Major problems beset UK ISP filth filters: But it's OK, nobody uses them

Re: BT has fewest miscategorisation requests, because almost impossible to report

Some minor credit for BT for that.

I would like to see more coverage of this topic for mobile operators, three of whom incorrectly block my site and none of whom will tell me how to get it correctly classified or even acknowledge my requests to do so.

They just tell me to allow adult content on my phone which is completely missing the point.

Re: BT has fewest miscategorisation requests, because almost impossible to report

If your website is incorrectly blocked, sue for libel.

Re: TalkTalk blocked my site

According to http://www.blocked.org.uk TalkTalk blocked my wordpress site. (Occasional mild profanity?)

Can every wordpress user check their site: lets build a case against them.

Re: TalkTalk blocked my site

I run and/or administer a large number of Web sites, on subjects ranging from computer troubleshooting to emerging biotechnology to sex.

Ironically, my personal site, which has no content that might be deemed even remotely scandalous (and is not a WordPress site), is blocked on Sky...but my sex site, which talks about kink in very explicit terms, is not blocked by any of the major UK ISPs.

Let's hear it for Net censors, getting things wrong since...well, since the dawn of time, I think.

Re: Too broad

"Killing it all at the ISP (or even at the in home router) kills it for adults as well..."

whereas trying to kill it at any interior point in your home network means it doesn't cover all the devices that the kids have access to. Particularly if you are relying on some PC software, you are missing your telly, your tablets, your gaming consoles, your phones, and quite possibly other gizmos that an old fart like me isn't aware of yet.

Re: Too broad

If only this technology was A) Opt-in and B) Easily circumvented with a VPN.

Oh wait, for most providers it IS opt-in. And until ISPs start blocking all VPNs (Never, too many (big) companies rely on their home users being able to use VPNs) it's easily circumvented if you enable the filter for your connection because you have, for example, young kids around the house.

And then you realise that if YOU can get around the filter with a VPN, so can they. So what was the point of blocking content at the ISP level again?

Re: Getting facts right puts things in proportion

How do you report that something's blocked incorrectly if you can't see what it is that's been blocked?

So most requests come from webmasters who A) know that Sky is blocking them and B) can find Sky's "WTF? Unblock me!" scheme.

Given that Sky subscribers can't get to the website, they can't find out how to contact the webmaster and thus the webmaster will only know if an existing visitor suddenly cannot access and is able to find how to contact the webmaster, or if the webmaster herself goes to www.blocked.org.uk or similar to check if they have been unexpectedly blocked.

And they have to keep checking because the ISPs don't notify webmasters.

Re: Getting facts right puts things in proportion

The only reason TalkTalk has such uptake is they go to great lengths to make you feel like a child abusing pervert if you choose to opt out of this safety feature.

Re: Wrong Category

TalkTalk bombarded their customers for years with literature about their "HomeSafe" options - by mail, email and IIRC I even had a phonecall or two offering it to me! I also think it has been a preselected option for signups for years as well. I have had to actively refuse it each and every time rather than confirming that I wanted it.

Re: Wrong Category

Given TalkTalk's old reputation for coming top of the customer complaints league for several years in a row, I would speculate that their customer base has a built-in bias towards the less tech literate members of the population who wouldn't think to do online research before choosing a provider.

From there it's not that big a leap to assume they're going with the filters because the signup page says it 'protects them online' or whatever convincing bollocks the opt-in page shows.

Re: Wrong Category

"What kind of people sign up for Talk Talk service?"

Idiots

Although you won't be able to visit their site if your own ISP blocks 'virgin' as a naughty word

Re: BT

May depend how recently you changed your BT deal. I have changed mine slightly this summer and last, and was poked with the Parental Controls stick both times.

Re: BT

Lucky you, I get to choose whenever I put the router password into a new device.

Re: BT

Neither have I as a Sky customer (who signed up in the last 3 months). But then I've never used their DNS servers because I have my own caching resolver set up locally.

Re: BT

We got Fibre at the gaff last month, and every bloody device I hooked in was forbidden from seeing webpages until I had chosen one of the "I am feeble minded and would like to be inconvenienced by not seeing half the internet / I am a grown man and I quite like pornography thank you very much" options. To be fair I think you can turn that behaviour off from the router manager.

Re: BT

My HomeHub5 used to prompt me everytime I connected a new device until I replaced it with a Cisco one. The MyBT site prompted me for the first time a few days ago, ironically because I was getting my account details to get a MAC code to leave them.

"Why filter hacking?"

You didn't think this "government initiative" was for the benefit of customers, did you?

>>""hacking" seems to be in the list of categories that are filtered. What the fuck? How is information about hardware and software considered so harmful that it cannot touch the minds of our precious little children?"

One of the signs of an authoritarian society is that things move from a state of permitted unless forbidden, to forbidden unless permitted. It's a direct consequence of a society becoming about fear and control, rather than curiosity and freedom.

In fifteen years, we'll be lucky if most of them understand that a file is a series of bytes.

"Why filter hacking?"

America.

Lets say you have a child with a disorder (not one that suddenly springs forth post arrest, but an actual condition), Aspergers, for example.

It's possible, given the number of high profile cases (McKinnon et al), that they may become interested in hacking, and may test servers hosted in or owned by companies based in America. If you fail to avoid extradition, your child may then get locked up for eons.

That, sadly, is why you *might* want to filter hacking.

"Why filter hacking?"

To prevent you looking up how to circumvent their controls

""hacking" seems to be in the list of categories that are filtered. What the fuck? How is information about hardware and software considered so harmful that it cannot touch the minds of our precious little children?

Where will the next generation of hackers come from? In 15 years, will we find that 99% of CS graduates only know how to prod .NET or Java?"

- I suspect that the next generation of hackers will come from the abusive households* that partially and/or arbitrarily blocks access to the internet? There is no greater motivator than being told you can't do something :) I imagine any teenager who was effectively told that there are pictures of naked people on the internet, but that they will only be able to look at them if they learn a fair bit about VPN, DNS and ISP filters would very soon be at the local library with their nose in a book reading about networks :)

*If you decide and filter what information/material members of your household are allowed or not allowed to see, read or learn then how can that not be an abusive household? Do you cut out articles from the newspaper you don't want them to see as well? Sit in on any meeting they have with their friends in case any of them has any forbidden knowledge? On a more pragmatic level; An 8 year old will likely not go looking for porn as they have no interest in it, whereas a 14 year old won't be scarred for life at the sight of boobies** :) Or the sight of a swear word on a page for that matter :S

**and if they go looking for tubgirl or lemonparty they will learn very quickly that there are a lot of very different people in this world..

Don't worry about hacking skills

Most of the hackers I know where raised with little or no 'tarwebs access. You learn hacking hands-on, not through Carolyn Meinel's website. You still need some tech manuals but I doubt they'll be covered by the ban.

When the parents got home and raised the possibility of filtering I bet their kids gave them a good talking to hence the lack of follow through. This optional phase is temporary anyway in order to work out the bugs and soften up the electorate. Pretty soon we will begin to hear of 'demands' to make filtering mandatory, perhaps underscored by an expert or some otherwise avoidable crime but all the 'authorities' were on leave that day. Then some brave MP will stand up for the bankers and the war mongers (== ?) and make Britain great again. 2 minutes later the Australian public service will try and get it implemented here.

"but as long as it's all or nothing who'd sign up for it?"

It's not - or it's not with BT. You get to tick "yes" or "no" to each of the listed categories.

Re: Opt Out more likely

Thanks for the heads-up. I logged in to my vm account on a hunch after reading your post, to find they had kindly activated this rubbish for me too, without even having the manners to tell me. I went to settings and got greeted by:

"Because its your first time here, we have activated all settings for you, to protect..."

There was a radio button control to turn it off but no save settings button. When clicked on to change it to "Turn Off", I got greeted by a nice red dialog warning of death, doom and destruction, obviously designed to frighten those whom are less technologically literate.

It had better stay turned off. I'll be checking it periodically. While I don't do porn, I want it off because it should be my choice, not theirs.

Re: You can't legislate against human behavior. (Exactly)

We had this thing called Prohibition here that worked so well it started international smuggling rings. Talk about your unexpected consequences.

Funny thing, the harder you make it to get something, the more that humans want it.

Re: You can't legislate against human behavior.

No, no, you can legislate against human behaviour. Politicians do it all the time. It's just that, after a lot of police effort, locking people up and general aggravation, much of it turns out to have been a mistake. But in the meantime a lot of public servants have had well remunerated careers.

Re: sensible laws

Already done. The UK has been systematically broadening the definition of child pornography for years, each time citing the need to 'close a loophole.' Ever since the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 prohibited posession of 'pseudo-photographs' - images that looked like child pornography, but were artificial in their production. Photoshop manipulation. Then in the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 this was further extended to include artistic depictions and also redefined child for this purpose to not someone under-18, but someone who *looks* under eighteen - closing the 'loophole' of using young adult actors and dressing them up to play the part of a younger character. It also stated that the children don't even have to be human, they just have to have the characteristics of a human child - meaning someone in government is specifically thinking of either some of those hentai characters or furry porn.

Basically, I could draw a stick-figure couple having sex, declare one character to be underage, and go to jail for production of child pornography.

Re: Serious question: What's the difference between nudity and pornography?

The signature. If it's drawn/painted/protographed by a famous artist, it's tasteful nudity and classic art. If it's by someone you've not heard of, then it's porn. Many of the most respected artists in history liked to draw nude, erotically-posed, attractive (by their standards) women.

If Botticelli painted it, it's The Birth of Venus and gets hung up in a gallery. If you were to paint the same imaged, it'd be Hot Chick Gets Her Tits Out and be considered obscene.

Might be a lot for TalkTalk?