ITV Doesn't Own STV!
" ITV's Scottish subsidiary"
ITV doesn't own STV, ITV has nothing to do with them. If the author checked before publishing this he'd know STV pay ITV for content
In what could be taken as an ominous sign for the future, Brits below the Scottish border were unable to live stream the debate on Scotland’s independence last night – because the STV Player crashed under the weight of viewers trying to watch the event. The debate between pro-independence First Minister Alex Salmond and Labour …
One other point; while STV own the Central and Northern Scotland franchises that cover the majority of the Scottish population, the Scottish/English border franchise is owned by ITV plc.
Apparently, however, ITV Border showed the debate- I can imagine that a lot of people living there would have been legitimately pissed off if they hadn't.
Countries have the right to self determination. The same holds true for Northern Ireland, where it's long been established that any decision on whether to remain in the UK or to unify with Ireland will be the choice of the people there.
Otherwise, especially given the much larger population of England compared to all those areas that may wish to leave, what do you imagine should happen if Scotland or Northern Ireland were to vote to leave the UK, but the English voted to keep them within it?
Should we, effectively, hold them prisoner? While some might think that's exactly what should be done, I can't see it as anything other than a cause of much upset in the long run.
Nige, you are assuming the English would vote to keep the union. Where's the evidence of that? What I'm saying is let's all vote on this, to test that assumption. Personally, I'm not at all sure your assumption is correct. We've not been given the chance to find out, so we'll probably never know.
@Jedit. Sources please.
Where polls were conducted across the UK the data I've found (admittedly now a little old) says the opposite:
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Scottish-Referendum-Poll-Methodology-Crosstabulations.pdf
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9015374/Britain-divided-over-Scottish-independence.html
@Hadvar I'm not assuming they would, just wondering what people think would actually happen if that were to be the result - and I don't think it's particularly an unlikely one.
Personally, I think it's long past time we had a proper federal constitution for the UK, where each constituent part has the same devolved powers, and there's a clear statement of what rights people have across the federation (eg with regard to things like tuition, medical services) to fix some of the anomalies caused by the current devolution settlements.
But, of course, adventurous reform is fairly unlikely in the UK, where "it's worked well for hundreds of years" is all too often deemed a perfectly good argument for stasis.
"what do you imagine should happen if Scotland or Northern Ireland were to vote to leave the UK, but the English voted to keep them within it?"
That's not the issue. Of course the English shouldn't be able to vote to keep the Scotts in. However if the Scott's are voting about leaving and demanding (ha ha ha) a currency union, the English should be able, at the same time, to vote about separating from Scotland and/or avoiding a currency union (which would mean the B of E continuing to underwrite Scottish banks). Many Scott's don't realise that more English want them to leave than want them to stay. Polling firm Survation polled North and South of the border discovered that little factoid.
Here's a suggestion. Since which country should continue with or "inherit" EU membership seems arbitrary, why not have Scotland leave the union, stay in the EU and the remaining UK exit the EU? Seems to me if we assume a "Yes" vote North of the Border (big assumption I know) and on the basis of the polls South of the border, the majority will be happy.
The reason the referendum is happening is because a majority of voters in Scotland voted for a party who had an independence referendum as one of their major manifesto points. As far as I'm aware, that hasn't happened in England.
So perhaps you should either find a party willing to pledge such a referendum (shouldn't be *that* difficult given "more English want them to leave than want them to stay," should it?) and elect them or start one yourself
Or you could just carry on whining.
AbelSoul. Of course we don't want a referendum about Scotland. You can do what you like. Just don't come back in the door two hours after leaving saying, "oh, sorry but, we are just expecting our banks to be underwritten by a currency union, sign here will you" and then two hours later again "oh, sorry, sorry to interrupt again, ha, it just seems we seem to have forgotten the additional 4% of Scotts employed by the UK national government above the average public sector employment rate, just sign here to guarantee their jobs will you?" then two hours later again saying, "sorry, sorry, we really are leaving, but it seems, ha, this is really quite embarrassing, it seems we are no longer in the EU and, you see, that means we need special treatment re: immigration. We've been left a bit short of jobs and were just wondering if we could have freedom of movement to take some of yours. Oh, and that whole charging for education at Scottish colleges thing, when anyone else in the EU got free places and we could go for free to yours? Clerical error. Sorry won't happen again. We're good aren't we? Good yes? Great, see you for the barbie on Saturday, got to be at your place, it's raining here."
No inconsistency.
If you Scotts want a divorce and leave the house and set up their own bank account. We agree a split in the accounts and there's no problem.
If you want a divorce and demand we should remain joined at the hip with a joint bank account and financial guarantees, but gradually wake up to not having the leverage, and leave muttering obscenities to yourself, then you are being a bit annoying, but also there is no problem.
If you want a divorce, and insist on the account transferred into joint names, with financial guarantees before leaving and having said you are going, refuse to leave and have hissy fits, then yes there is a problem. I want a clean divorce. Just leave already, you are affecting voters UK wide.
So actually I don't want a referendum in the UK, but reserve the right to have one should the Scottish Nationalists press demands of the remaining UK instead of making a clean break of it. Of course, in practice we won't have one, but in principle it is fair if such demands are being made.
>"oh, sorry but, we are just expecting our banks to be underwritten by a currency union, sign here will you"
Currency union != having the BoE as lender of last resort, not to mention that those decisions are made by government anyway and I'm sure Westminster would relish saying "No". [Sidebar: I also think currency union's a dumb idea, for the above and other reasons.]
>"oh, sorry, sorry to interrupt again, ha, it just seems we seem to have forgotten the additional 4% of Scotts employed by the UK national government above the average public sector employment rate, just sign here to guarantee their jobs will you?"
SELECT * FROM civil_servants WHERE firstName = 'Scott'; [sorry, couldn't resist]
Two things: firstly, yes the Scottish public sector is pretty disproportionate, but you make out like it's orders of magnitude larger than that of the UK as a whole, which it really ain't. Secondly, quite a lot of those jobs are doing data-processing for non-devolved Westminster ministries/depts (HMRC is a massive one). And if you want to "repatriate" all those jobs, then rUK's public sector will swell accordingly. The cool thing is that, whether you do that or "contract out" the work to the existing staff, since all those Scottish pork-guzzlers will have dual citizenship, they're free to take the jobs whichever side of the border they're based on :)
>"sorry, sorry, we really are leaving, but it seems, ha, this is really quite embarrassing, it seems we are no longer in the EU and, you see, that means we need special treatment re: immigration. We've been left a bit short of jobs and were just wondering if we could have freedom of movement to take some of yours.
Yeeeeeah, about that? You may have missed this, but we're actually quite keen on immigration, because we actually need more working-age folk to care for our wrinklies and keep the lights on. (Actually you do too, but the press seem not to talk about this much...)
>Oh, and that whole charging for education at Scottish colleges thing, when anyone else in the EU got free places and we could go for free to yours? Clerical error. Sorry won't happen again.
It wasn't an error ;) It was a response to progressively socially divisive fees regimes south of the border, hand-in-hand with a bit of bribery to encourage our own bright young things not to fuck off to London for such things. Remember, government funding (or not) of higher education is about the student, not the institution looking to fatten its wallet.
@SuccessCase; "Of course the English shouldn't be able to vote to keep the Scotts in"
Why do you have this obsession with people named "Scott"? You've mentioned them in every post you made in this thread!
"However if the Scott's"
It's Scott's, not yours. Leave him alone!
By the way, do you have any opinions on the constitutional position of Whales? Personally, I think they should all sod off back to the sea and eat krill.
@SuccessCase
Who is this guy called Scott? What is your obsession about Scott's possessions?
And you are mis-representing the results of a a dodgy poll from two years ago, made before the question being asked was even decided. It did not conclude that "more English want them to leave than want them to stay". It concluded, for whatever value you wish to place on it, that more English *than Scots* wanted Scottish independence.
"shouldn't we all be getting a vote then?"
Nope, or scotland would be kicked out of the union...
I myself think it would be stupid for them to leave.
but I can see some benefits to the rest of the UK if they leave...
Shipbuilding would move back to England(most likely) or Wales since the UK would have to cancel any future building of warships in Scotland,
Our nuclear deterrent would move to England or Wales.
more jobs would be created in the remainder of the Union because of those two things.
The downside is conservatives would have too much power, and power without balance from opposition is risky.
>Shipbuilding would move back to England(most likely) or Wales since the UK would have to cancel any future building of warships in Scotland,
Don't forget Belfast...
>Our nuclear deterrent would move to England or Wales.
My money's on Wales - the farther away from Westminster the better, as per ibid.
>more jobs would be created in the remainder of the Union because of those two things.
And a tidal wave of Scottish skilled labour would probably be making use of their promised dual citizenship to up-sticks and apply for them. Remember now: if they've got passports you can't call them immigrants!
>The downside is conservatives would have too much power, and power without balance from opposition is risky.
I shouldn't worry, if your predictions about heavy industry come true then it'll be a massive shot in the arm for rUK Labour :)
Re: Put it on Youtube
It was available on STV Player by midnight. And it will be on BBC Parliament (and Iplayer), without adverts, at 7o'clock this evening.
I thought it was typical boring politicking -- continual repetitive asking the same question that was unanswerable; either because it was designed to be unanswerable or because the answer would be self-incriminating.
"Salmond insisted that Scotland would be better off ruling itself than being subject to the whims of politicians in Westminster whom Scots themselves hadn’t voted for."
That works both ways. A number of laws were passed during the Blair/Brown years that affected only English citizens but were passed because of the support of Scottish Labour MPs whose constituents were not affected.
For a more accurate sentence, try this:
"Salmond insisted that Scottish thieving bastards would be better off ruling Scotland than being subject to the whims of thieving bastards in Westminster whom Scots themselves hadn’t voted for."
If the answer is politicians (the current mob of self-serving, morally dubious sons and daughters of unwed mothers), then maybe people aren't asking the right question...
You mean like how English MPs voted on Scottish only issue for the 300 years up to devolution. Scotland never voted for Thatcher but she still gave the Scots the poll tax a year before England even though the Act of Union forbad the introduction of taxes in Scotland that was not matched by equal measure south of the border.
Scotland didn't vote for Thatcher... So what? Many counties could sat that too. Somebody living in, for example, Glasgow has exactly the same say as someone living in Truro.
I can't see that Scotland is any more disadvantaged than Liverpool. The houses of Parliament may be located in London but the MPs come from all round the UK. It may be true that for one reason or another, the government is a bit London centric but every area outside of London has the same complaint.
I don't follow this "we didn't vote for the government we got" argument. It is democracy, you voted, but more people voted for the parties you didn't vote for, and they won, or in this case got into coalition. However small the electorate is, there will always be some who "didn't vote for the government we got".
Drawing a boundary around an area that happens to contain people who are of a politically different persuasion than the current lot in power and demanding independence is weak because not everyone inside that boundary agrees, although a majority may do. So if independence happens, many people didn't vote for that either, so perhaps they should seek independence from an independent Scotland? Where does that lead?
What if post-independence, the SNP were in power but Aberdeen "didn't vote SNP?" Should they take the oil and become independent from Scotland? What if post the independence of Aberdeen, part of Aberdeen didn't vote for whoever was in power, should they seperate further? All you end up with is isolationism.
IMHO we need to all stick together and don't fall for divide and rule. There is safety in numbers and we should focus on changing the current system and government to be more representative. If all the people who can't be arsed voting got off their backsides and did so, we could get a fair and representative government. We should be looking there.
"Salmond insisted that Scotland would be better off ruling itself than being subject to the whims of politicians in Westminster whom Scots themselves hadn’t voted for."
Typical Salmond. That statement isn't even true. Scotts did vote for SOME of the MPs in Westminster.
Are you by any chance related to SuccessCase? Only I notice you share a fascination with the doings of people called Scott...
Given that the correct spelling is in the passage you quoted, you must not think much of the Reg's copy-editors (I don't either, but that's besides the point).
it was on STV to reduce the audience, when given the choice of a global blue chip broadcaster in the form of the BBC or a micky mouse 2 bit opperation like STV what did westminster choose, Remeber folks they don't want us to leave, the secret service has a remit to protect the UK, Dirty tricks are comming in thick and fast these days. But those south of the border will have no knowledge of this as this is part of the device and conqure that's being used agianst the citizents of the UK by westminster for years, how else do you explain the fact that in a democracy most of the ruling elite all went to the same skool !
Conspiracy theory fails under mild scrutiny
The debate was broadcast on STV – a free to air service that is available to that part of the country where those of the electorate with a vote actually live.
It was not available (reliably in real time at least) outside of this area
So friggin what.
Those living in rUK don't have a vote – and while they may have an interest in the issue and may feel that they want to see wee Eck or bushy eyebrows, it doesn't change the fact that no one in rUK is materially disadvantaged by having missed the live debate.
It was a technology failure – they happen. Life goes on.
I live in England and therefore don't have a vote. However I'm interested in the debate because I moved here from Scotland about 15 years ago, I have family still living there, and I have bank accounts and a pension fund in Scotland and would like to know what currency they would be denominated in post-independence. I did manage to watch the debate courtesy of Freesat, and now know that nobody knows the answer to my question.
Right... If in doubt suspect a conspiracy. Isn't it always the case that for these new-fangled-debate things each of the broadcasters gets a bite of the cherry? Last night was ITV (STV as the franchise owner), in a couple of weeks BBC will have a go.
Given that the current bunch of numpties can't do anything very well; a conspiracy wouldn't be my first choice.
If you're a so-called cybernat, then do kindly go away.
Please.
I'm a definite "Yes" voter on the day, but this is close to a tinfoiler rant.
Most of the voters will have been able to see it, whether those in the rest of the UK, or abroad, did, it won't influence the result much.
I'm not saying the UK Government isn't trying to keep Scotland, and are probably using dodgy tactics to do so, but this isn't a useful example.
My theory is that the Yes campaign can't win by anything they say.
But Westminster or the "Staying together camp" could lose.
Perhaps the Tories will in the last week issue some statement that totally enrages the Scottish and they all vote yes.
Then Tories have permanent majority. If you want a conspiracy, I think my idea is better.
Tragically, I agree with most of your assessment. However, you should note that there are those of us who, while downright embarrassed by the Yes campaign's stewardship, and even doubtful about the economic arguments, will still vote Yes because we believe that the abiding nature of our people promises a better society in the long run. Easy to scoff at, that, but I believe it.
And as for the conspiracy theory, while I like it better than the redoubtable Mr Boag's, if that's their plan it's a sucker bet. Give the tories a hegemony and watch them screw it up and have protesters' or strikers' blood on their hands in no time.
Seems a bit silly really crowded round a computer, when I just added the STV HD frequency manually to my English Sky+HD box (would also have worked on Freesat as well I would guess) and was able to watch it live on the big screen (or relatively big compared to a laptop!)
It took around 30 secs to add the channel after a quick Google. The BBC did mention this on Radio4 but obviously it was far too techy for them to just give out the frequency!
Absolutely.
Also already on any £25 to £40 generic Sat box (which runs off spare connection on the Sky Dish) like from B&Q, Aldi, Lidl.
Or stick any random Scottish post code into a Freesat box. My Freesat HD, Sky box and generic boxes, PC sat cards all work fine with STV.
IPTV of the Web variety rather than ISP supplied subscription cable clone is rarely ever scalable to cope with larger than usual demand.
If a streaming service keeps working when it's subject to a sudden huge increase in demand, that's news. I would have been very surprised if the feed had kept working and no doubt so would the STV IT people. I'm not an expert in these matters, just going on experience.
Not surprised they wouldn't let the BBC stream it either. The relation between the BBC and Scotland is in itself a relevant matter in the debate.
... as it's not like they didn't know that it was coming. This kind of stuff seems to happen quite a lot. Is there a shortage in techies who know how to build a properly extensible infrastructure, or have Netflix and LoveFilm employed them all?
Still, managed to find a work around with some quick googling. Thank you TVCatchUp
As someone from a military family background, with family all over these isles, I was born and raised British.
I'm not English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. I'm a Brit.
My family (who for at least the last 3 generations have served and fought for their country) didn't do that for Scotland or for England, they did it for The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Even my passport says that's where I'm from.
I'm almighty pissed off that I don't get a chance to vote on the future of my country and whether or not some nationalistic little wanker can carve off a part of it for him and his mates because they have a different accent to the other parts.
The fact that I can't even watch the debates and that the similarly small-minded little Englanders don't consider it important (it wasn't even mentioned in the first 10 minutes of the BBC 10 O'Clock News) is just the final kick in the teeth.
I truly hope that my country still exists by the end of September.
>As someone from a military family background, with family all over these isles, I was born and raised British.
>I'm not English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. I'm a Brit.
Historically anyone who was English always thought of themselves as British. However it doesn't always work the other way around taken from a Scottish/Irish/Welsh perspective..... You might be the exception...
As someone from a military background, you might be relieved not to have to go around murdering brown people so often then.
I'm from a military background too, and that pathetic "served and fought for the country" is exactly the type of nationalist wankerism an independent Scotland might finally be largely shot of.
Spouting this bollocks on the centenary of the fucking gentry butchering an entire generation too, eh.
I am thoroughly bored with these shenanigans. Personally I am very much for the UK but playing the victim about how bad those nasty English are is just getting ridiculous. I suspect that the only reason the SNP will win is by setting up big screens showing back to back braveheart, I mean we wouldn't want actual history to get in the way of a good story right?
If the separatists do manage to convince the rest then it should be an all split and be done with it.
Interesting deal. We'll happily take Texas and California off your hands. Erm, do we have to have the Texans and Californians too? Although if you're willing to take Ireland as well...
Do we collect, you deliver, or just wait for the San Andreas fault to do it for us?
Finally, I've forgotten, which one of us owns Canada again?
Please support the call for a referendum on independence for the people of Norway and Shetland
These brave pictish people fought off attacks by the irish-gaels in the 8th century, were finally subdued by the Norse in the 10th, and then were pawned off by the Norwegian crown, falling into the hands of the Scottish crown in the 15th century.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups
"Calling on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to hold three separate referenda in Shetland, Orkney, and the Western Isles on Thursday 25 September 2014, one week after the Scottish independence referendum, asking the people of each island group whether they would prefer their island group to:
· to become an independent country, or
· to stay in Scotland
and, in the event of a yes vote in the referendum on Scottish independence, to have the following additional option:
· to leave Scotland and stay in the remainder of the UK"
Help free these islands from the tyranny of overseas rule. The best people to run these islands are the islanders!
(Etc.)
Salmond saying he wants independence, but still wants to use the pound sterling and basically leave their economy to the whim of the bank of England is nothing but plastic independence.. Why do I get the feeling that if this goes ahead we will have Salmond continuing to spend and benefit from the rest of the UK while claiming to be fully independent?
If Scotland want independence and vote for it then that is fair enough and I'd wish them well, but come up with your own currency, use monopoly money put Alex Salmonds mug on the bank notes as long as the rest of the UK don't roll over and allow a currency union. The rest of the UK should be allowed a referendum on whether we want a currency union and I imagine the vast majority will vote no (I think one recent poll had it at 68% against a currency union)
As for Salmonds master plan to sort the ageing dwindling population out by 'allowing up to 500,000 immigrants' I hope we either get a border patrol system in place quick or Megabus is going to make a killing taking people fresh off the plane at Prestwick and driving them straight to London once Alex has given them citizenship at passport control......
And how will it work if an independent Scotland has to go for accession to the EU then surely they have to apply to the EEA as well? In that case anyone from Scotland after that point of independence and before they get accepted in to the EU wishing to work in the rUK would need a visa wouldn't they?
Look the devil will be in the detail and that will be decided by a non-elected permanent under-secretary. In which case anyone from non-Scotland will find that they will have to pay more to get rid of the Scots. That's how it seems to work with most minorities.
For all those who were commenting about Canada ,interestingly enough, if you are from the UK and are applying for your Canadian passport, then Canada will not accept UK as country of birth. If you were born in England then you must put down England, UK or British is not recognised.
OK, fine, have your independence. But you have to guarantee that we never have to see or hear Alex Salmond again. And while you're at it you can take George Galloway back.
In terms of territory, you should know that we have designated the following to be geographical parts of Scotland
- Canvey Island
- the A14 between Cambridge and Huntingdon
- all sets of bagpipes
- anything connected to J K Rowling
When currency union occurred, the Scottish economy was in such a state that the exchange rate was 7 Scotish Pounds to 1 English Pound.
Out of academic interest, I wonder if an indenpendent Scotland with it's own currency would end upback at that level*
* until forced to accept Euro as part of the EU membership rules for applicants.
...of what will happen when those turkeys vote for Christmas. Come ~2017 the long suffering English will be expected to help the Scots (again), pay their bills (again) and then educate them in the ways of the world (again).
Of the *MASSIVE* subsidy from England stops...they are fecked.