back to article Schneier, Diffie, ex-MI5 bod, privacy advocates team up on Code Red

Security experts including Bruce Schneier and Whitfield Diffie are teaming up with privacy advocates to form a new privacy group that aims to champion privacy against the growing tide of intrusive government surveillance. The project, Code Red, is due to begin in January with the aim of becoming a "strategic think tank and …

  1. Sir Runcible Spoon
    Go

    Long overdue

    We have their attention, now is the time to put across our demands.

    Time to start writing to our MP's to make them get behind this initiative?

    1. Vimes

      Re: Long overdue

      Except that in the case of Bruce Schneier, he didn't complain about such surveillance when it was his employer doing it.

      I guess spying on people is OK if it's for profit and not for the government.

      And as for Simon Davies, does anybody here remember the consultancy 80/20 Thinking that he set up and the apparent attempt to legitimise Phorm through the PIA released by his consultancy?

      Personally I'd like to see what they actually get up to before deciding whether it's anything worth supporting.

      1. Sir Runcible Spoon

        Re: Long overdue

        I won't disagree with you about waiting to see what they get up to before support them, but I think your other comments are wide of the mark, especially regarding Bruce's position on the matter.

        Don't forget, it was BT Retail that was in bed with Phorm - there is no evidence to suggest that the other arms of the business were in cahoots (unless you are of the 'guilty until proven innocent' crowd).

        I also have it on good authority that Bruce wasn't overly impressed over the whole Phorm debacle. If Bruce is complicit in any snooping stuff, it will be at the GCHQ level and he doesn't have a lot of choice about that.

        Besides, he did actually leave BT and has had considerably more freedom to express his views since.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Long overdue

        You don't criticise BT if you work for BT and wish to continue working for BT. Believe me, I know. That is a company that takes any criticism to heart and even disciplines staff for discussing/speculating on the future of BT based on information BT has put into the public domain.

      3. Levente Szileszky

        Re: Long overdue

        "Except that in the case of Bruce Schneier, he didn't complain about such surveillance when it was his employer doing it.

        I guess spying on people is OK if it's for profit and not for the government."

        Clearly sounds like either someone with no clue what's taking about....

        ...or perhaps is it that the smear campaign already started from NSA/GCHQ/etc?

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    BROWN....

    ...Code BROWN, surely?

    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Meh

      Re: AC Re: BROWN....

      "...Code BROWN, surely?" Yeah, unfortunately any name with 'Code <colour>' is going to be associated with ditzy wannabes like Code Pink. And sticking 'Red' in the name is just going to be a red flag to 'Patriots' who will accuse it of being 'the usual lot of pinkos and commies'. Much better if they had called their group something like Net Privacy Defenders.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: AC BROWN....

        My problem here is that Code Red has already been used too many places already. Not that I have a clue as to any alternatives. The name needs to pop in both the resonance and top of the Great Googly Search Engine senses.

  3. Primus Secundus Tertius

    Troublemakers

    Wow! What a bunch of troublemakers.

    I hope the authorities keep an eye on them.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Time for the downvotes, I guess

    All this activism is forgetting one thing: there is a place for surveillance. The problem is that the balance is totally gone in many countries. Politicians need to re-establish credible transparency, accountability and oversight for law enforcement, but to fully take away the tools they need to do the job we pay taxes for seems strange.

    In addition, we need to stop offering discounted fines for large scale breaches. It doesn't matter to those who suffer from a security breach that there's 1000s like them, it does not lessen their problem. If that threatens to cost Big Business very Big Money, well, I guess it's time they start actually spending some good money on doing it right.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

      Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

        In a democracy or republic, that's OUR job, holding these people accountable. A rereading design Tocqueville's "Democracy in America," with particular attention to the possible downsides is called for here.

        Obviously either we are asleep at the switch or a majority of those who bother to go vote are comfortable with what is happening enough to ignore it as an issue. (I am aware that some places have mandatory voting which just highlights the utter uncaring here.) We CAN fix this but we don't care.

        Pardon the capitalization.

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

          That tired old saw. In the days when the power of an armed citizen roughly equaled that of an armed soldier, I'd agree with you. Even when it took two or three regular citizens to overcome the training of each soldier.

          Today, you can "pacify" 30,000 people with a HumVee and a microwave cannon, or simply wipe them out by the tens of thousands with helicopters, daisy cutters or machine gun grenade launchers.

          I don't care how many M16s you have on your insurgency shelf at home, if the state wants you dead you will be made dead. Especially if said state is a fully modern Western nation. Hell, we have freaking robots for that now. Flying ones!

          Voting means nothing. Nothing at all. What matters - especially in "money is speech, corporations are people" America - is who writes the cheques. Given how much wealth is controlled by so few people, "the people" don't stand a chance to impose their will - or their oversight - no matter who they vote for.

          Democracy, or even the concept of a republic, is a lie in a world where the gap of money, power and sheer force of arms between the haves and the have nots has moved from 3:1 to 300,000:1.

          1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

            Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

            You remind me of a quote:

            "Thus, for example, tanks, battleships and bombing planes are inherently tyrannical weapons, while rifles, muskets, long-bows, and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon — so long as there is no answer to it — gives claws to the weak." - "You and the Atom Bomb", Tribune, 19 October 1945

            That was written by one Eric Arthur Blair, better known as George Orwell.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Thumb Up

            Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

            Yep, we've had this conversation before and I still agree with you or me versus the State. However this then gets to the core issue, will the military in all its forms (including the National Guards and police agencies) cooperate? Our Sheriff already has an answer for that. Something involving a middle-finger to the federal government and do remember our police are semi-militarized. Still an unequal situation vis-a-vis the State but interesting none the less. (It made that day here.)

            And I'll be delivering my useless vote come Tuesday. Only missed one of those when my ballot went to the Persian Gulf as I fled to Tennessee. Pointless yes, but I can make it a bit uncomfortable for Them.

            1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

              Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

              Would my military or police suppress the citizens and back an autocratic state? No. But I'm Canadian. Would yours?

              Ferguson.

              America is rotten to the core. And I honestly believe your military, national guard and federal policing units would stand with the state, not the people. They've already been trained for decades in "us versus them". Your local Sheriff is just a Sheriff. His revolver and his shotgun mean nothing against the awesome power of an Apache helicopter.

              Sorry man, you just live in the wrong country for "the people" to have a say. Probably for generations to come.

              1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

                Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

                Would my military or police suppress the citizens and back an autocratic state? No.

                It's not much better if they don't. Just look at Pakistan, say, or Egypt. Yup, nothing like having the State turn against itself to make everything just peachy for the populace.

                Broadly speaking, I like the police force in my little city, and the county sheriff department too. But I'll be damned if I want them "defending" me from any other part of the state or federal government. That way lies madness.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

      Way back in the past (1980) I was receiving my watchstanding training and what I was told was that no matter what I overheard on our circuits, short of actual treason I was not to repeat it to anyone. And no, conspiracy, terror, nor pedophiles weren't on the exceptions to that rule but if necessary I could talk about it with the staff JAG (lawyers). I'd have a problem with that but that was the received wisdom. This fell under the quaint notion of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

      I'm with all you've said so long as there are real limits, real transparency, and fucking real consequences over all this. As for the corps? Real consequences start at your personal wealth and real prison sentences at real prisons, not country-clubs. Then, perhaps, you'll take your jobs as seriously as I did. One breach of security, especially one life lost, and my ads was grass waiting for the court martial's lawn mower. If you look at HIPPA, something I'm still subject to today, the penalties are somewhat less draconian but still thought-provoking. "The prospect of being hanged in a fortnight concentrates the mind wonderfully."

      And this is what colored my software engineering ever mindful of zero defects design and implementation.)

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: Time for the downvotes, I guess

        "as there are were real limits, real transparency, and fucking real consequences over all this. "

        T,FTFY

  5. adnim

    Whilst I commend this innitiative...

    and may look towards getting involved.

    Without general public awareness of this initiative and the technology involved being described at the level which the average lay person can understand, this will become niche, available only to those with such awareness.

    Public awareness is paramount in such an initiative and whilst I respect the skills and level of knowledge of those involved with this. I don't expect the general public to have a clue as to the credentials or expertise of these people. Such initiatives need promotion on news programs and the leading sponsored adverts for the various TV programming that the populous watches.

    I think this is a good thing but is useless unless it is a resource that is accessible and understandable by the average person. Most of all they need to be aware of its existence.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Code Red? What word comes next?

    If you see Code Red in an IT context, what word do you think of next?

    Nimda, maybe?

    Odd choice of name, or maybe everyone forgot by now.

    Other than that, excellent idea chaps (seriously).

  7. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    WTF? Cynthia McKenney?

    Are you kidding? She's a f*c*i*g opportunist politician who, fortunately, no longer resides here in Atlanta. I don't know whether they've just hooked their project to a bobble-head doll, or a boat anchor.

    1. tom dial Silver badge

      Re: WTF? Cynthia McKenney?

      "opportunist politician": a person who holds or actively seeks elective office.

      And really: the Green party? In the US? Might just as well be a Libertarian or member of the Natural Law party.

  8. henryConqueror

    Some Protips

    + There is already TOR. Use it on a regular basis to work against their Mass Profile Building

    + If you are a developer, build something based on the good tools (e.g. TOR, GNUpg) we already have. Release it pseudonymously, so that they cannot pull a TrueCrypt on you. Don't be a popularity whore, stay under the radar nicely. See also TOR.

    + If you need money for your project, they have you at the balls, because money is ALWAYS traceable.

    + Dont assume you can ever make an Android device secure. They have added so many bells and whistles that they have tons of exploitable bug scope.

    + Don't tell us you can have an "NSA free cloud service, run on Amazon" or other irrational, marketing-driven BS. As soon as you have plaintext on a server you do not control, they HAVE IT.

    1. Long John Brass

      Re: Some Protips

      I have a NSA free cloud service

      it's called ownCloud

      1. Gert Leboski

        Re: Some Protips

        Same here. On my vSphere HV, behind a hand built OpenBSD firewall / router. It's as "clean" as I can hope to make it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Some Protips

          Are there any cheap alternatives to commercial HSM's? especially the ones where the code is encrypted outside the module?

        2. elip

          Re: Some Protips

          If you're paranoid, you should strongly reconsider your choice of HV.

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