and 50 cents
Only an accountant would say that.
Comcast has publicly apologized to Conal O'Rourke, the accountant who claims he was fired for moaning about the ISP's lousy service. "What happened with Mr O'Rourke's service is completely unacceptable," said Charlie Herrin, Comcast's recently appointed VP of customer experience, in a company blog post. "Despite our attempts …
"Mr O’Rourke was employed in one of our internal firm services offices. The firm terminated his employment after an internal investigation concluded that Mr O’Rourke violated PwC’s ethical standards and practices, applicable to all of our people. The firm has explicit policies regarding employee conduct, we train our people in those policies, and we enforce them. Mr O’Rourke’s violation of these policies was the sole reason for his termination."
Translation:
"We're not going to lose a 30 million quid contract over that one little fc*ker!"
... the point of "wanting your old job back".
Really? Why would you want to work at a place that treats you like that again? And that will put you on the top of the next inevitable round of layoffs?
Is it a calculation to get back to a steady income in a holding pattern while immediately searching for something else? Or not having a "got fired" stain on your CV?
Seems like the stress of going to work back at a horrid sh*thole while job hunting would be better avoided by taking the payout from the legal settlement, recharge those batteries and then get into the job hunt refreshed.
"Really? Why would you want to work at a place that treats you like that again?"
There are two reasons (probably more, but..)
1. You're a pissant with no prospects, and are willing to take any job where your employer treats you like crap, because you can't find another job. (I'm not apologising for this one, there is NO excuse for going back to an employer who actively and publically treated you like shit. Pull out your nutsack, put up your chin and take it like a civilised human being. Your ex-employer is doing a good enough job of making themselves look like turds, don't help them and do it to yourself.)
2. You don't want the job back, but you do want your ex-employer to ask you to come back, like a dog with its tail between its legs, that they are. If your ex-employer wants to put their own noose around their own neck, let them.
"2. You don't want the job back, but you do want your ex-employer to ask you to come back, like a dog with its tail between its legs, that they are. If your ex-employer wants to put their own noose around their own neck, let them."
Come back to work and keep things casual then when you've accepted an offer from another employer, make sure the asshat that fired you knows how much you appreciate use of the company resources to find your new job. It also might be fun to let him know that the settlement money enabled you to take a nice long vacation with your family prior to starting your new position. Of course, all of that is just a lousy piece of advice if, by some cruel twist of fate, you might need to be hired there again. Stranger things have happened.
Option #3:
You liked your job.
(Yes some people do like working for their current employer and don't want to leave due to a cock up.)
More than likely...
There is a stigma in terms of getting fired from a job that will make it more difficult to get a new job. This is true if you're in a position of trust. (Like an accountant.)
So you want your old job until you can land your new one.
My guess is that he'll get his job back, but will have no chance of bonuses or raises. He essentially has a job until he finds a new one.
If you say you don't want your old job back then people who later assess any compensation for being fired may hold that against you - You don't want the job, you haven't got the job, what's the problem?
You have to make it look like they ruined your life to get maximum compensation, not that they did you a favour, or you were likely to leave anyway.
If they offer to take you back, even if you don't actually go back, it also means you can change the reason you are no longer in that job on your CV from "fired" to something else.
I always take the "this call may be recorded" warning the companies I call tend to play to be a mutual understanding between us. I'm recording them, they're recording me, so "this call may be recorded."
Is that a bad assumption to make? I don't usually like to start out conversations by saying things that suggest I'm going to be pain in the ass since usually just being friendly actually works better until it doesn't.
Note: Americans have to give that warning because it's illegal to record calls without permission and courts in the US will not accept evidence obtained illegally.
In the UK we have to give that warning because it's illegal to record calls without permission, but judges will accept pertinent evidence to a case, regardless of how it's actually been collected.
@AC - actually, the laws (and thus the notification requirements) vary from state to state inside the US, and it gets even more complicated when the two parties to the call are physically in different states!
In some cases, no notification is necessary; in some cases, just one party has to consent, and in others, both parties have to consent.
As for the story author's suggestion that one record one's calls, from what I understand in this case, it's the alleged calls between Comcast and PWC about the accountant's job that are at issue, and the lawsuit against Comcast is intended to gain access to recordings of such calls via the discovery process.
UK law on recording calls is a bit vague. You can record a call without telling the other party, if that recording is not going to be given to a third party. Not sure how it works if you later want to give that recording to a solicitor, or produce it in court.
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/consumer/advice/faqs/prvfaq3.htm
I had some issues with a company many years ago, after they refused to deal with the problem by letter and , despite constantly claiming to be recording my conversations "for training purposes", but being unable to retain ANY information from them, I tried to record them myself.
As soon as I repeated their own mantra back at them, they hung up on me.......
EVERY TIME.
"I had some issues with a company many years ago, after they refused to deal with the problem by letter and , despite constantly claiming to be recording my conversations "for training purposes", but being unable to retain ANY information from them, I tried to record them myself.
As soon as I repeated their own mantra back at them, they hung up on me.......
EVERY TIME."
When it comes to the point that you want to record conversations with them, before calling them again, send them one more letter - recorded delivery - and in that letter state that all future telephone conversations with them will be recorded.
That way, you don't need to say it to the person answering the phone - and they in turn won't react by hanging up.
(Been there, done that...)
One final letter, and the next comes from your solicitor. I give them three calls and three letters, to demonstrate (if required) that I did all a reasonable person could do, and then I sic the law dogs on them, and you'd be surprised how fast a resolution happens. Worth every penny to the solicitor, especially as my experience is that the original trouble gets sorted out and I get some goodies for mental stress etc etc.
A recording of their system telling you that they record calls followed by them hanging up when you say you're recording, will make for a pretty good indicator of bad faith if it goes near an ombudsman or judge.
Businesses only object to recordings if they have something to hide.
"A recording of their system telling you that they record calls followed by them hanging up when you say you're recording, will make for a pretty good indicator of bad faith if it goes near an ombudsman or judge."
I totally agree. Been there and done that with Vodafone.
UK law on recording calls is a bit vague. You can record a call without telling the other party, if that recording is not going to be given to a third party. Not sure how it works if you later want to give that recording to a solicitor, or produce it in court.
The law is mainly about casual dissemination of recordings rather than use within legal proceedings. Limited disclosure solely for the purpose of legal proceedings is okay.
As an earlier AC notes; the courts in the UK hold that evidence is evidence no matter how it is obtained. If evidence was obtained illegally that is a matter to be dealt with separately. We don't have the same 'get out jail of free' approach as America if something is done wrongly.
Whether the recording and/or transcripts are admissible evidence or not is the real issue. If both parties agree it accurately represents what was said then it is admissible. If one party disputes it, it may be withdrawn as evidence, or there will be pre-trial proceedings to asses its admissibility.
"Note: Americans have to give that warning because it's illegal to record calls without permission and courts in the US will not accept evidence obtained illegally."
That is only true in 2-party states where the call is intrastate. Interstate and 1-party state calls only need the knowledge of one of the call participants.
"In the UK we have to give that warning because it's illegal to record calls without permission"
Factually and substantially incorrect. It's perfectly legal to record a call for your own use.
It's a privacy breach to publish a call without the other party's knowledge, however that's a civil case and the person on the other end of the call has to go to court over it with very low odds of claiming damages, especially if the recording shows them acting in bad faith. It's perfectly legal to publish a call transcript - and in a court case the transcript is usually provided with the recording being entered into evidence if/when the other party disputes it.
In the UK, you do not need the other party's permission to record a call, but if you're publishing it, you do need to inform them it's being recorded for the reason given above.
To my knowledge, noone has EVER been taken to court in the UK for publishing a recording of a call they've been on.
In the UK, you only need the permission of one of the parties to the call, so you can give yourself permission to record your own calls and not tell anyone else. You can't record calls made by other people in your household or business without telling one of the parties to the call, so that is why they have those recorded messages.
I'm recording them, they're recording me, so "this call may be recorded."
Always tell them. It works both ways too.
If things go a bit bad, you can bet the other side will "select" the parts of the conversation that will be conductive to their case, and against yours.
Don't risk losing your leverage by using the rest of the conversation simply by presenting it to court. You can be sure they're going to use that against you if it wasn't done by the book.
The exact requirements are handled differently in different states and different countries. Make sure you brush up on your local laws, not just that I'm not a lawyer, it's the laws vary very widely.
If you don't tell them you're recording, the laws still vary widely. It goes from you simply can't use the recorded call in court, to, if the other side finds out you recorded it and they were not alerted to the fact in the "correct" way, you could fall foul of wiretapping laws. Again, check your local laws, your milage may vary.
As mentioned, New York is a 2 party consent state. However, New York will also accept a recording as evidence no matter how it is obtained if it is in the best interest of the court (generally, this also has to be in the best interest of the public). Many scam retailers have learned this the hard way in New York. Personally I can vouch for 1 incident in the realm of false advertising in the realm of photography.
In all states that I've read up on, there isn't 1 that will not accept a disclosure recording at the beginning of a customer service call as being implied consent. If you do not acknowledge the recording, consent is implied through the language (obviously).
The whole topic of recording calls is so sticky because it can wield extreme leverage. I believe this is the real reason many mobile operating systems (ie. Android) have started to make a push to stop recording natively and force the customers into using crude techniques. Corporations due stick together on concerns that give customers leverage, believe that.
I love this topic, it's 1 of the few I could type about for hours. I've written all types of telephony software, probably more than any other aspect of computing, just love it! Since I never was paid to do any of it, I put it aside when my motherboards stop coming with ISA expansions. I have 2 PCI telephony boards left, but they are not compatible with PCI Express, so I haven't played with this topic in years. So, thank you very much for reminding me of something I've been missing :-). Now if only I can find a full duplex* PCI Express board that can record higher than 8khz.
*You want full duplex so the snaky customer service reps can hear their own voice played back to them (it always makes them much more polite)!
"This call may be recorded" - it can be viewed that that is granting permission, in that you MAY do that.
And if they're recording the calls, they can't object to you doing it.
That's the long and short of it (had a fun time in Federal court last year listening to two lawyers argue on that).
Sadly, the problem with the current US justice system is that only applies to that particular instance of your particular case. That whole precedent thing is only pulled out if it agrees with the ruling the judge wants to render.
I concur that OUGHT to be sufficient. In fact, I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be illegal to record any call, only to misuse such a recording in an attempt to blackmail the other party.
Despite every IVR system warning me that a call is likely to be recorded I have only encountered actual recordings when the company believes I was at fault. Every single time that the company was in error they deny that a recording was ever made. When the company has been in violation of law and most deserving of a letter to the state's AG they have vehemently denied that any recording was ever made. This in spite of my policy of requesting calls be recorded the second I get an agent on the line.
Record all calls yourself and let the courts sort it out. At the very least, the court of public opinion and the company's PR spin. Notifying the agent that you are recording will likely result in them terminating the call under the guise of not having the authority to consent.
The odds are stacked against you at every turn, especially when you are interacting with regional or national monopolies. If you can't win legally, humiliate them, and see how fast they either cave or double down with a suddenly produced recording that was made after all.
A friend who ran a small shop told me she had been conned into a very expensive utility switch. A famous energy company insisted she had agreed to a deal that she would (being canny almost to the point of being a Yorkshire lass) never have agreed, but were absolutely insistent she had assented on the phone.
We asked for a recording and actually got one. Listening to it I had the almost incredulous realisation that it was fake. I was able to analyse it with Audacity and prove beyond any reasonable doubt (in no small part due to a very fortunately timed quiet but distinctive background noise - the shop door bell) that the 'yes, that's right' which was supposed to imply consent to the deal was in fact a copy/paste of the response she had given when asked to confirm her address. The forgery was, despite a few blunders apparent only under a reasonably technical analysis, pretty good. When the police listened to the call, they assured me they didn't think it sounded fake - until I showed them the waveforms; then they were stunned.
Famous energy company, of course, blamed a rogue agent, and settled out of court, so unfortunately I was not a party to, as I had hoped, an actual fraud trial against them. Still my fee & reward bought me a new bathroom, so it wasn't too disappointing. But the moral is that call recordings, even when they are produced, may not be all they appear: record your own side (preferably on old fashioned cassettes with a nice bit of mains hum, and the radio on in the background) if you want to be sure.
"Record all calls yourself and let the courts sort it out. At the very least, the court of public opinion and the company's PR spin. Notifying the agent that you are recording will likely result in them terminating the call under the guise of not having the authority to consent."
This can be a very bad move. In some juristictions, if you record a telephone conversation without the legally required consent, and the other side finds out, they will use it against you. You'll find out real quick how the wiretap laws work, and rest assured, you're not going to like them.
In the event they hang up, this could be good for you. You can (with your documented recordings!) prove that THEY refused to negotiate with you, not the other way around. It may become a separate case, but their business is entirely based around law and leverage. You CAN use it to your advantage, instead of theirs. Remember, they want you to get fed up and go away, because it becomes their advantage.
Record the call and let a court and your attorney sort out whether it's a good idea to try to use it. You could still make a transcript from the recording and submit that. I've never heard that a written transcript is illegal. The judge could always compare the recording with the transcript without entering the recording into evidence.
He'll have violated the policy which says you can't threaten clients. Moral of the story is, don't threaten to call the cavalry, just quietly do so. Also, most call centers record ALL calls. The US helpdesk I worked at recorded every call and saved them indefinitely.
Calls MAY be recorded for training purposes. - Means they are always being recorded, but not always used for training! Consent is assumed because you are still on the line. Lots of call centers are set up to give every call enough hold time to get the statement, regardless of call volume. Why risk the staffer forgetting?
He'll have violated the policy which says you can't threaten clients.
Perhaps, but based on what evidence? Comcast appear to be adamant that there is no recorded evidence of any threats made by anyone. So if that were the reason, PWC would be doing Comcast's bidding without any evidence of wrongdoing - which could be grounds for a wrongful dismissal lawsuit against PWC.
Personally, I think it's more likely that PWC have enormously byzantine ethics rules, and they found some minor infraction (like using the wrong kind of smiley face in an old email, or such) they could use to justify hanging the guy out to dry.
Yep. Maybe PwC needs an ethics inspection, 'cos if they're willing to swing the axe based on nothing but hear say from a customer, then what kind of a blind eye audit will hard money buy you?
I can suggest this as I am no longer looking to work for them in this lifetime.
Maybe keeping a check on the numbers in hell might be one of the cushier jobs and so I retract my previous besmirch in favour of a less hellish afterlife.
"Really? Why would you want to work at a place that treats you like that again? And that will put you on the top of the next inevitable round of layoffs?"
Problem is, there's no way he'll get his old job back. Although investment firms seem to act rather shady in some aspects, they are subject to SEC regulation (among others) and have some ethical rules employees are expected to follow. One of these is to not use your investment influence for personal vendettas, or threaten to do so. I do feel bad for him... what is it with these cable companies and random cockups? Of course if the recording turned up and he didn't say anything he'd be exhonerated and owed every penny; however, how likely is it that Comcast would pursue anything if he didn't say something first?
"how likely is it that Comcast would pursue anything if he didn't say something first?"
And how likely is it that PWC made the statement they made without hearing the tape wherein the beancounter said something to the effect of:
"Do you know who I am? I work at PWC, I'm important and I can reign down hell on Comcast if you don't kiss my ring and resolve this to *my* satisfaction."
No love for Comcast here, but this may a case of a jerk getting what he deserved...
PWC, as I remember, was involved in some shady or negligent accounting scandal a while back, but even so, an accounting firm should be exacting and not allow typos in their public statements. To wit,
Mr O’Rourke was employed in one of our infernal firm services offices. The firm terminated his employment after an infernal investigation concluded that Mr O’Rourke violated PwC’s ethical standards and practices, applicable to all of our people. The firm has explicit policies regarding employee conduct, we train our people in those policies, and we enforce them. Mr O’Rourke’s violation of these policies was the sole reason for his termination.
PwC was right to fire him. They (PwC, KPMG and Deloitte) do all the big audits and cannot afford even a sniff of impropriety. It sounds like this guy attempted to extort preferred service from Comcast by threatening them in some unspecified way. Whether that is what he intended or he was just frustrated, I'm going to presume that the conversation was sufficiently explicit and he was sufficiently low on the totem pole to force the ethics dept to act when the tape was provided to them.
Comcast just doesn't want another criminal conviction nor to have to pay out millions in damages - as they should.
IME, Comcast is a very unscrupulous company as many other folks have documented and they need to be held accountable for ALL violations of law and abuse of their customers.
Comcast convictions by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission
http://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/062-3166/comcast-corporation-pennsylvania-corporation-united-states
Comcast should hire this guy and make him a Senior Vice President of Customer Service. He has obviously been on the bad end of Comcast CS, and would know oh so well, what not to do.
At least at Comcast, it should be easy to make Customer Service better. Its so bad now, how do you go any lower?
What bugs me is that I hear nobody calling for the Comcast CEO to step down, even though in the end, he is the one responsible for the crappy CS. And he seems to be quite proud of his crappy CS too. This is probably due to the fact that most cable companies operate on local government required monopolies, and as such, they are beholden only to their shareholders. Since the customers must take the cable service that is available in their area, anyone living in a Comcast area, must get it from Comcast.
I believe that instead of letting Comcast and Time Warner merge, they should both be broken into smaller companies, and forced to compete with each other all over the country. In fact, all cable companies should have to compete with at least 1 other company in any town over 30,000 people in it, and at least 2 companies in any city over 75,000. These are minimums. Basically, any cable company that wants to offer their services to a town or city, should be able to do so. Some might well fail, but that is how things go in business. Some will succeed, and become wealthy. Some will not. But only by doing this will cable CS get better, prices stop going up, and programming be expanded to keep up with the competition.
Total subversion of the democratic process. What the government can't do to you, corporations can and it's all about money. And yet we have the nerve to go around the world and preach to people about the democracy they need and which we do not have. I don't know where this is all headed, but it cannot be good.