back to article Windows 10: Forget Cloudobile, put Security and Privacy First

Controversy has erupted around Microsoft's Windows 10 preview. More specifically, questions are being raised about the amount of tracking – and the depth of tracking – that was built into the preview. The Windows 10 technical preview goes so far as to monitor your typing, potentially crossing the line from instrumentation of …

  1. Caff

    rant-like journalism

    Good points raised but took some effort to read it all due to my tendancy to zone out during long winded rants.

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: rant-like journalism

      Have you considered Dextroamphetamine? It tends to help with gnat-like attention spans.

      1. chivo243 Silver badge

        Re: rant-like journalism

        My attention span weakens through out the day. In the morning, I have attention with the strength of 10,000 suns, cutting through boring dull procedure articles. As the day nears it's end, I find my attention has the strength of a tea light.

        This article did come out late in the day... I have to admit to skimming a few paragraphs as well!

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: rant-like journalism

          That's why I recommended Dextroamphetamine. Honestly, as someone with some hardcore adult ADD - my wife has ADHD as well, as do several of our friends and family - it's worth considering. The two biggest symptoms of adult ADD/ADHD are "decreased willpower" and "decreased ability to focus."

          Everyone has something called "decision exhaustion", where we find it harder to make decisions as the day goes on. Little decisions eat into our ability. Do we have toast, or a bagel? The blue pants, or the red?

          But ADHD individuals have a dramatically increased susceptibility to decision fatigue, and this gets coupled with "willpower fatigue" to leave us unable to force ourself to focus. And we must - it is an exercise of will for us to focus - because our brains are structurally different from normal people.

          Stimulants - Ritalin, Dexedrine, Caffeine, etc - basically chemically provide us with a boost to our willpower and decision-making capabilities. It varies based ont eh chemical and individual, but it's why it works for us. (I could go into a lot more scientific depth, bu you do have Google right there.)

          If you have trouble reading through a three-page article then the chances are really good that you have adult ADHD. And it isn't an attempt at insult to suggest that trying standard therapies could lead to increased quality of life. From one person who struggles with ADHD: don't knock it until you've tried it. If you do have the same neural structural issues that the make ADHD people what we are, then you might be shocked at just how big a difference it can honestly make.

          P.S. also Google "hyperfocus". It's a skill - and a curse - unique to people with true ADD/ADHD. It is worth some time and research into it's capabilities...and it's downsides.

          1. Primus Secundus Tertius

            Re: rant-like journalism

            Huh?

            Trevor writes a long and serious article about real concerns with modern software, then adds a comment advocating drugs medications.

            But what can I do except stick with Linux or XP?

            1. Khaptain Silver badge

              Re: rant-like journalism

              Agreed, Ritalin should certainely not be used within the same statement as caffeine.

              Ritalin, and its abuse, can lead to some extremely difficult situations, it is a prescription drug for a reason. Unfortunately some doctors seem to prescribe it far too easily.

              Most of the people that I work with also have low attention spans, and I mean within a professional environment, but I would not consider them as requiring Ritalin, Caffeine or any other drug, that's just not serious.

              The contemporary working environment has us constantly shifting between tasks, the attention span is often never more than an hour or so on the same subject. Shit there are days when I feel as though I am shifting every 5 minutes or so.

              1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                Re: rant-like journalism

                You'll note I did advise looking into Dexedrine. Ritalin is far worse than the alternatives.

                That said, Caffeine absolutely does have similar - albeit far less powerful - effects to both Ritalin an Dexedrine on individuals with ADHD. As a matter of fact, you are generally advised against combining them - especially during the initial dose-adjustment phase - for exactly that reason. It's hard to know what the right dose is for you if you are pounding back the caffeine as well.

                Also: "having a low attention span" does not necessarily mean you have ADHD, though it is often a good indicator. ADHD is a very real - and serious - condition that has demonstrable physiological effects. You can place a person under an MRI and see differences in how their brain responds under certain conditions than a normal person.

                ADHD is typically over-diagnosed in children. That said, it is often under-diagnosed in adults. Many doctors - to say nothing of lay practitioners - still labour under the belief that you can be "cured" of ADHD simply by wishing it away, or as a condition of "growing into adulthood. This is false.

                As I stated in my comment above:everyone can - and does - suffer from decision fatigue. (Though "willpower fatigue" is a lot rarer.) ADHD people can vary from individuals with decision fatigue resistance and willpower close to that of a normal person - and thus an attention span close to that of a normal person - to those who are overwhelmed by choices before they even leave the front door for work.

                If someone is honestly easily distractable then it absolutely is worth their while to investigate whether or not they have adult ADHD. From there, they can look at different treatment modalities.

                The quickest way to tell if you have ADHD is honestly to take a mild dose of Dexidrine for a week. If you have ADHD, you'll know. It will change your life.

                However, once you have been identified as having adult ADHD there is nothing that says you are restricted to pharmacological treatment modalities, and I would strongly encourage people to look at the alternatives.

                Meditative techniques worked (mostly) for me. They get me to the point that I can deal with my ADHD using just caffiene, and I don't have to rely on Dexedrine except on my worst days. There is also neurofeedback. This is basically a means of gamifying the same sorts of neural patterns you learn through meditation. Neither of these work on everyone with ADHD.

                Make no mistake: meditative or neurofeedback techniques for resolving ADHD will not cure it. They do not allow you to just "will yourself better". What they do is provide you a coping mechanism that allows you to become more functional than you would otherwise be, and they offer a tradeoff point between the capabilities provided by stimulants like Dexedrine and Ritalin and the fog of not treating ADHD at all.

                In addition to the above:

                Ritalin and Dexedrine are amphetamines. They absolutely will have massively deleterious side effects on individuals without ADHD. They should only ever be taken with the consent - and ongoing support and monitoring - of a qualified physician. They absolutely will affect individuals with ADHD completely differently than they will affect individuals without ADHD. (Just as Caffeine will, incidentally, but the effect of Caffeine is so much lower that it's hard to judge in many people.)

                It is for this reason that these drugs are prescription, and why monitoring and support by a qualified physician is so important. They will - or should, if they are any good at their job - look for the signs that verify that individual indeed has ADHD (and thus can benefit from the drug in question) and will absolutely not allow a non-ADHD individual to continue use.

                All of that said, don't dismiss ADHD as some myth. It's not...and identifying and treating it will make for a huge positive quality of life improvement in anyone unfortunate enough to have it. If I seem passionate about it, well...it's because I am.

                I've known about my ADHD my whole life, but my wife was only diagnosed (and began treatment) about a year ago. It absolutely changed her life. Getting her ADHD under control allowed her the ability to start doing tasks she otherwise found overwhelming, and this massively changed her self confidence and self image. It ultimately led to notable change in the lows and the frequency what had been episodes of clinical depression.

                So yeah...why not talk about these sorts of things? Why the social taboo around mental illness? It is the fact that we choose to laugh uncomfortably about these things and mock those who discuss them that makes them so much harder to deal with.

                If there's evidence that attention span may be a problem, I say take the time and effort out to see if it might be indicative of something more serious. If so, it could be that some fairly small changes could lead to a happier, more productive you.

                1. Khaptain Silver badge

                  Re: rant-like journalism

                  @Trevor

                  I will give you a thumb up for having stated, albeit a bit late, the fact that neither Ritalin or Dexedrine should be messed with. A long time ago I knew "speed junkies" that would inject Ritalin when no other amphetamines were available. The results were not pretty.

                  But a thumb down for the ADHD publicity.. It has already endlessly been discussed on the forums with extreme prejudice from both sides. Depending on the level of ADHD, almost everyone could be diagnosed with it.

                  I personally believe that the over-publication/mediatisation could result in a negative outcome whereby the "Upper Range " sufferers receive far less needed attention because it would then become a "common / less serious / more diluted problem" . I do agree that things should be spoken about though just with a little less mediatisation.

                  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                    Re: rant-like journalism

                    The thing is, ADHD isn't something that you "might have, but we can't prove". We absolutely can prove whether or not you have it. Putting someone on Dexedrine for a week will make a proper doctor 95% certain. If - for whatever reason - they were less than certain, 1/2 hr in an MRI would tell you beyond any reasonable doubt.

                    We've come a long way since the 1980s.

                    I submit, sir, that you may be laboring under prejudices about ADHD that are not valid in proper clinical practice. Your prejudice may be understandable - as it is a natural human impulse to link abuse of the drugs used in the treatment of a disease with the disease itself - but I honestly believe that sort of prejudice is as much a part of the problem as the past tendency towards overdiagnosis.

                    Neither mental illness nor pharmacology should not be taboo. Instead, education and open discussion should be the norm, so that we can all better understand the conditions, the treatments, the ramifications...and the abuses.

                    I'm sorry we're at odds on that belief, but I hope, in time, society catches up to the point that such debates are no longer necessary.

                    1. Vic

                      Re: rant-like journalism

                      ADHD isn't something that you "might have, but we can't prove". We absolutely can prove whether or not you have it.

                      Yeah, maybe.

                      My missus was a teacher in an inner-city school until she retired. A significant proportion of her pupils were diagnoses ADHD.

                      From this, we can determine at least one of two things :-

                      - ADHD is a normal part of the human condition

                      - ADHD is dramatically over-diagnosed.

                      We should probably ignore the first of these, as it boils down to "ignore it - it doesn't matter". But the latter means either that ADHD isn't easy to diagnose, or that doctors are negligently dismissive about the condition.

                      I'm hoping that it's not that easy to diagnose...

                      Vic.

                2. dogged

                  Re: rant-like journalism

                  I have a short attention span (with periods of hyperfocus during which I will forget everything else (code marathons happen) but sadly amphetamine just makes me twitchy, inclined to talk bollocks at high speed and susceptible to dance music or mundane household chores. Not compatible with work, in other words.

                  Some people just have busy brains.

                3. intrigid

                  Re: rant-like journalism

                  People with ADD have a much greater ability to identify and avoid pitfalls and come up with creative solutions to problems. You speak of ADD as if it were a genetic defect that has no evolutionary advantage. If that were true, it would have been cleansed from the gene pool long ago.

                  The world has enough worker bee drones.

                  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                    Re: rant-like journalism

                    "People with ADD have a much greater ability to identify and avoid pitfalls and come up with creative solutions to problems."

                    Some of us do. Not all.

                    "You speak of ADD as if it were a genetic defect that has no evolutionary advantage. If that were true, it would have been cleansed from the gene pool long ago."

                    You do not understand how evolution works.

                    1. illiad

                      Re: rant-like journalism

                      um, evolution is mostly dead...

                      If you don't know how evolution works, it is 'survival of the fittest, able to pass their genes to their children..'

                      In this modern society, even the old and sick, the lazy, the diseased and incapable, are given lifesaving treatments...

                      In the wild, the above will all die, and those that survive due to being resistant , fast to avoid predators, stronger to beat others, then pass this on to their children.. therefore evolution makes stronger, more able, healthier animals.. this will take many lifetime to see any effect..

                      A recent example is a particular moth, normally with a black/ white mottled wings, made it home on a factory roof- after a few generations, its wings changed to mostly black, to fit in with the black roof - so its main predator, birds, could not see them easily... :)

                      1. croc

                        Re: rant-like journalism

                        Ah... The peppered moth (Birmingham moth) rears its ugly head again. It is a clear example of natural selection, not evolution.

                        Some would say that ADD and ADHD are also examples of natural selection, but I fail to see what the selection process is that chooses what seems to be a deliterious mental state as 'better'... Or are we just better at observing and naming (and possibly over-treating?) a trait that has been around forever? When I was a young'n, there was no such thing as ADD or ADHD. So, (obviously) there was no treatment for these non-existing conditions. Now, it seems that in certain countries these conditions are rampant. In others, not so much. (Iceland, Sweden, Italy and Australia seem to have much lower rates of ADHD compared to the USA.) What does seem to be a factor is that the US has studied (and treated) these conditions for about forty years. They have commonly been referred to as American conditions. It will be interesting to observe the outcome of this particular social experiment, however I am relatively sure I will not be around to see the conclusions reached.

                        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                          Re: rant-like journalism

                          "Some would say that ADD and ADHD are also examples of natural selection, but I fail to see what the selection process is that chooses what seems to be a deliterious mental state as 'better'... "

                          ADHD is not new. Molecular DNA estimates on the few genes we know are involved (and we probably haven't found more than 25% of those involved yet) suggest it's been there for a very long time.

                          There's a theory amongst a certain class of ADHD researcher that basically states that ADHD is more like the "natural" state of man when we first evolved, and far closer to how non-human animals think. The rationale being that individuals with ADHD, having a much lower decision threshold, are run on instinct a majority of the time.

                          The ability to move beyond this - to exert willpower and make decisions more consistently throughout the course of the day - is part of what makes humans so novel. In other words: the ability to force ourselves to reason, to concentrate and to suppress our instincts and make decisions based on logic rather than desire is what separates us most animals. Or, at least, the ability to do so consistently throughout the day without requiring to sleep in order to regain the ability.

                          "Or are we just better at observing and naming (and possibly over-treating?) a trait that has been around forever?"

                          Both of these are true. We're way better at diagnosing now, but many - especially those who haven't updated their knowledge since the 1980s - overtreat. See above, where we have a commenter who cannot separate the drugs used from the condition...and believes (at least partially) the condition is something that doesn't really exist, or can be "willed away".

                          It is a real condition with a real physiological basis, and individuals with ADHD demonstrate demonstrably different mental responses to various stimuli and thought processes. We can see this on an MRI. We've even begun to unravel the genetic basis for it.

                          "When I was a young'n, there was no such thing as ADD or ADHD. So, (obviously) there was no treatment for these non-existing conditions."

                          Ignorance doesn't shape reality; reality exists regardless of your perception of it. The condition existed, you simply didn't know about it. That lack of knowledge didn't make it any less real...just untreated. Ultimately, that meant that those individuals experienced a lower quality of life than they would have had they been able to obtain treatment. Sad, but now we can start to change that for future generations.

                        2. keithpeter Silver badge
                          Windows

                          Re: rant-like journalism

                          Ah... The peppered moth (Birmingham moth) rears its ugly head again. It is a clear example of natural selection, not evolution.

                          I live a couple of miles from the Birmingham sampling ground. Have a look at Of Moths and Men by Judith Hooper. Might have been a clear example of a bird-feeder (and I am a UK based scientist without any interest in creationist twaddle).

                        3. shovelDriver

                          Re: rant-like journalism

                          What is evolution but natural selection? What is natural selection but . . .

                          The issue is whether "evolution" can happen in such a short timeframe as does "natural selection".

                          Well, facts show that it can and does. The only problem is the inability of many to accept that their pet theories are wrong. This moth is not the only known case of quick species adaption. Far from it. But you do the research; you're the "dinosaur" who needs to adapt . . .

                          1. illiad

                            Re: rant-like journalism

                            semantics, semantics... {rolleyes}

                            what is your definition of 'evolution' ?? Just put two good things together and expect a good result??

                            Two intelligent people have kids, and you may find that NOT all of them are intelligent...

                            two very average people have kids, some of them may be more intelligent, some not..

                            how does natural selection work??? the moth 'just decides' it will change its spots???

                            sorry, but things have to DIE to evolve... the offspring of the original moth had varying spot patterns...

                            ... you do know that the moth only lives for three weeks?? it may seem a short life to you, but...

                            Nature *selected* that the moths that were more visible to its prey were much easier to be killed...

                            Those that were not killed, of course had kids... and those kids that were not killed, went on to make more 'evolved to the environment' kids...

                            and of course we do not let 'weak' humans die... :/

                      2. Nigel 11

                        Re: rant-like journalism

                        um, evolution is mostly dead..

                        Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. The evolutionary landscape has changed, from the natural world to the man-made one.

                        Why do you think that ADHD has come to the fore as a modern ailment? Along with its more crippling relatives, Asbergers' and Autism. If you think it was just made up by medics with low moral standards to sell drugs, you are wrong.

                        Hyperfocus and the ability to enter "flow" can be advantageous or disadvantageous, depending on what you do. As technology has advanced, it has required more people with these mental attributes. It has rewarded them financially, but even more so it has rewarded them with challenging jobs. "The reward for a job well done, is a job well done". To a born programmer, architect, musician, ... that makes perfect sense.

                        Society has also been filtering these people and placing them in the same small subset of workplaces. Also they self-select as partners. Programmers have a reputation amongst the "neurotypical" for being difficult people with poor social skills. There's some truth in that. We tend to get on best with other people who think like us.

                        So men and women with these skills meet, and marry, and have children, and the children inherit a doubled up dose of whatever the genetic components of their parents abilities might be. And that's where survival of the fittest kicks in. What makes a good programmer, when doubled-up may give rise to either a one-in-a-million good programmer, or an autistic kid. One of whom goes on to found a multi-billion corporation, the other of whom is saddled with a crippling abnormality of mind.

                        If you want a clearer example, consider why it is that when Thalidomide victims grew up and married other Thalidomide victims, spomething truly shocking happened. Far too often to be chance, their children had similar abnormalities to their parents. Lamarkianism? Epigenetics? No, something more subtle.

                        Very many mothers took Thalidomide and did not give birth to deformed babies. The victims were by definition selected by the drug, for genetic traits that rendered them vulnerable to the drug. And then when two of these selected people had children, tragedy. The children inherited the vulnerability from both their parents, and in some cases the drug was no longer necessary to trigger the devastating consequences of their genetic makeup.

                        Evolution is still at work, selecting our children against an environment that is no longer natural, in ways that can be positive or negative.

                        A hypothesis I love because it annoys racists so much is the following. Humanity really is getting somewhat smarter than it was in the past, because of out-breeding.

                        It's unlikely ever to be proved conclusively. But consider this. The way a plant-breeder makes (say) a large-fruited tomato, is to selectively inbreed tomato plants, picking out the ones with large fruit compared to others from the same generation, and selectively inbreeding them , for several generations. The trouble is that the inbreeding is unhealthy and although the fruits get larger compared to the plant, the plant gets weak and disease-prone. The trick is to create a number of separately inbred plant strains, and then finally crossbreed (outbreed) them. The weaknesses (mostly) cancel out. The common genes do their stuff. You get vigorous healthy plants with very large fruits.

                        How does this apply to people? Well, over most of history most people lived in small rural communities and rarely travelled further than they could walk in a couple of hours. Some inbreeding was inevitable. We also consciously select our own mates. For what? Obviously: in men: strength, in women: beauty. I'd argue, in both: intelligence (as in smart, well able to provide for each other and their children).

                        And then along comes the industrial revolution, and you get nationwide outbreeding.

                        And then along comes mass air travel, and you get international out-breeding, despite the racists worst efforts.

                        (And if reading that has made any racists die of apoplexy, good.)

                    2. keithpeter Silver badge

                      Re: rant-like journalism

                      "You do not understand how evolution works."

                      Would that be hardy-weinberg equilibrium or something deeper I should know about? Or simply that cognitive diversity may not have been linked to basic survival > 50kyr ago?

                      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                        Re: rant-like journalism

                        Traits don't have to be beneficial to stick around. Even detrimental traits will stick around, so long as they are not so detrimental they are selected against with extreme prejudice.

                        In addition, selective pressures were completely different at one point. ADHD is a detriment to humans in almost all ways except one: hyperfocus. There is a case to be made that hyperfocus could have allowed the first development of tools, even though it would be a massive detriment to a hunter.

                        An ADHD individual could gleefully spend almost all day, every day hyperfocused on a task with a clear reward circuit. Knapping arrowheads, for example. When you think about it, this is an activity with a clearly defined - and relatively short to achieve - goal. The more effort you put in, the more reward (completion) you get out. It's very similar to "grinding" in MMOs, which is something that we have a lot of evidence triggers hyperfocus in ADHD people.

                        It would also lead to these ADHD people becoming experts in their chosen feild of work, achieving a mastery few others could, and advancing the techniques slowly with each generation.

                        But put those same people on a hunting party and they'll be a liability. The requirement to control yourself in concealment for long periods of time before striking - or while dodging an angry predator - would be too much for most ADHD individuals.

                        So the evolution of ADHD, it's utility to the individual (and to society) is complicated. And it makes your statement ("you speak of ADD as if it were a genetic defect that has no evolutionary advantage. If that were true, it would have been cleansed from the gene pool long ago") seem like an attempt to paint a very black-and-white view of this complicated subject.

                        In today's society there is little advantage to ADHD. In all honesty, there probably hasn't been since the introduction of agriculture. It was then that social evolution mattered more than anything, and we began having to cope with multiple things occurring at the same time, more and more often.

                        Now, right up until about the 1950s it was reasonable for the minority of us that still had ADHD to find jobs that allowed for a short reward circuit one-thing-at-a-time approach to a profession. This is where ADHD people have always thrived: where they can engage in hyperfocus.

                        But as we began to build more and more devices of convenience even "single tasks" became a chain of smaller tasks, each requiring a mental shift into a slightly different mindset to accomplish, and with an ever more deferred reward.

                        Today's world is one of ever decreasing obvious rewards. We are part of a larger machine and knowing whether or not we've done something right is hard. We don't get that feedback immediately. And we need to know so many things about so many things that it is becoming difficult even for normal people to concentrate.

                        But ADHD people aren't normal. We - like many others on the Autism spectrum - are more extreme in their ability to cope with stimulus. We either hold 1000 threads in our mind and sift through the madness for a single sound, or thought, or smell...or we focus in on the narrowest of concepts and collapse our very consciousness down like a laser to see that something gets done, and done right.

                        ADHD people can't hold the modern world in our mind. There are too many threads, even for us. Too many sights, and sounds and smells...and we physically can't filter it. It overwhelms us; that part of our abilities is useless today.

                        And hyperfocus? The skill that traditionally would have been valuable? it's hard to find something - anything, really today - that allows us to use it consistently. Normal people have the advantage.

                        So..is ADHD "genetic defect that has no evolutionary advantage"? The answer is...yes and no. In all truth, what we consider to be "normal" cognition today is likely the mutation. ADHD is probably much closer to how non-human animals think. But ADHD has become a disadvantage as our society has evolved. It had a place. It may again, one day. For right now, today...it is likely to be selected against for generations to come.

                        That's evolution for you. Complicated. Messy. Anything but black and white. Past utility - or possible utility - is not evidence of continued or future utility. That's the key thing to bear in mind.

                  2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                    Re: rant-like journalism

                    "The world has enough worker bee drones."

                    Worker bees & drones are two different things.

            2. Fungus Bob
              Trollface

              Re: rant-like journalism

              "But what can I do except stick with Linux or XP?"

              I hear some flavors of BSD are supposed to be secure....

              1. keithpeter Silver badge
                Windows

                Re: rant-like journalism

                "I hear some flavors of BSD are supposed to be secure...."

                And OpenBSD runs surprisingly well on laptops that are not of the absolute bleeding edge shall we say. Three hours total to check out the source (1.2Gb of it) from the local public CVS (uk adsl over copper) and then compile the kernel, core OS and ports on a 7 year old Thinkpad (dual core). Have pre-ordered Version 5.6 as a donation even if I stick with Linux. Worth forty quid for the man pages alone.

                But security can also be had by restricting the connections. See quote below from OA

                "Basic things like "what programs are installed" and "what is the hardware configuration of your PC" are generally collected as part of operating system updates and/or automated troubleshooting systems because they provide clear technical benefits in solving technical issues. It would be pretty insane to say "don't collect this info, because NSA"

                Could this information not be collected and kept in local storage (a la lennart and his binary logs) then be made available for upload when needed? Can you not ascertain the nature of the packets leaking out of the machine ( a firewall rule based in the upload url springs to mind).

      2. Onslow
        Pint

        Re: Have you considered Dextroamphetamine?

        Jaws clenched tight, we talked all night.

        Oh, but what the hell did we say?

        The good times are killing me.

        Fed up with all that LSD.

        Need more sleep than coke or methamphetamines.

        Late nights with warm, warm whiskey.

        I guess the good times, they were all just killing me.

        - Modest Mouse

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Up

      Re: rant-like journalism

      Nothing wrong with rants in a tech tabloid. Nice rant, Trevor! :D

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "the Ribbon Bar was nothing more than a cheap UI gimmick to boost sales during a bleak-looking sales cycle via the introduction of novelty."

    Nonsense.

    The Office toolbar / menu UI was broken, and the ribbon is more discoverable than what came before. Yes, it's different, but at least it doesn't purposefully hide things like the "you've not used this button, I'm going to hide it" features added in previous versions to try and trim the UI down to something navigable. It takes up less screen space, highlights commonly used and important functions and is more organised. It even supports the old menu shortcut keys.

    Nobody is forced to use Microsoft software.The amount of abuse thrown at them because of things like deciding to make a flat icon rather than a detailed 3D one on this site is almost as hilarious as it is unbelievable.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Thumb Down

      Many of us are forced to use MS Software

      if we want gainful employment that is...

      The Ribbon is [redacted]. WTF does Windows explorer need a Ribbon Interface? At least you can get by with minimizing it but personally MS U/I design has gone totally to pot since the introduction of the Office Ribbon. The usability has really gone downhill and frankly the abuse they get is totally deserved IMHO.

      And at least I'm not hiding behind the A/C.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

        > Many of us are forced to use MS Software if we want gainful employment that is...

        There are many many jobs out there that don't involve using Microsoft software, or even computers.

        > WTF does Windows explorer need a Ribbon Interface?

        Well, that's another thing entirely, but the author didn't seem to be referring to that inclusion of the ribbon, just it's invention for Office - where a UI overhaul was needed.

        > And at least I'm not hiding behind the A/C.

        You have to if you post anything in support of MS, or dare to admit you like the ribbon or own a Windows Phone through choice on here, because otherwise certain people like to follow you around. Posting as AC just means everyone thinks I'm one of the "many" MS shills on this thread, not every single thread I post on.

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

          "There are many many jobs out there that don't involve using Microsoft software, or even computers."

          In essence, you are saying that individuals who find a given user interface onerous, unintuitive and detrimental to productivity should change careers instead of telling the developer "give us the choice of your old UI or the new one".

          That level of arrogance is, in my mind, equal to:

          :"Your honour, if you'd seen what she was wearing, you's know that she was asking for it".

          ...and I have for you the same level of contempt as I would the asshole who would use such an argument. You're a bad person.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

            Are you really comparing a disagreement about UI's to justifying rape?

            1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

              Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

              Telling someone that should not have the right to ask a developer to include a choice of UIs, but should instead quit their job and change careers in order to change UIs is absolutely, 100% as arrogant and horrible as justifying rape by saying that the clothing someone worse justified the action.

              Both cases are attempting to say that the desire of an individual to exercise a fairly minor amount of choice - asking a developer to offer a choice of UIs or choosing to wear $clothing_style - somehow justifies forcing massive and traumatic change on a person.

              "Go find a job that doesn't use computers" is the equivalent of telling someone "give up your current upper middle class job and go get a job that is minimum wage" because....they want to ask the developer of an application to provide a choice of UIs?!?

              Yeah, you know what? That's pretty goddamned fucked up. That is fucked right the hell up. That is easily as fucked up as saying anything justifies rape.

              And the inevitable argument "well you wouldn't have to change careers if you'd just learn to like the new UI " is exactly as fucked up as saying to someone "well, you wouldn't have been raped if you'd just worn different clothes."

              The loss of a job - let alone the requirement to change careers to something so dramatic as "does not use computers" if fucking traumatic. It absolutely can impart the very same feelings of loss of control, worthlessness and so forth as rape.

              Now, admittedly, rape tends to have a higher instance of PTSD after the event, but the effects for people who have be forced from a job - especially in situations where they cannot hope to return to a job as lucrative as the one they were forced from - absolutely have been known to have massively long term effects on individuals, including PTSD. In many places - Japan, for example - job related stresses, mostly related to difficulties in retention, competitiveness and downwards wage pressures - have led to an epidemic of suicides.

              So yeah, casually suggesting that people just go our an change careersbecause they shouldn't have the right to ask a developer to offer a choice of user interface options is just as fucked up as making fun of rape. That individual is completely trivializing the very real world - and very traumatic to a great many people - impacts of career loss.

              Comparing that to rape is not trivializing rape at all, but hopefully will serve to help you understand the very real importance and seriousness of the implications in what that individual has suggested.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                > Both cases are attempting to say that the desire of an individual to exercise a fairly minor amount of choice - asking a developer to offer a choice of UIs or choosing to wear $clothing_style - somehow justifies forcing massive and traumatic change on a person.

                Anybody who has "massive and traumatic change" forced on them by the presence of the ribbon is not somebody I'd want to share an office with. How would they react when we run out of digestives in the staff room?

                PS - loving the strawman you've erected - changing career isn't the alternative to offering a choice of UI. They're not even vaguely related. Changing career is an option for those who are unable / unwilling to continue to use certain software. There are many other less extreme options available too, such as moving to another department, recommending against using the new version which contains the hated feature, or even developing a solution to patch the offensive software so that it becomes usable again.

                1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                  Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                  "Anybody who has "massive and traumatic change" forced on them by the presence of the ribbon is not somebody I'd want to share an office with. How would they react when we run out of digestives in the staff room?"

                  Where did I say that the presence of the ribbon was "massive and traumatic change"? I very specifically</I. called out an anonymous coward's comment that said people who didn't want to deal with the ribbon should change jobs - or careers - even to the point of ones without computers involved.

                  "PS - loving the strawman you've erected - changing career isn't the alternative to offering a choice of UI. "

                  That is <i>exactly</i> the choice that that suggested be made by the anonymous coward to whom I was responding, you pompous, arrogant gasbag.

                  "Changing career is an option for those who are unable / unwilling to continue to use certain software."

                  So is "asking the developer to offer a choice of UIs." In fact, "asking the developer to offer a choice of UIs" is <i>far more rational than "changing careers". It's even an option that doesn't negatively affect others. Holy pants, batman, what a fucking concept.

                  "There are many other less extreme options available too, such as moving to another department, recommending against using the new version which contains the hated feature, or even developing a solution to patch the offensive software so that it becomes usable again."

                  All of which are still dramatically more extreme than "asking the developer to offer a choice of UIs". The developer could even charge for the functionality.

                  Yet in your world, asking the developer for choice is anathema. Those who do so are deserving of denigration and disrespect, but telling them to go work in a job without computers is a perfectly rational thing to do?

                  What the metric fnord is wrong with you?

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                    > Yet in your world, asking the developer for choice is anathema. Those who do so are deserving of denigration and disrespect, but telling them to go work in a job without computers is a perfectly rational thing to do?

                    The only person who has suggested this is yourself. You brought "asking for choice" into the discussion . And even then you're wrong, people are quite able to ask Microsoft to give them the choice, and Microsoft are quite able to go "no, that will cost us too much to develop and make the software more complicated". Besides, even if there was an implemented choice on whether to use the ribbon or not, the vast majority of users wouldn't get to make it - it'd be the IT hell desk deciding on their behalf, just like they do with a huge number of settings on corporate desktops.

                    It's not about choice - there's very good reasons for offering choice, and there's very good reasons for denying them - it's about people getting upset that things have changed. If you don't like how things change in a job - be that equipment provided, management style or even staff room perks, sometimes it becomes necessary to move on, be that to a new company or career. It happens to people daily, with a lot less negative effects than being raped for "wearing the wrong clothes".

                    > What the metric fnord is wrong with you?

                    Right back at you.

                    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                      Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                      "people are quite able to ask Microsoft to give them the choice, and Microsoft are quite able to go "no, that will cost us too much to develop and make the software more complicated"."

                      And that's between the end user (or the business owner) and Microsoft. There's no call to tell someone "if you don't like what's there, go get a job that doesn't use computers." That's not okay at all.

                      "Besides, even if there was an implemented choice on whether to use the ribbon or not, the vast majority of users wouldn't get to make it - it'd be the IT hell desk deciding on their behalf, just like they do with a huge number of settings on corporate desktops."

                      And that's where it becomes between the business and the employee. I agree that some - but by no means all - businesses would remove choice from the end user. In most instances, I find that defaults are applied as part of policy, but with a level of customizability being allowed. (The level varying between organizations).

                      "It's not about choice - there's very good reasons for offering choice, and there's very good reasons for denying them - it's about people getting upset that things have changed."

                      Wrong. It's about choice. The choice I have as a business owner, for example. There are plenty of industry-specific applications for which no alternative exists that must run on Windows. Now the Ribbon Bar is part of the most fundamental parts of windows - such as Windows Explorer - and can't be avoided. Why shouldn't I be able to ask Microsoft to retain the option for traditional menus? Why shouldn't I encourage others who would like the same choice to also ask Microsoft for that choice?

                      Microsoft can say no - in which case my opinion of Microsoft as a supplier will diminish - but what business is it of yours (or anyone else's) that I ask Microsoft for that choice? What business is it of yours if I feel that Microsoft are less worthy as a supplier for not offering the choice, even as a paid option?

                      "If you don't like how things change in a job - be that equipment provided, management style or even staff room perks, sometimes it becomes necessary to move on, be that to a new company or career. It happens to people daily, with a lot less negative effects than being raped for "wearing the wrong clothes"."

                      But this isn't just about a decision made by management. Management never had a choice to make. That choice was removed from them; and from everyone. And the discussion wasn't left at "if you don't like change in a company, leave that company". Very specifically the suggestion was made to even go so far as to change careers to the point that one worked in a career without computers at all.

                      At this point, in 2014, that is recommending that someone make a change in career with massive qualitative - and income - implications.

                      I absolutely do not get how a potentially massive quality of life change is a rational or acceptable expected response to a desire for choice in a software UI?

                      We're not talking about a minor change like "how the tables are laid out in the break room". This is closer to the world's overwhelmingly dominant semi truck manufacturer changing all the displays on their semi trucks to Klingon, and embedding them in the roof instead of on the dash. In response to drivers wanting the option of buying semi trucks with the displays in English and on the dash you say "if a driver doesn't like the change he should quit, potentially seeking employment where driving isn't involved."

                      It is a preposterously disproportionate response.

              2. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

                Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                Well said Mr Pott.

                I've been using computers since 1972. Those were the days of punched cards, paper tape and batch runs overnight. Then I got a PDP-11/40 to play with for my degree project. I've been writing software and building the odd bit of hardware to go with it ever since.

                Been there, done that got the 'T-shirt' (in larger sizes these days).

                I'm close to retiring so yes I will get a job that does not involve computers in a little over two years when I hit 65. Until then I have to use Microsoft in my day job. For my personal use it is OSX, Linux and and the occassional bit of OpenVMS when I run up the Dec Alpha 2100 that I have in the garage.

                Windows is trying desperatly to be everythnig to everyone (much like Ubuntu seems to be) and is IMHO doomed to failure. IT won't happen overnight because far too many businesses are totally dependant upon thei software to function. A case of 'form over function' but hey what do I know, I can only do Octal addition.

              3. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                "The loss of a job - let alone the requirement to change careers to something so dramatic as "does not use computers" if fucking traumatic. It absolutely can impart the very same feelings of loss of control, worthlessness and so forth as rape."

                Not to trivialise the impact of rape, but with good counselling and support from family and friends, rape doesn't automatically imply that you have to downgrade your home, get rid of your nice car, forgo those nice holidays you used to have, and never be able to eat in the restaurants you once enjoyed.

                This is what the deluded fool is telling people to do.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Trollface

                  Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                  Microsoft rapes my computer every time is boots up.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                  > rape doesn't automatically imply that you have to downgrade your home, get rid of your nice car, forgo those nice holidays you used to have, and never be able to eat in the restaurants you once enjoyed.

                  Neither does changing career.

              4. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
                Thumb Up

                Re: Many of us are forced to ... HOLY SHIT!

                Seriously Trevor, have you ever considered writing dialogues for Quentin Tarantino movies? Those for the actors not playing the part of Sun People, that is.

                1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                  Re: Many of us are forced to ... HOLY SHIT!

                  Well, if we're being serious, in all the things I've tried to write, it is "writing dialogue" which I find the hardest. It makes me sad, as - ultimately - the thing I want to do with my life is write a sci fi trilogy I've been working on for some time. Sadly, that's hard if you suck at dialogue.

            2. Cipher
              FAIL

              Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

              This article and comments thread reminds me why I need to stop reading Mr. Potts:

              The rape analogy would get many people fired, most commentards on hand moderation and is plain ridiculous. The asshole remark surely would...

              Potts seems to be the only author that feels the need to write very long articles, followed by multiple incursions into the comments to use gratutitous language to defend every single point he makes in nit pick style.

              Shame too, sometimes he makes good points...

              1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                "The rape analogy would get many people fired, most commentards on hand moderation and is plain ridiculous. The asshole remark surely would..."

                I'm sorry you feel that way, and I genuinely apologize if I've offended. That said, I do feel that in this case the comparison is, in fact, valid.

                This isn't like an employer setting a rule and the employee having to obey. It's so much bigger than that. The employer doesn't even have a choice here. It absolutely is an individual (well, a company) in an unapproachably powerful position simply forcing their will on others.

                Now, in and of itself, there's no way that's like rape. There are a number of avenues available to the individual in any rational society to address this. Starting with "asking the developer to provide choice", through to "getting lots of others to raise their voices in unison" and so forth.

                But that gets very different when we talk about "submit or find a different career". If those are the only two choices allowed then I very much so believe that has parallels with any number of traumatic events you could name.

                To be clear: I am very specifically comparing the idea that an individual should have no choice but to choose between dramatic career change and accepting a UI they don't like as putting that individual in a massively negative place where they would feel helpless, hopeless, without power or recourse and for the stupidest and most unbelievably fucked up of trivial reasons. So fucked up that - to me at least - is absolutely is as crazy as saying depriving someone of their power via rape is okay "because they wore the wrong thing".

                Any rational society would allow for an entire universe of possible alternative actions and outcomes. "A third party is going to impose a change you don't like. If you don't like it, quit and/or change careers" is completely disproportionate. Somewhere in there should be the ability to ask why this change is occurring. To seek alternatives to this change.

                Nobody should have the right to tell you should be made to change careers because you don't like a UI.

                I accept the possibility that this just means my outlook on life is horribly skewed and that I, in fact, am the bad person. Hell, I'd be barking mad not to believe that could be the case.

                ...but I see in both cases an overwhelming and unstoppable force saying that something massively negative should occur to an individual for the most trivial and outright insane of reasons. If you believe that makes me a bad person, I accept that. Maybe I am.

                In the meantime, however, I will continue to believe that the guy who suggests changing careers is the appropriate response to an enforced UI change is the bad person.

          2. Hit Snooze

            @ Trevor

            If you had the choice of losing your job or being raped what would you choose?

            Rape and losing your job are in two very different categories that cannot be compared to each other.

            1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

              Re: @ Trevor

              "If you had the choice of losing your job or being raped what would you choose?"

              Honestly? I'd chose the rape, though only by the narrowest of margins and only if the job loss was "career loss" class as exemplified by the "a job without computers" portion of the comment. I don't remotely expect that everyone will feel the same, and I think the specific circumstances matter a hell of a lot in making that call.

              To be honest, I feel that just by asking that question is such a blatantly black-and-white fashion you are trivializing both rape and career loss without giving any real consideration to the effects of either.

              Both are traumatic events that are horrible, but I will heal from the rape. Lose my job and I might never be able to return to a position where you make a similar income, have the same opportunities for advancement, etc. I might lose your house, I might lose everything.

              "Rape and losing your job are in two very different categories that cannot be compared to each other."

              Oh no? Why not? Rape comes in two parts: violence - or the threat thereof - enacted against the individual is the first part, and the easiest to overcome.

              The second part - the damning and damaging part - is a lifelong feeling of a loss of control. You feel like you don't have value. That you don't have worth. You feel that maybe you deserved it, that something about is fundamentally wrong. Some days are better than others, granted...but it never leaves you. It haunts you. It underpins your personality and serves as a subconscious, silent reminder that - underneath it all - you're just an object, a toy, a disposable thing.

              There is nothing trivial about rape; not because of the violence of the event - and remember many rapes aren't violent in any way - but because of the legacy it leaves, imprinted on the mind of the victim...often for a lifetime.

              Losing one's job comes in two parts. The initial loss of income and it's immediate fallout, and the long term effects, should this result in a major quantitative negative change in quality of life.

              Loosing one's job - especially in cases where an individual cannot return to the level of income or possibility of career advancement they had previously - can lead to feelings of loss of control, powerlessness and hopelessness. The fewer your options for new employment, the more you feel like a worthless "thing". A toy, to be discarded. There can be massively negative social implications; humiliation, ostracisation, even the disintegration of that individual's family.

              The loss of a job - especially one that is of such a dramatic change that one is "working without computers" - can be hugely traumatic. Going from $100,000+ a year to digging ditches has absolutely proven to make people suicidal, amongst other things.

              Being perfectly honest, I fear the concept of that level of job loss - especially against my will and over something so trivial as expressing a preference for a given UI! - even more than I do rape. At least people understand rape. There are trauma centers and counseling and an entire constellation of support mechanisms to help people cope with the psychological trauma that comes form that.

              But the long term psychological trauma of having one's life turned upside down due to career-ending-class job loss? As a society, we won't even touch it. We will cheerfully let people kill themselves off rather than face up to the fact that this is problem.

              When I think about the sort of job loss discussed here - massive career change to the point of "not working with computers - I picture the issues of reintegration of soldiers, or the problems faced by an aging population who lose their jobs but can't get a new one. I've seen instances of that being every bit as horrible - and as frightening to me - as rape.

              But there are pitifully few social institutions to help those who have lost their job. There is a massive amount of social animosity towards them - "get a job, ya bum!" - and fuck all in terms of sympathy if they've gotten a job, (or two, or three or four) but so far below what they were making previously that they sink into a massively long term clinical depression...or commit suicide.

              We mock, disparage, disrespect and discourage those who lose their jobs, especially if the individuals "falls so low" as to go from a well paying job to "one without computers involved."

              I can see in both cases a loss of power. I can see in both cases feeling like an object, a "disposable person". I can see in both cases feeling as though I had no value, and never could have value in the eyes of others.

              But only in one case do I see that society would be ready and willing to try and help me fight my way back to feeling human again.

              Before you fly off the handle of political correctness, I strongly encourage you to spend some time with people who have honestly tried to rebuild their lives after losing a good paying job, but failed. Those who have put years into it, who have worked the minimum wage jobs, lost their houses, or been told time and time again they're "too old".

              Please try to take the time to understand that rape isn't alone in being a life-changing negative event. Trivializing job loss - especially career loss - is every bit as asinine as trivializing rape.

              There are those who feel that in this thread I have trivialized rape. I honestly don't believe I have. I believe, instead, that the people who decry my comparison are trivializing the long term emotional damage that forced career loss can - and does - have on many people in our society.

              I also believe that such comparisons must be made, if we are ever to force ourselves - and our society as a whole - to confront the problem and find solutions that preserve the dignity of those affected. Hate me if you want to; that is what - to me - this thread has been about.

              1. Anonymous Bullard
                IT Angle

                Re: @ Trevor

                Honestly? I'd chose the rape

                If you chose it, then it's not rape.

                Anyway, this whole thing is a strawman on a valid point you originally made - I just wish you gave a less controversial analogy for the ignoramuses to pick up on.

                1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                  Re: @ Trevor

                  "If you chose it, then it's not rape."

                  Actually, that's not true. The new standard is "enthusiastic participation", not mere acceptance, specifically because of situations where choosing to be violated is the least horrible of a bunch of very horrible offerings. Look to the new laws in California, specifically regarding coitus on campuses.

        2. xenny

          Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

          > There are many many jobs out there that don't involve using Microsoft software, or even computers.

          most of the latter are on borrowed time until people in the former finish writing shell scripts.

        3. Primus Secundus Tertius

          Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

          I, too, get downvoted or flamed if I admit that I like some of the tricks that Access and One Note can do. But not as badly as the time I criticised St Snowden.

          1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

            Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

            "I, too, get downvoted or flamed if I admit that I like some of the tricks that Access and One Note can do. But not as badly as the time I criticised St Snowden."

            You folks do realise that the world isn't black and white, right? Liking something the Microsoft has to offer doesn't mean you like everything Microsoft does, or says, or sells. Similarly, liking something non-Microsoft - or even hating something Microsoft - doesn't mean a dislike for all things Microsoft.

            What's even more shocking, is that you can like something Microsoft offers, but still believe that they should offer a choice of options to others.

            I, for example, like most Microsoft technologies. I think Windows is a great operating system...and Windows 10, even in the technical preview stage, is easily the best yet.

            I love Windows Server 2012 R2, but I'm less of a fan of Windows Server 10. I also love CentOS 6...but think that systemd - and thus CentOS 7 - can go straight to hell.

            I think that how Microsoft treats customers, partners and end users is appalling, but I cannot deny the strength and capability of technologies like SQL server, Exchange or Microsoft Dynamics.

            I think you'll find that it isn't a like or dislike something that sets the internet hate machine upon you. It is either A) stating that your anecdotal experience has been X and thus nobody else should have a problem or B) taking an extremist point of view that says other people shouldn't be allowed choice.

            Which keeps coming back to the concept of "invalidating the preferences of others" as being that which attracts the internet hate machine. Believe whatever you want, in your own church. Just don't start demanding that the rights of others be curtailed because of your religion.

            A group of people saying "Microsoft, please give us a choice of UIs" is a group of people asking that Microsoft respect the preferences of others, while at the same time respecting their preferences. It's is about living together in harmony.

            A group of people saying "Microsoft, only have the UI I like and never allow choice for those others who have different preferences" is about a notable lack of respect for others. It is about forcing one's belief system on others; it is about arrogance and a sense of haughty superiority.

            I've seen plenty of discussions on these forums about the positive aspects of Microsoft technologies, features and services where people in no way get viciously downvoted for talking openly about liking them. I thus submit that demonstrating respect for the preferences of others (or a lack thereof) is in most cases going to be the deciding factor in the number of downvotes you attract.

            There absolutely are some real Microsoft haters here who loathe all Microsoft technologies and services...but they are emphatically in the minority. We all have to live with these technologies...and most of us respect them. Respecting the individuals, departments or even entire corporations who make asinine decisions that demonstrate huge disrespect for preferences - or requirements - of others can be and often is separate from respect for the technology produced by those people/departments/companies.

            And for the record, OneNote is awesome. I really like the Android version; it's pretty much the only thing that makes the pen on my Note 2 worth a damn.

      2. dogged

        Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

        The ribbon is fine. What are you, a secretary? You memorized every option in a bloody word processor? You count beans with your spreadsheet? You shit on humanity with your Powerpoints?

        Then I don't know what you are but you are not an IT pro.

        Note that there is no ribbon in Visual Studio and it only exists in applications used by people who don't do IT.

        Personally, I quite like it. It means when I am forced to write a spec document I don't need a fucking map to find "indent".

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

          Man, I miss those little plastic "cheet sheets" we used to stick on the keyboard above the function keys that had all the commands for Word Perfect 5.1. Took a few days, but you got 99.9% of the commands you'd actually use memorized cold. Then, when you had to hunt for one, it was right there, on your keyboard.

          I can't remember, did those come with word perfect, or were they made by a third party?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

            They came shipped with WP and were like rocking horse shite if you lost yours (or more likely , nicked).

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

          The ribbon is fine.

          Customisable toolbars and menus are also fine.

          What's wrong with giving a choice - "ribbon", or "toolbar+menu"?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

            > What's wrong with giving a choice - "ribbon", or "toolbar+menu"?

            Increased code, increased code complexity, increased attack vectors, increased bug counts and increased support complexity. Then there's the problem that the toolbar+menu UI was already broken and needed redesigning.

            Just the idea of trying to support and maintain a small product with two completely different, incompatible UIs brings me out in a cold sweat, let alone something the size of Office.

            1. Anonymous Bullard

              Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

              Increased code, ...

              I don't know the exact figures, but Microsoft makes £billions per quarter, most of that's from Office. So you're saying that they're unable to scrape together a small team to maintain the toolbar+menu?

              toolbar+menu UI was already broken and needed redesigning.

              Yet they're still managing with it on one of their most complex applications: Visual Studio.

              1. illiad

                Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

                Its NOT that its 'broken'... they think it is great... I doubt very much that they use it day after day though..

            2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

              Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

              "Just the idea of trying to support and maintain a small product with two completely different, incompatible UIs brings me out in a cold sweat, let alone something the size of Office."

              So Ubitmenu are significantly superior to Microsoft in skill? http://www.ubit.ch/ I don't understand how that could be.

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Many of us are forced to use MS Software

              >Just the idea of trying to support and maintain a small product with two completely different, incompatible UIs brings me out in a cold sweat, let alone something the size of Office.

              You obviously have not and do not work in enterprise IT software development. Maintaining multiple UI's isn't that hard, but then you do need software engineers who know about structured design and modular development etc. etc. ...

    2. Dan 55 Silver badge

      Although it was a stupid idea, you can change a checkbox and nothing gets hidden ever again.

      Unfortunately there's no unstupid option for the ribbon. Stuff is hidden in drop-downs and odd groups and tabs and you are forced to learn where they've been arbitrarily placed.

      At least the Mac version still has the menu so the ribbon can be safely ignored.

    3. This post has been deleted by its author

    4. captain veg Silver badge

      Re: Nonsense.

      Bollocks!

      > The Office toolbar / menu UI was broken

      Yes, it was broken in a previous round of cheap UI gimmickry. Simply unbreaking it would have been the correct action, not wholesale replacement by something even more bizarrely inexplicable.

      > It even supports the old menu shortcut keys.

      No. It. Doesn't. I don't know how this myth ever gained traction. Almost none of the shortcuts I had ingrained into my fingers work post-2007.

      -A.

      1. Gotno iShit Wantno iShit

        Re: Nonsense.

        I don't know how this myth ever gained traction. Almost none of the shortcuts I had ingrained into my fingers work post-2007.

        It gained traction because Microsoft said it was so, it was both true and a whopping fib at the same time. The direct ones such as ctrl+p mostly did I think survive. What we lost wholesale was keyboard navigation of the menus. If I had a pound for every time I've typed alt+f, v or alt+f, u and immediately cursed Ballmer to hell and damnation I'd have a considerably smaller mortgage by now.

        1. king of foo

          Re: Nonsense.

          Stop feeding the ac trolls!

          Now... if you're (still) struggling with the ribbon interface there are free (as in beer) options at your disposal. You could rock your own vba addon, or, to mess with the actual ribbon xml check out this dude's site; he's a legend

          http://www.rondebruin.nl/win/s2/win001.htm

          ...but I agree, we shouldn't have to resort to this sort of thing at all. So far as I can tell the ribbon is more "finger friendly" and therefore MS don't need to accommodate 2 menu systems, hence a mixture of iPad envy and laziness resulted in the ABOMINATION that is the ribbon.

          1. captain veg Silver badge

            Re: Nonsense.

            > if you're (still) struggling with the ribbon interface there are free (as in beer) options at your disposal

            Indeed. I use the Ubit add-in, without which my sanity would be in an even worse place.

            http://www.ubit.ch/software/ubitmenu-languages/

            -A.

            1. Gotno iShit Wantno iShit

              Re: Nonsense.

              None of the addons restore the shortcuts lost because they all reside in a new tab on the ribbon. The two examples in my post above do not work with ubit. Try it, I have.

    5. Tezfair
      FAIL

      I can just about tollerate the ribbon for basic use, however as a very occasional dabbler in Access I had the misfortune to be asked to amend a 2007 format DB. After spending a ridiculously long time trying to find 'stuff' in Access I rang the customer back and said that I wasn't going to develop it any further.

      I don't have time to p*ss around looking for stuff that was in toolbars and neatly organised rather than being in any of 3 locations depends on what i clicked on prior.

    6. illiad

      er, people ARE forced to use Microsoft software...

      If you work for a big company, management are just TOO frightened to NOT use microsoft...

      when we switched to the latest Office, this poor IT guy, here, had to go round and enable not just compatibility mode, but styles and fonts that everyone used, so letters still were standard...

      1. CLD

        Re: er, people ARE forced to use Microsoft software...

        "If you work for a big company, management are just TOO frightened to NOT use microsoft..."

        I completely disagree, I have seen businesses use other products, moving away from MS because of the cost and then coming back because the staff ultimately request it, they notice a hit to their productivity, or they have other more valuable, third party apps which the business needs which are built on top of the MS tech.

        The cost of moving away from MS products pales compared to the cost of moving away from all the key business applications which ride on the back of that technology.

        "when we switched to the latest Office, this poor IT guy, here, had to go round and enable not just compatibility mode, but styles and fonts that everyone used, so letters still were standard..."

        Really, this should have been tested and planned as part of the roll-out. The compatibility mode could have been done via group policy. Not sure about the styles and fonts, but pretty sure there would have been ways to roll that out as part of the deployment.

        1. illiad

          Re: er, people ARE forced to use Microsoft software...

          sorry, but my company is not very rich, unlike most.... it is licensed charity, using mostly volunteers.. and I am one of only 4 people who have any clue about computers!!!

    7. keithpeter Silver badge
      Windows

      Office Ribbon

      "It even supports the old menu shortcut keys."

      Nope. I was actually using MS Wrd 2010 today for 6 hours or so doing a job on a deadline. Kept losing time looking for functions I can reach with Alt-keyboard shortcuts on MS 2k and on LibreOffice at home. That is *actual billable time* y'now. Around 10% as I had to break rhythm and use the rodent.

      Scale that up over all of us mature members of the workforce over say the next 25 years...

  3. Dan 55 Silver badge

    How easy is it to turn on in the release version?

    With a registry hack and copying a dll or two from the beta version can the monitoring be turned back on?

    If I judiciously add an entry in hosts can I divert the upload elsewhere?

    This is MS we're talking about so I wouldn't like to place a bet on it...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How easy is it to turn on in the release version?

      "With a registry hack and copying a dll or two from the beta version can the monitoring be turned back on?"

      More than likely it'll be something easier than that: something that doesn't require administrative privileges or a restart; that way it can be done silently.

      "If I judiciously add an entry in hosts can I divert the upload elsewhere?"

      Doubt it. They're probably using a number of hardcoded IPv4 quartets and IPv6 clusters to practically guarantee delivery. Credits to milos this list is well-hidden and encrypted with Microsoft's key so only they can edit it (and again, it can probably be updated silently in case numbers have to be changed).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: How easy is it to turn on in the release version?

        If this was the case someone surely would be able to sniff the traffic, sift the wheat from the chaff and get a log of all effected address's then you could potentially do a firewall/gateway block/deny/drop on the address's thats unless it all just resolves back to microsoft.com in which case you just broke windows update.

        Although if it works off specific ports thats also a possibility.

    2. illiad

      Re: How easy is it to turn on in the release version?

      IF you are talking about win10, it is NOT a beta... it is a PREVIEW, NOT even an alpha!!!

      of course, the RC version is **MONTHS** away... you have more hope of predicting 20C heat for next month, than what the RC will be like... :P

    3. Mark 65

      Re: How easy is it to turn on in the release version?

      I'd say that if this instrumentation is left in the final release, especially key-logging and other privacy invading parts, then Microsoft will have signed its own death warrant. There will be no trust and there could be no second chance. If a company with so much history of abuse and poor coding believed that it was acceptible to leave such code in place even "switched off" then that is the end for them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Unhappy

        Re: How easy is it to turn on in the release version?

        Hang a maybe on that death warrant. I really doubt it. A solid majority don't seem to give a fuck about any of this. It's just too nebulous. Mass arrests as a result? That might get someone's attention. Hell, the people that I talk to around this are all of the opinion that "you mean they weren't doing all this before." And I've got a LOT of samples. Get's me depressed.

  4. chivo243 Silver badge
    Headmaster

    What would happen if

    Some smart guy, not me. identified all ports MS communicates with it's systems, then publish said list of ports, and instructions for blocking such ports etc.

    I get the sinking feeling it's done over port 80

    1. Charles 9

      Re: What would happen if

      It's probably also SSL/TLS encrypted and uses the same channels as the update system, meaning breaking the spyware also breaks your update system, leaving you open to malware attack.

      Kinda like the only way to keep your home safe from intruders is to keep a vicious human-aggressive dog on the premises. Keeps the intruders away, yes, but also likely to bite you, and it's not like you have much in the way of alternatives. The ruffians are already notorious for kicking doors and bashing windows, and the ones that still resist, they torch.

      1. dogged

        Re: What would happen if

        > It's probably also SSL/TLS encrypted and uses the same channels as the update system, meaning breaking the spyware also breaks your update system, leaving you open to malware attack.

        ONLY if it's intended for use in the long term. Otherwise there's no reason why it should be.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    About-face

    > Truth be told, I honestly don't think anyone but the extreme nutter fringe had, or has, a problem with being tracked in the preview. When you download the preview it is pretty up front about the fact that it will monitor everything it can find to monitor.

    Funny how you were ranting in the comments of another Win 10 review article about this very thing. I guess you are an extreme nutter...

    You should acknowledge the commentards that had to correct you about the differences between a technical preview and a beta release, what to expect out of a technical preview, the EULA, etc.

    http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2014/10/02/one_windows_how_does_that_work_and_wtf_is_a_universal_app/

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: About-face

      I never had a problem with being tracked in the technical preview. I had - and have - problems with the inability to turn this stuff off, or even to know what is tracking me and why. And for all the reasons that were explained in the article...and in the subsequent posts to the very thread you linked.

      I do, however, find it curious you left out the conversation that starts here, however, as it is closely related and relevant as a progression of the dialogue.

      I strongly encourage anyone interested to read both threads in their totality. Good points were raised by a number of people.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows 10 who cares?

    Why can't Microsoft concentrate on making Windows secure? Why do I still see so many Windows PCs splattered with adware, malware and (2 today) p*wned by remote operators? Surely the browsers should be locked down to prevent anything being installed? Downloads only from white listed websites? Rant over.

    1. jaywin

      Re: Windows 10 who cares?

      Because people use them.

    2. jason 7

      Re: Windows 10 who cares?

      Also often the main cause of infection isn't necessarily Windows. More often it's user ignorance and other software creating other vulnerabilities (Java etc.).

      Bit like criticising a car for having doors after the owner willingly opened it and let a nutjob get in.

      It's a pretty tough job making millions of lines of code water-tight and idiot proof.

      Personally I would prefer my OS to have a full custom install option that lets me cherry pick the bits I really need and leave out the stuff I never use. IMO having stuff installed I never use is just another avenue for attack.

      1. Paul Shirley

        Re: Windows 10 who cares?

        "Also often the main cause of infection isn't necessarily Windows"

        But sometimes it's the anticompetitive business strategies MS so love overriding the slightest bit of common sense - like embedding crapware like IE in the OS where it could do maximum damage and gain maximum exposure. Until MS genuinely value my security above their business skullduggery Windows will remain infested.

    3. illiad

      Re: Windows 10 who cares?

      yes, MS.. PLEASE have a close look at how Firefox and it addons work... eg adblock etc..

      1. Message From A Self-Destructing Turnip
        Linux

        Re: Windows 10 who cares?

        "Personally I would prefer my OS to have a full custom install option that lets me cherry pick the bits I really need and leave out the stuff I never use.'

        I see what you did there!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          WTF?

          Re: Windows 10 who cares?

          The sad and sorry truth is that I have seriously more control by using Windows Server on my workstations than installing the designed-for desktop version on that same workstation. [The memory management is also a selling point, but beside it here.]

          1. Charles 9

            Re: Windows 10 who cares?

            "The sad and sorry truth is that..."

            The SADDER and SORRIER truth is that the desktop version of Windows is not meant for people like you but for Joe Ordinary who wants something they can just turn on, browse Netflix, get the e-mail from their boss with the next week's schedule, do their taxes, oh and even play a few games. The BARELY-computer-literate, IOW. A famous Douglas Adams quote springs to mind about the audacity of complete fools and the idea you just can't make something foolproof. How do you cater to such a crowd WITHOUT ticking them off (since if you tick them off, you'll probably lose more than them)?

  7. Novex
    Black Helicopters

    Proprietarty

    All proprietary software carries with it a risk - that there could be any kind of code inside that users can't see that could be doing any kind of thing with your computer or data. This applies to every company, be it the big boys like Apple, Microsoft, Google, or the little guys working on their own in bedrooms.

    The retail and business releases of W10 should not, in any fair world, have any snooping code in them. But do we trust MS if they say it won't/doesn't have it?

    Ultimately our usage of any software comes down to trust, both in the developer and other users, because we can't check every single line of code in every single program we use ourselves.

    1. Charles 9

      Re: Proprietarty

      As a number of exploits recently have shown, this trust issue is not limited to proprietary software, since we as humans lack the ability to be eternally vigilant in everything we do; otherwise, we'd never trust anyone and nothing would get done. Makes you wonder if you wake up tomorrow and realize you and everyone else in the world is essentially living under the Sword of Damocles.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Proprietarty

      Of course MS could be ordered to include snoop code and then have an injunction not to discusss/reveal it or whatever tricks the spooks like to play.

      If only it was just MS we didn't have to trust

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The price of freedom goes up

    why its quality is steadily decreasing.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "what mechanisms exist..."

    "...for Microsoft to reactivate its instrumentation once we've tried to set it to "disabled""

    Err, Windows Updates? They can do whatever they flipping like. Even if W10 has no spyware, they can add it again later.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh, the irony!

    "Any operating system from any vendor that collects large amounts of information about its users and then pipes that home is, in this political climate, probably a Very Bad Plan"

    Hasn't Google been doing this for years? Why would an advertising company spend sqillions on providing a free adware ^H^H^H^H^H^H operating system to just give it away without just a little bit of personal info?....

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Truth be told, I honestly don't think anyone but the extreme nutter fringe had, or has, a problem with being tracked in the preview."

    My question to you is would corporations be willing to trust experimenting with this privacy violating monster if it is being used around business sensitive information?

    Would a medical facility consider using a copy of Windows 10, in anticipation of future conversion to Windows 10, if just letting that computer on their network with patient sensitive information would be a violation of HIPAA?

    Yes, corporation execs could evaluate Windows 10 and keep it away from their network. But just knowing that it does spy on you would further their mistrust in the system

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Would a medical facility consider using a copy of Windows 10, in anticipation of future conversion to Windows 10, if just letting that computer on their network with patient sensitive information would be a violation of HIPAA?"

      Considering its early release nature, anyone who uses this software in a production environment should probably be barred from using anything more sophisticated than a mechanical adder. If you're going to try this out, please set aside an isolated pilot room for the job. And if the higher-ups object, invoke HIPAA to your defense as "the only way to be sure."

      1. illiad

        "Would a medical facility consider using a copy of **preview** Windows 10, in anticipation of future conversion to Windows 10"

        Only in the same way a chief MD would get their 15 year old daughter to work as a nurse there!!!

        - "hey she knows all the stuff, she is quite often with me on my round - she will qualify in only a few years!!!! :) "

        I am sure the FINAL win 10 will be much better then!!! the feedback is for YOU to tell MS what you want!!

  12. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    2 points...

    2 points, one defending Microsoft and one not.

    1) Every pre-release type thing (anything earlier than a beta, if not some betas) from Microsoft has made it REALLY clear in the contract they Microsoft needs debugging information, that Microsoft can and will collect more information than crash reports and phone home with it. They basically say to use these prereleases to test out functionality and NOT use it for any important work, particularly work involving any kind of privacy agreement. It would be a good idea, however, for someone or other to find the code IS doing this invasive logging, to make sure it's removed (not just disabled waiting for later re-enablement) in later releases. I find it EXTREMELY unlikely this'd be left in though, companies know how debugging works and to remove debugging code in release versions of software and Microsoft is no exception.

    2) On the other hand... no, sending the list of all software installed on your system is NOT required for updates. My Ubuntu systems update themselves just fine, without sending out a list of all installed software. It downloads a full list of available software, dependency info included, and the update list is calculated locally. Of course in double-tinfoil-hat-land, one could eventually determine what software I have installed by seeing what updates I've downloaded.

  13. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    "My question to you is would corporations be willing to trust experimenting with this privacy violating monster if it is being used around business sensitive information?

    Would a medical facility consider using a copy of Windows 10, in anticipation of future conversion to Windows 10, if just letting that computer on their network with patient sensitive information would be a violation of HIPAA?"

    They should not be using pre-release, untested software on their secure LAN. Doing so would be irresponsible. However, the hospital I'm familiar with, they have a LAN for the HIPAA-protected stuff that's locked down tight (if I had to guess, if the Win10 machine was hooked up to this it would not get an IP address, and the unrecognized device trying to get a DHCP address would set off intrusion alarms); a guest LAN that is (as the name implies) for guests, and I think an intermediate-level LAN or two so machines that don't handle HIPAA stuff can get on without being exposed to random guests PCs and tablets. Really testing a Win10 machine even in it's current state would be no problem if it's just tested on anything but the most secure LAN.

  14. DeadEyes

    Really

    A trial beta version of an OS collection information and usage..... well I am shocked! In the terms conditions as well? Ok you get my point and obviously if a feature like that ever made into a finished product then its a completely different matter. I do however find it amazing that one min people have an opinion that privacy and anonymity are "enemies of the internet" and the next min everyone is outraged at the invasion of privacy (not that it matters which company it is). Sometimes I think you might as well put all your personal life on a website, give the owners copyright control, let them suggest how to run your social live, track you with a key logger that has a build in browser, upload all your data to an advertising company, strap a camera to your face and call it progress.... just saying ..........maybe I should buy a 100% proprietary computer with a fruit sticker on it for a massively inflated price that would show people I am cool :)

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    what's the point

    I don't really see the point of all this tracking built into a development version. Precisely because of all that feedback, people aren't going to use it for anything other than kicking the tyres a bit. Nobody is going to do serious work on it, or live with it for several weeks. So what use is all that feedback you collect from a system whose mere presence will ensure that the computer is not going to be used for the normal tasks someone might use it for?

    1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

      Re: what's the point

      Well, I, for one, am using it as my primary OS specifically so that Microsoft can get real world information back from my usage. Many of us are choosing to do this for just that reason. It is our chance to have a voice - however small - in how this all turns out.

      1. Dethstar

        Re: what's the point

        If you can afford to do that. Your not really the sort of person that has any significant IP or client data to consider. With many clients these days dropping vendors or services or key products because they compromise their data through the use of cloud based services. This could be the ultimate violation of many client/vendor contracts common in some environments.

  16. M Gale

    Enforced career changes

    See now, fortunately I know how to get up to my elbows in dangerous equipment. On top of previous experience, being on the wrong side of the economic downturn means I've had the lovely opportunity to spend a month doing bonded labour a mandatory work placement for a nearby plastic recycling firm. I already have plenty of that kind of experience anyway, amongst the retail stuff. Even got the little certificate with "Excellent" written across all performance metrics to prove it.

    However I have to wonder how some 18 stone, neckbearded, doughnut-munching "admin" would cope with a job where the 25Kg single-man limit is more of a guideline, where 50 hours a week of brutal graveyard shifts dragging crap out of trailers is the norm, where your shins become more bumps, bruises and scrapes than skin, would cope?

    I have seen people come into these sorts of jobs and leave the same day. They simply cannot cope with the workload. And people here are are suggesting "just change careers"?

    I suggest these people go work in a postal sorting depot, in a recycling firm, in a distribution warehouse, in any number of other crap jobs for a month or two. Let alone 6, 12,18 months or more.

    I'm wondering how many of those people would be crying out to be forcibly buggered than deal with it any more? I'm wondering how many of them would just be crying themselves to sleep every night. Or every morning, as the case most likely would be.

    I'm pretty sure it would be a non-zero number.

    As for me, I'm trying to get out of that crap. I've done my time, thankyou very much. Can I have a job that pays some real money and doesn't have me risking life and limb every single damned shift, please?

    1. dogged

      Re: Enforced career changes

      Probably. Can you code? My inbox is always heaving with pimps offering contracts these days.

  17. Geoffrey W

    Trevor, this article provides both an example of why your posts are often entertaining to read, and an explanation.

    The entertainment comes more from reading the comments than deriving any value from the article, if only to watch you manically responding to each and every criticism with an increasingly profane and angry attitude.

    The explanation seems to be that you are hopped on speed, which makes a lot of sense now we know. How 'bout some barbies to slow ya down a bit? Or some dots to make it all go wobbly?

    Having said all that the article was rather good.

  18. Graham Cobb Silver badge

    If I have paid for the software, Microsoft should not collect any data at all

    Basic things like "what programs are installed" and "what is the hardware configuration of your PC" are generally collected as part of operating system updates and/or automated troubleshooting systems because they provide clear technical benefits in solving technical issues. It would be pretty insane to say "don't collect this info, because NSA".

    We will have to agree to differ. There is absolutely no excuse for sending any information about my computer, what I have installed on it, how often I use it, or what I use it for unless I have asked for help and explicitly understand that this information is needed (in which case I will carefully consider who I ask, like I would carefully consider who I take my PC to for servicing).

    In this case, it isn't the NSA I am worried about -- why should Microsoft know? I don't tell Google what software I have installed, I don't tell Amazon where else I shop or what I buy there, I don't tell my car insurance company who I choose to use for home insurance or how many bedrooms it has. Why on earth would I provide any personal information to Microsoft just because I buy their product? This isn't Facebook offering me something for "free" in exchange for personal information.

    1. dogged

      Re: If I have paid for the software, Microsoft should not collect any data at all

      > I don't tell Google what software I have installed

      You do if you use their OS.

      > I don't tell Amazon where else I shop or what I buy there

      Tracking. It's a thing.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: If I have paid for the software, Microsoft should not collect any data at all

        > I don't tell Google what software I have installed

        You do if you use their OS.

        What's that got to do with anything?? I don't use their mobile or cloud based OS. I use a desktop OS, which was paid in full. Why is it any of Microsoft's business what I do on it?

        You object to Google using your information in order to personalise your experience, but you don't mind Microsoft taking it... when they don't even have an excuse to take it.

        1. dogged

          Re: If I have paid for the software, Microsoft should not collect any data at all

          > You object to Google using your information in order to personalise your experience, but you don't mind Microsoft taking it... when they don't even have an excuse to take it.

          au contraire I most certainly do mind. Which is why I run WSUS in a W2K12 server VM at home and do not allow windows boxes in the house to use Windows Update directly.

          Don't presume to tell me what I do and don't mind.

  19. Kepler
    Thumb Up

    Excellent article!

    An excellent article in a number of ways. Many specific points were spot-on.

    Moreover, it was empathetic and balanced, and reasoned rather than reflexive (as it might have been had *I* written it!). Trevor made an effort to see things from Microsoft's perspective, but also to explain to Microsoft why so many users are so mad at it, and no longer trust it.

    If I were to add anything to what he said about putting security and privacy first, it would be flexibility and user control. (Meaning control by users, not control of users!) And he specifically made the point that Microsoft has denied users options time and again when it easily could have given us a choice; he only failed to repeat this when summarizing.

    Again, well done!

  20. TPX

    Windows 10 and instrumentalization.

    I enjoyed the article. I did not think of it as a rant, but really informative. I am working with the Windows 10 Preview. I would be a privacy first end user. I do not want my business on the cloud. I don't trust it. Its a bad idea for many obvious reasons. I do not want to type a letter of any sort using on line software. This is a ridiculous idea. I do not want my keystrokes logged. Privacy has always been and inalienable right. I when I buy an OS, I want to be able to have some control over it! They cost a lot of money. If they give it to me for free and tell me about the 'instrumentalization' written into the OS, then that would be something different. I generally like Windows 10, but now I worry about the updates on Windows 7. I didn't realize those updates needed to report back to Microsoft what software I was using. Now I am seeing a need for a home computer that never goes on line or needs to be updated. There are really too many ghouls obsessed with monitoring the humane race. It's a sickness and a violation.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows 10 built in key logger

    Has MS said the keylogger will removed for production?

    We are right to suspect the answer is...no.

    The tipoff will be MS introduces W10 and says not one word, not one syllable about the built in BB keylogger. Then we will know for sure it's there.

  22. Dethstar

    Business OS upgrade or another misplaced consumer toy?

    Great article. Pretty much sums up the thoughts of most people I know. We don't really need anything past Windows 7.

    We certainly did nothing to deserve Windows 8 though some they really had to buy a new laptop were grateful for 8.1 to replace 8 and all wish they could get the time back on wasted pilots of Windows 8.

    However, its been a long time since Microsoft created an OS anyone was really excited about other than their marketing department. I think many of those of my generation who remember a time before the war on privacy, remember that Microsoft actually started it. Look where the direction they lead took us?

    Dalliances with trying to put a live always on Camera and Mic in every living room, dodgy DRM, VOIP which actually made the, until then, relatively banal concept of a telephone conversion between 2 people (even in the same building) an amazing achievement.

    Now they are trying to give me something free....... The company which try to charge a user for addressing licensing issues they created or day 1 product issues..

    One has to wonder why and who is really paying and how. I am highly suspicious. When 8 was released and I developed a strange deaf condition when asked to sign any requisitions involving products which came with it.

    Wondering if this is going to finally be an upgrade we could live with in terms of a functioning business OS or a toy for consumer machines paid for by the data which will be collected on our business and the individuals in it. Unlike Windows 8. All reports seem to indicate the product itself is sound and unlike Windows 8, is actually usable and will not see productivity dive deeper than the Marianas Trench. So, what is the kicker here? Will MS be using this "upgrade" as a Trojan horse for the mass stealing of corporate data on the basis of individual licensing agreements or are we able to secure our business and keep our data safe without keeping MS out completely?

    Forgive my cynicism but with the sort of previous MS has, the prospect of installing another unknown from MS feels like letting Reggie Kray in to look after the kids and clean my gold brick collection.

    I will be waiting for those wiser than me to pull apart the OS and tell me what exactly is going on no matter how long it takes.

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