back to article 'Net Neut' activists: Are you just POSEURS, or do you want to Get Something Done?

On Monday, President Obama wrote out a cheque he knew he couldn't cash. The President is signalling to activists and his Silicon Valley backers that although, yes, he may spend much of the time playing golf, he actually truly and deeply does care. He "gets it". City Lifeline cable guys get busy outside You want cable? It's …

  1. Charles 9

    To the author:

    Perhaps you don't realize it, but the general sentiment is that Congress (especially the upcoming one run by the Republicans) will be even less-inclined to listen to the American public than the one in place now. They're pro-business and minarchist; if they had any real say (say a Republican President), they'd dissolve the FCC. So there's a kind of "now or never" fervor.

    Lastly, thanks to the way Congress is set up, there's basically no way to set up any real oversight in anything that matters. Simply put, anything you try gets smothered by counter-lobbying by the big firms who can easily spend six or even nine figures like it's nothing. And they consider it constitutionally sacrosanct and impossible to quash.

    1. jamesb2147

      I have to agree with the first half here. 3+ million comments to the FCC, early indications of which suggest that <1% of them are negative in sentiment toward net neutrality, would disagree with your claims, Andrew.

      That's also the reason that Mr. Cruz's comment was incredibly stupid, politically speaking. It revealed an astounding disregard for the demonstrated feelings of the US public.

    2. Fluffy Bunny

      "less-inclined to listen to the" - this is why they are trying to bypass Congress and get it done the dirty way. It's also the reason they mustn't be allowed to succeed.

  2. Don Dumb

    Dear the Author

    From your piece:-

    "This is how the Culture Wars have been conducted."

    And

    "What makes this week's debate so cynical is that, like most of the Culture Wars, it has been entirely avoidable."

    What the bloody hell are the 'Culture Wars'? - the only time I have heard anyone use a phrase like culture wars was some crackpot Christian minister talking on a phone-in show in the deep south who thought he was fighting some sort of battle with "the homosexuals".

    Mr Orlowski, are you really suggesting the fight for equality and human (gay) rights is "a hack"?

  3. Mark 85

    Charles,

    Well put. You just summed up what Congress will do, or not do, in a nutshell. Even if one CongressCritter actually understood all the implications, ramifications and the tech side, his/her voice would be lost in the backroom.

  4. Aedile

    I agree with Charles 9. No one wants to send this to Congress since everyone largely agrees they won't pass a better law but a worse one. The people in government don't get technology and they are largely owned/paid for by big business. If they weren't you wouldn't get stupid comments like the one issued by Ted Cruz. Keep in mind this is a member of the Committee for Commerce, Science and Transport and a Subcommittee member for Communications, Technology, and Internet.

    Also there isn't much of a choice for broadband in the US. Despite living less than 17.5 miles (28K) from St. Louis (2 million people) in a town of 100k people I had ONE choice for broadband and that was Charter. I was too far away to get better than DSL from AT&T and there were no other providers. I know a sample size of 1 or a personal experience does not reality make but here is an article making the case for me http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/09/most-of-the-us-has-no-broadband-competition-at-25mbps-fcc-chair-says/.

    For the law the best choice maybe for the gov to seize the last mile and work like the EU but that will never happen since it will be seen as too socialist. The next best would be to order ISPs to allow others to connect at a reasonable bulk rate like they did for telephone companies back in the day. This could be accomplished under Title 2 which is one of the big reasons to fight for it. Of course, this requires the FCC to have the will to do so which is doubtful since they seem to barely have the will to reclassify them. The next best would be reclassify them and order them to not be a$$hats. This seems the best bet given the political reality. The telecoms will still fight it because being not being an a$$hat is hard for them since that is their natural state. After that you end up with some odd hybrid options or trying 706 again which ultimately will allow the telecoms to be evil the second they aren't being watched like a hawk. We've all seen how well they live up to their promises.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Better than DSL"?

      What were the speeds you had available from AT&T? I can get 50/25 Mbps DSL (VDSL2) from Centurylink, and I think they're planning on upping that to 100/50 next year. Some areas have faster cable than that, but it is hard to argue that DSL is automatically not an option simply because it is DSL. If you're talking 1.5 Mb DSL, then that's another matter...

    2. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: Charles 9, Aedile and chums.

      Going by your whin- I mean, posts, it would seem am excellent time to invest in Frito-Lays shares (they make Doritos).

      1. Charles 9
        FAIL

        Re: Charles 9, Aedile and chums.

        That would be funny...if I got the joke (meaning you failed at failing).

        The point being if 10-30% of the general American population suddenly vanished, I doubt the ones in power would care for more than 24 hours. They would still have their riches and there would still be people to fight over. Barring some populist revolution (and given the average attention span, the bread, and the circuses, by the time they finally noticed...) we're probably already too late to change anything before it all crumbles. It's the latter days of Rome all over again. So pick your descent: slow in the handbasket or quick in the bullet train.

        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          Stop

          Re:.Charles aged 9? Re: Charles 9, Aedile and chums.

          "That would be funny...if I got the joke....." Maybe your tinfoil hat got in the way?

          "....The point being if 10-30% of the general American population suddenly vanished, I doubt the ones in power would care for more than 24 hours....." That's just moronic. If even ten percent of the U.S. population disappeared overnight you would have a national emergency. 30% would trigger a catastrophic decline in the U.S. economy.

  5. Dan Paul

    Congress was wrong back then and ...

    they are wrong now. All phone traffic is digital from the local Exchange CO to the backbone and to the target Exchange CO. Only the last mile or so is POTs (PlainOldTelephone) anymore.

    For those who have their home phone through cable then its VOIP service which is completely digital. Every one of the Telcos are ISPs too. They ALL offer some kind of internet access.

    There is NOTHING that will make the Telcos maintain or expand the existing network so you HAVE to regulate them. They made trillions of dollars on plain phone service and are still making billions.

    ALL the ISPs provide the same phone services and bundle them, every cable or fiber Internet Service Provider is a TELCO. They have made trillions on their services too.

    MAKE ALL THE BASTARDS PAY, MAKE THEM ALL TITLE II.

    REGULATE THEM LIKE THEY WERE A PUBLIC UTILITY BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE.

    I never want to hear about "abusing their monopoly position" about anyone else until something is done about about the Telcos and ISP's! The Telcos have abused their monopoly for over 50 years, let not wait another 50 years for the ISP/Telcos.

  6. Gene Cash Silver badge

    "Where the choice is just two providers, they should be watched like hawks for evidence of collusion, price fixing and underinvestment"

    History has shown no one gives a damn. Verizon rolled out FiOS in New England where it had competitors, and in the Southeast or anywhere it doesn't, it's "so soddy, no fiber 4 j00!"

    I have a choice between Comcast and Time Warner, and we know what the merger would do to that.

    AT&T's level of customer "service" for U-Verse means it's not a choice. No. Just no. Hell would freeze solid first. They actually make Comcast look good.

    As the sudden appearance of everyone and their dog with gigabit fiber in Austin shows, underinvestment is just the name of the game. Nobody gives a shit about building out infrastructure until someone else upsets the apple-cart, and nobody's willing to do that except Google, who can't be the whole country's babysitter.

    I'd pay good money for gigabit, but I'm not parting with any more dosh and getting only my shitty 10mbits/sec.

    1. Dan Paul

      Have an upvote, I agree

      I have Time Warner here but no other real competition, I get around 10 to 15 mbs from them most of the time which is okay if I didn't have complain and call them all the time because it goes wonky.

      I'd say they oversold capacity if that wasn't a gross understatement. Fios won't be coming here and Verizons DSL is awful especially when it rains as the trunk wires here are at least 50 years old in most places.

      If Concrap buys Crime Warner then it will cost way more than the $89/month I pay now, be crappier service, less channels, more downtime, slower internet service (how can that even be possible on cable?), ruder customer disservice people who still can't be understood (will only get worse), and an even worse phone menu.

      Where is Google when you need them? They should come in and blow them out in Niagara County.

  7. noominy.noom

    I'll play the game with you Andrew

    I know your job is to inflame and incite emotion. I admit you are good at it. I also think you are a good writer and an intelligent person. So instead of ignoring your posts I'll play the game here. Partly because I know a lot of readers don't know what net neutrality is about.

    Net neutrality is not about speed. Or competition. Speed and competition get brought in to the debate because some people think competition would cause providers to tow the line and therefore no regulation would be needed. And speed is one of the desired traits of a good connection so it gets lumped in to the competition discussion along with net neutrality.

    The state of the local loop in the U.S. is not going to be described here as it would take a set of books to lay out the history and current state of the infrastructure. I will only mention one aspect of it. That is that the telecommunications providers have turned to video to bring in more revenue. Before twenty years ago you had zero internet and zero anything else from your local telephone service provider. You bought a modem and called a bulletin board, called a university if you had an account there, or got an account at some place like Compuserve. About twenty years ago phone companies started supplying consumer Internet connections. About ten years ago the phone companies started selling video services. Now the problem occurs that net neutrality would solve. Your internet connection is provided by a company that wants to sell an internet service in competition with other internet services. True competition would possibly alleviate some of the conflict, but it could lead to having to buy service from multiple providers. Net neutrality would simply say to the connection providers you cannot pick what the consumer wants. All legal is available on all Internet connections with no artificial inhibitions.

    Your comment that "Fully 89 per cent of Americans can choose between two providers" is irrelevant to the net neutrality debate. Even the more so because as I stated above, both of the providers are suppliers of both Internet connections and services sold over the connection.

    I personally am less concerned about video. I am more worried about other content. There are businesses like restaurants that refuse service to people they have an issue with. Whether they should be able to do so is not relevant to the topic at hand. What is relevant is that an Internet connection provider could decide to do the same thing. It is not at all far fetched to think that here in the U.S. a company will decide that they would block anything that conflicted with their beliefs. From abortion to sex to religion to rock and roll to whatever. That is why net neutrality is important to me. When I buy an Internet connection I don't want someone overseeing every site I visit and blocking the ones they don't think people should see.

    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: booming.noom Re: I'll play the game with you Andrew

      "......It is not at all far fetched to think that here in the U.S. a company will decide that they would block anything that conflicted with their beliefs. From abortion to sex to religion to rock and roll to whatever....." So what you're saying is you object to something that might happen, even though you have zero actual evidence that any of the players intends implementing any such censoring of your Net?

    2. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

      Re: I'll play the game with you Andrew

      No, my job isn't to "incite emotion". I'll leave that to people who claim the internet has broken, or who compare regulation to Obamacare :-)

      That's a long post - I am not sure what you are trying to say? The burden of proof for new regulation, or regulatory reform, is always on the people who want to introduce it. In this case, they're struggling to agree on basic definitions ("net neutrality") and coming up with assertions that don't map onto reality ("any packet discrimination is bad") and metaphors that are plainly absurd ("outlaw fast lanes"). Nor is the precautionary principle (eg, "if we don't do X something really bad might happen") particularly convincing: biofuels and the invasion of Iraq were both advanced using this.

      My point is that if you want better broadband and a more competitive broadband market, you might want to think hard about how the market works. Structural reform of the wholesale market and enforcing strong business competition and consumer legislation may almost certainly be part of this. This is not the first time I have pointed out that people are lazy and prefer bumper stickers to engaging in real grassroots citizen activism, or thinking about the market.

      And yours is...?

  8. jamesb2147

    Calm, rational argument

    "And calmly and rationally batting aside objections like "Obamacare"."

    Let's do just that for a moment. Did you see The Oatmeal's comic about this? Here, have a look if you haven't already: http://theoatmeal.com/blog/net_neutrality

    Go ahead, soak it in. Now, let's also take in Senator Cruz's full quote: ""Net Neutrality" is Obamacare for the Internet; the Internet should not operate at the speed of government."

    As I stated in an earlier comment, 3+ million comments to the FCC and <1% oppose net neutrality. Mr. Cruz's comment can and should be used against him. It was stupid. With that said...

    He has kind of a point after the semicolon. I'm willing to take that into consideration. However, I don't believe that regulating the last mile into a shared access medium is inherently incompatible with his concerns.

    The Oatmeal takes pains to point this out. It doesn't make sense for a Senator to be opposed to the idea of net neutrality, only certain aspects of its implementation. I think the Senator's expressed concerns can be accommodated. What I don't think is that he and his colleagues will actually focus enough on the topic to accomplish anything worthwhile. So, for my time investment, it's much more effective to try out non-legislative solutions; it's simply more efficient. If we *must* involve Congress (which, in spite of your proclamations to the contrary, may not be the case) then this fight will be longer, slower, and vastly more expensive, and that's assuming that the legislators get everything right (which they recently proved they could not, even when having the free time to do so from being the least productive Congress in AGES, as they still haven't got patent reform right).

    1. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

      Re: Calm, rational argument

      "It doesn't make sense for a Senator to be opposed to the idea of net neutrality, only certain aspects of its implementation."

      Not if he has been informed, by "the fathers of the internet", that the internet has never been neutral.

      You're making a fairly transparent attempt to move the debate on from "do you Unicorns exist?" to "are Unicorns vegetarian?"

      Personally I think Cruz may have overbaked his pudding: either way, we're talking about a regulated market. The degrees and nature of the regulation differ. But the red herring of neutrality causes far confusion than it brings clarity; "discrimination" and "fast lanes" are slogans for the technically illiterate.

  9. dan1980

    Not 'clear cut' at all

    "In both Brand X (2005) and Verizon (2010) the US Courts were invited to allow the FCC the authority to apply Class II. And they clearly sent a message that they can't give the FCC authority to do that, because Congress was so clear cut about the distinction when it wrote the 1996 Telecommunications Act."

    Not so. Not even close.

    In Brand X, the Supreme Court deferred to the FCC following from the Chevron Doctine.

    In more detail, the Ninth Circuit originally ruled that classifying "cable companies providing cable modem service" as "telecommuniacations providers" was the best construction of the 1996 Telecommunications Act.

    On appeal, the Supreme Court ruled that the Ninth Circuit had erred. Not in their reading of the statute, however, but in substituting their reading for the reading of the FCC. Or, more specifically, the reading of the statue given in a previous ruling.

    Here is an important technicality that gets lost. The Ninth Circuit, in a previous decision, held that the best interpretation of the Telecommunication Act was that cable providers should be considered "telecommunications providers". They then relied on that precedent to overrule the interpretation of the FCC.

    Where the Ninth Cicuit erred, however, was that:

    ". . . a court’s interpretation of a statute trumps an agency’s under the doctrine of stare decisis only if the prior court holding determined a statute’s clear meaning." (Thomas)

    They (the Ninth Circuit) therefore should have applied Chevron in accepting the FCC's interpretation because:

    "Its prior decision in Portland held only that the best reading of §153(46) was that cable modem service was a “telecommunications service,” not that it was the only permissible reading of the statute."

    It is a permissible, lawful contruction of the Act to class cable providers as "telecommunications services" and the Ninth Circuit believes that not only is it a permissible reading, it is also the best reading.

    It is not, however, the only reading and, as he FCC's reading - that cable providers are not TCs - is also permissible and lawful, the Court, under the Cevron Doctrine, must defer to the Agency.

    Of particular note is the following:

    ". . . our conclusion that it is reasonable to read the Communications Act to classify cable modem service solely as an “information service” leaves untouched Portland’s holding that the Commission’s interpretation is not the best reading of the statute."

    What is notable here is that what all this hinges on whether cable providers can be considerd a "telecommunications service". Further, this definition hinges on just one word: "offering", because a "telecommuncations service" is:

    ". . . the offering of telecommunications for a fee directly to the public."

    Given the author's assertion that it's "clear cut", the opinion of Thomas is worth giving at length:

    "We have held that where a statute’s plain terms admit of two or more reasonable ordinary usages, the Commission’s choice of one of them is entitled to deference. See Verizonm, 535 U.S., at 498 (deferring to the Commission’s interpretation of the term “cost” by reference to an alternative linguistic usage defined by what “[a] merchant who is asked about ‘the cost of providing the goods’ ” might “reasonably” say); National Railroad Passenger Corporation v. Boston & Maine Corp., 503 U.S. 407, 418 (1992) (agency construction entitled to deference where there were “alternative dictionary definitions of the word” at issue). The term “offe[r]” as used in the definition of telecommunications service, 47 U.S.C. § 153(46), is ambiguous in this way."

    Justice Scalia's dissent is noteworthy*:

    "If, for example, I call up a pizzeria and ask whether they offer delivery, both common sense and common “usage,” ante, at 18, would prevent them from answering: “No, we do not offer delivery–but if you order a pizza from us, we’ll bake it for you and then bring it to your house.” The logical response to this would be something on the order of, “so, you do offer delivery.” But our pizza-man may continue to deny the obvious and explain, paraphrasing the FCC and the Court: “No, even though we bring the pizza to your house, we are not actually ‘offering’ you delivery, because the delivery that we provide to our end users is ‘part and parcel’ of our pizzeria-pizza-at-home service and is ‘integral to its other capabilities.’ ” Cf. Declaratory Ruling 4823, ¶39; ante, at 16, 26.1 Any reasonable customer would conclude at that point that his interlocutor was either crazy or following some too-clever-by-half legal advice."

    Thomas addresses the dissent but the upshot of the lot is that this only reinforces his opinion that the definition is ambiguous and permissive to multiple lawfully interpretations, leading to what I believe is the nub of the opinion:

    "Because the term “offer” can sometimes refer to a single, finished product and sometimes to the “individual components in a package being offered” (depending on whether the components “still possess sufficient identity to be described as separate objects,” post, at 3), the statute fails unambiguously to classify the telecommunications component of cable modem service as a distinct offering. This leaves federal telecommunications policy in this technical and complex area to be set by the Commission, not by warring analogies."

    The issue, then, is not whether they are one ("Information Service") or the other ("Telecommunications Service"). They are clearly an "Information Service" and there is no challenge so the question is whether they also "offer" telecommunications services, which hinges on what you determine the word "offer" to mean in this context. And this is far, far, from "clear cut".

    I apologise for the volume of this post but I feel it's important to point out where Mr Orlowski is incorrect with something more substantial that "nope".

    * - I recommend taking the time to go through it in full as it is excellent reading, like all of Scalia's opinions and especially his dissents.

    1. dan1980

      Re: Not 'clear cut' at all

      In summary of the above, see one of the closing paragraphs of the majority opinion:

      "In sum, if the Act fails unambiguously to classify non-facilities-based information-service providers that use telecommunications inputs to provide an information service as “offer[ors]” of “telecommunications,” then it also fails unambiguously to classify facilities-based information-service providers as telecommunications-service offerors; the relevant definitions do not distinguish facilities-based and non-facilities-based carriers. That silence suggests, instead, that the Commission has the discretion to fill the consequent statutory gap."

      This is pretty much the exact opposite of what the author is asserting, which is that ". . . they ['the US Courts'] clearly sent a message that they can't give the FCC authority to do that."

    2. dan1980

      Re: Not 'clear cut' at all

      "It is not, however, the only reading and, as he FCC's reading - that cable providers are not TCs - is also permissible and lawful, the Court, under the Chevron Doctrine, must defer to the agency."

      (Yes, quoting myself . . .)

      One amendment I should note is that the above is the majority opinion of the court. Justice Scalia, in his dissent, says:

      "When a court interprets a statute without Chevron deference to agency views, its interpretation (whether or not asserted to rest upon an unambiguous text) is the law."

      It is Scalia's position that if a court has construed a statute that construction becomes law.

      In other words, once the Ninth Circuit reached "right (“best”) result", that is the interpretation that should henceforth be used (unless a better construction is found). Scalia argues that what the court has done, in this case, is give an Agency the authority to OVERTURN a legal interpretation by the courts and substitute their own, so long as it is a possible alternate interpretation. There is no need for them to prove that the court's construction is unlawful or that their own is a better construction, just that it is permissible.

      This part of his dissent is largely beside the point because the main part (Part I), where he was joined by Justices Souter and Ginsburg, shows that be believes that the reading of the Ninth Circuit is correct because it is:

      ". . . perfectly clear that someone who sells cable-modem service is “offering” telecommunications."

      Which is to say that the he, along with Justices Ginsburg and Souter, believes the Act to be unambiguous but in such a way that cable providers ARE telecommunications services and finds the interpretation of the FFC to be a "peculiar construction".

      So, as a corollary to my original post, the three Justices who believe that the FCC doesn't have the right to make these rulings - who believe the statute to be 'clear cut' - find that cable providers do indeed fall under the classification, and thus regulation, of "telecommunications services".

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