back to article Hey! Where! are! the! white! women! at!? It's! Yahoo!

Yahoo! is the latest web giant to reveal figures on the diversity of its workforce. The Purple Palace published the report online on Tuesday, breaking down its employees along both gender and ethnicity lines in its tech, non-tech and leadership divisions. Much like Google, Yahoo! has fielded a workforce which is, by and large …

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  1. MondoMan
    Flame

    Is the US second only to apartheid South Africa in its obsession with race?

    The dirty little secret of simplistic "race"-based diversity goals in tech -- they're an acceptable way to discriminate against Asians. It's pretty obvious such discrimination is widespread in admissions at many universities, limited only somewhat by laws such as California's Proposition 209. It's sad to see that the 20th century's "Jewish quotas" have given rise to 21st century "Asian quotas".

    1. Propforward

      Re: Is the US second only to apartheid South Africa in its obsession with race?

      For the sake of context, I pulled the Diversity figures from MIT's website for admissions.

      I know that this is not the only university that Tech firms recruit from but it seemed a reasonable first proxy to compare to the Google figures.

      I wouldn't say that overrepresentation of Asians screams out as the issue here. I appreciate that I am only looking at one school here but the suggestion that there are no suitable say Hispanic candidates seems laughable. I understand that one could make a point about the 12% of Black Americans in US society being under-representated in both the MIT figures and Tech firms.

      Fall 2010 Fall 2011 Fall 2012 Fall 2013

      Nonresident alien 9.6% 10.4% 10.4% 9.9%

      Hispanic or Latino 13.4% 14.9% 15.3% 16.3%

      American Indian 0.9% 0.6% 0.3% 0.2%

      Asian 23.9% 24.0% 24.0% 24.0%

      Black 7.7% 6.8% 6.2% 5.3%

      Native Hawaiian 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%

      White 36.9% 36.0% 36.6% 36.9%

      Two or more races 2.3% 3.3% 4.2% 5.1%

      Ethnicity Unknown 5.2% 4.0% 3.0% 2.2%

      1. Craigness

        Re: Is the US second only to apartheid South Africa in its obsession with race?

        The US is 73% white and MIT intake is 37% white so why do you focus on "underrepresentation" of black americans? Both Google and Yahoo are not employing enough white people in the US to be properly representative, and they are both described as "pasty" (El Reg) or in other anti-white racist terms because of their predominantly white workforce.

        People need to get race out of the equation and not worry about who gets what jobs.

        1. Propforward

          Re: Is the US second only to apartheid South Africa in its obsession with race?

          I'm not commenting on MIT's figures per se. It is a prestigious US school with a Tech focus which might be expected to provide employees to the companies featured in the article.

          If there are large numbers of well qualified Asian Tech graduates from prestigious schools then you might expect to see high proportions of well qualified Asian Tech employees at such firms.

          If (and it is a big if) nationally tech graduates are qualifying at the numbers indicated by the MIT numbers then El Reg's coverage seems rather accurate both in terms of gender and race.

      2. Tom 13
        FAIL

        Re: wouldn't say that overrepresentation of Asians screams out

        Then you are quite oblivious. As a percentage of the US population, they are 4.8% which puts their over representation in that sample at about 5x. I can't tell from your post whether those numbers are applications or actual students.

  2. rickvidallon

    During my years as a creative director in the national cable broadcast industry there were 5 things I paid the least amount of attention to that always served me well.

    1- Resume

    2- Gender

    3- Race

    4- Resume

    5- Experience

    My primary hiring criteria was: positive, infectious attitude and raw talent. If they had that all the rest just fell into place.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      5 things I paid the least amount of attention to

      And, with resume in there twice, presumably ignoring understanding of set theory and number theory was no handicap either.

      Cable broadcast industry perhaps. I've seen the havoc that can be wreaked in a technical role by someone with "positive infectious attitude" and a bad CV and experience. How do you measure "raw talent"? Possibly easy enough when recruiting a violinist or a street mime, but how does that work for, say, a brain surgeon or a sysadmin?

      1. Tom 38

        Re: 5 things I paid the least amount of attention to

        "Raw talent" in interviews means that the interviewee has enabled BS mode on the interviewer and the interviewer was impressed/did not detect BS mode.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: 5 things I paid the least amount of attention to

        >but how does that work for, say, a brain surgeon or a sysadmin?

        Same way - by the amount of blood on the walls at the end of the first week.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      The first thing most people I know do when looking through tech. CVs is to filter out all the foreign sounding names and file them in the bin.

  3. Eradicate all BB entrants

    Sigh, one subject that drives me ...

    .... apoplectic is gender/race quotas. It shouldn't matter if you are male, female, white, black or a rabbit with a pogo stick shoved up it's ass. The person who is the best for the position should be employed. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

    At the same time you see complaints, for example, about the difference in salary between men and women, and that it needs to be adjusted, but they never refer to the porn industry where females are paid quite a lot more than males. Same with feminism and page 3, they say that pictures of topless women are exploitative but not a fricking peep about the topless diet coke fella. It's usually those crying out for equality that don't have a clue what the word means.

    1. Craigness

      Re: Sigh, one subject that drives me ...

      When people think they're referring to the difference in salary (often "for the same job"), what they are actually comparing is average earnings of full time employees. If you look at the average hours worked by full time employees (in the US it's those working 35 or more hours per week) you'll see that men work a lot more than women do. When you compare relevant experience, education, type of jobs done and other life choices which affect pay, you'll find that the only wage gap is in those under 30 (more likely, those who have not had children) where women earn more than men. Whether you think this is an issue or not, the fact is that nothing will be done about it because the official line is the feminist idea that women are oppressed.

    2. Marvin O'Gravel Balloon Face

      Re: Sigh, one subject that drives me ...

      Speaking as a one-legged Chinese lesbian of restricted height I'd have to say I agree.

      Actually, whenever presented with that part of the form, I always write "prefer not to say".

      1. Tom 13

        Re: I always write "prefer not to say"

        Which the EEO types translate to WASP - male when they get the form and enter the information into their database.

        1. MondoMan

          Re: I always write "prefer not to say"

          There's always "other - human" or "to Mars" or "Rapid Amplification of cDNA Ends".

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: I always write "prefer not to say"

            I always put down African - I believe my family came from Olduvai Gorge originally

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: one legged Chinese, lesbian of restricted height

        You sound ideal for a video I've been wanting to cast. Get in touch

    3. TrishaD
      Facepalm

      Re: Sigh, one subject that drives me ...

      "At the same time you see complaints, for example, about the difference in salary between men and women, and that it needs to be adjusted, but they never refer to the porn industry where females are paid quite a lot more than males"

      Oh well, that's alright then. Nothing to worry about, eh?

      I await the inevitable downvotes from other smug white males.

      1. Eradicate all BB entrants

        Re: Sigh, one subject that drives me ...

        At what point did I say that the fact there are some industries that have females on higher wages than males negated the issue of wage discrepancy? My statement, which you have so conveniently avoided in order to take a sentence out of context, was that equality should be about equality. If you want to balance the wage differential between males and females it has to be carried out across the entirety of industry.

        I never downvote so you don't have to worry, as nothing in my previous post or this one was classed as smug. In fact the only person on this thread being smug is yourself, seeing as you think that any downvotes of your rather poor attempt at a rebuttal will cement your belief that all white males are racist/sexist/misogynistic.

        1. TrishaD

          Re: Sigh, one subject that drives me ...

          "At what point did I say that the fact there are some industries that have females on higher wages than males negated the issue of wage discrepancy? My statement, which you have so conveniently avoided in order to take a sentence out of context, was that equality should be about equality"

          If that was indeed the point that you were attempting to make, then use of the porn industry was a lazy example - it's an exceptional situation and using it rather casts a doubt on your attitude here. Hence my remark.

          In a forum you're going to get judged by what you say rather than what you dont say or leave out. Unfortunate but there you go...

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Let's apply this quota to Sports LEagues

    This is not an original thought, but let apply these sorts of quota to professional footbal and basketball. There would be much weeping an gnashing of teeth. Oh, by the way, can we please make a distinction between south (Paki, Indian, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan), southeast (vietnam, laos, cambodia, thailand, indonesian, malaysian), and east (china, korea, japan) asian.

    1. James O'Shea

      Re: Let's apply this quota to Sports LEagues

      Where do the Filipinos show up on your scale? Lots and lots and lots of them... And the Burmese (or whatever the name is, officially, now)? And is Taiwan under 'China' or listed separately? (Good luck specifying _that_ one without large numbers of someones getting angry with you no matter what you pick...)

      As for pro sports... baseball is dominated by Latins. Cubans. Dominicans. Venezuelans. Colombians. And the number of Japanese and other east Asians are growing. Blacks are losing ground in baseball.

      In Yanqui Feetball, QBs and offensive line are mostly white boys, with some Latins and a few blacks. Defensive line is mostly black. DBs, blacks and Latins. Receivers... it used to be mostly black, but the white boys who show up are very very good indeed and get paid accordingly, so that affects the average beyond the mere numbers. RBs, mostly black.

      In Real Feetball, there isn't enough of a sample group to draw conclusions. (See further taking three tries to being able to beat _Ghana_ in the World Cup...)

      Basketball is nearly completely black; the prominent white boys tend to be furriners. (Canadian. Argentinian...)

      Hockey... nearly 100% white (and mostly furriners, Rooskies and Canadian and similar lesser breeds, mostly)

      Lacrosse... nearly 100% white. (Yes, Lacrosse. The Florida Launch play just down the road from where I live...)

    2. GBE

      Re: Let's apply this quota to Sports Leagues

      Definitely.

      I've noticed that overweight, out-of-shape, 50-something men who can't throw a baseball are drastically under-represented in major league professional baseball. I demand this disparity be addressed immediately.

      I'll be waiting with bated breath for my contract offer to arrive in my mailbox.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Meh

    Not very surprising stats

    Lots of women in non-tech roles like marketing (yay!), sales and HR. Very few in software development, engineering and datacenter operations.

    I'm all for getting more women into the technical side of the business, but if that was easy, it would have been done long ago.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. xerocred

        Re: Not very surprising stats

        @arnaut. The girls are moving away from tech (in many countries) before they even get to meet your men with attitudes in the workplace. So its not the men.

        Only 20% of girls do A level physics.

        Yet in the arab world girls make up 50% or more in tech education.

        Go figure...

        I don't know the answer why that is but I believe most tech guys would welcome girls and be gentlemen.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Not very surprising stats

          "Yet in the arab world girls make up 50% or more in tech education."

          Have you seen how advanced the kitchen appliances are that you can buy with nearly unlimited oil revenue?

      2. Tom 13

        Re: Why did the women move out?

        Probably for the same reason men are attracted to it:

        There's no mushy gushy emotional interface. The computer does what you tell it to. Exactly what you tell it to and if it doesn't work it is your fault. You don't develop a relationship with it no matter how much the sci-fi shows try to sexualize it with their holograms and voices. For whatever reason, women are drawn to the emotional bonding. You can get that in PM and marketing, but not so much on the programming side.

      3. Tom 13

        Re: the early days women dominated programming

        not sure how you'll count circa 1980 but mine would be:

        Mr. Checkett

        Mr. Light

        Mrs. Lausch.

        Mrs. [completely forgot her name]

        who were all math teachers at the high school. Checkett and Light had lead on bringing in the TRS after comparing them with an Apple. All of them consulted with Todd B. who was one of my classmates when they got stuck. I was tutored directly by Mr. Checkett as an extra activity without credit from our Probabilities and Statistics class. My friends William and Eric each had an Apple II something and we plotted the sin a/a function on it after working on the problem in Calculus class. Mrs and Mrs told us there was no way to port a disk program [centipede clone] that they ran on the master computer in the classroom to the terminals attached to it. That didn't sound right to us so we got out the manual and were soon all happily playing it on the terminals.

        When I got to college and took the intro course it was taught by a woman whose name I have also forgotten. Her I liked a bit more than either of the Mrs listed above. I didn't pursue my initial interest any further because she was honest with me. The next class was a weed out class. It wasn't intended to teach you, it was intended to drive away 5 out of the 6 people who thought they wanted to enter the field.

      4. busycoder99

        Re: Not very surprising stats

        @ Arnaut the less

        Use an arbitrary timeline and non-verifiable claims - check.

        Anecdotal evidence - check.

        Blame the men - check.

        Throw some mushy feely words in there - check.

        Congratulations, you have earned your first feminist badge! You can do it!

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not very surprising stats

        @Arnaut,

        I think you're really reaching on that conclusion. My mother was quite the mainframe programmer back in the day, and I heard her complain about things at work, but it was all badly written code, aging systems, budget drama-- never about "the boys" getting out of control.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not very surprising stats

      In my limited experience, you either want to be a techie or you don't. Many techies do not want to be techies, they want to manage projects, be business analysts - all related to IT, but not actually doing hands-on work. They are not "on a technical track".

      Most of the women I've worked with have happily accelerated through the techie phase, and now are doing PM style tasks. That's their choice, it pays well, and they're a lot better at it than I ever will be. You cannot force people to work in software engineering.

  6. jesterscup

    Credit where credit is due

    Even if potentially under represented, Yahoo! at least accepts the fact that there are those out there with non-binary gender identifications. Simply the fact that they are reporting that is a clear move in the right direction.............

    1. TrishaD

      Re: Credit where credit is due

      The problem with measuring representation of those with non-binary gender identifications is that they/we constitute such a small minority that we dont even register statistically.

      Anecdotally we seem to do pretty well in IT in general terms but that's as far as I'd go.

  7. Mick Russom

    Marissa the Vile

    Marissa is a vile dictator. She is worth tons of money, she uses a goofy demeanor to hide her evil nasty business ways, she lies and is a hypocrite she disallows telecommuting but puts a nursery in her office so she can live at work.

    I dont get why treating people badly and being a chainsaw / mean person like her gives her a constant free pass.

  8. Gis Bun

    Hmmmm....

    A "woman" running Yahoo - 85% male. Maybe she isn't so straight. :-)

  9. Bucky 2

    I'm not really seeing how these statistics have been appropriately normalized (for example: x people of category y hired per 1000 candidates of category y candidates who applied).

    I'd also need to see variables controlled for with regard to what makes a "qualified" candidate (for example, remove race and gender data from a resume, and then evaluate each of these as "qualified" or "unqualified" based on a blind analysis).

    Plunking numbers down without controlling for external variables is, after all, irresponsible.

  10. Rottenham

    Yet Another Pitch?

    That's a big "So What?"

    Is this another pitch to see women as victims? Are we supposed to believe that qualified women are being prevented from filling these jobs by oppressive men? I pass.

  11. dan1980

    'Positive' discrimination is a smokescreen.

    The very nature of discrimination means that one individual or group will be favoured and the other individual or groups will not be favoured. in other words, for every act of positive discrimination, there is an equal measure of negative discrimination. It cannot be any other way.

    No matter the rhetoric, quotas are also negative discrimination.

    After all, if you say there is a quota of 30% female employees then there is BY DEFINITION, a limit of 70% on male employees*. Likewise race.

    There are SO many factors contributing to the racial and gender representations in all different areas of life. In the workforce it includes the fact that African Americans are, statistically, poorer and less educated than white and Asian Americans. Now, that may have its roots in the decades of slavery and repression and racism and neglect but it is still a statistically relevant factor when considering the 'representation' of African Americans in a given industry today.

    The point is that representation in employment is the end of a long chain of events and the real work needs to go on improving the earlier links - like education. Focusing on the last bit is very much a case of putting the cart before the horse.

    It's an attractive option, however, because it neatly avoids having to deal with any real problems. Far easier to just assume that bosses are racist than that public education funding is falling well behind what is needed - especially in those communities that need it most.

    * - For simplicity, let's keep it to sex, rather than gender distinctions.

    1. TrishaD

      @Dan1980

      "The point is that representation in employment is the end of a long chain of events and the real work needs to go on improving the earlier links - like education. Focusing on the last bit is very much a case of putting the cart before the horse."

      I'm inclined to agree. Measurement of the end result can be useful however. If nothing else, it allows you to do some comparative work..

      In the case of the Yahoo results, what struck me was how very low the percentage of black and hispanic technical workers was, in comparison with, for exampe, Visa (a former employer of mine). 10 years ago in their West Coast offices, those percentages were far higher, which would indicate one of two things - either that young black and hispanic kids are not leaving school with the right skills, or that Yahoo arent very good

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    In a capitalist society, careers tend to be somewhat meritocratic. If white and Asian men excel at tech roles, then you'll see them overrepresented in those roles in every company, as we do. It doesn't mean there's discrimination. It could just mean that they're better at those roles and actively pursue them, where other groups do not.

  13. Andrew Torrance

    Once we have equality of opportunity , ( which I believe we have) . Then quotas should rank somewhere near the company flag in how much time should be spent considering them .

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