with stress years ago) and some paranoid knobend heard some 3rd hand hearsay and decided 2+2=735247402 for large values of "2" and "perceived" that she was trying to get out of the assessments which means she must be hiding something, OMG it's all true I'm so right she's on the fiddle argh get me inch high private eye and a bottle of scotch fo rmy nerves!

        6. nsld

          Re: A Morons perspective

          Barrie

          The issue with data protection in the EU is one of proportionality and necessity,

          When the data controller is collecting data for the purposes they are registered for and an employee has been signed off for a defined period by a Doctor then it would not be proportionate to spy on the employeee during that period without any direct evidence of wrongdoing, it would also not be meet any of the general tests within the DPA guidance.

          The issue for this council was that they had no evidence of wrongdoing and therefore the collection of sensitive personal information was neither reasonable or proportionate.

        7. hplasm
          Facepalm

          Re: A Morons perspective

          "If that makes me a moron then I'm happy to be one."

          Most morons are.

        8. Dave Bell

          Re: A Morons perspective

          There have been at least two Data Protection Acts, 1984 and 1998, and the second includes "relevant filing systems" which would cover paper records. There is an exemption for criminal investigation, but it doesn't look as though there was anything sufficient to invoke that. And so it falls foul of the Data Protection Principles.

          Just looking over the Act, it might have been possible to set out a reason for doing this, but the Council apparently didn't even bother. I've seen some pretty sweeping permission requests from Councils, amounting to a request to ignore the law. And, with more and more privatisation of services, I really don't like how such attitudes could work out.

      2. Joey M0usepad Silver badge

        dpa

        @bigtimehustler

        so by that logic if i send a text to my girlfriend saying "the man across the road is walking his dog" I'm breaching the data protection act?

    2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      "has an employer not the right to determine if an employee is rorting the system?"

      No. If they have these suspicions they should report them to the proper authorities and have an objective investigation started by a third party whose job it is to make these judgements and to keep the information of the individual's activities and private life private.

      The individual is innocent unless proven guilty. There is no reason an employer should be poking about in their private life. If a person's privacy has to be breached it should be done only with the utmost care and attention and by individuals trained to maintain human dignity and respect throughout the process.

      Why is this such a hard concept for so many to grasp? An employee doesn't belong to their employer. And if that employer feels there there is a case to be made for invading an employee's personal life then that situation has to be handled with care, respecting the rights of both parties.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Attending meetings when signed off sick

    Usually an employers insurance policy will not cover them for making a sick employee attend a meeting (due to health and safety requirements), usually they would require a doctor to certify that they were well enough to attend first.

    It seems they probably broke their own health and safety guidelines, is that a first for a council?

    Normally most councils will not do even minor things (that often they are required to do by law) due to them making up a health and safety guideline that the activity contravenes :o

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Ignorance, malice and boredom

    I've known management who would dearly love to have been able to spy on off sick staff. They hear exaggerated or even completely false stories and its like an itch that they're not supposed to scratch.

    My experience involved a popular colleague who was off on a stress related issue. While off she took up running (exercise is good for stress) and around the same time dropped several colleagues from her Facebook profile.

    Within a short period of time rumours started flowing about the exact nature of her illness, why her FB profile was less open and how genuine her illness could be when people had seen her out running and playing sport.

    When she returned to work it all subsided, but the speed with which she went from valued colleague to slacker and back to valued colleague was a wonder to behold.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ignorance, malice and boredom

      Stress is often seen to be close to mental health issues and we all know how well mental health issues are understood don't we?

      Stress can cause a range of sometimes odd and erratic behaviours through to almost no obvious changes at all.

      Unlike the one in your case where the staff member was returned to productive work, it does appear that some employers have little or no interest is trying to keep trained staff health and productive. A second medical opinion, support, guidance, etc are all more likely to (a) find the truth, (b) avoid law suits, (c) ensure a positive outcome, (d) keep other staff 'onside'.

      It does not really matter whether it is a public or a private employer.

      Not withstanding the above, anyone paying for something should have the right to take all reasonable and progressively matched steps to ensure they are getting what they pay for.

      Cautionary note, when I made some strenuous efforts to trim up and get fitter in order to handle some very stressful family issues, - (I should say in my own time) an allegedly qualified practitioner marked me down as manic....

      Some times you just cannot win.

      Deleting Facebook contacts could be seen as a prime step on the way to many people's recovery and should be applauded!

      1. Lyndon Hills 1

        Re: Ignorance, malice and boredom

        Up vote for dig @ facebook

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Ignorance, malice and boredom

        Stress got me in 1992. Stress induced Angina. You think you are having a coronary.

        I took up walking long distances and photography as a way to combat the stress.

        If I were this woman, I'd be taking advice from my Union (Unison) with a view to legal action for invasion of privacy.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mmm, public employee takes 4 weeks (presumably paid leave) off with stress. I think it's worthy of investigating, albeit not necessarily using the methods employed.

    A friend of mine works in HR for the NHS. Extremely long periods of paid leave for flakey reasons are commonplace amongst our 'angels'.

    I'd certainly expect my (private) company to be sceptical if I took a month's leave for "stress" and to investigate what's going on. How many non-working public employees are we expected to pay for?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Have to agree with you

      While their methods were unacceptable, this sort of extended sick leave is rife in a lot of public sector organisations. I have worked at a large Civil Service HR dept in the past and this sort of absence is now treated almost as an entitlement.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Have to agree with you

        Civil Service

        6 months sick leave, return for 6 weeks resets the clock, another 6 months

        Also they get paid full overtime, on the basis that, even though there was no overtime, if there had been they would have done the work anyway

        1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

          Re: Have to agree with you

          Civil Service

          6 months sick leave, return for 6 weeks resets the clock, another 6 months

          Also they get paid full overtime, on the basis that, even though there was no overtime, if there had been they would have done the work anyway

          My partner works for the local Constabulary, as support staff. Her sickness policy states that three instances of sickness in a 12 month period starts a stage 1 disciplinary procedure. This includes single days. She is prone to serious sinus infections, so this presents a problem, and causes a lot of stress for her.

          She previously worked for the courts (i.e. Civil Service), where the policy was similar, and for a charity that supports victims of crime. Their policy was even more draconian.

          I call bullshit.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Have to agree with you@ Loyal Commenter

            "Her sickness policy states that three instances of sickness in a 12 month period starts a stage 1 disciplinary procedure. "

            Likewise my wife in the NHS. But they don't do anything ultimately as part of the process, or they do so very selectively. So it's effective at harassing the genuinely ill, and scaring the weak willed potential sicky-ist but totally ineffective against the hardened dossers.

            I've worked in both public and private sectors, and the public sector are long on policies that they selective enforce or ignore, and completely oblivious to sacking the useless and encouraging the dedicated.

          2. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

            Re: Have to agree with you

            Yep? the modern civil service at its caring best....

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Have to agree with you

          Maybe 20 years ago.... Not now... not today. You clearly have NO first hand knowledge.

          Its funny how many seem to be experts on non existent "perks" available in both the civil service and the Railway Industry. Must be all that time sitting in the office drinking coffee and reading the rantings of the Daily Fail - another bunch who need to get a clue about reality - but hey the truth is nowhere near as sensational is it?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Have to agree with you @AC

        Here in the US we have similar issues with "Public Sector" employees. Way more benefits than the private sector and no appreciable oversight is a recipe for abuse.

        Some school district employees in Buffalo even got elective cosmetic surgery benefits (Breast enlargement) and the taxpayer had to pay for it.

        Private sector sick benefits are almost non-existent unless federally mandated so there is a huge disparity.

        However, surveilling ones home without a warrant (private or public entities) has been determined to be a violation of the right to privacy and the Fourth Amendment and any info is inadmissible in court. The determination should apply to alot of cases.

        See EFF link; https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/12/federal-court-agrees-eff-throws-out-six-weeks-warrantless-video-surveillance

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Have to agree with you @AC

          In what way do you think US federal law has any jurisdiction over what happens in Wales? Or have I missed the announcement of Wales becoming the 51st state of the Union!!

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Have to agree with you @AC

          The issues you relate to are not in play in the UK. Employment law sees rights and protections chipped away year on year. The 2 systems are not comparable anyhow, we have certain rights and entitlements (again being stolen from us by administrative measures) predicated on payments in addition to income tax which for most are deducted at source. The average civil service employee here has no access to the sort of insurances you talk of - unless they pay for them privately.

          Your Bill of Rights protections do not apply outside the US so again are not relevant here, For us - without a historic piece of legislation to offer protection - this is covered under our data protection laws and could also see a successful case in the ECHR as at this level it can probably be shown to be grossly disproportionate and an invasion of the right to privacy in family life

      3. Da Weezil

        Re: Have to agree with you

        That might be the norm in CS HR depts, however... for those "at the coalface"

        Days 1-5 require a daily "sick call" to be made to the office, after day 5 a Doctors certification is required, and calls then become weekly from line manager to employee - regardless of the certification, this even happens when surgery is involved with a "known" recovery time.

        After 4 weeks a face to face interview takes place, at which point the Dept has the option to refer employee to their internal contractors for examination.

        After 8 days continuous sickness or 2 instances of any length (even 2 single days) within 12 months it becomes disciplinary matter, which kicks in a 12 month "attendance monitoring" which will lead to further processes if health continues to be an issue - like when the office hero comes in with a nasty virus and spreads it to all their colleagues - who in turn spread it to their families. As the partner of a civil servant working under this regime I get so sick and tired of hearing people droning on about things that they clearly have ZERO knowledge about or generalising about the good deals that a tiny minority may enjoy.

        Employers do NOT own you and surveillance of this nature should be a last result for most extreme cases. This over-reaction seems to be a complete waste of the public funding that people have been wittering on about here. The sad thing is that when councilors and local authority executives are caught making whoopee with public funds there are few consequences beyond a golden handshake - see Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire - 2 neighbouring Welsh councils with similar issues.

      4. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

        Re: Have to agree with you

        Oh really? and how long ago was ' in the past', please do reacquaint yourself into the modern civil service.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Lazy, good for nothing wasters.....

      "I'd certainly expect my (private) company to be sceptical if I took a month's leave for "stress" "

      I guess you're the kind of self appointed medical expert who doesn't concider 'stress' to be a real illness, I hope everything remains happy and wonderful in your nice little world...

    3. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      A friend of mine works in HR for the NHS. Extremely long periods of paid leave for flakey reasons are commonplace amongst our 'angels'.

      Other things that are commonplace in the NHS:

      - High stress environment

      - Long working hours

      - Unsociable shift patterns

      - Exposure to people with infectious diseases

      Although most of those probably don't apply to the HR bods...

      1. Mephistro

        (@ Loyal Commenter)

        Well, there seems to be two -as of now- NHS's "HR bods" reading this thread, hence the downvotes :-).

        I've several friends and clients working for the Spanish equivalent of the NHS. From the histories they tell, your comment is totally spot on. In the best of times it's a really stressing job, involving all the factors you listed and then some more -e.g. 'departmental politics' and backstabbing.

        During the height of the last financial crisis, the staff working hours were raised a lot, causing lots and lots of stress-related leaves. In those cases, the management -usually politicians, in the topmost levels- resorted to tactics that can only be described as bullying against the workers on leave, further worsening the issue. Several of those cases are in the courts right now.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re:

        I agree also consider that for some people we really taking life and death situation. If you are treating people with immune deficiency issues for example your threshold for coming to work with a cold might be a little different than the average office worker.

        Sad to say HR systems in the NHS don't always seem to recognise this, I recall that at one point they complained that almost all the staff in an ICU had above average sick leave.

    4. Triggerfish

      Investigating stress

      There's no problem with an employer investigating why someone is off for stress, in fact I think they have a duty to do so and see if they can mitigate it if its work related and I have also seen some people take the piss working in public sector jobs tends to make it easier because they tend to be more forgiving than the private sector.

      However siccing the Pinkertons on them as the first step (rather than asking them say) is a little out of order.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      In every job I have experienced, including civil service, one can have just a couple of days off without a medical certificate. I imagine that the employee had seen a medical practitioner and presented the certificate. One has to assume that the medical professional is at least as competent and honest as the manager.

      Of course, it is quite possible for the idle manager to visit the employee or to telephone them or arrange a meeting on their return.

      The sort of management that resorts to such practices is the sort repsonsible for poorly motivated employees and inaduate work in the first place.

      By the way, why this jealousy and dislike of civil servants? I should say that running public services, such as roads, rubbish collection, planning laws, schools, libraries, social services is indisputably more important than working on a computer to smooth the sales of computer games or rubber ducks or whatever you, in your private business employment, do. So I want the best, well motivated people doing it. If you think it is such an easy job for such wonderful rewards, get a job in that area and stick at it in the face of denigration from people such as yourself. But I assume that, really, you know the job is not so easy or well rewarded, so you stay away.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Ah, the idea that it is more noble to be a public employee than a private one.

        Who do you think generates the money for the public sector employees to get paid?

        Yes, there are public services that generate income, but on the whole that is not their raison d'etre. And nor should it be. But if there's no private sector employees generating wealth and paying taxes there's no money to pay the public sector employees.

        So, yes, "working on a computer to smooth the sales of computer games or rubber ducks or whatever you do" is absolutely as important as being a doctor or policeman or fireman. Not more, but certainly not less.

        OK, we could move to a system where there *is* only public sector work, but that formula appears to be pretty much discredited globally.

      2. nsld

        Rose tinted spectacles

        If you want the best, well motivated people working for local authorities then the first step would probably be to sack around 90% of the long serving incumbents and replace them with competent, well trained people.

        Once you see from the inside just how badly local authorities are run, the waste, the corruption and the inept nature of the people you will understand why so many council and local government projects fail dismally, go over budget or get quietly scrapped.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @ AC - What's to dislike about civil servants?

        How long have you got?

        - They are a monopoly provider, they have no concept of competition, providing value for money, continuous improvement, customer satisfaction or any of the things a competitive business would strive for.

        - They have no idea about efficiency

        - They waste money at the end of each financial year just to maintain next year's budget

        - They just get more money when they fail

        - They are rewarded for failure

        - They don't appear to accountable

        - Their attitude stinks (eg DVLA)

        - They think they are always right

        - Many are jobsworths. For many it's just a job. For some, their job is to justify their existence

        - They appear to be ethically challenged eg covering up evidence of negligence, criminality, abuse etc whenever the ends justifies the means

        Did I miss anything out?

        Yes Minister was funny in its day - not quite so funny when it's taxpayers money at stake. YM was apparently a documentary.

        Public service - they've heard of it. Putting customers first :/

    6. Triggerfish

      Hmmn medical angels with stress, well I know one who had attended an accident crush damage and the poor guys face was so mashed they couldn't intubate. Another one they had a young lad in who had tried to hang himself didn't manage it but caused so much damage that he died later, they had to explain to the parents it was to late. They have never mentioned the things they have to deal with when its a really young kids but I know its hard on them.

      Try having a word with some of those angels and what they deal with, frankly stress is not surprising some of their stories I think would leave me curled up in a ball crying.

  7. The Mole

    I'd expect my private company to expect a sick note (or nowadays a fitness for work note) detailing from a doctor that in the doctors expert medical opinion the employee needs to be signed off for whatever reason. Once they have that note I'd expect them to either trust that doctors note, or if they have doubts (and as most contracts explicitly allow) request a second opinion paid for by the company. That is the correct process to investigating suspect sickness leave. Jumping to intrusive (and presumably expensive) surveillance within 4 weeks certainly isn't the correct appoach. More advanced employees may would instead spend that money on looking at what it is in their processes and workplace that is causing the stress and/or providing counselling/stress management resources to the employee to help them cope.

    Certainly I strongly doubt public and private companies differ greatly in how they handle stress and other long term sickness - though from personal experiences I know the stress placed on public employees is often much higher and there seems to be (on average, etc etc) less capable managers.

    1. Gordon 10
      Thumb Down

      You would expect wrong

      You'd be wrong on the first of those assumptions in the UK.

      You can self-certify for the first 7 days of an illness and the company can do nothing to force you to get a note from a doctor. In fact most doctors these days will refuse to give you one.

      https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave

    2. fishman

      Long time off

      I worked for the US government. If you were off for more than 3 days you were supposed to get a note from a doctor. But sometimes I would be off for a whole week if I was horribly sick and never had a note.

      You could accumulate sick leave. I was under the old retirement system, where saved up sick leave could count for your length of service. So I tried to use sick leave as sparingly as possible. When I retired, I had almost 1 1/2 years of sick leave saved up.

  8. Heisenberg

    I hate to be harsh, but there's something I've noticed. Now, I have had less than four weeks off sick in total over my entire career, spanning more than fifteen years. I have also never heard of any colleague of mine taking excessive amounts of time off for anything other than the C word. Certainly not for "Stress". Mind you, I've only ever worked in the private sector.

    So what is it about life in the public sector that makes it making it so much more "stressful" ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      So what is it about life in the public sector that makes it making it so much more "stressful"

      impossible targets! :)

      ...as if they were any different to impossible targets set to employees of private companies outsourced by public sector to meet those targets...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You've hardly worked long enough

      So your in your early 30's.

      Wait another ten years when your employers think your too old and should be put on the scrap heap (when you probably have a mortgage and family support) then you'll know what stress is.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: You've hardly worked long enough

        Perhaps the £80/month of taxpayers' money for your first child will help reduce the stress?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/sickness-absence-in-the-labour-market/2014/rpt---sickness-absence-in-the-labour-market.html

      The above ONS link should explain some of the differences between public and private sector sick rates. For example more women employed in the public sector, age of staff etc.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "So what is it about life in the public sector that makes it making it so much more "stressful" ?"

      Not having gilt-edged pensions? Maybe not.

      Not having 7 weeks annual paid leave? Again, maybe not.

      Having spent a brief period (2 months) working for a council the thing I really noticed was the huge beaurocracy and lack of efficiency in everything they do. A private company making every process so drawn out would be bust within weeks.

    5. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

      I have had less than four weeks off sick in total over my entire career, spanning more than fifteen years. I have also never heard of any colleague of mine taking excessive amounts of time off for anything other than the C word. Certainly not for "Stress".

      Then you are lucky enough to not have been bullied by your manager/employer.

      I've been in my current job for over 8 years and not had a day off sick. In my previous job, I was signed off sick with stress and anxiety and put on antidepressants. This was not due to me being a workshy layabout, but due to a systematic bullying and victimisation by my line manager.

      I managed to leave, and find a better job, where I am treated as a human (to some extent).

      Employers have a duty to their Employees beyond simply paying them a wage. They should not give them an excessive workload, or make them work in unreasonable conditions, and they should not bully or belittle them. I suspect this is what has caused the stress-related illness of this particular council employee.

      1. Heisenberg

        "I have had less than four weeks off sick in total over my entire career..."

        Thanks 'Loyal Commentator', your post actually triggered a memory from the early days when I had a total w@nker of a boss, he was such an ar$e that after a couple of months I thought to myself I'm not putting up with this sh1t and handed my notice in. I guess I was lucky enough that at the time I had no dependants or financial obligations so didn't have to give much thought to it at all.

        Were I in such a situation now it might be very different and I can imagine if the option to just leave was not there then life would quickly become an unbearable living hell...

    6. fruitoftheloon
      Thumb Down

      @Heisenberg

      Heisenberg,

      that is nice for you, as you state that you haven't worked in the public sector (in my opinion, only half in jest that can be an oxymoron anyway), I wonder how well qualified you are to speak about working in the public sector.

      One has had the 'good fortune' to have worked in both camps at various points...

      J

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What is this strange obsession with sick leave???

      So nothing bad has happened to you? Good luck to you! But it's just luck. I've had time off because of measles, German measles, chickenpox, broken bones, epilepsy, etc. - does that make me a "worse" employee than you???

      I have recently seen CVs from people boasting how little sick leave they've taken ... do you know what I think when I see that - jobsworth!!! I care about what you can deliver, just showing up at work is not an achievement.

      Next you'll be on about all those people who get to take more bereavement leave than you ...

      END RANT

    8. DavCrav

      "I have also never heard of any colleague of mine taking excessive amounts of time off for anything other than the C word."

      It took me a while to realize you meant cancer, and not that your colleagues were cunts.

  9. AbortRetryFail
    Coat

    More thought required

    Sounds like they should have considered the implications of their spying more Caerphilly.

    (I have already got my coat and am on my way out)

    1. AbelSoul
      Coat

      Re: ... more Caerphilly

      You and your cheesy jokes.

    2. Bloakey1

      Re: More thought required

      One might say they welshed on their duty to their employees.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: More thought required

        Your racist usage is not welcomed, neither is the upvotes you've gathered. Readers might care to view other stories of how the ruling execs at Caerffili council have managed to pay themselves wage increases way above inflation over the past few years, all under the "watchful eye" of a "socialist Labour" council.

        Caerphilly council (labour) mottos :

        "Don't do as I do, do as I say...."

        "Don't rock the boat, boys, we're in power..."

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Makes a change from them using snooping and terrorism laws to spy on people not clearing up their dog mess.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Plus ca change

    I temped at Camden Council during school holidays in the early 90s, entering a vast backlog of employee timesheets into a new (but already obsolete) system. My professional IT debut, but I digress.

    On my first day, perhaps to pep me up, or perhaps to explain why I was about to become so familiar with the S button, I was told how Camden Council had the most generous sick leave of any employer in the land. It was sincerely explained to me how essential this was, because of the very large number of days that Camden Council workers needed to take off sick.

    Same shit, different day.

  12. Bloakey1

    What You Are All Missing.

    What you seem to be missing on this one is the fact that this kind of carry on is endemic within Caerphilly council and that year on year they get their wrists slapped.

    It is probably not even a sinister attempt at surveillance legal or otherwise of an employee, it is probably down to basic corruption and back handers. By giving these company nice juicy contracts for security and surveillance, the higher ups are fleecing the nest for the future when they can slip across to the private sector on tracks greased by public money.

    Caerphilly Council = corruption in my book, see below:

    http://www.socialistpartywales.org.uk/news175.shtml

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/concerns-raised-over-procedures-used-5391869

    Etc. etc.

  13. heyrick Silver badge

    The employee had only been off work with a sick note for anxiety and stress

    To all the people who think meh "stress", ask yourselves, if this is an indication of how they value (and trust) their staff, what do you think it's like working for them?

  14. Joey M0usepad Silver badge
    Trollface

    seeing as "stress" and "anxiety" are imaginary illnesses made up by those whose upper lips arnt stiff enough , I have hard time working out how the detective would find any evidence?

    1. John 110

      Nice choice of icon there Joey.

    2. fruitoftheloon
      FAIL

      @Joey M0usepad - f'wit in residence

      Joey,

      you can fuck right off...

      So I have been imagining my life falling apart over the last four years, silly me.

      For further info, feel free to read/ignore/dismiss haughtily my posts on El Reg.

      If you have kids you may want to research alternate techniques to the 'stiff upper lip' when they need or ask for help (assuming they will bother asking you at all that is...)

      I hope you and yours never have to deal with serious mental illness, because if you do, and things get really tough, someone may end up homeless and then living in a cardboard box.

      /Rant over

      J

      1. ukgnome

        Re: @Joey M0usepad - f'wit in residence

        Whilst the troll has obviously eaten well just before Christmas he has a point (of sorts)

        It is very difficult to tell if someone is suffering from anxiety or stress by reading their facebook status, and likewise meeting them in the street.

        Mental illness isn't like a broken leg or botched boob job. It doesn't have a visual indicator normally. So yeah, the whole hiring of a PI is a pretty useless exercise.

        Sorry to hear you have bouts of stress fruitoftheloon, I know that shits real and not many you tell will ever come close to understanding. I wish you good days, fuck the retards!

        1. fruitoftheloon

          @ukgnome Re: @Joey M0usepad - f'wit in residence

          Ukgnome/Joey,

          Chap(s?),

          Thank you for your considered reply/statements, one is (regretably) sometimes a little over-sensitive when in the midst of folk that seem to think that mental illness is something that could or should be dealt with in a 'light' fashion. Granted it is not easy for a layman to diagnose mental illness, the pros can do it though.

          In hindsight I think my response was a little over-exhuberant...

          For disclosure purposes, i have been claiming esa benefit since dec 2013, i sent my 'what can you do/not do' questionnaire to ATOS (as in they don't give one) in March, now just as benefit is about to run out (you only get it for 12 months initially as Atos are meant to have completed your assesment within that period) after I nag Atos on the phone I get an appointment within 3 weeks.

          And of course I can't carry on claiming esa as I should have had my assesment by then which would state what the longer benefit option is...

          Isn't this fun?

          J

  15. Zog_but_not_the_first
    Joke

    Suspicious behaviour

    I expect suspicions were aroused when he changed his login password from "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwyll-llantysiliogogogoch" to "correcthorsebatterystaple"

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    All of the private companies I have worked for in the UK have had a fairly simple policy on sick leave; get a medical certificate (after the first few days) and you're covered on full pay for as long as the certificate lasts / is renewed.

    The actual mechanics are that the company gets a contribution from the government for the first 6 months or so, after which the company invokes insurance covering their workforce for absences due to ill health lasting longer than that. I suspect there may be a legally negotiated exit after ~18 months if there is no prospect of a return to work,

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I can't believe

    I've read all these comments, and haven't seen one by any of those people who say, 'If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear' saying, 'well, this has made me think again'.

    No one is safe.

  18. RISC OS

    Nice to see that the STASI

    is alive and well in wales

  19. Stevie

    Bah!

    "I've never taken a sick day since I started here. Everyone around me goes off sick several times a year, but not me."

    Delivered obliviously, in a nasal voice thick with phlegm.

    And Typhoid Nigel he thinks he *saves* the place money with his "attend at all costs" policy.

    1. chris 17 Silver badge

      Re: Bah!

      I remember when i had Man Flu at my last job, the IT Director told me to stay at home and rest for as long as it took, but would i mind the occasional call if needed, of course i said that'd be fine, cue 5 days of working from my sick bed, attending conference calls and working as normal. Similar thing happened the other week, the week before 2 guys from my office where out with flu,the following week i was covering a US shift in the UK from home and was ill too, working certainly beats daytime drivel TV. Did the same when i was recovering from knee surgery, used the sick leave to catch up on things i couldn't when in the office, ensured i was ahead of the curve when i came back, my public sector colleagues where outraged when they found out, just didn't tell them when i had my second & third knee ops.

      All said and done, if you need to take a cerebral brake then do so, its better to be rested and fit for work than out of sorts and tired. a career change or brake can often help too. Its important to find a role that ticks your boxes & that should ultimately tick the employers boxes

  20. This post has been deleted by its author

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