back to article Microsoft: Pssst, small resellers, want to sling our cloud?

Microsoft is preparing to give its channel partners another way of selling Azure to their customers. The new "Open Licensing" option gives resellers and other channel partner types a way to sell a small amount of Microsoft's Azure public cloud to a customer without having to enter into an Enterprise Agreement (EA) with Redmond …

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  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

    Being a Microsoft Partner.

    As a Microsoft Partner who has seen diminishing returns of late, I would normally write an enormous rant here about this. Instead, I will link you to http://www.crn.com/news/channel-programs/240165273/microsoft-partners-in-uproar-over-cloud-sales-commission-cuts.htm. This sums up the situation quite nicely for partners; the good, the bad and the margins.

  2. SVV

    It's what you might call a limited offer....

    "designed for a 'corporate, academic, charitable, or government organization' that wants to purchase a mimimum of five software licenses through the agreement"

    Holy Moly, my organization doesn't fulfill any of those definitions! And five whole licenses!

    Most tech-savvy busineses who have identified a need for external hosting are doing just fine with web basd stuff on Linux or bigger Unix boxes these days. And the admin skills required are an in-demand skill right now. My personal experiences with Windows server based environments have varied from well realised but overcomplicated to manage to utterly dreadful. I just can't see how MS is going to be any better "in the cloud" as a server based hosting solution compared to unix type stuff as it is to self hosted stuff.

    1. Lusty

      Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

      Perhaps your experience is different to other people. My experience shows that rather than being easier to manage, Linux and Unix simply gets ignored following install, with patches rarely being applied and very little housekeeping done unless there is a problem.

      I think you're stretching the meaning of the word "most" to mean people you deal with. In the real world, Microsoft has the majority of server systems as can be clearly seen from various statistical sources. The Azure cloud is a fine example of cloud technology and will likely be the way normal companies do their IT in 5 years time, so for partners it's time to adapt or die off. Luckily my employer has chosen to adapt and our cloud services are growing rapidly, but I do feel sorry for the reseller only businesses out there who don't offer services as their slice of the pie won't be there in a few years.

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

        > Microsoft has the majority of server systems as can be clearly seen from various statistical sources.

        If you actually believe that then you are unaware of how the statistics are created.

        For example: The netcraft statistics of total web domains has been manipulated by Microsoft paying hosting sites to put their parked domains onto Windows Servers, or at least giving them machines and software to do so. This boosts the 'total domains' statistics by hundreds of thousands with no content and no traffic. Look at the 'active sites' for a more realistic view of the distribution.

        For example: The 'server market' is measured by dollar revenue. OEMs selling fully built and licenced Windows Servers dominate this statistic while in-house built Linux and BSD servers, such as those at Amazon, Google and many other large sites, or even small ones, do not show up at all. It is reputed that when Microsoft took over Skype it replaced the 50,000 supernodes out in the community with 10,000 Linux servers in-house. I bet those never showed up in the 'statistics'.

        http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/05/skype-replaces-p2p-supernodes-with-linux-boxes-hosted-by-microsoft/

        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

          Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

          Also: what's a "server"? Do virtual hosts count? Do you count a VMware host as a Server, or it's VMs, or both? If it's Microsoft, are you counting the host instance as a "server" when you're not counting an instance of ESXi?

          What about storage? Do you count an EMC array or a Netapp filer as a "server"? What about a Windows-based filer? What about each node in a Hadoop cluster? Or do you try to count the the whole cluster as a single "server" while counting each Windows filer as a "server"? (Windows filers can't scale anywhere near as large.)

          Before you go spouting off who has more "servers", I'd really like us to get a good definition of what "server" is these days.

        2. Lusty

          Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

          @Richard Plinston

          Ah yes, the all encompassing open source defence of conspiracy theory.

          @Trevor, personally I would use OSE as the definition of server these days as stated in the MS licensing docs which nicely defines running instances and would also work well with the various Nix technologies used to virtualise and otherwise split hardware.

          Even ignoring the stats, my own experience of UK companies (and I've worked with a lot, right across the spectrum of size and in pretty much all verticals) shows overwhelming favour to Windows with the exception of transactional stuff at banks/retail and web farms. Unfortunately with a lot of Reg readers being developers it's easy for them to overlook the many uses for servers in business outside of web apps

          1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

            Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

            "Even ignoring the stats, my own experience"

            Bingo.

            1. Lusty

              Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

              "Bingo."

              Not sure what you're trying to say there. The published statistics and my experience are completely in line with one another so as far as I'm concerned that's reality. By your own admission on these forums and in your articles you deal with a fairly niche market so it's expected that your experience wouldn't line up with the global statistics.

              1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

                Actually, I deal with "the mainstream market", being "the 80% of businesses" represented by SMB and SME. That, however, is neither here nor there. I made no claims in this thread whatsoever as to who has the most servers.

                What I do notice, however, is that a historically rabidly pro-Microsoft commenter has cherry picked one set of statistics to claim dominance of Microsoft across "servers", then backs it up by saying "even if the stats aren't right, my personal experience verifies them."

                What that tells me is that you are allowing your personal experience and personal preference to prejudice you. To the extent that you will cherry pick for stats you like and then hold them up as gospel. That makes absolutely anything you say unreliable, whether it coincides with my personal experience or not.

                Personally, I have no idea what the ratio of Linux to Windows is, unless I have an exact definition for server. And you can change the definition of "server" in a lot of ways to get a lot of different results. I notice that you picked one that favoured your personal preference that Microsoft be viewed as dominant.

                Me, I'd look at embedded devices serving a "server" function as well. Each node in a storage cluster would be counted. I'd count hypervisor hosts as well as guests. I'd even count routers. Anything that is a computing device but isn't actively used by an end user for input and response.

                In my personal experience, that would put Linux/Unix/BSD as the foundation for around 120x as many systems as Windows. That drops significantly to about 35x if you count client OS VDI instances as "servers" (and frankly, I do.)

                Now, how does my "personal experience" rank against the world population of servers by my definition? I am as yet unsure, in large part because a lot of embedded stuff simply isn't listed. Another part being that a lot of embedded stuff is VXWorks or QNX, which I wouldn't count as Linux/Unix/BSD, but make up a huge percentage of deployed systems.

                Moreover, I come from an Oil and Gas province with a startling number of high-end post-secondary institutions and which is a leader in nanotech; there are lots of reasons why Linux/Unix/BSD is more popular here than it might be elsewhere.

                So I simply don't have enough info to make grandiose claims about how many "servers" are Windows and how many are Linux, ever if we could ever agree on a definition. The stats I have seen, however - and I mean both locally and globally - do seem to indicate to me that by my definition there is a fuck of a lot more Linux/Unix/BSD out there than there is Windows.

                As a general rule, my experience says "systems where humans have to interact with the thing on a regular basis" are Windows and "systems that need to run for years at a time without intervention" are Linux. Windows is easier, thus it gets used for line-of-business servers that see frequent upgrades, changes, etc. Linux is harder (but way less fragile) thus gets used for things that absolutely need to work, or where the cost of rolling someone out to fix it/replace it is far higher than just doing it right in the first place.

                But again, that's my experience. And the experience of the overwhelming majority of systems administrators, CIOs and developers I've talked to. I don't believe that is the final word because, to my knowledge, nobody is actually counting every system deployed. How could they?

                What I do know is this: people I deeply respects choose both Windows and Linux/Unix/BSD for different use cases and they deploy both of these OSes where they feel the OS is best suited. In most places, my assessment of the when/when/how/why aligns with theirs.

                "Total server deployment" statistics can tell me a lot about where global money is going, but they don't tell me which OS is "better" or inform me that I should use a given OS for a given use case. In fact, "total server deployment" statistics are really only useful for penis comparison and validation of one's own preconceptions.

                What does matter to me are statistics regarding specific use cases. Here I fully expect that my local experiences will vary from the rest of the world: Alberta is not a province of inventors and innovators. We're a province that applies the knowledge and ideas of others to hauling minerals out of the ground or growing cows. We extend the work of others; we very rarely do anything radical.

                Thus if there is a big misalignment of personal experience with statistics it could indicate that others have found a good reason to change which OS they use for a given use case, and it behooves me to check it out. To be ahead of the curve locally, not behind it.

                So I return to the beginning of this post and say:

                What I do notice, however, is that a historically rabidly pro-Microsoft commenter has cherry picked one set of statistics to claim dominance of Microsoft across "servers", then backs it up by saying "even if the stats aren't right, my personal experience verifies them."

                You completed my commenttard Bingo for the day. I dobbed all the tropes on my card. More importantly, you have confirmed an opinion I've had for some time, which is that your personal prejudice is something you gleefully allow to influence your decisions, even when it comes to something as simple as selection of relevant and useful data sources upon which to base decisions!

                My primary experience is certainly niche - though that is growing in diversity rather rapidly - but I don't generally say "my experience should be the basis of all decision making for all use cases." If I have a grouse with a company then I state what the grouse is and why I have it; if the grouse is "just my experience" I usually say "run your own tests to make sure."

                If the grouse is something more endemic, like "how a company treats is customers/partners/etc" then I will give direct examples of what I believe bad behavior to be. Some times I'll relate an experience; this is usually followed by an invitation for others to share like experiences, that we me broaden and deepen the data available beyond just my own woes.

                With the exception of an expectation that companies treat customers fairly and as reasonably, it has been a heck of a long time since I've said "one X to rule them all." IT is huge. It's bigger than the number of people on this planet! IT has become so diverse that it represents not only every facet of how every person and company chooses to do something, it now adapts to the needs of machine learning and evolution!

                Anyone, anywhere who thinks that a statistics like "OS deployed on the majority of servers" means a goddamend thing is a fucking idiot. Anyone who claims they even have a means of tracking that today is a close second. You cannot even say "this is the best OS for storage/networking/cloud/virtualization/embedded/etc" because the major categories are so breathtakingly huge that diversity of requirements and use cases renders any attempts at broad generalization moot.

                Your experience means fuck all, and so to you. My experience means fuck all, and so do I. The universe is so vast, and we are so small. The best we can do is deal with the individual use cases in front of us one at a time, and make the best decisions possible with the data we have to hand.

                ...and to guard against our own prejudices and preconceptions, lest they blind us to better options when attempting to navigate the most rapidly changing field of human endeavor ever undertaken.

                1. Lusty

                  Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

                  I was actually referring to your previous reference to you dealing with fairly unique verticals, but smashing rant nonetheless. I'm not really pro Microsoft, I work for a Gold partner but we're also a Red Hat partner as a result of my pushing for us to become one to meet a demand and I use Mac and Linux at home. Linux has a place, as do most systems, and it's excellent at what it does. Many of our Linux customers still integrate it with AD though for security reasons since almost everyone has an AD domain.

                  I didn't actually quote any statistics specifically so not sure how I'm cherry picking. Again, nice rant though :)

                  I should point out, I'm actually not your nemesis - I think a lot of what you say is useful and clever, and my earlier reference to you was only to respond with a useful definition of a "server". The MS one actually is very good if you care to read it. I'm not aware of anyone else even trying to define in clear terms what a running system is but if you care to offer one the industry uses I'm happy to read it.

                  1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                    Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

                    I've read the MS definition, but I think it's far to 2006. This is the era of the internet of things. I have 100,000 pipeline sensors all with local cache that core dump their readings whenever they can get a clear signal. As I read it, they wouldn't be a "server" by the MS standards, yet from a practical standpoint I have to treat (and defend) them as such.

                    For that matter, I have dozens of client OS instances serving as "servers" because there's nothing in the license that says I need CALs to use Windows 7 as a "server" if the server software in question is third party. (Filezilla, etc.) These would be considered "servers" by Microsoft, though they aren't licensed as such.

                    There are no good industry definitions that match the reality of IT today. Maybe there can never be, given how fast IT evolves. Maybe that's even a good thing, as it prevents us from engaging in the irrelevant penis-comparison with any seriousness unless we're actually outright mad.

                    Worse, global statistics are functionally impossible to find that could be anywhere close to valid. The netcraft statistics are known to be bullshit. I suspect all the others are too. Stepping away from "what is a server" let's just ask the question "how do you track deployments and installs?" Let me expand that by asking "how do you track deployment and installs in a world where not only are an exploding number of IoT sensors "servers" but many/most servers are ephemeral, spun up and down on a whim according to the dictates of a monitoring app or sensor somewhere?"

                    Hence my rubbishing and hatred of any attempt to talk about "most servers" or other global deployment generalizations. It's like trying to say "most grains of sand in the world are composed of X". Sand is bloody diverse, with deposits near oceans having far more calcium carbonate, deposits inland frequently being silicon dioxide rich and deposits all over the place containing various bits of ground of lava. (My fish really like the ground lava sand.)

                    Also, for the record, you do very much come across as a huge redmondian fanboy. I'm down with that - Microsoft is still a huge part of my income - but I get quite a bit testy when I see Yet Another Tired Thread where a staunch defender of the Empire trots out the tired netcraft fallacy and waves it around like it means something.

                    Personally, I don't care who wins. With the sole exception of Ninite (may a thousand excellent vaginas find their way to the developers' groins) I hate and distrust everyone pretty much equally. I have some personal preferences regarding the systems I personally administer, but "fitness for purpose" and "affordable" trump "curses per timeframe" unless the costs and fitness are very, very close.

                    It does however bear some thought that you have embedded yourself in my memory as the Microsoft equivalent of "that guy who always says you should just try Linux." You're nowhere near Vogon-the-Anonymous-Coward" levels of "I want to stab them in the face with a rotting penguin", but enough that over time you've moved quite far out of the range of "impartial nerds" on my list of Reg commenttards.

                    Anyways, I'm grumpy and have a conference call. Webex hold music the ENTER YOUR MEETING ID AND PRESS POUND ::madness::

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

          ". It is reputed that when Microsoft took over Skype it replaced the 50,000 supernodes out in the community with 10,000 Linux servers in-house."

          Only because that was a design change to improve stability, performance and scalability over using clients as supernodes that had been planned and tested by Skype for a long time before Microsoft purchased them. Microsoft has since pretty rapidly migrated those nodes to Windows Server on Azure: http://www.hardwareluxx.com/index.php/news/software/software/29101-microsoft-migrates-skype-to-azure-cloud-.html

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It's what you might call a limited offer....

      "Most tech-savvy busineses who have identified a need for external hosting are doing just fine with web based stuff on Linux or bigger Unix boxes these days"

      No - no they are not unless it's JUST a website. The vast majority still run some flavour of Windows and Microsoft stack. Especially for email and office apps. You do get a few mostly very small outfits running Borg Apps, but the tiny savings from Google's spyware are not worth it imo for the vastly inferior product and the privacy compromises.

      "My personal experiences with Windows server based environments have varied from well realised but overcomplicated to manage to utterly dreadful."

      Your boss should hire someone competent then.

      "I just can't see how MS is going to be any better "in the cloud" as a server based hosting solution compared to unix type stuff as it is to self hosted stuff."

      Well at the moment it scales better than say KVM, it costs less to run (Hyper-V Server is completely free with all features included - just look at the cost of running say KVM on Redhat!), and is far far easy to manage, work with, automate, integrate, has a much better feature set, has more advanced security and SDN features, etc, etc.

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