back to article Get a job in Germany – where most activities are precursors to drinking

In Germany, employers are keen on certifications, the money's good and if you want to, you can spend weekends rolling wheels down country lanes. So says this week's expat superstar, Brit-turned-German-resident William Durkin, who adds that almost everything in Germany eventually leads to a drink. Or five. Over to you, William …

  1. Mike 125

    >> Don't hang around with other expats too much and also try to learn the language.

    Agree, and especially avoid expats who only hang around other expats.

    The Germans I've worked with are a great bunch. Culturally, we're very close in more ways than we like to admit. Work hard, play hard.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I spent 2 years there from 1980-82 (USAF) and the German culture I saw in the country where I was stationed was remarkably similar to the US. Except for the lack of curve-banking on the country highways. Always felt like I was going to tip over in my big old Detroit metal-mountain.

    2. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

      Don't hang around with other expats too much and also try to learn the language

      Isn't that the key to settling into any foreign country?

    3. Bloakey1

      "Agree, and especially avoid expats who only hang around other expats."

      <snip>

      I totally and utterly agree with you both. I speak quite a few languages and I am horrified by the British attitude of "they have to speak English to me". I love my languages and I am proud that I am a bit of a polyglot. Most Brits do not even believe that I speak languages fluently, they also have problems identifying the language when I am speaking it.

      I am currently in Portugal and speak the language, hang out with Portuguese and in Portuguese watering holes and love it (pint of Magners 2 quid, pint of lager 80p). The amount of times I have been told by Brits that Portuguese is too hard to learn is beyond belief.

      Sooo, get out there, hang out with locals, enjoy the culture, learn the language and if you find it difficult, alcohol helps as it represses grammatical inhibitions brought on by a UK education. Stuff is, is, it, issons, issez, issent up teachers arse and just speak the language 'like wot it ought to be spoken' <sic>.

      1. Tapeador

        Stuff is, is, it, issons, issez, issent and just speak the language 'like wot it ought to be spoken'

        I like all this but surely you have to have SOME words to begin with - so I'd ask which ones and where should you get them from, how do you get to that point where you CAN just benefit from ordinary conversation? How many times do you let yourself ask in conversation what a word is, and doesn't the explanation just lead to more words you don't understand?

        1. Bloakey1

          Re: Stuff is, is, it, issons, issez, issent and just speak the <snip title too long>

          Start by learning I, me, want etc.There is no shame in asking "me want go toilet" or "want two beers I". The real tipping point is when you have enough vocabulary to say "how do you say this or what do you call that in <insert language>?".

          I spent years at school trying to learn French and knew the grammar intimately. It took a few smack in the mouth from a Legion sergent <sic> to make me learn French and really want to learn it in a proper manner.

          Once you have the first language the others generally come easier as they tend to be similar, so for Example French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese sit well together. Believe it or not English and Portuguese sit well together with a few thousand common words but will slightly different endings e.g. Attention - Atencao etc.. Once you learn how to speak the language then the ability to write, spell and do grammatical exegesis comes along with it.

          1. Tapeador
            Thumb Up

            Re: Stuff is, is, it, issons,

            Great stuff- thank you.

        2. big_D Silver badge

          Re: Stuff is, is, it, issons, issez, issent and just speak the language

          @Tapeador, when I arrived, I was dumped in deepest, darkest Bavaria, in a small village where nobody spoke a work of English and I was left on my own (girlfriend ran off, once she realised I was actually moving to Germany!).

          German friends helped me with the paperwork for the first year and I managed to struggle through shopping without too much problem and bought other things by pointing and learning words as I went along.

          What really helped was spending 9 months in a Language School in Munich, full time, before looking for a new job. Not everybody can do afford to do that, but even if you have to do it as an evening course, it is the best way.

          I tried learning German before I left the UK, but because I didn't use it every day, not much stuck. I could count to 10 and say hello, goodbye, please and thank you... That was about it, when I arrived.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Stuff is, is, it, issons, issez, issent and just speak the language [....]

          > I like all this but surely you have to have SOME words to begin with - so I'd ask which ones and where should you get them from

          "Please", "Thank You". Then what you need is a big smile and a genuinely friendly and humble attitude, so that people will want to talk to you in the first place, let alone going through the trouble of dealing with someone who does not (initially) speak their language.

          > how do you get to that point where you CAN just benefit from ordinary conversation?

          Practice. You engage in conversation at every opportunity. At first, those will be really simple conversations if in the local language, but you will gradually expand your grasp of the language and be able to go more transcendental soon enough. Similarly, if interacting with locals who speak one of your languages, you start interspersing words and expressions in the local language (this has a big emotional impact on both speaker and listener), then you may occasionally switch languages for whole sentences, then for an entire interaction, ... eventually you switch languages completely almost without even realising.

          As someone has said, it helps to be an extrovert and a relative lack of inhibition, but most of all, you need to be likeable, friendly, and respectful.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Agreed, I worked in Germany years ago. Absolutely fantastic, awesome place. I was the only non-German in the company I worked for and they couldn't have made me more welcome.

      German is a hard language to learn though:

      1) Because of the way the verbs stack up at the end of the sentence (this takes ages to get used to).

      2) Because the German people, being a nation of precision engineers, will warmly correct every mistake you make even when the mistake is years ahead of your ability.

      3) As soon as you start speaking German the other person knows you are English and often will often reply in English to either help you, or to practice their English. The amount of surreal conversations I had where I spoke German and the German person spoke English was unbelievable.

      But please believe me, I make those comments with respect. The German people were superb.

    5. big_D Silver badge

      Where I work, the people are often impressed with the quality of my German (may German fiance less so). I live in an area that was a hub for the British military and a lot of them stayed here after they had served their time. Some have been here for over 20 years and can speak little or no German.

      I had a similar start to Mr. Durkin, I was made redundant in the UK (company downsized 2500 employees) and I took my money and moved to Germany to start again. Food is very cheap, housing is cheap, cars hold their prices.

      The prices had held up well even before the cash for clunkers deal. The UK seems to throw their cars away after a couple of years and they are worth next to nothing. We bought a 2005 Micra this year as a second car, that cost around 3,000€. On the other hand, my previous car was a "Tageszulassung", registered by the garage and sold as "nearly new", with 4KM on the clock. That saved me nearly 6K€ on a 30K€ car. The car before that was an ex demonstrator, with 2000KM and 3 months on the clock, that saved me around 12K€.

      That said, wages (and cost of living) are generally relatively low, once you are outside the big cities. My 3 bed house was larger than the one I sold in the UK, it cost a 20% less in 2010 than my old house in Southampton in 2001.

      Heavy drinking isn't the norm - most of the people I know don't drink that much, only on the works do or Father's Day (Ascention Day in the UK), which is when they take the Bollerwagen on the small country roads and throw balls around and drink schnapps. Carnival season is also big in some regions (especially around Cologne).

  2. Christian Berger

    BTW if you are thinking about moving to Germany...

    I know a company that's looking for a decent programmer with some knowledge of networking.

    Here's the ad:

    http://www.hfo-telecom.de/karriere/stellenangebote

    It's an interesting job in the VoIP area with a diverse range of tasks requiring problem solving skills. So one day you might just be debugging VoIP calls for customers finding out what happens if CPE gets a new IP address while the telephone is ringing, while on other days you might be looking for a bug causing T.38 fax negotiations to be mangled in horrible ways.

    Speaking German is of advantage, but it's a simple language.

    Ohh I nearly forgot, the company sponsors 3 festivities with free alcohol a year. :)

  3. Jean Le PHARMACIEN

    Good luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

    Thanks to an almost universally EU-hating press and UKIP/Farage successes - you may find your stay in Germany somewhat curtailed and/or much more difficult to move into a job there (or anywhere else in Europe).

    Psersonally I find our attitude to EU membership akin to the state of Delaware saying to the rest of the US "We're not part of you any more - much more interested in the rest of the world". Geographically and culturally daft.

    1. Tapeador

      Re: Good luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

      Yeah it is messed up. But it's not really "us" per se. It's a vocal minority whom politicians are obliged to pander to, solely because of lots of Kipper swing votes in marginal constituencies. Honestly there is not a true word spoken about Europe, the EU, the ECHR, the ECJ from day to day or week to week in any CCHQ press release or within the right-leaning sections of the press. It's all a constructing a fictional EU bogeyman to rage against, and latterly also to reassure that section of voters who've BOUGHT all that made-up shite.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

        Yup. For Mosley the enemy to energise his supporters was the Jews and their supposed control of the banks. For Farage it's the European immigrants and their supposedly controlling us via the EU. The similarities are marked. His underlings like Reckless say things to energise the base (we're going to send immigrants back where they came from) then Farage claims that isn't official UKIP policy, but not before the dog whistle has sounded.

        Hopefully, if Farage wins, if only by enabling the Conservative Far Right to run the country, the rest of Europe won't send people home in retaliation. Because unlike us, they aren't prepared to wreck their economies to pander to the new Blackshirts.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

      I can not understand why any Brit would want to be confined to a portion of the British Isles. Even white van man may get upset when he can no longer nip across the channel for his beer and baccy.

      The problem seems to be that the British excuses for "media" and politicians seem to think they are a subset of the USA, probably on a par with Puerto Rico and can not accept that Dover is within swimming distance of that feared continent - feared presumably because the average Brit fears he can not keep up (wrongly if we can sort out our education system and stop trying to outflank the extreme right in extremes of poverty and wealth).

      How pathetic that the main political parties spend their efforts aping the Farago mob.

      In my experience, German speaking parts of Europe are fun, friendly, culturally compatible. The language is a clear relative (well, antecedent) of English and a little open mindedness soon gets one into a rough, conversational mode that is appreciated and leads to greater ability. What is more, shock, horror: thanks to the numbers of foreign workers in Germany (more, I believe than in GB), in much of E. Europe, Turkey and others, German will get you further than English.

      As for the American, above, finding the culture similar to his: no surprise there, German and Yiddish immigration to the USA was critical and formative to its success, culture and version of English. There is even a claim, probably mythical, that at one point the USA government dithered between opting for German or English as the official language.

      Historically, the British were wanderers and adventurers who settled and worked all over the world, not least throughout Europe (sort of reverse migration from earlier times): While some two million are currently doing that in Europe, what happened to our spirit for the rest?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

      The problem with the UK and Europe is we should be trying to embrace Europe and try to lead it in the way that Germany do, but instead we elect idiots like Farge who go on jollies to Brussels and just sit there with their arms folded while saying "this is bull****"

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

        and taking the money, some of them not even bothering to sit there but using it to drink beer and publicise themselves in Britain. They should lose the salary if they can not demonstrate that they do the job for their constituents and the assembly.

    4. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Good luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

      UKIP is a symptom, not the problem.

      When the UK was a member of the common market, it worked well. A trading bloc of independent nations, ensuring a level playing field and free movement of people and goods, it played to Britain's strengths.. OK we all had a laugh at some half-assed rules inverted by politicians with an axe to grind but overall it worked (I've been an expat for over 20 years, working in another EU country).

      The problem many people in the UK have (and it isn't just the Tory right*) is with the "ever closer union" of the EU, and the career politicians who want to create a US of Europe, mostly to assuage their own vanity: "Look what I've achieved!". For a very large number of people in the UK that is an unnecessary step too far. They don't see what there is to gain from centralizing political and economic policy between countries who have such different fundamental political and economic philosophies. It plays directly into the hands of the populist parties like UKIP, Front National, etc. who will jump on any passing bandwagon. It's significant that the two most anti-EU parties in France are the Front National and the Communists.

      The real threat to expat jobs isn't from any EU-bashing party, it's from the economic stagnation that's been destroying jobs in the eurozone for years. Not only does the lack of growth means there are fewer jobs for everyone, but it does lead to the nationalism exemplified by the "France for the French" slogan of the FN, when jobs are in short supply there is always a backlash against 'foreigners' taking 'our' jobs. The best way to resolve that is to make sure there are plenty of jobs available, which means growth, not centrally-planned economics by political diktat.

      * I say not limited to the Tory right, because this isn't just a "tory" issue. There used to be a group of UK voters known as "working-class tories", stereotyped by Alf Garnet in the 70s sitcom "'Til Death us do part", but of course not all so exaggerated. These were people who lived in a council house, worked for the 'corporation' or similar, and hadn't been to University. They tended to be nationalistic, loved the Queen (but not the rest of the junior layabout royals), flew the flag at every opportunity, etc. They were determined that their children could to go Uni, could own their house, etc. They used to vote Tory because that sort of mobility was espoused by the post-war Tory party.

      Over time, especially the 60s/70s, Labour worked hard to convince these people to become Labour voters, but that's changing. New Labour firmly put itself in Guardian-reader territory, and Emily Thornberry's "white van" tweet at Rochester last week will drive more of those voters into UKIP territory. I'd say that working-class Labour constituencies have more reason to worry about UKIP than the Tories do at the next election.

      1. Tapeador

        @ Phil O'SophicalRe: Good luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

        UKIP are not a symptom of any call for "ever closer union". Such a call is made by a tiny minority of extremists only, who think that a trade association (which is all it is still, for non-Eurozone members) dependent upon the sovereign authority of member states, can somehow be something else with authority and sovereignty springing from elsewhere. But given the EU is a legal entity, with no power other than the active will of the member states, as laid down in the Treaties, and as expressed in Council and elsewhere by the heads of the member states, it is total fantasy thinking, to imagine that the sovereignty of states could be abolished. It is not possible, legally or politically. It is akin to, and as absurd as saying, you will start a transatlantic budget flight service, by physically pulling yourself into the air, by the act of tugging on your bootstraps.

        There is no genuine fear UKIP are reacting to in this respect. They are stoking fantastical and nonsensical fears, and failing to help their members live in the reality of modern life.

        1. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

          Re: @ Phil O'SophicalGood luck if UKIP/Farage succeed

          I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that sovereignty of states would be abolished, but there is a genuine concern that it will be sidelined in daily life so that countries are unable to run their own economic affairs as they wish. There are a number of politicians who make no secret of their desire for a federal europe (usually with themselves in charge).

          The eurozone is already in a poor economic state, where Germany has the only strong growing economy, and other countries are unable to make the changes they would have done if they'd had economic independence. Within a single country it's accepted that rich regions pay to help poor ones, and although people grumble they're generally OK with that. That isn't the case within the EU as a whole, where there is increasing resentment in successful countries about paying for what they see as the economic incompetence of the poorer ones. There is no widespread feeling of european solidarity, and Europe is moving away from, and not toward, that.

          Perhaps if that solidarity had been built first, on economic success, it might have been possible to make an EU work, but the politicians fiddled the books around the convergence criteria in order to create a eurozone for political, not economic, reasons, and they are now paying the price for that in terms of popular resentment.

          I disagree that UKIP are only "stoking fantastical and nonsensical fears", polls in most EU countries showed increasing dislike and mistrust of the EU institutions long before UKIP were more than a loony fringe, and those concerns are being expressed by people well placed to know the diference between popular hysteria and fact. UKIP is certainly reacting to that and benefiting from it, as are other parties in other countries, but the concerns are real, and predate UKIP. To assume that simply preventing UKIP from "stoking fears" would make the problem go away shows a deep misunderstanding of the issue.

          As for "failing to help their members live in the reality of modern life." that is somewhat patronizing, and is very symptomatic of the paternalistic attitudes people are reacting to. It's the old "if the people don't like it, it just shows they're too stupid to understand it" attitude, which underpinned far too many autocratic regimes.

          Incidentally, I personally would not like the UK to leave the EU, if the EU can indeed be reshaped not to impose a "one size fits no-one" economic policy, and working to that should be a priority. I have very little hope that it can be done before the eurozone implodes, though. Apart from anything else, I am quite sure that the EU "powers that be" will not hesitate to make an example of any country with the temerity to unilaterally leave the EU. The chances of the UE permitting a calm exit into a Norway-like membership of only the EEA, which would probably suit Britain well, are close to zero.

  4. Zog_but_not_the_first
    Thumb Up

    Go West(phalia) young man!

    Sounds great. I've worked with a number of German organisations over the years and have always been impressed with their commitment and solid work ethic. IMHO this has more than a little to do with the fact the boards of companies will be filled with engineers and scientists (including the Managing Director), not bloody accountants!

    A programme ran on several months ago (on Chan 4 I think) comparing a couple of UK organisations with their German counterparts. There was one particularly telling comment by an ordinary German worker on his UK colleagues, "They are always on their phones checking their Facebook and Twitter instead of doing their work.".

    1. Bloakey1

      Re: Go West(phalia) young man!

      <snip>

      ""They are always on their phones checking their Facebook and Twitter instead of doing their work."."

      I saw a job advertised over here for a barman, it said "must be able to work without phone and Internet" .

      That made me laugh, as did the amount of people in Rome that text and drive, even the army and police are at it.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Go West(phalia) young man!

      There is a drawback to Germany for a lot of software/startup companies

      The local authorities, local banks and investors are very supportive of local companies - in industries that they know. They are proud to have supported the local specialization in say dental drills and will happily support any company making dental drills, or even at a stretch anyone else doing similar light engineering. Try and open a software company and they want to know why you don't have any IG Metall reps on your board.

      That is one reason why Berlin is the startup capital, even though other cities have better universities / more skilled people / more jobs - it wasn't really Germany for 50years and the rules don't apply.

      Although scientists and engineers on the board does help with anything that is going to take more than 3months to show a profit - there is a drawback in the respect for authority.

      One common example is teams are trying to decide which technology to use, it will be the one suggested by the person with most qualifications or the most years of service - whatever their actual expertise in the area.

      1. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Go West(phalia) young man!

        It isn't so much industries they don't know, as opposed to uncertainties in their business plans.

        If you actually make something, then you can usually have a good guess at how much money you are going to make, because you know your production costs and you know how much you can sell it for...

        If your business model is, "er, well, erm, we will give it away to start with and erm, well, somewhere along the line we might sell advertising space on the service or maybe, like, a subscription for premium membership," most banks and investors will take a runner.

        A lot of startups just don't know what their market is, let alone how they will monetise it, which is the problem to getting funding. I work at a smallish Germany IT company (55 workers) and they started back in '95 and had no problems getting the business off the ground and are now one of the leading suppliers to the meat industry specifically and the food industry in general. They knew what they wanted to produce, they knew their market and could produce a business plan.

  5. Tom 7

    Germany is a wonderfull place

    but there are two problems - no real ale and the inability of Germans to ignore the rule book.

    German beer is wonderful stuff but it doesnt relax you like a good real ale does and you can see how it started two world wars.

    If the rule book says take two steps forward and you are standing on the edge of a cliff the average German will step off rather than raising their hand and saying there's a problem. This is a great advantage if your rule book is a good one but sometimes....

    Having said that their working time rules are fantastic for employees (and hence companies too). Being told to fuck off on a thursday afternoon when there is fresh snow on the hills because you worked a bit too hard last week really is fantastic for your moral and its amazing how much harder you can work when there is some kind of light at the end of the tunnel.

    1. crisko

      Re: Germany is a wonderfull place

      Couldn't agree more about the morale boost you get when you know your day will end. The Germans seem to have cracked that one before anyone else. I heard Volkswagen implemented a policy where the email servers would stop synchronising with client devices an hour after their shift ended, and only resume again an hour before, the next day. Anyone emailing would also be alerted to the fact that the recipient would not receive this email until [time] the next day.

      I've worked for or have worked closely with US software companies for the last 5-6 years now and I've always felt pressured in to being "always available". In my current company, there are a considerable amount of people who will respond to emails to find themselves work to do at ungodly hours. I've also seen the "I'll get on that 2m", or "Thanks!" emails coming from colleagues at times like 4/5am their time. Seriously!? You couldn't just leave it until the office the next day!? Ridiculous.

      I find myself working a lot. All the time - I'm generally doing 12-13 hours a week day, by the time evening work is added up and at least 10-12 hours at weekends, but I'm really starting to get fed up with it and questioning what it achieves. I am convinced that you work harder within an 8 hour day, knowing that it will be finite - if you've no hope it'll ever end, then you take your foot off the pedal during normal working hours. What's the point? Who could sustain that sort of rate for 80 hours a week, week after week. And, I see that with my American colleagues - lot's of rolling chairs to their colleague's desks and shooting the breeze. Jeez - if you guys just got on with it, you could leave 2 hours earlier every day! But, that's not what'll get you anywhere in America - they like to promote this idea of hard work, but it just means, showing up and staying in the office longer than anyone else. Germany seems like somewhere where hard work is genuinely recognised and efficiency is promoted to enable it. I've often thought about the move to Germany to try and break out of the toxic American capitalist culture that is infecting our shores. I'm not convinced anywhere is immune to this type of thinking though, and the software industry seems particularly bad for it, and perhaps German subsidiaries of US companies suffer from this too.

      The biggest laugh that I've heard recently is, "unlimited vacation". My current employer offers this and it's a complete scam - it's basically a game of chicken - who will take the least holidays. It's actually illegal in the UK due to the fact that it would get employers off the hook to ensure their employees take their minimum 20 days holiday a year, but I can see it being permitted in a few years, especially with the UK's insatiable appetite for all things American. I could see the sneaky idea of unlimited vacation backfiring in Germany, with people generally taking in and around their current allowance, maybe a bit more.

      Guess I needed to rant!

      P.S. Since I typed this, I got two emails from work...on a Sunday afternoon...and for one of them it's 4:25am in their timezone. Ridiculous - this is what I'm talking about!

      1. ecofeco Silver badge

        Re: Germany is a wonderfull place

        Crisko, those kind of hours are not worth it. If you can find a good job in another country that treats you better, get out while you still can.

        The American companies just use you up and then throw you away. You will never be compensated, rewarded or recognized for those kind of hours. What you WILL get is bad health. Something you DO NOT want to have to deal with in the scam joke of the American medical system.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Germany is a wonderfull place

        I've worked for or have worked closely with US software companies for the last 5-6 years now and I've always felt pressured in to being "always available".

        Been there, done that, but for a British company. 60 hour average weeks (including nearly 20 hours a week while on vacation). 24/7/365 callouts with several calls during a typical night. I never had more than 3 hours uninterrupted sleep in 4 years.

        I am convinced that you work harder within an 8 hour day, knowing that it will be finite - if you've no hope it'll ever end, then you take your foot off the pedal during normal working hours.

        I'm convinced you're completely right about this. I used to be so tired all the time that I simply couldn't concentrate for a couple of hours without a break. When you have a limited time to achieve a defines set of goals, it helps to focus the mind.

        Obviously, I left the company where I was expected to work all the time, or at least whenever the company "needed" it. Turns out, they didn't need it as badly as they wanted me to believe - they just hired a couple of people to replace me.

        The biggest laugh that I've heard recently is, "unlimited vacation". My current employer offers this and it's a complete scam - it's basically a game of chicken - who will take the least holidays.

        Where I work now I have a regular finishing time. It's not quite a defined end to the working day, but I can predictably bet I'll be out of the office by 6pm 9 days in 10. No blackberry. No callouts. Unlimited vacation would work quite well for me at the moment as I'd be able to take more than the 25 days on offer currently - with the added benefit of the taxman being paying for half the time off!

        My advice to you is to get out now. No company truly values the horrendous hours, and none seem willing to pay for it, which is indicative of the actual value in which it is regarded. There's a million companies in the world, and you don't have time to work for them all, so why stay somewhere that doesn't treat you fairly?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Germany is a wonderfull place

      I do not agree about Germans and rules. I live in Switzerland that is supposed to be worse. The sense of freedom is wonderful. Beer: Real ale is good. But the sheer breadth and depth of German beers (can drink in a monastery making beer since 1050 for instance) is mind stretching, though the alcohol content is mind-dissolving. Still, Belgian beer knocks the lot into a cocked hat and some East European ones are rather good.

      In practice, people treat rules as guides more successfully than I experienced in GB or other ex British empire places. Indeed, here GB has exactly the reputation for rigidity, doing things in a formal, correct way and being goverened by rules. I found this amusing on arrival. Now I find it just true, whether ln the rush by politicians, newspapers and people to demand a new law for every variant of a problem covered by existing laws or the insanity of excessive application of and adherence to "health and safety", political correctness (better described as political intolerance), "security" and the increasing Americanisation of public morals - many in UK seem to yearn for US levels of nipple-phobia, prurience about child nudity or adult undress even on a beach. No, Great Britain seems to be the prurient, intolerant, rule and convention loving nation.

      The one thing I think British culture still does well is humour, perhaps because I grew up there. I also think the non-urban people are excellent people and the food,.away from the US-style restaurants and chains, is much better than its reputation.

      While I'm at it: what's all this flag waving rubbish? Cameron giving speeches with a Union Flag at his back like some USA or South American president with their national flag? It used to be that only extreme nationalists (patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels) and failing countries indulged in ostentatious flag flying and colourful postage stamps - in inverse proportion to success, wealth and democracy level. Perhaps I just spotted the reason.

      While you can, sieze the freedom to work and live in almost any part of Europe and hope that, if Britain does isolate/imprison itself, your new home is generous enough to let current residents stay.

      1. deadlockvictim

        Re: Germany is a wonderfull place

        You live in Switzerland and you reckon that the British have a problem with flag-waving?

        Have you not noticed that those who live in countries with red and white flags ( CH and Japan as examples) as well those with red, blue and white flags (U.K., France and U.S.A. as examples [1]) are very, very fond of their flag-waving?

        I can't say that Swiss beer did much for me. I stick to Süüremoscht and Jägermeister when I'm out in a pub.

        [1] Can any residents in Norway or Iceland validate or refute my theory?

    3. Mr Handle

      Re: Germany is a wonderfull place

      I had an interesting conversation with a German colleague about "Bad Laws".

      Me: "That is a poorly designed law"

      Her: "But it is the law."

      Me: "But it causes more accidents."

      Her: "But it is the law."

      Me: "There are more deaths because of this law!"

      Her: "But it is the law."

      1. deadlockvictim

        Re: Germany is a wonderfull place

        You were going about it the wrong way. Try this approach:

        me» The law is defective and not behaving as expected.

        her» But it is the Law.

        me» This is true. It requires to be changed though. How do we go about changing it?

        And which point you enter a new conversation.

    4. Bigbird3141

      Re: Germany is a wonderfull place

      I'm completely with you on the rule book front. A firm I had worked for had a German sister company that developed software for a section of our products. We would often find bugs due to operators doing the wrong thing and getting the system in a mess - when we reported the bugs the response would usually be that operators shouldn't be doing that, so it wasn't a bug because they weren't following instructions.

      And as for crossing the road at anything other than a crossing with a green man...

  6. Chris Miller

    I wonder where William is working in Germany (I would guess NRW, in the Cologne-Düsseldorf area)? German Länder are quite distinct - culturally, politically and even economically. There's a world of difference between Hamburg and Munich, and traces of the Ostie approach of 'we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us' persist in former DDR areas.

    1. Zane

      Yep - what is this guy really talking about....

      Well, living in Germany and working here, I tend to claim that most of what William says will not be true at your work place. No, I don't think he's in NRW. My house is expensive, my car is not, my salary could be better (and would be in several places in the UK). And you can get Cadbury at Edeka here - but it's expensive as well.

      So all William is saying might be true for some places in Germany, but I would not generalize too much of it.

      /Zane

    2. stizzleswick
      Boffin

      @Chris Miller

      William's mention of Bosseln means that he is in the northwest, probably near the North Sea coast. That sport is a favourite all along that coast all the way up to Denmark, and inland in Frisia and the Emsland (just north of the Dutch border).

      1. lagaba

        Re: @Chris Miller

        Bit off topic but it sounds very similar to road bowling which is played in County Cork in Ireland.

        1. stizzleswick
          Boffin

          Re: @Iagaba, road bowling

          Actually, you are right, and there is a similar game in Scotland, too. It all has to do with the availability of pub meals featuring kale, and, of course, imbibing irresponsible amounts of high spirits (pun intended)... historically, it may have been a way to build up good spirits (in the psychological sense) during the dark time of the year while at the same time getting in lots of vitamin C (from Kale, which has lots of it, as well as other healthy stuff, and is only available in winter). These days, unfortunately, at least in northern Germany, the Boßeln tournaments are usually reduced to just getting to the nearest pub as quickly as possible to then get stuffed and sauced...

  7. ecofeco Silver badge

    Decent working conditions?

    Someone needs to let the Germans know that treating employees decently is wrong.

    /sarcasm

  8. williamd

    General response to you all

    Hi, William (the interviewee) here. I actually live in the Emsland (well spotted stizzleswick!)

    Like any country, there are regional differences to anything. I have, however, seen quite a wide variety of workplaces across Germany and stand by what I said in the interview. The regional differences are more to do with outlook on life in general. The work ethic is mostly the same in Germany - it seems to be something that is part of the German way of life, although slowly dissolving in the younger generations (or just a sign of me getting older!)

    If you are technically competent and want a new challenge, then moving to Germany is one of your better options. Germany is doing a hell of a lot of growth and the clever companies are aware that they need to spend money on good IT to get to where they want to be.

    As for the UKIP part - I can only watch from the outside in utter despair at how backward a lot of the UK politics seems to be going. Granted, I have a skewed opinion anyway, but the seeing the UK turning its back on Europe is a big mistake in my opinion. The UK isn't as solvent or stable as the other geographically European countries that are not full on "European" countries (e.g. Denmark, Norway, Switzerland). The fact the UKIP has gained so much ground just gives me confirmation that my move to live in Germany was the right one. The parts I miss can be imported or experienced in short doses by visiting "home" for a few weeks each year. Should the UK step away from Europe, then I would have to distance myself from the UK. As I've been here 13 years now, it would be a formality to get citizenship. I see myself more a European than "just" an Englishman.

    Finally, to the people mentioning language and involvement in the country you choose to live in. I have embraced this in Germany through choice, but there are MANY who do not. I do not say that people *have* to fully integrate into a country - I am certainly still a Brit living in Germany and not a German. However, I do recommend that anyone moving to any foreign country should at least make a serious attempt at mixing with the local culture. Not everything will sit with you, but there may be a lot of things that you never knew about that you would enjoy. Language is often a barrier to entry in many of these cultural experiences, but if you make the effort it pays back many times over. If I were to move to any other country, I would do it all over again. It has brought too many positives for me when compared to the work it took to learn the language.

    I hope that the interview has at least answered a few questions for anyone who may have been considering a move to Germany. If anyone wants more info or has more questions, they can get in touch with me

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Re: General response to you all

      I worked over in Lingen for a while (satellite site for my Osnabrück based employer). Now working in the heart of the pork and egg production area of Germany (Artland).

  9. Richard Altmann

    As a german

    i see, you guys are on a serious note. Language is of course a challenge, what with all this articles and sentences being build up the wrong way. English is the first language taught in schools but generally thought of as a waste of time. English (American) movies are broadcast translated into german.

    The shopkeeper has to cope with deliberatly broken german delivered by the turkish community.

    These kids make a point of being different and their only way to do so, is some glibberish german talk.

    Well, being second or third generation "Gastarbeiter" with their parents still dreaming of Anatolia, they are really lost between the worlds. Look to East Europe. They get there movies straight forward in english without subtitles and this kids are fluent in english.

    An englishman in a german company is exotic. So you find the workmates who are too embaressed to talk to you at all or the ones who want to hone their english "skills" on you. Not easy to learn german there.

    As for working time: We don´t just hang around, killing time. What would be the point? Got a job at hand? Get it done with all the overtime that comes with it. No job at hand? Go home and balance your overtime. (My xmas season starts next week). An employer pushing you to useless overtimes goes as slave keeper and runs out of employees quite quickly. But then i´ve just been to the depandance of a big american chip producer. They have a PA system going the whole day. "And this thursday´s free car washing ticket goes to John Doe!" And they are going: "We are family" and everybody smiles this Ecxtasy smile and noone believes in this intrusion into their private lives but just feel dwarfed by the honour of being allowed to work for this big brand. Always scared to shit of being sacked, when next quarter´s results are not good enough for the shareholders and the next round of chopping heads begins. But then, if you live like that, your nothing but a slimey, not worth the shilling.

    The Boss is always the last one to leave and lock the office. Well, at 18:00 he might ask you to quickly generate a quotiation for some customer in Africa who does not care if it comes tomorrow or next week. But it gets balanced out.

    job done, he will get the beer out of the fridge and even give you a lift home. Having been an Expat for more than a decade, Germany is employee´s heaven.

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Re: As a german

      All very true, but at least as a Brit working in Germany, you have to learn the language if you want to watch local TV. The only exceptions being those that work for large multinationals, speak English all day and get their TV piped in over BSkyB satellite using an English card or via iPlayer or Netflix with a VPN.

  10. Christian Berger

    The BBC once had a nice insight into working in Germany

    Deutsch Plus

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lk9rS7n-4Q#t=823

    Just listen to the cheerful music.

    Over the series Mr. Antunescu a trained graphic artist, gets a job as a runner, mugged and finds a girlfriend.

  11. 1Rafayal

    I lived and worked in Germany for a year, but it just didnt click for me.

    The people I worked with were a good bunch, language wasnt a major problem as I did attempt to learn as much as I could and travel to and from work was easy. Also, the food over there is great.

    What got me is that the entertainment was nearly all in German. Films and TV were dubbed over with German voice actors, so it made it quite hard to follow - especially if you thought using the TV would help to learn German like I did.

    Also, its bloody expensive over there, even if you have one of those awesome German salaries.

    I dont regret going there, as I made lots of new friends. But I would say that you need to be prepared to deal with German culture etc.

    But, there is always currywurst :)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What got me is that the entertainment was nearly all in German. Films and TV were dubbed over with German voice actors, so it made it quite hard to follow - especially if you thought using the TV would help to learn German like I did.

      Did you find watching TV helped learn the language or hindered it? As for the food you can't beat a good 'wurst. They just don't seem to do them right in the UK though..

  12. Steve 114
    Facepalm

    Comparisons

    In many years of EU joint technical work, I have never had an argument with a German colleague, and never won an argument with a French colleague. One of the reasons I don't think 'ever-closer union' will ever be right for Britain.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Comparisons

      never won an argument with a French colleague.

      You were almost certainly too polite. Unless at some point you you lose your temper and yell something along the lines of "that just won't FUCKING work" the French won't accept that you're really committed to your view. I remember the first time I did that. I mangled my French, because I really was getting het up about the issue, but after a moment of stunned looks which clearly said 'oh, so you really think this is a problem?" we actually made progress. Just don't insult the people themselves, ad-hominem attacks will only get you labelled as a boorish Brit.

      Also, bear in mind the French decision-making process. Meetings never take decisions, even if you have a minuted log of decisions taken. After the meeting the senior manager will review it and make the actual decisions, which may be different. Drives Americans crazy :)

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I am now the MASTER OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

    Having 5 Grade 'U' 'O' Levels I have always been nervios about my written work. But here is Switzerland I am the best in the whole departemtn.

    No one can doubt stuff i write.

    I write technical documentation foir a bank that no one is going to read anyway. It is techniocally correct just poorly filled with grammar and stuff.

    Things I shout from my desk.

    "I AM THE MASTER OF WORDS!"

    "No! that is a real word, you just don't know it"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I am now the MASTER OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

      No one can doubt stuff i write.

      I'll give it a good shot...

    2. deadlockvictim

      Re: I am now the MASTER OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE

      Oh dear.

      You have misspelled «grammar» incorrectly.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Very interesting article

    I am German and moved to the UK 7 years ago, for similar reasons, at a similar age, and with similar backgroud. It's just an hour flight, but indeed very different in so many ways.

    It's interesting to see how an expat sees the country I left.

    He's spot on with his observations regarding certifications. In Germany, HR like to cover their backsides, so that they can say "but he seemed to be the perfect candidate on paper", if things don't work out.

    In the UK on the other hand your work experience is much much more important. You get a chance to prove the claims you made in your CV much easier here than in Germany. The job market is much more... flexible. For better or worse, as you don't have notice periods of 3 or even 6 months (depending on how long you have been in your job), and if the employer doesn't think you are a good fit, you can be shown the door almost as fast as you walked in through it. In Germany it's harder to get rid of an employee, and therfore often harder to get your chance, too.

    (By "in the UK", I mean the Greater London area -- I shouldn't draw conclusions for the rest of the country)

    The costs of living differ greatly between different regions and cities. The North-West corner where Bosseln is played, is comparable to Scotland outside of the two major cities. How else would you explain that you can play such games on open roads? :)

    Seriously, it is one of the cheaper regions in Germany. But nonetheless a nice area. I'm a Fishkopp myself ("fish head", as southern Germans like to call people from the north/seaside)

    If you go into cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne, Munich, and these days also Dresden and Leipzig, you'll find much higher costs of living, albeit not as extreme as London or saught after areas in other English cities (in particular the last few years).

    I found his claim funny, that almost any activity leads up to having drinks. That's actually very true in several German places, where communities are stronger (typically more rural areas). I'm glad that he put himself out there trying to blend in! That's super important in those communities. If you don't do that early, you're very quickly "the odd one out" and have little to no chance at all to rectify that later, unless you move elsewhere in the country and start over.

    I used to live in the deepest and darkest parts of Bavaria for a while. Not only could I barely understand them -- their accent is much worse compared to "Hochdeutsch" than Scottish accent to "Queen's English", if you like. Also, they are so ridiculously close knit communities with very weird traditions, that it's very hard even for a native German to blend in and be accepted by them. (Unlike the typical tourist hotspots there, where hospitality will be offered to those who bring enough coins.)

    Every community in every area has its own traditions and (often seasonal) activities. They are to be marked in the calendar and to be attended at all cost, whether you like it or not. You will be expected to show, if you live there. But... booze is usually cheap, and everybody will have lots of it, which helps. :)

    Anyway, good luck in Germany! I don't envy those who have to learn German. It's a ridiculously difficult language, which most native speakers haven't mastered. (At least you live in an almost accent-free area.)

  15. Stretch

    Having spent some time in Germany here are a few more issues:

    - Church tax. You want 10% of my wages and you will give it to godists? WTF?

    - Credit Cards. No where takes them, and if they do take them they are bizarre brands from eastern europe.

    - Cash Machines. There are no cash machines on the street. If you have a cash card from the bank you can get inside to use one, but a visitor of course will not.

    - Weekends. Don't even THINK about trying to go shopping at the weekend, or do anything other than stay at home or go to church. All shops shut at 12 on Saturday. WTF?

    - Pillows. Germans are totally unaware of what a pillow is. They believe its a large square sack about 10% full of sharp pins.

    Some pluses:

    - Cyclists. You can walk to work without a homicidal maniac on a Victorian deathtrap running you over as they actually obey the law.

    - Housing. Regulation means the housing is cheap, good quality and well sized. Not like cowboy market we have in the UK.

    - Public Transport. They actually have some. In the UK we have three forms of public transport: To London, From London, and Around London. All three are shit and massively overpriced.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      The shop hours have improved a lot over the last 15 years. In most cities you can now shop till 8 Monday to Saturday.

    2. GrumpenKraut
      Pint

      @Stretch

      Seems your last stay in Grumpenland was quite some time ago.

      Church tax: not member of a church, no such tax (but, yes, the state collecting it is ridiculous).

      Credit Cards: more and more accepted, still somewhat frowned upon for, say, less than 10 Euros.

      Cash Machines: you can go into any bank with your card and withdraw (watch out for extra charge).

      Shopping on weekend: Saturdays until 18h00 is pretty much the norm now; Sundays everything is closed.

      Pillows: buy one you like, take with you as needed.

      beer icon: Prost!

    3. Dan Paul

      You forgot....

      Air conditioning, mattresses and adequately sized beds. I have been to Germany for business twice, once in 1998 and again in 2006. The first time we were able to take the Autobahn from Frankfuhrt to Heidelburg and visit all the castles we could along the Rhine for 3 days (went out of the way to Neuschwanstein, don't miss it) and then we had customers with us the rest of the time. I had two years of high school German so I had a slight recognition of what people were saying and what the signs meant. We had a wonderful time and met some interesting folks. Seemed like it was a voting year and there were lots of advertisements for the various political parties and many politicians in the squares speaking to the crowds. TV was interesting as being in an an american brand hotel, I did not expect the unmitigated porn that was on various channels. The commercials were almost as risque. The accomodations were very americanized, lots of AC, great beds, real pillows. We went to France and into Strassbourg and never experienced any "border" crossing, did the tourist thing and took the glass boat tour, saw the main cathedral, had dinner later at a restaraunt that had been in business for over 400 years. I met some of the nicest people and had some of the best food I have ever had. In my experience, most people had a better command of english than I of German so I tried to use meine kleine deutsch, but most people under 50 just smiled and replied in english. Last time I was there in 2006 I was in Maulberg near Switzerland and that was fairly rural. By the time we left the factory where we were being trained (about 4:00 pm), the town was pretty much closed down. The motel we were staying at was open and we could take the train to a larger town where there was some nightlife. Motel owner was a gracious soul, he and his wife and family ran the only motor inn in town. No air conditioning (it was a heat wave of 85 to 90F), pillows as you said the size of a napkin and prickly, mattresses were about 3" thick, no springs & rather stunted in length and we were lucky because our rooms had a private toilet and a coffin like shower. I got along well, acclimating to the miles long walk every day to and from the factory. Lots of 120 proof cherry schnapps afterwards helps, I guess. Too many prissy southerners (Americans) bitching about too many things, like the owners kids playing naked as a jaybird in their sand box (funny and quaint) and running around the motel, the lack of AC, etc. Too bad because it was a great learning experience to see how others live. I don't know if they ever did another training session like that one. Never bothered me but when I said to our host that I appreciated the chance to experience some "culture" they were kind of apologetic and sarcastic at the same time. It's not all Berlin for sure.

      By the way, how do you tell if two Germans are arguing? You can't (if you are American or English)

  16. Sweeper
    Thumb Up

    Londoner near Duesseldorf

    I came to Germany about 17 years ago when I met my now wife. As an IT Analyst I travel a lot (and will be over in London tomorrow for couple of days to some Regcasts) and get to see many places with a disconnected eye. Germany, in particular Nord-Rhein Westfalia, is a good place to live and work. Houses, food and especially Beer are much, much cheaper than London. That said it is nearly impossible to get hold of good Cheddar or heavy beers. Real bacon is also hard to find. But the people are very welcoming, just like the East End of London was when I was growing up.

    1. Charlie Clark Silver badge

      Re: Londoner near Duesseldorf

      We'll have to continue not meeting up! Successfully avoided fellow expats for about the same time as you.*

      You can get quite a lot of stuff and the American and British store on Corneliusstr, but good cheese really is hard to get. Reasonable set of beers and ciders, though as I like Alt I'm happy to stick to Schlüssel.

      The mentality of the people here in the west is pretty close to British so integrating isn't too hard: they'll generally laugh at the jokes, even if they don't tell too many themselves.

      * I will admit to having a bit of a hankering for some carol singing (with some figgy pudding, of course).

      1. williamd

        Re: Londoner near Duesseldorf

        You can now get Cathedral City from Edeka (and its other supermarket subsidiaries) maybe not the best cheddar, but a hell of a lot better than the shite Kerrygold "cheddar" that normal german supermarkets sell. That stuff is rank and has nothing to do with cheddar.

  17. Daedalus

    Need the Idiot Indices

    When considering another country it's always good to know how many ID10T's you will encounter and of what type.

    Blithering Bureaucrats - all form and no substance

    Grinning Idiots - everything's OK as long as everybody is happy.

    Climbers - they've got your back, 'cos they are stepping on it to get higher

    Panickers - promoted beyond their competence, they jump all over their subordinates because that's all they know how to do.

    Sales Droids - nuff said.

  18. Nifty Silver badge

    I spent a couple of years in Berlin & Bavaria and got fluent in German.

    Even in the 80s any reasonable sized town had most shops open till 7, so if you left work promptly could do most shopping after work with ease. Unlike 80s UK where town shopping centers were closed at 5:30.

    It's true that Sunday started at 13:00 on a Saturday though. Something I'd appreciate much more in my dotage than in those days.

    In the 80s you could not access any UK media except for newspapers from the regional airport and BBC World Service. German TV and radio was dire then and has not improved much since. German speech and news radio stations today are still a century behind the BBC.

    Jobwise I found my employer clinging to unbelievably archaic and customized tech. In that respect I was better off returning to Blighty and it's US-centric approach to IT.

    Due to the wildly inflated price of UK property and cost of UK public transport, I would consider retiring in Germany due to the better living space and travel opportunities.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like