back to article Boffins who stare at goats: I do believe they’re shrinking

Climate change may be causing alpine goats to shrink in size, according to biologists at Durham University. Researchers analysed records of alpine animal sizes to discover that Chamois goats now weigh 25 per cent less than they did back in the '80s. Dr Tom Mason from the School of Biological and Biomedical Sciences at Durham …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    Alpine goats are shrinking and Greenland wolf spiders are growing!

    I wonder what the market for spider fur is going to be like in 50 years?

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    By the way....

    The Men Who Stare at Goats is a pretty funny movie!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: By the way....

      Wow. Downvoted for making a positive comment about a pretty innocuous movie?

      These climate change threads really are getting touchy.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: By the way....

      Not as funny as the "Non-Lethal" Weapons "expert" interviewed in the bonus material on the DVD. The guy is hilarious, not least because he takes himself seriously.

  3. 45RPM Silver badge

    If this article was by Lewis Page…

    …he’d have spent the whole article arguing that there are no goats.

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

      @ 45RPM

      When I first read that I saw- 'if this article was by Lewis Page I'd have spent the whole article arguing that there are no goats.' but then reality kicked in and you are a believer in the warming religion.

      1. TheVogon

        Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

        "and you are a believer in the warming religion"

        A religion implies that faith is required. Whereas global warming is fact based:

        http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2014/9

        The past 12 months—October 2013–September 2014—was the warmest 12-month period among all months since records began in 1880, at 0.69°C (1.24°F) above the 20th century average. This breaks the previous record of +0.68°C (+1.22°F) set for the periods September 1998–August 1998, August 2009–July 2010; and September 2013–August 2014."

        That finally kills off the "It hasn't warmed for the last 18 years" cherry picked time range bollocks brigade.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

          @ TheVogon

          "A religion implies that faith is required."

          And that is the basis of my comment. There are 2 groups basing their beliefs on faith- nothing ever changes and the end is here. Both amusing, only 1 is dangerous in the same way as the old religious persecution. The absolute deniers can be brushed off with little thought but the 'warmists' as is an appropriate title are nutters spouting nonsense and influencing politics and peoples lives. With the drawing of a hockey stick and cherry picking science they are presenting a regularly failing argument which results in regularly moved goalposts but the same predetermined conclusion. The science of course is somewhere in the middle but drowned out by the insane prophesies which often the scientists must waste time disproving while looking for the actual facts.

          Saying global warming is real is a factual statement as saying climate change is real. It is when people start adding fine print to imply other things and claim unproven certainties that abuses science and makes the warmists a cult.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

            "but the 'warmists' as is an appropriate title are nutters spouting nonsense and influencing politics and peoples lives."

            Overwhelming observable evidence says that there is something to this global warming thing.

            We don't know for sure what will happen if we continue emitting CO2, but at best it's looking like the residents of Norfolk are going to need their webbed feet to get about in a few hundred years. At worst it gets catastrophic across the planet within a few decades. Do you really think we should take that chance with our only currently inhabitable planet?

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

              @AC

              "Do you really think we should take that chance with our only currently inhabitable planet?"

              The same argument is used for saving your soul. You should go to church (of particular religion) and contribute etc or your soul is damned. Do you want to take that chance? Same for sacrifices to gods for rain/sun/crops/keep demons away. How far do we take this religious argument?

              "Overwhelming observable evidence says that there is something to this global warming thing."

              Yes. It says we dont know enough about the problem, it is worth investigating and there are whole ranges of possibilities which change with variations of knowledge about the systems we know little about (due to the complexities). We also have reliable (big difference) knowledge of actual pollutions and their effects which we should be resolving.

              Or we can replay the film waterworld and panic when someone draws a hockeystick (with the great calculation of an artist but not a scientist)

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

                "The same argument is used for saving your soul. You should go to church (of particular religion) and contribute etc or your soul is damned. "

                No this is no the same at all. There is overwhelming scientific evidence that global warming is happening and that the end results are likely mostly undesirable. This is not the case for religion which is based on faith not science.

                " It says we dont know enough about the problem"

                But we know it's definitely happening and we know that a number of undesirable effects are inevitable (for instance see level rise, more extreme weather, acidification of the oceans, etc. etc.).

                1. codejunky Silver badge

                  Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

                  @AC

                  "No this is no the same at all. There is overwhelming scientific evidence that global warming is happening and that the end results are likely mostly undesirable. This is not the case for religion which is based on faith not science."

                  I know others who will tell you 'facts' too. They got it written in a book! Some will even try to claim science to prove it! Just remember to have faith. Ah and the end they expect is also undesirable I hear so pray hard.

                  "But we know it's definitely happening and we know that a number of undesirable effects are inevitable (for instance see level rise, more extreme weather, acidification of the oceans, etc. etc.)."

                  They know its definitely happening too HAIL THE RAPTURE! Care to come back to science yet? Figure out what is happening and gain more knowledge of the effects so we can decide if adaptation or extreme decisions are best. Take the time to actually understand what changes are coming instead of assuming the worst and then constantly revising down the predictions while the wild claims are debunked over and over.

                  I dont say it aint happening and I dont say we all gonna fry. Instead I await every discovery and useful understanding of the climate. I look forward to us understanding what interactions actually take place in our climate and figuring out what effect things actually have. And I laugh at the cults who both have the answer but require your faith in them. No matter how many times they crash and burn.

    2. DrXym

      Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

      I think Lewis would find the one goat which happened to be bigger than all the others and use it to proclaim that goats are actually getting larger.

      1. 45RPM Silver badge

        Re: If this article was by Lewis Page…

        @DrXym

        Shit! You're right. My bad.

  4. Ilmarinen
    Joke

    Ha Ha !

    More "Global Warming" trolling...

    (is this like the one about having to cary fish up mountains by llama because of Climate Change (tm) ? )

  5. JDX Gold badge

    So as long as climate change isn't reversed the goats will be fine, as the harsh winters aren't happening. In fact, we'd be endangering the goats if we DID reverse CC?

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Just because...

      ...the trend is towards warming, there's no reason that can't mean harsher winters and hotter summers.

      If all the goats die off, how will I clean the windscreen on my Hummer?

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Just because...

        @ Alan Brown

        "If all the goats die off, how will I clean the windscreen on my Hummer?"

        You could erect some more monuments to the sky and sacrifice some more people (increase their energy bills above affordability) to see if it pleases your god of weather. Or maybe you could try to appease the god of goats instead?

      2. VinceH
        Coat

        Re: Just because...

        "If all the goats die off, how will I clean the windscreen on my Hummer?"

        I usually wait until they're dead anyway. Have you ever tried cleaning a windscreen with a live goat?

  6. codejunky Silver badge
    Devil

    Are you sure-

    Its not because you put them in the wash?

    1. Martin Budden Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Re: Are you sure-

      Clearly you've never used a chamois leather: they get bigger when wet and shrink when dry.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    survive harsh winters & global warming?

    Why do they worry about the goats ability to survive harsh winters

    when they get only too small when it is too warm?

    1. Tom 38

      Re: survive harsh winters & global warming?

      Chamois live in the high alps in summer, normally above 1500m, and descend to lower wooded slopes (800m-100m) during the winter. If the winter is too fierce, then it is too cold even in the woods, and they either starve or are forced even lower in to the valleys.

      I don't know about this climate angle; I would have thought that the systematic encroachment of man in to the Alps year round in the past 30 years is probably more to blame. Chamois are extremely easily disturbed by people, they don't like it when you get within a couple of kms.

    2. Mayhem

      Re: survive harsh winters & global warming?

      Of course they get smaller when it is warm - they dry out and shrink!

  8. Fading

    Seriously?

    Where's the causation? Have they really eliminated any other factors or is it purely the "must be climate change" meme? Have they assessed the feed, local flora, grazing range, local populations (greater population would lead to more competition for resources reducing overall size over generations)?

    Nope climate change- even though no one has been measuring climate for years (near surface temps are not climate).

    1. Alister
      Boffin

      Re: Seriously?

      Where's the causation? Have they really eliminated any other factors or is it purely the "must be climate change" meme?

      It's quite obvious that they've put the cart before the horse (goat) here, and that in fact the local climate is changing in response to the size of the goats. It's a well known fact that goat size is critical to the formation of Capricornicus molecules, which in turn directly affect cloud formation, and therefore the average temperatures of the region.

      (@fading, just in case you're wondering, I agree with you)

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Are they sure the goats they are staring at

    are not just further away?

    I should have been a scientist.

    1. Beornfrith

      Re: Are they sure the goats they are staring at

      Now Dougal, these goats are small, while those ones are far away...

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I hope that we don't get to a Tipping Point

    even a small goat could do nasty damage if it fell on a child's head.

  11. iranu

    Rubbish

    They claim that the region became 3-4°C warmer during the 30 years of the study If you can't smell a rat then there is no hope for you.

  12. Identity
    Alert

    It has been speculated

    that as the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere increases, vegetation will grow larger and faster, but have less nutritive value — essentially hollowed out. If the 'men who stare at goats' are correct, then coupled with less nutritive food, we may well be looking at yet another extinction.

    You may want to console yourself that the climate isn't changing, and anyway puny man could never do it,* but Pew Oceans said over ten years ago that 92% of large ocean fish were already extinct. Audubon claims 1,300 bird species are facing extinction. According to the World Wildlife Fund's newly released Living Planet Report, based on the Living Planet Index, which is a database maintained by the Zoological Society of London, 52% of all wildlife has been lost since 1970, with 76% loss in rivers and other freshwater systems.

    RECOMMENDED READING: The Sixth Extinction

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Sixth-Extinction-Unnatural-History/dp/0805092994

    *In case you've forgotten, or are otherwise unaware, the three stages of denial are:

    1) It's not happening

    2) OK, it's happening but it's not as bad as you say

    3) OK, it's happening and it's as bad as you say, but it's somebody else's fault

    1. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: It has been speculated

      @ Identity

      "*In case you've forgotten, or are otherwise unaware, the three stages of denial are:

      1) It's not happening

      2) OK, it's happening but it's not as bad as you say

      3) OK, it's happening and it's as bad as you say, but it's somebody else's fault"

      Hopefully after that the warmist cult will realise their falsified data is wrong and stop using those 3 excuses. Hopefully the absolute denier cult will get beyond it too but they are less of a threat to people so far.

      1. The last doughnut
        Mushroom

        Re: It has been speculated

        @codejunky

        He's suggested there may be a middle ground between warmists and deniers! Burn him!!

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: It has been speculated

          @ The last doughnut

          Middle ground? Apart from the helpful denial explanation which is noted in the opposition of ONLY the absolute deniers I balance that such an explanation applies to both cults. At no point does that imply burn him. Sorry doughnut there seems to be a hole in your argument. I dont know his position only that he presented a one sided argument based on logic opposing both arguments.

          I did find puzzling the section about extinction in a discussion of co2 and potentially relating it to climate. I am not sure if that is to the exclusion of actions/pollutions/general survival. But after your informative and well reasoned comment I am now in the mood for a BBQ.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It has been speculated

        "Hopefully after that the warmist cult will realise their falsified data is wrong and stop using those 3 excuses"

        So either overwhelming observed evidence from multiple sources over many years is somehow wrong, and there is a vast global conspiracy spanning nearly every country on the planet across many years or you are wrong....

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: It has been speculated

          @AC

          "So either overwhelming observed evidence from multiple sources over many years is somehow wrong, and there is a vast global conspiracy spanning nearly every country on the planet across many years or you are wrong...."

          Like the scientific spread of how many global religions? Based on reports making predictions which have been shot down in flames over and over. With new predictions made as a certainty until a scientist disproves it but by that point more predictions have been made. And the push to abandon working power generation for things which are clearly shown as unaffordable but also not any good for the environment themselves.

          There is real science going on behind the scenes but your claim of many years depends on the acceptance of various cherry picked data sources and time periods. Unfortunately climate science has and continues to damage the reputation of scientist.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: It has been speculated

            "Like the scientific spread of how many global religions?"

            Religions are not in general 'scientific'. Downvoted for consistent utter bollocks.

            1. codejunky Silver badge

              Re: It has been speculated

              @AC

              "Religions are not in general 'scientific'. Downvoted for consistent utter bollocks."

              Congrats you understood the point (even if you cant relate it to the topic). Do you not know about the attempt to scientifically prove intelligent design (not by proof but by lack of proof for evolution, which science then proved)? Consistent yes. Bollocks? Well thats your opinion. Just as you sound to me as an AC with little supporting fact but trying to pick holes before understanding what your reading.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: It has been speculated

                "Do you not know about the attempt to scientifically prove intelligent design (not by proof but by lack of proof for evolution, which science then proved)?"

                If they tried to prove it by lack of proof of something else then that's not 'scientifically'. More utter bollocks from you.

                The 'supporting facts' are overwhelmingly in favour of anthropomorphic global warming - such that there has been considered to be no longer any scientific doubt that it is happening for at least a decade now - and we are sure that that CO2 emissions by man is at least a major contributing cause and highly probably the primary cause.

  13. JonP
    Trollface

    Correlation

    At least this explains the rise in the number of trolls in recent years!

    1. Martin Budden Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Correlation

      Took me a moment to get that, but Well Played Sir!

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There is a solution to this dillemma!

    Feed them.

    1. FunkyEric

      Re: There is a solution to this dillemma!

      Or eat them!

      MMMMMmmmmmmm goat curry.......

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    what is not mentioned?

    Why, only the population explosion of chamois goats due to restrictions on hunting that also took place over the study period. They've outgrown the available food supply.

    1. Tom 7

      Re: what is not mentioned?

      Trophy hunting tends to make animals shrink - the big ones are taken leaving the smaller ones to breed.

      Trophy hunting of the chamois will be ongoing but due to the illegality of it the selection of larger specimens will be more pronounced.

  16. Fungus Bob
    Childcatcher

    Please! Won't someone think of the kids?

  17. Phil.T.Tipp
    FAIL

    Oh FFS

    From the abstract of results at Frontiers of Zoology (link in the article): "We find strong evidence that increasing population density and warming temperatures during spring and summer are linked to the mass declines. We find no evidence that the timing or productivity of resources have been altered during this period."

    Sooo, it's population density (due to decreased predation, human and non-human) - which is causing the effect. More chamois competing for the same amount of resources, which, if the warming baloney were physically and statistically significant, would naturally bloom and multiply, earlier in the longer warm season, which they do not. Alpine plants love both warming (less ice, more water) and elevated levels of CO2. Of which there are neither physically nor statistically significantly elevated amounts present or detectable.

    The risible anthropgenic global warming canard has been tacked on in a speculative stab to attract grant money for further research. Carry on.

  18. ravenviz Silver badge
    Trollface

    Global warming

    Global warming can't be true because people are getting bigger* and there's loads of those.

    *except not in the UK

    1. gnac
      Pirate

      Re: Global warming causes obesity

      http://sciencenordic.com/new-theory-co2-makes-you-fat

      You are correct ravenwiz - CO2 causes obesity.....

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